Mankins with 2 TD yesterday

ivanvamp

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Jul 18, 2005
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No really.  Joe Buck mentioned it during the broadcast.  Sort of.  
 
Let's evaluate.
 
1.  The OL is playing incredibly well, minus Mankins.
2.  Tim Wright has 23 rec, 222 yds, and 6 td.
3.  They picked up an extra draft pick.
4.  They shed a lot of salary.
5.  The Patriots are 9-2 and the best team in football.
6.  Mankins has not played very well and his team is 2-9.
 
Are there any people left who still think that wasn't a good deal for the Patriots?
 

NortheasternPJ

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ivanvamp said:
No really.  Joe Buck mentioned it during the broadcast.  Sort of.  
 
Let's evaluate.
 
1.  The OL is playing incredibly well, minus Mankins.
2.  Tim Wright has 23 rec, 222 yds, and 6 td.
3.  They picked up an extra draft pick.
4.  They shed a lot of salary.
5.  The Patriots are 9-2 and the best team in football.
6.  Mankins has not played very well and his team is 2-9.
 
Are there any people left who still think that wasn't a good deal for the Patriots?
 
I think the only people who don't think this was a good deal are the people in the camp of "Wright was going to be cut anyways" and that he was a throw in and this was just a straight salary dump because the Pats didn't want to pay the player. 
 

Ed Hillel

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Those 23 receptions are on 25 targets, one of which was a throwaway btw. He's also an important Red Zone target, which adds to the value. All this because Belichick HAD TO BE THE SMAHTEST GUY IN THE ROOM, MIKE!
 

jsinger121

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Give him a full offseason in the Pats system and I think they will be able to get more out of him. 
 

Stitch01

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This is probably about 90th percentile of the range of outcomes I thought possible for Wright, and I didn't hate the deal if they cut Wright before camp ended, so yeah, pretty happy with this trade.
 

KingChre

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Ed Hillel said:
Those 23 receptions are on 25 targets, one of which was a throwaway btw. He's also an important Red Zone target, which adds to the value. All this because Belichick HAD TO BE THE SMAHTEST GUY IN THE ROOM, MIKE!
 
I heard the last line in my head in a shrill, shrieking voice and it sent such chills down my spine.  :smithicide:
 

lostjumper

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You know, people have been really quiet about the wright for mankins trade over the last 7 weeks. Which is odd, because a certain radio show mentioned it every day for the first 4 weeks. It's almost as if they don't want to bring it up anymore because their HOT SPORTZ TAKE was way off base. 
 

kelpapa

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jsinger121 said:
Give him a full offseason in the Pats system and I think they will be able to get more out of him. 
This is a great point. He was clearly not a factor early in the season, and the Patriot's offensive playbook has given veteran receivers issues. You have to be expecting him to be an even larger weapon next year/at the end of this season when he understands the system better. 6 touchdowns in the last 7 games..
 

TheRooster

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Now throw in Ayers, Casillas, Blount and (maybe) Branch plus the drafting of Stork and apparently the NEP have a pretty good GM.  All without mentioning a certain sleepy RB.
 

dbn

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Playing in 2TE sets with Robert Gronkowski will not hurt his effectiveness.
 
Just re-watched his two TD catches from yesterday. It seems that the D was distracted by big 87 on the first. On the second, they just left Wright alone; not sure if worrying about Gronk had anything to do with it, more like just a blown coverage.
 
 
 

Phragle

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jsinger121 said:
Give him a full offseason in the Pats system and I think they will be able to get more out of him. 
 
Funny how no one brings that up about Mankins and his new system in TB.
 
