Lucic. Montreal. Emotions. Discussion. Ding!
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Salem's Lot said:
Personally I don't think that should be a suspension, but Wisniewski got 2 games for a slightly more obscene gesture a few years ago.
Why can't the Bruins just lose to this fucking team without making it a circus after the fact.
Every fucking time, there's something.
Every fucking time, there's something.
Were the two assists and numerous other plays to set up chances not enough tonight?TheShynessClinic said:
I said nothing negative about his play tonight. He wasn't terrible and had flashes of good play. He's still playing inconsistently, and worse - stupid. But tonight was a step in the right direction.Myt1 said:
What was stupid tonight? Were the assists just raw physical ability?
He looked good in the third period and overtime against Detroit, too.
He looked good in the third period and overtime against Detroit, too.
Did you miss his 10 minute misconduct and his cute little temper tantrum in the penalty box? That's what I mean when I said stupid.Myt1 said:
He's supposed to be a veteran leader on this team, but his after whistle antics are a continual distraction and hurt the team.
How did it hurt the team?
More to the point, if I check the game thread after Ference flipped off the Habs fans, your reaction will have been the same, right?
More to the point, if I check the game thread after Ference flipped off the Habs fans, your reaction will have been the same, right?
I love Looch's 'antics' and generally find them hilarious. I'm an unabashed fan. Of course they're easier to take when the team is winning and he's playing healthy.
I thought that was great tonight. I've only seen the .gif, but was he not giving the Habs fans a Cup lift? Anyone reminding Habs fans they haven't lifted their birthright for 21 years is hilarious in my opinion.
Edit: And a jack off gesture. Tremendous.
I thought that was great tonight. I've only seen the .gif, but was he not giving the Habs fans a Cup lift? Anyone reminding Habs fans they haven't lifted their birthright for 21 years is hilarious in my opinion.
Edit: And a jack off gesture. Tremendous.
He also feigned some self gratification before hoisting the Cup.
Frankly, it was a whole lot of nothing. But I'm sure the Montreal press will be aghast at his behavior, particularly in the presence of Les Glorieux.
I'm not sure it was worth a call to police ... though what's the equivalent of the FCC in Canada?
Frankly, it was a whole lot of nothing. But I'm sure the Montreal press will be aghast at his behavior, particularly in the presence of Les Glorieux.
I'm not sure it was worth a call to police ... though what's the equivalent of the FCC in Canada?
Myt1 said:
If you disagree with me on this, nothing I say will be able to convince you otherwise - and that's ok.
I think Lucic's constantly bullshit causes a distraction. I think it hurts the team. Maybe I'm wrong. What Ference did was a one time thing. I laughed at it and found it hilarious, partially because it seemed so out of character for him. Also because he didn't get a penalty for it.
Lucic (to me) has made a career out of being a sore loser, and taking out his frustrations in ways that aren't beneficial to the team. And the thing is - even when he doesn't do something wrong, he's lost the benefit of doubt with refs. They toss him or give him a 10 minute misconduct at the drop of the hat, because he has that reputation (Vancouver game the year after they won the Cup comes to mind, the first game against the NYR in the lockout season, Florida that season, last year against Colorado) and then another player has to serve the minor that generally accompanies the 10 minute misconduct.
I mean, at this point he is who he is. I had hoped he would mature as he was in the league longer, but it appears that's not going to happen. He's a talented player, who when playing within his game is an absolute force. The kind of player you can build your team around. Unfortunately he has these warts to his game that make it very hard to root for him when he's not playing like the player he can be.
The issue, though, is that it never matters at all with you and Lucic. He was one of the best players on the ice tonight and all you care about is a behavior that you would have lauded in pretty much everyone else. That's the reason for the pavlovian comment; the confirmation bias. And I find it generally hard to believe that something like the phony distraction from the handshake line had any effect at all on the team, let alone a negative one, but it's a fact just sitting there waiting to be cherry-picked while basically ignoring things like the stretches he spends carrying the team like early last year.
Does Lucic do some stuff that sucks? Of course he does. But the "dumbest player in the league" stuff is becoming ubiquitous and GenericJulE6 Post-Bot-esque.
