LeBron vs. Bird / '14 Heat vs '86 Celtics.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 8, 2014

Just to play it out...

If I were the Heat I'd probably use Lebron on McHale, Bosh on Parish, and Battier on Bird in crunch time. Those aren't horrible matchups for the Heat; problem is, McHale would foul Lebron out in about 20 minutes of play, so you'd need to be tactical about using that alignment. I also suspect Bird would score a whole lot of points off of Battier at this point in his career (though Battier is not dissimilar skill-wise to guys like Cooper and Pressey who defended Bird solidly).

So, let's call it 10 minutes a game Heat try that matchup. 15 minutes they go with Bosh on McHale (and have their best offensive group out there). And perhaps 10 they go with Haslem. It's not the end of the world for Miami, but it isn't a good matchup any of those times, it compels them to play Haslem a bunch and play away from their offensive strength, and it causes foul problems with the guys they need offensively. It'd be a big storyline and the inability to match up with Celtics front line feels like a huge problem to me. Lebron would have Jordan-esque numbers, but all other matchups are good one for C's defensively. I just don't see how this one isn't a C's win.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 8, 2014

Mugthis said:
And the Celtics have no one to guard LeBron one-on-one or Wade one-on-one. Nor do they have any idea how to stop the Heat's style of 3-point emphasis offense. You then say the Celtics, if they were around today, would adapt to become better at 3's on both offense and defense. True. But the Heat if they had to could be better in the post, by roster construction, lineups, emphasis in practice, etc. You can't just assume that the physically stronger Heat players would have no chance at defending the post while the Celtics would be okay with the Heat style of play.

Would McHale still dominate? Of course he would. He's one of the greatest post-up players ever. He dominated nearly everyone in the post, and the Celtics still occasionally lost. But 1) everyone is getting a little overboard with McHale...the guy averaged 21.7 points per 36 minutes in '86. Bosh was at 18.2 this year. McHale's TS% was .617 compared to Bosh's .597. So, yes, McHale is clearly better, but it's not like we're talking about prime Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, etc. here.

Obviously there's no way to prove this, but my argument is that the Heat would suffer in the post, but to a less than the Celtics would suffer with LeBron/Wade+tons of three point shooters. The Celtics don't have the training and speed needed to keep up with Heat. They couldn't close out fast enough and the Heat would rain down threes all game long. I would take that over McHale in the post and Bird being guarded by LeBron.

(All that said, I'm getting less and less confident with my argument, especially compared this year's Heat team to that specific '86 Celtics team.)

How do you figure Ainge and DJ couldn't guard Wade when the Spurs are getting away with Marco Belinelli on him? I think that's preposterous. Wade today is just not close to a matchup problem for that Celtics team...he is limited and they had above-average defensive guards.

I think once you have to suggest the Heat would build a different roster you are seeing why this is not a series the Heat can win.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 8, 2014

Mugthis said:
Unstoppable McHale, who averaged 21.7 per 36 on .617 TS%, is a nightmare for the Heat. Old banged up Wade, who averaged 20.8 per 36 on .588 TS%, would not present a matchup problem for the Celtics.

Right.

Serious question: how much did you watch the 86 Celtics or the 2014 Heat? I ask because there is absolutely no comparison in the offensive skills of those two players at those two specific points in their careers.

Matchup problems are about matchups...and as noted, the Celtics actually have two guys who play good defense and can match up with Wade. The Heat do not have that with McHale, as several have noted. That is the problem here---it's not a question of who was the better player overall in their careers or anything like that.

On top of that reality, Wade is nowhere near his old self, but he looks good on efficiency metrics because he gets a ton of open looks, and often benefits from a team's second-best wing defender, and can still shot. But let's not go overboard-- McHale was a dominant offensive weapon who teams doubled and game-planned around even on a squad with Larry Bird; this year's Wade is a secondary player who struggles when he isn't surfing off of Lebron.

