I'll never forget Bob Cousy talking about Shelton Jones in his rookie year: "Look at this guy, four years at a major college program and he has no skills whatsoever." It's not all AAU's fault.
Kobe Bryant - scathing article
- Thread starter ivanvamp
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Young on Kobe: "He has no filter. He just talks and talks and talks." Lin: "That's ironic." Young: "What?" Lin: "Nothing. Keep going."
— Arash Markazi (@ArashMarkazi) January 7, 2015
— Arash Markazi (@ArashMarkazi) January 7, 2015
Perhaps this means they will trade Hill / Lin / Ellington now and do what they need to do to ensure they get their pick. Sure is a waste of $20M+.
I hate coaches that zone in summer.GeorgeCostanza said:
Too many coaches want to win at young ages rather than teach. The easiest way to win is to find guys that can dribble and get in the key. There are a lot more players under 6-6 than over. The other thing you need is athletes to defend and board. To win other than one or two guys the rest only need to score one way finish around the hole or on the break, spot shooter.
The trade off is the skill at dribbling is better than in the past. Defense is infinitely better especially on the ball. Kids are just as tough as ever too.
But the refined skills are for shit now. Few kids can pull up. Fucking coaches have 12 year old shooting 3s because they want to spread it out. Big Kids focus on defending the ball screen catch and finish. If they do get the ball with their back to the hoop they are taught to pass to the cutter before they learn to make a move. Many coaches run 5 guy spreads to make room for penetration.
A big part of the O is transition since if you are the better team on the ball and can stop the other team from penetrating you can turn it over and run. It is very difficult to win if you cannot penetrate or conversely stop the ball. So I can see why guys coaching neglect secondary skills for uptempo o, dribbling and d.
This kind of ball is really effective though. A big kid that can dunk and hit 3s is more valuable than a big guy with a shit load of post moves, if you have the guards to use his ballscreen. And if course finding those guards is easier than finding him and teaching him to play.
Anyway Kobe is right there are appalling holes in kids games, but the corresponding increase in defensive ability and dribbling create a style of game that is really tough to beat. The dribble and kick/defend and run style places a premium athleticism. Who can argue the athleticism in the NBA is better than ever? It is almost like the NFL. Maybe at one time linebackers played the whole game and performed a wider variety of skills, but today's guys are much bigger and faster and many of the old time tough guy linebackers of NFL films lore would be too slow or small to get on the field to day.In his bio Bill Russell said he envisioned a day when all players in the NBA played above the rim and the game would be more like hockey, more fluid, and the 7 footer, the guy that played with his back to the basket would be obsolete. We are close to that.
Seasons over
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/12217628/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-season-torn-rotator-cuff
Probably time to hang up the sneakers
And excellent post Reggie. My playing days are getting close to being 20 years ago (D3 HS then 1 year of D3 college). The game has certainly evolved, some skills vastly improving others trending downward. I was a 5'9 point guard so I can't say I'm lamenting the end of the big man, but watching someone like Duncan play, even at his advanced age is a thing of beauty.
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/12217628/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-season-torn-rotator-cuff
Probably time to hang up the sneakers
And excellent post Reggie. My playing days are getting close to being 20 years ago (D3 HS then 1 year of D3 college). The game has certainly evolved, some skills vastly improving others trending downward. I was a 5'9 point guard so I can't say I'm lamenting the end of the big man, but watching someone like Duncan play, even at his advanced age is a thing of beauty.
It's a testament to his health mostly. He played 280 more games than Kobe has.Kliq said:
Jabbar was much more efficient, but Kobe has averaged more PPG over his 19 years than Jabbar did over his 20, it came down to Jabbar being a freak who averaged 78 games a year to Kobe's 67 (Kobe missed more than half this year, all but 6 last year and had the lockout shortened season) if you take out those 3 he was generally considered a very health player, but averaged less than 74 games a year.