I mean, one of these days, BSF will eventually seem to be right about Claude killing the Bruins offense, too.
Does Lucic do some stuff that sucks? Of course he does. But the "dumbest player in the league" stuff is becoming ubiquitous and GenericJulE6 Post-Bot-esque.
I mean, one of these days, BSF will eventually seem to be right about Claude killing the Bruins offense, too.
Myt1 said:
Disagree, completely. But that's whatever. He had a few nice plays, and made a few bad plays as well. And I also get on Marchand when he does stupid shit that hurts the team as well. Generally I'm opposed to stupid hockey, regardless of the name on the back, or the crest of the front of the jersey.
And here's the thing - Lucic had no bigger fan in the world than me his first 3-4 years in the NHL. My username on another board was Milan Neely (partially to annoy other posters, partially because I really believed he could be Cam Neely lite in his prime). Go back to any gamethread prior to the 2012 season and you'll see me all but cupping the balls with Milan. This isn't something where I've hated the guy since the beginning, and I don't hate him now. I see someone who could be a top 10 player in the league - all aspects of his play considered, and I see someone who for whatever reason hasn't improved at all in his last 2-3 years, and in some regards has regressed. I'm not about to burn my Lucic jersey over it - but in a gamethread, where emotions and dumb comments reign supreme - I'm as guilty as anyone.
And leave JulE6 Generic Post-Bot out of this. He's a Saint and doesn't deserve his name being dragged through the mud because of my shitty posting.
TheRealness said:
Fletcher: Your honor, I object!
Judge Stevens: And why is that, Mr. Reede?
Fletcher: It's devastating to my case!
Judge Stevens: Overruled.
Fletcher: Good call!
I don't see how Milan has regressed. He's basically hit his peak and is about as consistent as they come. His last 3 82 game seasons had point totals of 62, 61 and 59. That is pretty damned good for a top 6 left winger. The outlier is the lockout season where he struggled in the regular season, but rebounded to be a stud in the playoffs (19 points in 22 games).
I think the problem is the bar was set too high. He was never going to be a top-10 player in this league.
I think the problem is the bar was set too high. He was never going to be a top-10 player in this league.
I split out the Lucic talk from the Montreal gamethread because I thought it was good stuff and didn't want it buried just there.
I think there's two arguments at play here. 1. Lucic's performance on the ice. 2. Lucic's value relative to his contract. I think number 1 is fine, and cshea is right...this is what he is. A 60 point first line forward who is physical and a force at his best, emotional and prone to dumb penalties at worst. That's all fine and I don't think anyone would be unhappy with that production every year.
Number 2 is where it gets tricky though. He was signed to a 6 million AAV deal likely with the expectation that he would become a little more than that. Is he worth that cap hit if he just a 60 point winger? Maybe, maybe not, but that's where the interesting discussion is to be had, in my opinion. Saying he sucks or has regressed or is the stupidest player in the league doesn't hold water in my eyes. But saying that he's overpaid and not the best value at the moment (especially considering Seguin was considered to be overpaid at the same price)? That could very well be true.
I think there's two arguments at play here. 1. Lucic's performance on the ice. 2. Lucic's value relative to his contract. I think number 1 is fine, and cshea is right...this is what he is. A 60 point first line forward who is physical and a force at his best, emotional and prone to dumb penalties at worst. That's all fine and I don't think anyone would be unhappy with that production every year.
Number 2 is where it gets tricky though. He was signed to a 6 million AAV deal likely with the expectation that he would become a little more than that. Is he worth that cap hit if he just a 60 point winger? Maybe, maybe not, but that's where the interesting discussion is to be had, in my opinion. Saying he sucks or has regressed or is the stupidest player in the league doesn't hold water in my eyes. But saying that he's overpaid and not the best value at the moment (especially considering Seguin was considered to be overpaid at the same price)? That could very well be true.
The Four Peters said:
Sucks that you essentially just summed up everybody's thoughts and killed your own thread.