Unless they get another ring this will be always be a bad trade. Here are the reasons why that you guys can get your panties in a bunch over. For one, Mankins would still be the best guard on the team and would have kept shitty Devey off the field completely. That would have kept Brady healthier and maybe would have helped them win a game that they - without Mankins - lost (Miami). The interior O line is still relatively questionable and the weakest link on the team. Wright was on the bubble and available, so I don't consider his performance a big factor in the trade. He was a throw-in and would have been here anyway IMO. While he's been pretty good I'm not ready to but him in the HOF just because 6 of his 23 catches happened on a certain part of the feild. TDs are splash plays and while they look cool on the stat sheet, I don't think much of them from a player evaluation standpoint.
 

Ed Hillel

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He's probably better than Connolly, but the difference is marginal. I wouldn't assume a guy with Wright's 2013 stats would have made it to the Pats on waivers (had he even been cut), in fact I think it's unlikely. I also wouldn't use the "he was almost cut" argument since we're dealing with Tampa's talent evaluators. Pats also got a 4th rounder and saved some money. If the Pats end up with Devey playing again, you'll have a point. Mankins would be nice for depth, should one of the current starts go down, though we have options to plug in hopefully above Devey. Doing the trade over seems pretty automatic, though.    
 

Toe Nash

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Phragle said:
 
Funny how no one brings that up about Mankins and his new system in TB.
 
Unless they get another ring this will be always be a bad trade. Here are the reasons why that you guys can get your panties in a bunch over. For one, Mankins would still be the best guard on the team and would have kept shitty Devey off the field completely. That would have kept Brady healthier and maybe would have helped them win a game that they - without Mankins - lost (Miami). The interior O line is still relatively questionable and the weakest link on the team. Wright was on the bubble and available, so I don't consider his performance a big factor in the trade. He was a throw-in and would have been here anyway IMO. While he's been pretty good I'm not ready to but him in the HOF just because 6 of his 23 catches happened on a certain part of the feild. TDs are splash plays and while they look cool on the stat sheet, I don't think much of them from a player evaluation standpoint.
Well, they have to play in 2015 too. If they were likely to cut Mankins anyway (assuming he wouldn't accept a restructure) you have a longer time to figure out who your best G are, and you get Tim Wright for a tiny contract next year. And you have more money to re-sign Revis or do other things.
 

Leather

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Phragle said:
 
Funny how no one brings that up about Mankins and his new system in TB.
 
Unless they get another ring this will be always be a bad trade. Here are the reasons why that you guys can get your panties in a bunch over. For one, Mankins would still be the best guard on the team and would have kept shitty Devey off the field completely. That would have kept Brady healthier and maybe would have helped them win a game that they - without Mankins - lost (Miami). The interior O line is still relatively questionable and the weakest link on the team. Wright was on the bubble and available, so I don't consider his performance a big factor in the trade. He was a throw-in and would have been here anyway IMO. While he's been pretty good I'm not ready to but him in the HOF just because 6 of his 23 catches happened on a certain part of the feild. TDs are splash plays and while they look cool on the stat sheet, I don't think much of them from a player evaluation standpoint.
 
Is this a parody?
 
They are 9-2, but because they lost to Miami in week 1, it is a bad trade?
 
M

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I'm not sure the team's record speaks to whether the Mankins trade was or wasn't a good idea.  That's kinda "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" thinking.  Wright is, for me, nowhere close to being a top reason that the Patriots are 9-2 and kicking ass... he's probably #20 or #25 or so.
 
I disagree with Phragle's argument, but "the Pats are 9-2!" is not a counterargument worth the name.
 

Tony C

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Wright was on the bubble and available, so I don't consider his performance a big factor in the trade
 
 
On what planet do you evaluate a trade by ignoring the performance of the player acquired in the trade? That is one weird metric (similarly, Mankins may have been on the bubble and available -- do we therefore not count that?). In any case, I doubt he would have been cut. And if he had been cut, I'm guessing he would not have made it to the Pats.
 
More to the point, since the loss of Hernandez the Pats have lacked depth at TE and that's been a big problem, especially in the red zone. Just as I am not sure why you'd ignore Wright's performance in grading a trade, more specifically am not sure why red zone TD catches are just "splash plays" -- having big receivers to catch TDs is a great thing. Danny Amendola is a better receiver than Wright, but Wright is much more helpful at the goal line.  
 