KAJ played basically every night for 20 years.
Well, Kareem has the record because A) He was an extremley good player and B) He played at a high level for an extremely long period of time. He was Finals MVP 15 seasons apart! There have been better pure scorers than Kareem (Wilt, Jordan, Ice) but nobody had his longevity. Yes Kobe had a higher PPG career average, and Kareem played more games, but the career points record is actually more of a testment to longevity than actual scoring ability. Especially when you consider Kobe's modern advantages, with Kareem having to cram his 7'4" frame into coach every time he traveled.Cellar-Door said:
Part of it is the increased, fitness athleticism, strength demands. Kareem did Yoga, and did not lift much. Kobe is notorious/renowned for his workouts. There are many stories of him taking 500 shots and then lifting weights from 4-7am game day.Like Steve Nash the intense workout schedule ultimately is a facor in the end of the career. Also miles on your body at younger ages is far more damaging. Young basketball guys do not have a equivalent of a pitch count.
Kareem despit being a center was a finesse scorer. The skyhook is the NBA equivalent of Mo's cutter. The only way to stop it was to get on left shoulder, then if he was deep just turned the other way and one hand dunked it, if he was off the lane most of his career he could spin away. Once he lost just enough quickness the spin was deensible he became the 14, then 10 point a game tragic figure at the end.
Magic gets all the credit for the 80s Lakers, but I would argue Kareem was the better player for most of it. During the Lakers Celtics years if the game was slowed down the Cs won, if the tempo got going the Lakers won usually in a blow out. But the Lakers won some half court battles because they still had the at least until 85 or so the best half court scorer in the game. The fact Kareem could jog down, or lets be honest not even cross half on the fast break if there was quick score extended his career. But once he hauled his butt down the floor he usually got the ball.
Lastly of course he was a once in lifetime freak. I feel he spoiled things for Sampson, and Yao, and any other guy well over 7. The guys that physically dominated went from 6-10 Mika to 7-0 Wilt to 7-2 Kareem. The logical step seemed to be the next dominant guy will be even bigger. Of Course he was the point of no return, and no guy of that size before or since has been so good. (I would argue Shaq at least presents a possibility or an equivalent to Wilt).
Kareem despit being a center was a finesse scorer. The skyhook is the NBA equivalent of Mo's cutter. The only way to stop it was to get on left shoulder, then if he was deep just turned the other way and one hand dunked it, if he was off the lane most of his career he could spin away. Once he lost just enough quickness the spin was deensible he became the 14, then 10 point a game tragic figure at the end.
Magic gets all the credit for the 80s Lakers, but I would argue Kareem was the better player for most of it. During the Lakers Celtics years if the game was slowed down the Cs won, if the tempo got going the Lakers won usually in a blow out. But the Lakers won some half court battles because they still had the at least until 85 or so the best half court scorer in the game. The fact Kareem could jog down, or lets be honest not even cross half on the fast break if there was quick score extended his career. But once he hauled his butt down the floor he usually got the ball.
Lastly of course he was a once in lifetime freak. I feel he spoiled things for Sampson, and Yao, and any other guy well over 7. The guys that physically dominated went from 6-10 Mika to 7-0 Wilt to 7-2 Kareem. The logical step seemed to be the next dominant guy will be even bigger. Of Course he was the point of no return, and no guy of that size before or since has been so good. (I would argue Shaq at least presents a possibility or an equivalent to Wilt).
reggiecleveland said:
A few things: The difference between fitness regiments is a good point, but I think you are being unfair in calling Kareem a finesse player, and that he didn't take the physical beating that Kobe did. While he was a scorer and not really a banger and a rebounder, he was hammered in the paint during his career. Because he was taller than everybody else and he was so much better than everybody else from the start of his career, referees let opposing Centers KILL Kareem in the post. Guys like Cowens relished in pounding Kareem, who was unfairly labeled as soft, and referees treated him differently than everyone else, like the way they judged Shaq, but Kareem didn't have the physical girth of Shaq. Bangers like Cowens, Moses, Hakeem, Unseld and Reed pounded Kareem and played dirty. It got so bad that he had to wear googles to protect his eyes from getting gouged out in the paint.