I think Lucic's intimidation factor (when he's on) is very underrated because it's so intangible. Every single one of us had a moment in their playing career where you were on the ice with someone who scared you, and it affects the way you play- throws your game off. When Lucic is healthy and moving his feet, he scares the shit out of a lot of players and that mental edge helps the Bruins without a doubt. He's out their killing people and there's nothing they can do about it (other than try to goad him into something stupid). While we want him to be more in control, he thrives off of the emotion of being the baddest and really gets those tree trunks moving, which allows him to be effective offensively.
I just think it's hilarious when he is bullying people because there's nothing they can do and he knows it and they know it. Just brutal to watch.
Lucic can be worth his contract even at 60 points a season. He just needs to be more consistent with his play. Lucic will go stretches where he's absolutely dominant and worth every penny. But then he goes into month long funks where he's no better than current David Clarkson.
When I said earlier that he regressed, I meant that it seems like he's even streakier now than when he was younger. He can still be a dominant player and at times he is. But he needs to figure out how to be a factor every game, just not one out of every three.
If you're getting a consistent, even performance from him over the entirety a season - he's worth it. His combination of power, toughness, and scoring is virtually unmatched. Unfortunately he rarely seems like he has all three facets of his game going at the same time - which makes his contract seem at times worse than it is.
When I said earlier that he regressed, I meant that it seems like he's even streakier now than when he was younger. He can still be a dominant player and at times he is. But he needs to figure out how to be a factor every game, just not one out of every three.
If you're getting a consistent, even performance from him over the entirety a season - he's worth it. His combination of power, toughness, and scoring is virtually unmatched. Unfortunately he rarely seems like he has all three facets of his game going at the same time - which makes his contract seem at times worse than it is.
TheShynessClinic said:
I agree with this. In the maturity and consistency department, I expected more from him (and from Marchand for that matter). No doubt he has all of the tools (even his skating is good compared to a lot of guys of his size and build). But he can be intimidating without the BS.
Is Lucic becoming a punch line like this article suggests?
I'm not sure I disagree with the sentiment. I don't know what happened to Lucic, but he's starting to act like a coward. I was at the game on Friday and Lucic absolutely started to go at Prout and made a motion like he was going to drop his gloves. Prout dropped him swiftly and Lucic is crying about it. Not only that, but if Lucic didn't want to fight then why is he shoving a guy from behind in the back of the head?
It's getting difficult to root for the guy, to be honest.
I'm not sure I disagree with the sentiment. I don't know what happened to Lucic, but he's starting to act like a coward. I was at the game on Friday and Lucic absolutely started to go at Prout and made a motion like he was going to drop his gloves. Prout dropped him swiftly and Lucic is crying about it. Not only that, but if Lucic didn't want to fight then why is he shoving a guy from behind in the back of the head?
It's getting difficult to root for the guy, to be honest.
FL4WL3SS said:
Really? I mean.... really?
I hate that article so much. He takes cheap shots, but to call him a coward? Are you being deliberately hyperbolic or are you just soaking up the Ohio stupidity? I hear it's endemic over there.
Is Aaron Ward a coward because Scott Walker dropped him with his gloves on? Clearly, he pushed Walker and stared at him, so he really wanted to fight and should have been ready?
Stop. Just stop it.
FL4WL3SS said:
I don't disagree with this article or the sentiment that Lucic shouldn't be whining about it, but it seemed pretty clear to me that Lucic wasn't accepting a fight with Prout when I watched that live, to the point where I was surprised when I saw Prout throw. All in all I'd rather Lucic just kicked his ass next time rather than acting butthurt about it to the press. Its the kind of thing that you used to hear from opposing players about HIM.
Lucic was roughing him cos Prout slashed Lucic's stick right out of his fucking hands. I don't think he ever intended to get into a scrap with seconds left til OT. Prout jumped at the chance to get a punch in and he did, simple as that. I don't think it's a stretch to understand why he did, but it wasn't a clean bout either.
While perhaps not pretty, I'm OK with Lucic playing mad. If this gets him going all the better.
Saturday December 27th it's on like Donkey Kong.
While perhaps not pretty, I'm OK with Lucic playing mad. If this gets him going all the better.