Vintage Wade is a spectacular offensive weapon who was at least as dangerous than McHale in his prime. But that guy does not exist on the 2014 Heat; the version that does is nowhere near the matchup problem that McHale is. Lebron is a huge matchup challenge for the 86 Celts, but Wade simply is not.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 8, 2014

wutang112878 said:
Its going to be an incredible match-up because it will really come down to 'who can impose their style of play onto the game' which is why I dont think there is a definitive winner. I do think the Celts would win because I am biased toward them, but I just cant believe they have no shot at competing with the Heat

Who said that the Cs had no chance of competing? I believe I posted earlier that the Cs would score more buckets but the Heat would have more points. To me, it basically has to do with the emphasis on the three-point line to which basketball has evolved.

One thing I don't think has been mentioned. When the Heat go small, they are basically looking to turn the Cs over. So yes McHale and Parish are going to be shooting incredibly high percentages. If the Heat get enough turnovers and hit enough 3s, they can still win despite that.

Of course, I'd still be rooting for Wade to break a leg and make this all moot.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 8, 2014

The guy from 1986 whose game had material similarities to Bosh, for me, is Ralph Sampson. He spent a bunch of his career trying, and largely being pushed by coaches not to, be a stretch 4. Not as mobile, and a better post player than Bosh, but some definitely similarities in what they tried to do.

Of course, Sampson's battles with coaches over playing out there emphasize how much the view of the 4 has changed since then, too.

RetractableRoof · Jun 9, 2014

Mugthis said:
Unstoppable McHale, who averaged 21.7 per 36 on .617 TS%, is a nightmare for the Heat. Old banged up Wade, who averaged 20.8 per 36 on .588 TS%, would not present a matchup problem for the Celtics.

Right.

As said above, by many posters and shown in video. McHale was unstoppable. Double and triple teams. When guarded by guys more gifted defensively than Bosh. The reason he only scored 22.6 (and .636 TS%) in the playoffs is that some guy named Bird was expecting the ball. The ball only went into McHale when they expected him to score. He didn't share well when he did get the ball... lol

Bosh is unique at his position - a big that is athletic and likes to shoot threes. But he couldn't guard McHale 1-on-1, he'd be out on fouls before the first half was over. But if you think he is comparable to McHale based on a couple of lines on a stats sheet then you don't leave much room to discuss.

As for Wade, what remains of him on the court this year doesn't approach the quality of player he was. But we aren't comparing him at his best. We are comparing what he provides this year. As others have said - this is a different discussion if we are talking without Walton (85/87). Well it is a different discussion if you want to pretend that Wade is still great - because this year, he isn't. If you want to pretend he still is - then you don't leave much room to discuss.

I don't think anyone is selling the Heat players short - in fact if anything I've heard people just totally overstate the ability of the Heat to rain 3's thinking the Celtics couldn't manage a team defense that included paying attention to 3 point shot defense. You are assuming that 26 year old Ainge couldn't stick around with the 50 year version of Ray Allen the Heat offer. You want to say that the Heat rain 3s... yet the 86 Celtics shot the 2nd highest number of 3s in the league. Hell if you want to inflate the teams actual abilities and make them mythical shooters... then Greg Freaking Kite shot .688 TS% in the playoffs and couldn't get off the bench - who is going to guard him?? lol The only way the Heat rain 3s all game is if the Celtics decided to try to completely stop Lebron. But yet the Celtics already showed against MJ that they were OK with him having his 63 as long as they win the game. So it would seem to be a reasonable thought that they would in fact defend the perimeter (if that is where the Heat tried to play) and let Lebron have his Jordan night... and force Chalmers and Cole to win the game with 3s.

I'm hard pressed to think the Heat get much by way of rebounds with the lack of height - even if the Celtics drop back some to play transition D. I've only heard one pro-Heat argument that realistically states the minutes being played by various Heat players (I do think Battier is an interesting matchup on Bird). But there is no way Bosh plays the whole game (or McHale), but then who the hell guards Walton while Bosh is in foul trouble or tired from jumping up and down all night trying to figure out which of McHales up and under moves is the actual shot? Rashard on Walton??? Haslem??? If the Heat go small, they better shoot 70% from the 3 point line because the Celtics are going to hit 75% inside the paint. As tired as the Celtics may get guarding the Heat, you don't think Lebron cramps up chasing around the Celtics passing game? The Spurs caused him to pull himself after 3/4 of chasing them around. Or does your matchup between the teams only get played in 65 degree air conditioned arenas? As I recall, Bird always liked the heat... the temperature that is.

lars10 · Jun 9, 2014

Mugthis said:
If this counts as a good point and I'm going to respond by claiming that Bosh would have hit 11 three pointers before fouling out.