Wright isn't Hernandez, but does fill a very specific role on the team and has done so in a very positive way. I think that's relevant.
 
Mankins, on the flip, hasn't been impressive in TB and was clearly on the decline. The issue with Devey is why he was playing at all (this will remain a mystery) when there were options more or less as good as Mankins on the roster. But the Pats always had those options.
 

Leather

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MentalDisabldLst said:
I'm not sure the team's record speaks to whether the Mankins trade was or wasn't a good idea.  That's kinda "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" thinking.  Wright is, for me, nowhere close to being a top reason that the Patriots are 9-2 and kicking ass... he's probably #20 or #25 or so.
 
I disagree with Phragle's argument, but "the Pats are 9-2!" is not a counterargument worth the name.
 
 
Phragle: "Well, they would be 10-1 if they had Mankins based on my out-of-my-ass opinion.  Bad trade."
DrLeather: "But they are, in reality, 9-2 without him."
 
MDL:  "Point phragle!"
 
OK.
 
M

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Also, Wright has murdered zero people, so he's been an upgrade at his position.
 

Stitch01

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Evaluating the trade based on whether the team wins a Super Bowl seems bad too though.  Mankins would have been an upgrade on this years team, but I don't think it was worth the extra salary.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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drleather2001 said:
And his point that they would have won one game, as well as the others that they've won, is a good argument?
 
At least it doesn't exhibit a basic logical fallacy.
 
Look, the way I'd argue the other side to Phragle here is,
 
1. The Pats needed the cap space, and Mankins was the least-damaging place to find it (one could dispute either half of this, but I believe it to be true)
2. Mankins' performance was declining and hasn't been in his All-Pro form thus far this year either
3. We would not have gotten Wright except by trading positive value to TB, and they perceived Mankins (despite his contract) as positive value.  Furthermore, Wright has exceeded expectations and been a plus over whoever would have started as the #2 TE (Hoomanawanui?)
4. Brady is perfectly healthy going into Week 13, despite the downgrade at OL
5. By getting younger at OL, we're investing in the next generation of protection for #12.  You don't go from college to 2007 Matt Light instantly, you have to start some guys without game experience sometimes
6. Even if Mankins alone would have been the difference in Miami, that game will not end up mattering in the standings, and the Pats are better off long-term anyway.  Especially having teased and tantalized Dolphins fans in the process, while their team still (likely) ends up on their couches in January.
 

Ed Hillel

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Stitch01 said:
Evaluating the trade based on whether the team wins a Super Bowl seems bad too though.  Mankins would have been an upgrade on this years team, but I don't think it was worth the extra salary.
 
This is tough, because you have to evaluate depth vs. the value Wright provides, which is more than Phragle is letting on. There was an adjustment time with the new OL and new OL coach, but it's not really fair to assume Solder wouldn't have sucked out loud, for example, if Mankins was here. Yeah, Mankins is a marginal upgrade over the starter, and a big upgrade over Devey (though again, not assuming he's next in line at this point), but Wright is a significant upgrade himself over Hooman. That's only addressing this season, in the long term it's an obvious win.
 

Phragle

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Ed Hillel said:
Doing the trade over seems pretty automatic, though.    
 
If Wright wasn't part of the trade would you feel the same way? 
 
Stitch01 said:
Evaluating the trade based on whether the team wins a Super Bowl seems bad too though.  Mankins would have been an upgrade on this years team, but I don't think it was worth the extra salary.
 
No I'm not evaluating based on whether they win a super bowl. I'm done evaluating it. I was done evaluating it when the trade happened. I don't wait to see the outcome because there are so many variables. If the Patriots traded a 7th for Calais Campbell right now it's a great trade right? Sure, but if Campbell gets hurt and that 7th turns into Brady 2.0 now it's a bad trade? I don't look at things like that. Seems pointless to me.
 