Saturday December 27th it's on like Donkey Kong.
So you don't think some of his antics are getting old?TheRealness said:
I see the incident with Prout differently than you do. Don't engage a guy unless you're ready to drop the gloves, especially if you have a reputation for being a tough guy. If it was Loui doing the shoving, this would be a different conversation, right?
I'm not letting Prout completely off the hook here. I just don't agree with how Lucic handled it.
FL4WL3SS said:
Does he come across as whiny bitching about it? Sure. Is he a coward? No, that's moronic. Is it hard for me to root for him? Absolutely not, my love for him is still strong.
It's one thing to not like the bitching, but it's entirely another to call him a coward and say you can't root for him like he's Matt Cooke or something.
Lucic is in a no-win position. Two weeks ago he was applauded for showing restraint when PK Subban clearly tried to goad him into doing something stupid and taking dumb penalties. This time he tried to do the same and got punched in the face so he gets called a coward. Even if he had gone with Prout the narrative would've been that Lucic is selfish for fighting in overtime while his team was trying to win the game and that Lucic is a baby for over reacting to a little slash.
Lucic has a 63.5% Corsi in a very small sample size when playing with Soderberg (46:52 of ES TOI). If Krejci continues to miss games, I'd hope they'd leave Lucic there instead of with Chris Kelly and the Providence kids.
that was hardly a slash. Lucic had one hand on the stick and he's close to the net in OT. WTF do you expect? then he hits him in the head from behind. And doesn't want to fight? So yeah, I think he was over-reacting.
Prout definitely sucker-punched him, but Lucic escalated it, to no benefit whatsoever.
Since the handshake line incident, I feel like Looch has lost all the benefit of the doubt in these situations, and the fact they keep happening is clearly hurting his image.
Prout definitely sucker-punched him, but Lucic escalated it, to no benefit whatsoever.
Since the handshake line incident, I feel like Looch has lost all the benefit of the doubt in these situations, and the fact they keep happening is clearly hurting his image.
Maybe coward was too strong of a word, I'll admit that.TheRealness said:
Also, just for clarity sake I said that it was getting difficult to root for him (to be more specific, not in general, but in these situations). Not that I can't root for him.
FL4WL3SS said:
No doubt everyone here wants to see him fired up and playing like we know he can play. This whole Prout thing was just a shitshow across the board and it's a bloody nose on the face on the Bruins - nobody likes that. But they did win that game and did better than expected against Pitt considering the injuries, so here's hoping #17 is that sleeping giant Prout just woke up, and he can go on a tear.
Calling Lucic a coward because he won't drop the gloves in overtime with so many Bruins already hurting is crazy. But he is kind of a tool and can be hard to root for off the ice. Such as dropping the ultimate line of "do you know who I am?" to a police officer.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/cmon-milan-lucic-dont-be-that-guy?urn=nhl,wp12092
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/cmon-milan-lucic-dont-be-that-guy?urn=nhl,wp12092
I've resigned myself to believe that most athletes I cheer for are tools and hard to root for off the ice. Luckily I don't hold personal relationships with any of them.
I'm going to present this without any commentary, so as not to influence the discussion of what I'm about to post:
http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/643911
http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/643911
Fans in Montreal and Vancouver don't like Milan Lucic. Wow. Revealing stuff.
Refs probably shouldn't be saying stuff like that though. Supposed to be impartial.
Edit: sorry, I thought you linked the similar Columbus Dispatch story which notes he's heard a lot from Vancouver and Montreal fans in particular.
Refs probably shouldn't be saying stuff like that though. Supposed to be impartial.
Edit: sorry, I thought you linked the similar Columbus Dispatch story which notes he's heard a lot from Vancouver and Montreal fans in particular.
Assuming it was that night's refs (Nov 22), Brad Meier and Kyle Rehman were the ones working.
I'm surprised Looch would garner such a reaction. Is he a bully? Obviously. But does he really make the official's jobs that much more difficult? Hit, fight, go to the box for 5. Someone like Marchand I could see considering he's such a pain in the ass.
Regardless, the professionalism of these two leaves a lot to be desired.