I get that McHale is great and the Heat aren't well-equipped to stop him, despite mostly being heavier/stronger. But let's stop acting like he's Thor.

Can we also stop pretending that the Celtics can't play team defense? Or should we continue to pretend that the Heat invented floor spacing?

"And that would change...why? The Celtics still have a huge huge huge problem with James and an equally large problems guarding the Heat's spacing. I suspect Wade would do pretty well."

Just so I understand...why is this assumed to be correct?

Edit: this year Bosh has attempted an average of 4.1 3pointers per game and made 1.8 in the playoffs.
Edit2: Just as an aside...in virtually the same amount of minutes played over their respective seasons the Celtics scored 1000 more points... even with their deficiencies at the 3 point line.

RetractableRoof · Jun 9, 2014

Mugthis said:
If this counts as a good point and I'm going to respond by claiming that Bosh would have hit 11 three pointers before fouling out.

I get that McHale is great and the Heat aren't well-equipped to stop him, despite mostly being heavier/stronger. But let's stop acting like he's Thor.

Another poster attached a video of McHale and his interior offensive play. That was not a collection of his 1 move a week web gems. That was a sampling of his nightly bread and butter play. He only had 3 or 4 types of moves. He was successful with it against a 7-4 inch Ralph Sampson who as pointed out above provides a similar athletic build and style of play as Bosh. Sampson was joined on the court by some little known cast off named Alajuwon. Alajuwon was a specimen himself. Bigger, Faster, Stronger... he might actually have been Thor. And yet McHale scored. All we are saying is that McHale could not be guarded by Bosh, not even close at 1-on-1. No one is relying on awkward trans-era stat comparison - instead there is video proof of some of the best defenders in league history trying unsuccessfully to guard McHale. That should in fact validate that while he isn't Thor, he could beat whatever was thrown at him by Bosh and the Heat.

Show us examples in his professional career of Bosh defending / neutralizing anyone with the kind of game that McHale consistently brought. There is no one - that person hasn't existed in the league since... dare I say it? By the way, I've seen no one mention that McHale was All-NBA selection in 86, as well as first team All-Defensive - has Bosh garnered either of those designations recently?

You have video proof of McHale shredding defenders better than Bosh. You have video proof of him shredding on a consistent basis double teams and some triple teams. As stated above - teams game planned around McHale - even on a team with Larry Bird. You've offered nothing except two lines of stats about TS% and individual ORtg/DRtg to judge a team that didn't value individual statistics. Show the great Bosh video of him defending and completely embarrassing a Hall of Famer in his prime - for more than an athletic dunk or two. Bosh is a hell of a player, maybe even a Hall of Famer when he's done. But he's not even dominating a 37 year old Duncan this year - never mind the 29 year old McHale.

reggiecleveland · Jun 9, 2014

Look there is no way Ainge or Sichting or Wedman or Bird could figure out to back up a step.

RetractableRoof · Jun 9, 2014

Mugthis said:
BTW, you're really not presenting an argument here. You're picturing in your head a game and an outcome that makes you happy and describing that to us.

And you are wish casting that the current Heat flavor of the day (which isn't even as good as last years Heat flavor of the day) would be better than one of if not the best team in history because they have Lebron, are athletes, and can shoot 3's. Which no team in history has ever faced... oh except the teams that faced Jordan. You think this recipe of the Heat is unique? Best player in the league? Check. Secondary star? Check. Defensive presence to cleanup inside? Check. Supporting perimeter shooters? Check. The 86 Celtics beat that team already - ask MJ.