The SB line only meant that I forget bad moves when a championship is won. Percy Harvin was not a bad trade for the Seahawks. They got a ring out of it.
 

lexrageorge

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Phragle said:
 
Funny how no one brings that up about Mankins and his new system in TB.
 
Unless they get another ring this will be always be a bad trade. Here are the reasons why that you guys can get your panties in a bunch over. For one, Mankins would still be the best guard on the team and would have kept shitty Devey off the field completely. That would have kept Brady healthier and maybe would have helped them win a game that they - without Mankins - lost (Miami). The interior O line is still relatively questionable and the weakest link on the team. Wright was on the bubble and available, so I don't consider his performance a big factor in the trade. He was a throw-in and would have been here anyway IMO. While he's been pretty good I'm not ready to but him in the HOF just because 6 of his 23 catches happened on a certain part of the feild. TDs are splash plays and while they look cool on the stat sheet, I don't think much of them from a player evaluation standpoint.
Some problems with your argument:
 
1.) Mankins being the best guard on the team is a questionable assumption.  
 
2.) Brady is healthy, so I don't understand how he would have kept Brady healthier. 
 
3.) Tim Wright had a decent rookie season (54 catches) and was hardly a bubble player with Tampa.  
 
M

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Phragle said:
If Wright wasn't part of the trade would you feel the same way?
 
If we had traded Mankins (and his contract) for a 4th, I'd still think we probably came out ahead, but it's a lot closer.
 
Having gotten Wright as well, I think the trade was a steal.
 

Ed Hillel

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Phragle said:
If Wright wasn't part of the trade would you feel the same way? 
 
I can't answer that because he was. You can't just assume Wright wasn't an imporant part of the trade in BB's eyes, or that he would have been available, if that's what you're trying to say. Again, looking at his stats in 2013, I don't think he gets past Houston or Oakland on waivers, honestly, and implicitly citing Lovie Smith's talent evaluation skills doesn't do it for me. 
 

Phragle

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lexrageorge said:
Some problems with your argument:
 
1.) Mankins being the best guard on the team is a questionable assumption.  
 
2.) Brady is healthy, so I don't understand how he would have kept Brady healthier. 
 
3.) Tim Wright had a decent rookie season (54 catches) and was hardly a bubble player with Tampa.  
 
1. I don't think so.
 
2. So there is only healthy and not healthy in your world? it's a light switch? Everyone in the NFL is dealing with something. There is always healthier.
 
3. I can assure you he was in fact on the bubble. I have a friend in Tampa that's pretty close to the team.
 

Stitch01

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I kind of agree with Phragle that if they wanted to get Wright on the Patriots there were ways to acquire him without using a starting guard although I dont know exactly how to discount that opportunity cost. I also think the Mankins upgrade is a little bit more than marginal, particularly given the depth on the inside is somewhat shaky, and worth more for this season than having a complimentary tight end. 
 
I liked the trade longer term even if Wright sucked though (I think I ascribed 60% of the value to the cap space, 30% to the draft pick, and 10% to Wright when they made the trade.  Maybe it was more like 60/20/20, but I think if Mankins made less money or wanted to restructure this trade never happens) as I dont think the upgrade at guard was worth $6MM or w/e it was.  Add that they got a mid round draft pick back to boot and Im obviously still a fan of the trade long term. 
 

bluefenderstrat

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Phragle said:
 
1. I don't think so.
 
2. So there is only healthy and not healthy in your world? it's a light switch? Everyone in the NFL is dealing with something. There is always healthier.
 
3. I can assure you he was in fact on the bubble. I have a friend in Tampa that's pretty close to the team.
 
Is this just an intellectual exercise to you?    Edit: and I don't mean this in a snarky way--just wondering if you are playing devil's advocate based on the "panties in a bunch" comment above.   Fine either way, it's an interesting discussion.
 

ivanvamp

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Stitch01 said:
Evaluating the trade based on whether the team wins a Super Bowl seems bad too though.  Mankins would have been an upgrade on this years team, but I don't think it was worth the extra salary.
 