I'm surprised Looch would garner such a reaction. Is he a bully? Obviously. But does he really make the official's jobs that much more difficult? Hit, fight, go to the box for 5. Someone like Marchand I could see considering he's such a pain in the ass.
Regardless, the professionalism of these two leaves a lot to be desired.
Dropkick Izzy said:
I'm just reading lips from the comfort of my couch, but it sure looks like Lucic gives refs an earful on just about every penalty. And every non-penalty that he thinks is a penalty. I'm sure they're not too fond of that.
Obviously, that doesn't excuse congratulating a player for beating him up.
I'm not a Bruins' fan. I don't like Lucic but in the way that I wish he was on my team. The quote above accurately describes my sentiments on the guy. It's unnecessary.behindthepen said:
There's a low-hanging fruit quality to this part of the discussion. I'm skeptical that the linesmen spoke in the manner the immortal hockey scribe Navin Vaswani suggests. They may have joked to Prout about the punch, but the suggestion that they appreciate Prout getting the best of Lucic in one fight because the latter allegedly gives them grief at times sounds kind of dubious. He's a young guy and new to the League. They were joking with him. Milan Lucic is not the first difficult player (if he even is to them; we don't know that to be true) they have dealt with. If I were them, a million billion red hot suns could come and go before I'd be buddying up to a player in that manner. It would be extremely unprofessional.ngruz25 said:
This sounds like the case of a bitter fan on the internet making an inductive leap.
Edit: There's also an article (blog) out there from someone named David Rogers where he makes an inductive leap from Prout's comments about some refs chatting him up about the punch. Again, a lot of reasons to be skeptical that the refs were reveling in his knock down of Lucic. Hogwash, I say, hogwash.
I think it happens all the time. When watching 24/7 you hear the refs talking to guys about stuff that happened in previous games.ngruz25 said:
Not hockey related, but the audio from the 2013 world series where Molina and the home plate ump are talking about how you can not get Ortiz out, It isn't in the negative sense like they are referring to disliking Lucic, but it is still talking about an event/player that at some point they will have to officiate. I don't think we can expect the refs to not talk to the players at all about past events.
Now if we follow those refs and see that they are calling a ton of penalties on Lucic, then there is an issue.
You got that right.kenneycb said:
The Score appears to be something like a blog of many different people who may or may not be nothing more than enthusiastic fans writing about their teams, but I don't know for sure. Wouldn't even know how to tell in this day and age or if it matters. Can't we just lift up its skirt and feel around for the answer? A few fellow members were writing about the professionalism of the linesmen, and I thought I'd comment on that.
Annual Report - http://mobile.thescore.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/theScore-Inc-F2014-Annual-Report-2014.pdf. Boom.
It's a wholly-owned subsidiary of Rogers that has some very good hockey writers, specifically Justin Bourne among others. When you denigrate piece as being written by "the immortal scribe Navin Vaswani", I do find it important to understand the context of where the piece was published, which is more than just a place for deranged fans to rant and rave as we collectively do here.
It's a wholly-owned subsidiary of Rogers that has some very good hockey writers, specifically Justin Bourne among others. When you denigrate piece as being written by "the immortal scribe Navin Vaswani", I do find it important to understand the context of where the piece was published, which is more than just a place for deranged fans to rant and rave as we collectively do here.
Ah, the claim of status through association. I do now I understand the context better, and you can color me less impressed than I was before. I could understand if the article - which contained the unsubstantiated implication that the referees don't like Milan Lucic and vocally expressed pleasure that Prout got the better of him in one fight - came from a fan writing in a blog. Show me a well-written and researched piece, and I'll be happy to treat it with due respect.kenneycb said:
What about specific questions to Prout clarifying the context of the conversations between him and the refs? What specifically does Prout feel about Lucic? Why weren't the linesmen interviewed? Why wasn't Lucic interviewed? What the author wrote is a form of character assassination. If he opts to do that, I feel it's quite appropriate to question his basis for doing so and the supporting information (or lack thereof) he's used.
Now I have to go take a shower for defending Lucic's right to a "fair hearing."