Funny thing is, this 2014 team doesn't beat the 85/87 Lakers either in my mind - and I hated that team.

RetractableRoof · Jun 9, 2014

reggiecleveland said:
Look there is no way Ainge or Sichting or Wedman or Bird could figure out to back up a step.

Ainge couldn't even figure out how to hit a curve...

bankshot1 · Jun 9, 2014

I think people forget that the 1984 Finals turned (other than the Rambis foul) when DJ guarded Magic, a top 5-10 guy, or the final four games. Now am I saying that DJ would shut-out LBJ, nope, but having one of the best back-court defenders EVER harassing the Heats best player, would add a huge logistical problem to a team trying to deal with the best front line ever, who could all rebound and score, and IMO would turn the Heat into a 1-shot team.
In our hypothetical Celts in 6 (max)

coremiller · Jun 9, 2014

RetractableRoof said:
And you are wish casting that the current Heat flavor of the day (which isn't even as good as last years Heat flavor of the day) would be better than one of if not the best team in history because they have Lebron, are athletes, and can shoot 3's. Which no team in history has ever faced... oh except the teams that faced Jordan. You think this recipe of the Heat is unique? Best player in the league? Check. Secondary star? Check. Defensive presence to cleanup inside? Check. Supporting perimeter shooters? Check. The 86 Celtics beat that team already - ask MJ.

Funny thing is, this 2014 team doesn't beat the 85/87 Lakers either in my mind - and I hated that team.

Are you seriously arguing with a straight face that the 2014 Heat are analogous to the 1986 Chicago Bulls?

wutang112878 · Jun 9, 2014

Mugthis said:
And the Celtics have no one to guard LeBron one-on-one or Wade one-on-one. Nor do they have any idea how to stop the Heat's style of 3-point emphasis offense. You then say the Celtics, if they were around today, would adapt to become better at 3's on both offense and defense. True. But the Heat if they had to could be better in the post, by roster construction, lineups, emphasis in practice, etc. You can't just assume that the physically stronger Heat players would have no chance at defending the post while the Celtics would be okay with the Heat style of play.

Would McHale still dominate? Of course he would. He's one of the greatest post-up players ever. He dominated nearly everyone in the post, and the Celtics still occasionally lost. But 1) everyone is getting a little overboard with McHale...the guy averaged 21.7 points per 36 minutes in '86. Bosh was at 18.2 this year. McHale's TS% was .617 compared to Bosh's .597. So, yes, McHale is clearly better, but it's not like we're talking about prime Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, etc. here.

Obviously there's no way to prove this, but my argument is that the Heat would suffer in the post, but to a less than the Celtics would suffer with LeBron/Wade+tons of three point shooters. The Celtics don't have the training and speed needed to keep up with Heat. They couldn't close out fast enough and the Heat would rain down threes all game long. I would take that over McHale in the post and Bird being guarded by LeBron.

(All that said, I'm getting less and less confident with my argument, especially compared this year's Heat team to that specific '86 Celtics team.)

One on one, they cant stop Lebron, but... Lebrons best skill is getting into the paint, the Celts have some serious depth and talent to protect the pain. Thats not going to completely nullifying him but it is going to help compensate for the fact that they dont have a defender who cant stay in front of him.

As for Wade the Celts would be in better shape because they could put DJ on him who was 6 4 and was named to the all defensive team 9 times. IIRC that was a fairly common strategy for them to mix/match the 1/2 defensive matchup and put DJ on the more challenging player. Lets also remember that Wade even from last year isnt the same carry a team to a title Wade that he was when Shaq was there.

On McHale there is a difference between him and Bosh, specifically that McHale could score on demand, Bosh is more of a kick-out jump shooter. If the Celts needed offense they could run 'drop it to McHale in the post' and he could 'create' a shot. Bosh's numbers come from others creating many of those shots for him, which is why I think McHales stats understate his value. Now in Toronto it was different, but if I'm the Heat facing the Celts with McHale, Cheif & Walton then dropping it to Bosh in the post doesnt seem like a great strategy to me.