Especially considering the fact that Mankins was not very good in either SB 42 or SB 46 (I know he was hurt in one of those, but still….).
 
I can't believe the argument that because the Patriots lost to Miami (on a day when the heat caused the defense to melt in the second half, and when the pressure on Brady largely came from the RT position, not the LG position) it was a bad trade.  
 

dbn

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MentalDisabldLst said:
Also, Wright has murdered zero people, so he's been an upgrade at his position.
 
Allegedly has murdered zero people.
 
We've been over this before, but to my eyes and the ratings (fwtw) Mankins was a monster in the run game last year but his pass protection was not very good. Or, at least very inconsistent. I don't see poor run blocking as being a particular problem this year.
 
Edit: winning or not winning a Superbowl this season would be a perfectly fine metric with which to judge this trade if we could know if they would or wouldn't have won it if not for the trade. We can't.
 

lexrageorge

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Phragle said:
 
1. I don't think so.
 
2. So there is only healthy and not healthy in your world? it's a light switch? Everyone in the NFL is dealing with something. There is always healthier.
 
3. I can assure you he was in fact on the bubble. I have a friend in Tampa that's pretty close to the team.
On #2, do you have any indication that Brady is not healthy?  Yes, I know he's been on a couple of injury reports from time to time, but nothing to indicate to me that presence of Mankins would have made any difference.
 
The last one is the most surprising, although I'll take your word for it.  It doesn't say much for Tampa's personnel evaluation.  Granted, Wright is not HoF material, but he appears to be a decent rotation player in the TE spot.  
 
I agree with Stich and other posters in that those who like the trade value the cap space, which could come in handy next year during those Revis talks.  Not everyone will weight the cap space the same, so I expect there will still be disagreement.  
 

DJnVa

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MentalDisabldLst said:
 
At least it doesn't exhibit a basic logical fallacy.
 
Look, the way I'd argue the other side to Phragle here is,
 
1. The Pats needed the cap space, and Mankins was the least-damaging place to find it (one could dispute either half of this, but I believe it to be true)
2. Mankins' performance was declining and hasn't been in his All-Pro form thus far this year either
3. We would not have gotten Wright except by trading positive value to TB, and they perceived Mankins (despite his contract) as positive value.  Furthermore, Wright has exceeded expectations and been a plus over whoever would have started as the #2 TE (Hoomanawanui?)
4. Brady is perfectly healthy going into Week 13, despite the downgrade at OL
5. By getting younger at OL, we're investing in the next generation of protection for #12.  You don't go from college to 2007 Matt Light instantly, you have to start some guys without game experience sometimes
6. Even if Mankins alone would have been the difference in Miami, that game will not end up mattering in the standings, and the Pats are better off long-term anyway.  Especially having teased and tantalized Dolphins fans in the process, while their team still (likely) ends up on their couches in January.
 
Are you sure you're not a lawyer?
 

Stitch01

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Phragle said:
 
If Wright wasn't part of the trade would you feel the same way? 
 
 
No I'm not evaluating based on whether they win a super bowl. I'm done evaluating it. I was done evaluating it when the trade happened. I don't wait to see the outcome because there are so many variables. If the Patriots traded a 7th for Calais Campbell right now it's a great trade right? Sure, but if Campbell gets hurt and that 7th turns into Brady 2.0 now it's a bad trade? I don't look at things like that. Seems pointless to me.
 
The SB line only meant that I forget bad moves when a championship is won. Percy Harvin was not a bad trade for the Seahawks. They got a ring out of it.
I find the second paragraph sort of contradictory, but OK.
 