Kareem was good because he was tall, but I feel like he was less physically dominant than guys like Mikan, Wilt and Shaq. Kareem had the perfect body for the skyhook, but he would have been just as dominant in 2015 as he was in 1974, which is something you can't really say about Mikan and Wilt. Kareem was also surely not 7'2", he was more like 7'4".
I wonder how many hoops fans know the reason Kareem developed the sky hook and the Chief developed the rainbow jumper. Twas due to the dunking ban in college basketball from 67-76. Seems amazing now. Dunking wasn't allowed in Ct. HS ball in the early 80's. Harold Pressley dunked on our team by accident in a state championship game in 1981 and had a tech called on him.
I don't think it is necessarily settled that Kobe won't get to Malone or KAJ. If Kobe was willing to play off the bench and score 10-12 a night in 20 minutes, he might last until he is in his early 40s, or 5 or 6 more years. It all comes down to whether or not it is worth it to Kobe to not be the A player on the Lakers and only make $6-10M. Based on the last few years, I think he might hang it up.
I never said Kareem wasn't tough. Finesse and toughness are mot opposites. (KG is finesse score, mostly jumpers, actually Daryl Dawkins was mostly a jumpshooter too) But he was finessse scorer. The dirty play talk is by Kliq is exagerated. Most hoop historians say Wilt in the early days took a much worse beating. Wilt also had a patholical refusal to fight back. Kareem did not.He did take a beating, Only an over the top LAker fan would say he didn't get calls, especially in the show time era. The Pistons would like thew title a shitty call putting Kareem on the line cost them. But he could score without a lot of wear and tear on his legs. Kobe may take 6 or more dribles and 20 steps for a hoop. Kareem rarely took more than one. And jumping off one leg in a smooth take off and less instantaneous torque than exploding off two feet.
Since I mentioned the showtime years your anecdotes about his time as a Buck really showed me. In the Magic era Kareem got a lot of calls. To this day the NBA allows guys to push people out. The absurdity of this reffing came to a head with Shaq . He was immovable and in the way they reffed he could push back and dunk every time. Kareem is not alone, every one got pushed out, it was the way the game has been played. Had he spent the time Kobe did in the weight room he could have gained 30lb and changed it. But, then he would have lasted five fewer years. You can find stories from Lambier that he got away with way worse against Parish than Kareem. Cowens will say KAJ was a pussy that moaned to the refs when playing against guys with 5% of his talent. Both are the skewed personal views, with a grain of truth.
Edit: Don't get the argumenmt. You ere offended by the characteriartion of AbJab as finess player then document how egregiously he was pushed around. Which is i?
Edit: Don't get the argumenmt. You ere offended by the characteriartion of AbJab as finess player then document how egregiously he was pushed around. Which is i?
reggiecleveland said:
Yep, he pretty much couldn't be called for an offensive foul, which made him virtually unstoppable on offense without a tough double team.
Once Shaq was interviewed and saif Russell could not guard him because he was too light. Shaq was lambasted in the press, Bill (much later) said if Wilt had been allowed to back him down like Shaq was doing at the time he would not have been able to stop him. The refs usually don't call a push if it is gradual or smooth, but Shaq could casuall move even two guys anywhere he wanted.The NBA does a better job now on the post calls, but it is still a wrestling match.
I was once stood beside Joe Klein. I swear ass was a wide as my shoulers. The ball of his elbows sere easily the size of baseballs. A guy I know ran into a pick where Klein was stationary and broke his nose. But when Klein played against Shaq he looked like he was on roller skates.