Remember one thing on the training/speed, the Celts had superior bigs which can compensate for that. If you have 2 very good 7 footers in at all times, then your guards can cheat a little bit and guard the 3pt line more than help on penetration and the bigs can help make up for that. Thats not going to solve all of the Celts problems but they have some answers to each of the problems you brought up.

RetractableRoof · Jun 9, 2014

coremiller said:
Are you seriously arguing with a straight face that the 2014 Heat are analogous to the 1986 Chicago Bulls?

lol, eh... no. I combined two bulls teams in my head, the 1986 63 point game and the team a couple of years later that had Pippen, Grant, Oakley, etc.

But the hyperbole does match the idea that of "Bosh is going to play McHale even or McHale will only be a little bit better".

I'm going to just shake my head and be done here... lol

Bernie Carbohydrate · Jun 13, 2014

Reading this Grantland piece make me think the discussion should be '86 Celts vs. '14 Spurs. Popovich has his guys passing at so well the Heat can't adjust.

Brickowski · Jun 13, 2014

IMHO, when you talk about the mid-80's Celtics vs any other team, the first question should be, who is going to cover McHale? He would be a matchup nightmare for the Heat. The Spurs would have a better shot at covering him, but Duncan and Splitter would have to play 35+ minutes every night.

bankshot1 · Jun 13, 2014

The last two night's game has all but killed the silly secondary premise of this thread. The Spurs played an offensive game, whose philosophy was so Red-like, that the games may have been the most enjoyable non-Celtic game I seen in a very long time. The ball movement was spectacular.

'14 Spurs-'86 Celts would be the true clinic.And its possible the '14 Spurs might learn something from arguably the best passing team ever.

Celts win in a long and spectacular series.

The only match-up I'm wary of is Pop-KC.

Bernie Carbohydrate · Jun 13, 2014

bankshot1 said:
The only match-up I'm wary of is Pop-KC.

There's a Bird highlight video on you tube where KC recalls diagramming a play during a timeout of a close game and Bird basically says "Fuck that, just give me the ball."

Then Larry scores, of course.

Kliq · Jun 13, 2014

The difference in coaching is that the 86 Celtics basically coached themselves. They were a team of veterans that knew what they wanted and were perfectly in-synch with each other to win. The Spurs are slighlty different, because while Duncan, Parker and Manu are all total pros, Pop handles some of the younger players on San Anotnio perfectly, and that is the mark of a great coach on a great team. Just watch his sideline interactions with Kawhi and Green, it is phenomenal to see him work.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 13, 2014

Mugthis said:
I'm going to pretend I was talking about the Spurs the whole time. The '14 Spurs would definitely annihilate the '86 Celtics!

I noted early on this was the tougher matchup for the 1986 Celtics. I think this series has only emphasized the point that however good Miami is this year, they were not a good matchup for that Celtics team.

reggiecleveland · Jun 14, 2014

Duncan is one recent 4 that may be better than McHale. No that McHale would not give him workout.But 86 Bird was at his peak. I don't see any team without Jordan, Shaq, Lebron, Russell at their peaks beating the 86 Celtics, and I am not sure about Lebron.

wutang112878 · Jun 14, 2014

The way the Spurs have been using their crisp passing to slice apart the Heat and nullify their speed I think we can pretty confidently say that at least on offense the Celtics would have done exactly the same thing. Thus suddenly Miami's defensive advantage is pretty much gone

riboflav · Jun 15, 2014

Pretty safe to say the 2014 Heat weren't even the third best team in the NBA in... 2014.

HomeRunBaker · Jun 16, 2014

Brickowski said:
IMHO, when you talk about the mid-80's Celtics vs any other team, the first question should be, who is going to cover McHale? He would be a matchup nightmare for the Heat. The Spurs would have a better shot at covering him, but Duncan and Splitter would have to play 35+ minutes every night.

Who would cover LeBron?

This is why it's futile comparing teams from different eras. Whenever you make multiple Finals appearances and win multiple Championships......you are a great team and not a one-hit wonder (like the Mavs for example).

lars10 · Jun 18, 2014

HomeRunBaker said:
Who would cover LeBron?