Stitch01

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Well, I agree with your first paragraph, but it would pretty much preclude erasing a bad trade like the Harvin deal because the team won a ring. 
 

amarshal2

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Phragle said:
 
No I'm not evaluating based on whether they win a super bowl. I'm done evaluating it. I was done evaluating it when the trade happened. I don't wait to see the outcome because there are so many variables. If the Patriots traded a 7th for Calais Campbell right now it's a great trade right? Sure, but if Campbell gets hurt and that 7th turns into Brady 2.0 now it's a bad trade? I don't look at things like that. Seems pointless to me.
 
The SB line only meant that I forget bad moves when a championship is won. Percy Harvin was not a bad trade for the Seahawks. They got a ring out of it.
 
With this approach you can never be wrong.  Whatever you say at the time the trade happened is the "correct" evaluation since everything that happens afterwards is discarded.
 
In this instance I think the play of Tim Wright and Mankins post trade is relevant information that one should consider.  I don't think this is in-congruent with what you said about Campbell.
 

wutang112878

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The Mankins deal isnt just about this year though which is why its difficult to evaluate.  
 
We probably all agree he was overpaid or was on the verge of being overpaid and dealing him helped the Pats shed salary.  Early on things didnt look good, but overall season to date the line seems to be fine and has been very good as of late.  So the question becomes would the upgrade Mankins would have provided at guard be worth the $6.5M price tag?  I cant say that it would have been.
 
Looking forward, this money isnt just for this year and most likely at the end of the year this creates savings for them which get applied to next year's cap.  If true and if that money helps them keep Revis for next year, then is it worth it?  In my eyes it would be worth it because we pretty easily found a replacement guard but its going to be very difficult to find a replacement corner for Revis.
 

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You've also got to really study a shitload of all-22 to have an informed opinion of whether Mankins actually is meaningfully better than Connolly/Stork/Wendell.  The quality of the replacement players is pretty important to the deal and while we can all agree that Devey sucks the rest of the interior line has played pretty damn well.
 

Super Nomario

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I'm generally an "In BB I trust" guy, and I don't have a huge issue with the Mankins trade (especially in hindsight), but there are still a couple things I do have issue with:
 
MentalDisabldLst said:
5. By getting younger at OL, we're investing in the next generation of protection for #12.  You don't go from college to 2007 Matt Light instantly, you have to start some guys without game experience sometimes
They didn't really do this, though. Stork is young, but the other two interior spots are being manned by 32-year-old (and in the last year of his contract) Connolly and 28-year-old (and two years left) Wendell. There's still an issue with the interior OL going forward.
 
Shelterdog said:
You've also got to really study a shitload of all-22 to have an informed opinion of whether Mankins actually is meaningfully better than Connolly/Stork/Wendell.  The quality of the replacement players is pretty important to the deal and while we can all agree that Devey sucks the rest of the interior line has played pretty damn well.
I think it's fair to posit that adding Mankins wouldn't considerably upgrade the Connolly / Stork / Wendell combination, but it took five weeks to find that group as they cycled through Cannon, Devey, and Fleming as sub-par interior options. Of those guys, Devey was the only one who saw significant time at G in the preseason. If the Pats had made the same Mankins trade at draft time and cycled through OL combinations in the preseason, it would have been one thing, but doing it on the eve of the season put the position through upheaval over the first quarter of the season, when they went 2-2 (and nearly 1-3). The trade itself was fine; the timing of the trade and the general offseason approach to the interior OL were pretty curious.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Phragle said:
 
Funny how no one brings that up about Mankins and his new system in TB.
 
Unless they get another ring this will be always be a bad trade. Here are the reasons why that you guys can get your panties in a bunch over. For one, Mankins would still be the best guard on the team and would have kept shitty Devey off the field completely. That would have kept Brady healthier and maybe would have helped them win a game that they - without Mankins - lost (Miami). The interior O line is still relatively questionable and the weakest link on the team. Wright was on the bubble and available, so I don't consider his performance a big factor in the trade. He was a throw-in and would have been here anyway IMO. While he's been pretty good I'm not ready to but him in the HOF just because 6 of his 23 catches happened on a certain part of the feild. TDs are splash plays and while they look cool on the stat sheet, I don't think much of them from a player evaluation standpoint.
 