I was once stood beside Joe Klein. I swear ass was a wide as my shoulers. The ball of his elbows sere easily the size of baseballs. A guy I know ran into a pick where Klein was stationary and broke his nose. But when Klein played against Shaq he looked like he was on roller skates.
reggiecleveland said:
I don't like playing you said/I said, but we were originally talking about the respective physical toll that both Kobe and Kareem took during their career. You implied that Kareem took less of a physical toll BECAUSE he was a finesse scorer and wasn't banging through guys to get his points, while I argued that even Kareem relied on the skyhook, he still took a significant physical beating because smaller, aggressive centers would push him around with refs swallowing the whistle. The fact that it happened more at the beginning of his career than the end of his career is irrelevent, it is still mileage on his body, and you could make the same arguement for Kobe turning into more of a jumpshooter and developing fadeaways and creative pull-up jumpers to save his body from extra wear and tear towards the end of his career. And the game was much, much more physical in 1986 than in 2015, even if Kareem got a lot of calls.
Kliq said:
No I didn't I said he could score with minimum of steps, and with few explosive two foot take offs, and that he did not lift weights as rabidly or intensely as Kobe. It was about mileage on his legs. You did not read what I said and responded emotionally to the term "finesse." Also late in his career he often didn't cross half, again fewer steps.
Generally great players careers usually end two ways. 1. An injury, perhaps two from a single incident significantly reduces effectiveness become chronic, and slowly or quickly erodes ability. Grant Hill, Bird's back, Walton's feet, Orr's knee, etc. 2. The joints wear out from the repetitive pounding, overuse. Often this can be series of problems, ankles, knees, back etc. In basketball this is usually the legs, though with advent of weight raining, and with guys that take hundreds of shots a day we are getting shoulders.
Kareem avoided #1, and his style helped him delay #2. Kobe has both problems and if not for his drive and money on the table should be finished.
There is something to be said for avoiding collisions. in the 80s announcers often called out guys that ran out of bounds. Now I think it is accepted to put your head down and get hit for negligible gain is dumb. If you look a vids of KAJ against Wilt he wildly attacks the rim and dunks on Wilt. He has admitted he did that because he had to, (i think there is a youtube clip of Wilt blocking a skyhook) and at the time Wilt pissed him off. He has also said it was not the best way for him to play, since at that stage the only advantage Wilt had was strength, and the risk of injury was high.
Perhaps your reaction to "finesse" was in response to the unfair criticism directed at Kareem that he didn't always do those things. But even late in his career I remember when they really needed a hoop him turning the corner and dunking all over the Chief and McHale. He was ahead of his time in understanding looking after your self. Jordan for all his fire was good at it too.
Since this is at root a Red Sox board i will say I wish Pedroia was as smart about looking after his body as Kareem was.
I think Magic gets far too much credit for the 80s Lakers. the fact the Sixers laid down while Kareem was hurt, has created a false narrative that Magic was the best player from day 1.
Anyway to get this thread back on track. Kareem was reportedly an immense asshole and so despised nobody except a high school team would allow him to coach.
I've had a theory for a couple years now that Kareem has Asperger's. He's a very intelligent but very socially awkward guy.
By his own admission:Spacemans Bong said:
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/news/kareem-things-i-wish-i-knew
I can relate because I'm an introvert and, for me, going to a bar with a group of friends, social functions, even playing golf with somebody I don't know, is akin to hard work and is not a pleasant activity. It simply amazes me how somebody like Kareem or Greinke can even function in such a high pressure enviroment.
I can relate too as I am painfully shy when it comes to social interactions. However put a guitar or basketball in my hands and it doesn't matter how many people I'm surrounded by. I'm perfectly at ease. The human condition is a funny thing that way.
Explains a lot why he and Wilt didn't get along. Wilt probably cared more about the crowd than he should have. When you read the accounts of how they met when Kareem was young Wilt tried to take Kareem out on the town, and go places and be seen.