This is why it's futile comparing teams from different eras. Whenever you make multiple Finals appearances and win multiple Championships......you are a great team and not a one-hit wonder (like the Mavs for example).

Except that this has been gone over ad nauseum upthread. LeBron would basically be like Jordan was vs. the C's..he could score 50, but he's not going to beat you by himself.

And the Heat may be a great team, but the Eastern conference has been almost historically weak the past three or four years, no?

Edit: also McHale wouldn't have to beat you by himself as was said upthread because Parish and Walton would create slight mismatches similar to the way Diaw, Splitter and Duncan did.

The Social Chair · Jun 19, 2014

BigSoxFan said:
I think the 90s Bulls, and mid-80's Celtics/Lakers were all better teams. And I think the late 80s Pistons would have played them incredibly tough.

I agree with this but I also have to say that the 90s Bulls never played a team as good as the 2013-14 Spurs in the finals.

Devizier · Jun 19, 2014

The Lakers, Suns, and Sonics were all legitimately great teams. For my money, no team in history was as good as the second run of the Bulls.

The Social Chair · Jun 19, 2014

Devizier said:
The Lakers, Suns, and Sonics were all legitimately great teams. For my money, no team in history was as good as the second run of the Bulls.

The 96 team was an all timer, but the 98 Bulls team was dragged to the finish line by MJ. 97 and 98 were also weak years for the NBA as a whole. The players who were drafted in the mid-80s were on their decline, the early 90s draft picks were underachievers, and the mid-90s guys (Kobe, KG, etc) were still too young.

mwonow · Jun 21, 2014

Entertaining thread, though to be fair, I'm reading it after the Finals, when the hyperbole about the Heat has been put into context.

As a final note, though - it's clear that several posters here never really watched the 1986 Celts. A comparison between Bosh and McHale is laughable - no one in their right minds would pick Bosh if they had a choice between the two.

Wade used to be a good ballplayer, but claiming that the 2014 version would have an athletic advantage over the 1986 C's backcourt is silly.

The Cs ground teams down inside that year - even the Twin Towers. Walton was HUGE (much bigger than Parish when you saw them side-by-side). They could rotate three ~7 ft guys inside (and occasionally played them together, with Bird at SG. Had DJ made the HoF, as I think he ought have, that would be 5 HoFs on the court together. Maybe the real comparison here should be with the mid-70s Habs?).

And yes to LeBron being a force, but as is noted, so was MJ in 1986, and the Cs had an answer.

I would take that 86 team against pretty well anyone - even the ones who actually WON rings! ;-}

Lastly, it should be noted that nobody who watched Bird in his prime would bet against him...check out this video from the "left handed" game mentioned above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R76nMD8buR8

PedroKsBambino · Jun 21, 2014

The Social Chair said:
The 96 team was an all timer, but the 98 Bulls team was dragged to the finish line by MJ. 97 and 98 were also weak years for the NBA as a whole. The players who were drafted in the mid-80s were on their decline, the early 90s draft picks were underachievers, and the mid-90s guys (Kobe, KG, etc) were still too young.

Agreed, it is really hard to make the case for the rest of those Bulls teams being among all-time elite. The NBA was REALLY weak at that point, as you correctly note...that has to be considered

coremiller · Jun 21, 2014

PedroKsBambino said:
Agreed, it is really hard to make the case for the rest of those Bulls teams being among all-time elite. The NBA was REALLY weak at that point, as you correctly note...that has to be considered

Sure, it was a weaker league, but the 96 Bulls utterly destroyed that weak league. They won 72 games and went 15-3 in the playoffs. The 96 team had both the best pace-adjusted offense and defense in the league and had a 12.3 points per game differential. They were totally dominant.

mwonow said:
And yes to LeBron being a force, but as is noted, so was MJ in 1986, and the Cs had an answer.

This is just silly. The 86 Bulls were a terrible team that finished 30-52. Partly that's because Jordan missed most of the season with a broken foot, but the previous year they won 38 games and the next year 40. After Jordan their starting five was Kyle Macy, Orlando Woodridge, Dave Corzine, and a rookie Charles Oakley. And that was only Jordan's second year, he had not yet become the complete player he was four or five seasons later or that James is now. That the Celtics were able to beat that team easily proves absolutely nothing about how they would fare against the Heat.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 21, 2014

coremiller said:
Sure, it was a weaker league, but the 96 Bulls utterly destroyed that weak league. They won 72 games and went 15-3 in the playoffs. The 96 team had both the best pace-adjusted offense and defense in the league and had a 12.3 points per game differential. They were totally dominant.

Agreed, my comment was about the other Bulls teams---as I acknowledged, the 96 team is clearly an all-time elite team

Nick Kaufman · May 15, 2015

I didn't know where to put this, but I just saw Skip Bayless seriously argue that 52 year old Jordan would beat Lebron James today if they played 1 on 1. The level of idiocy on this man is very strong. Or he's an excellent troll who's managed to make a good living out of it.

ivanvamp · May 16, 2015

Clear insanity. However I still think Olajuwan could give an NBA team 10-15 legit minutes a night. And he's over 50.

johnmd20 · May 16, 2015

ivanvamp said:
Clear insanity. However I still think Olajuwan could give an NBA team 10-15 legit minutes a night. And he's over 50.

You aren't allowed to call anyone insane anymore. No 50 year old could play 10-15 minutes a game in the NBA today and not be a corpse. Hakeem would get killed.

BannedbyNYYFans.com · May 16, 2015

Nick Kaufman said:
I didn't know where to put this, but I just saw Skip Bayless seriously argue that 52 year old Jordan would beat Lebron James today if they played 1 on 1. The level of idiocy on this man is very strong. Or he's an excellent troll who's managed to make a good living out of it.

He's not alone. People are morons...

To review: more than one-third of 1,471 registered voters surveyed between May 7 and May 10 believe that the 52-year-old owner of the Charlotte Hornets would take out the bigger, stronger player 22 years his junior who's just two days removed from hanging 38 on a 25-year-old All-Defensive swingman in a playoff game. Better still: 12 percent of respondents said they were "not sure."

jon abbey · May 16, 2015

It's not like Jordan and Olajuwon left the game when they were still superstars, like Jim Brown. They were not good at the end, and that was a long long time ago.

Kenny F'ing Powers · May 18, 2015

Jordan's myth is Paul Bunyanesque. Jordan played his last NBA game in 2003, and his last meaningful game in 1998. Anyone under 25 years of age have no real memories of Jordan, but they have nearly 20 years of folklore and myth-making. The younger generation has heard for their entire life that nobody could come close to Jordan. Not Kobe, not Lebron, nobody.

Between Lebron haters, Jordan lovers, and thousands of kids who have no point of reference, those numbers shouldn't be all that surprising.

Kliq · May 18, 2015

Consider me a first hand source, 95% of young people are fucking idiots about basketball.

Was (Not Wasdin) · May 18, 2015

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think peak MJ struggles mightily with peak Lebron. I'd give the edge to Jordan, but by very little. I don't think 52 year old MJ could beat Evan Turner, never mind Lebron.

And I think the younger version of Kobe would be an incredibly tough out for either MJ or Lebron in this mythical one-on-one tournament.

Blacken · May 18, 2015

I don't really disagree with that, but basketball is, still, a team sport. Peak LeBron with any four dudes is better than peak Jordan with any four dudes, and I think that matters. LeBron is supremely talented and almost always makes the right play, even if that takes the ball out of his hand. That's not shrinking from the spotlight or anything like that, that's the right thing to do. Because of this bullshit hot-sports-takes culture and the historical accident of the occasional very good hero-baller we don't quite get that, but that's on us.

LeBron vs. Bird / '14 Heat vs '86 Celtics.

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protector of human kind from spoilers

captain obvious

mad dog

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Shanghai Warrior

posts way less than 18% useful shit

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family crest has godzilla

Robespierre in a Cape