This is like the fucking twilight zone.  Like someone else said, you're basically making an argument that sets you up to be never wrong.  It doesn't matter what actually happened, all that matters is what was happening when the trade was made?  I mean this in all sincerity, but what the fuck are you talking about?  You can't judge a trade just based on how you felt about the trade at the time it happened.  The results of the trade are the only thing that matters.  Sure, if someone gets hurt immediately after a trade, it wouldn't make the trade a bad one at the time the trade was made, but it sure as shit makes the trade a bad one in hindsight.  The only difference is whether or not the trade's failure should lead to the GM being destroyed for it. I don't give a flying shit about whether or not the Pats should have traded Mankins or not, which is what you seem to be discussing.  I care about whether or not the trade made the team better. 
 
The interior O Line is "still relatively questionable and the weakest link on the team."  On what planet is that?  They've given up a total of 16 sacks on the season, which has them tied for 6th in the NFL.  Ten of those sacks occurred in the first 4 weeks of the season, while the offensive line was beginning to learn how to play together.  Brady has basically been untouched in the past 4-5 weeks against some of the best defenses, and best pass rushes, in all of football.  They pass when they want, and when they choose to run, like they did against Indy last week, they just pound the fucking defense into oblivion.  
 
Your Brady could be healthier argument is basically the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site, and I'm shocked that more folks haven't jumped in and piled onto that nonsense. The guy isn't hurt, hasn't been hurt, shows no signs of being hurt and hasn't so much as had to pick himself up off the ground more than a few times per game in the past month.  Mankins, who IMO flat out sucked in pass protection in recent memory (and anyone who has paid attention to the debacle that is TB would probably agree with, they've given up 32 sacks, fwiw, 25th in the NFL), wouldn't have made them any better, because they pretty much can't be any better.  Weakest link on the team?  If the entire team was playing as well as the O Line is playing, the Pats would be winning every week in blowout fashion.  Oh wait, they are.  I was really hoping your first post in this thread was a Riboflav tongue-in-cheek kind of thing, but it just got worse from there. 
 
The strange thing is that you weren't really a "sky is falling, this trade sucks, BB is an asshole" type of guy when the trade happened, so it's not like you have a bunch of shit posts that you're trying to rationalize, so i have no idea why this is even an argument.  It's just all sorts of strange.  FTR, here's what I wrote at the time:
 
I love this deal.  Absolutely love it.  Just as much as I hated the way the Pats drafted this year.  Aaron Hernandez was the most important offensive player, when it came to game planning, not named Brady.  He was the guy that created the matchups that got Gronk open, allowed the holes to open in the running game, and kept guys like Welker (now Edelman) and the outside receivers from being double covered.  They moved him all over the field, from the far outside to the backfield to the slot and everywhere in between.  I've said for some time that the loss of AH was a bigger blow to the offense than the injuries to Gronk, and while Wright is not exactly like Hernandez, he accomplishes a lot of the same that AH did, when it comes to how they can use him in the game plan.  He may very well be the next closest guy to AH in the entire league when you actually look around. He can't block, but he isn't going to be asked to block very often.  The Pats passing game opens up their running game, and not the other way around, and this opens up their passing game. 
 
Mankins was clearly on the downside, he's expensive, and BB got more for him now than he would get at any point after today.  We've had issues on the O Line in the past, but this team is almost a mortal lock for the playoffs barring some sort of apocalyptic injuries, so there is a ton of time for that group to come together throughout the season.  The fourth round pick was just a cherry on top, and if it leads to a Revis extension, well, that's a big ass second helping of ice cream.

I fucking love this trade, and I think folks are going to love Timothy Wright when they see him play.  He's the new breed of TE, the TE2 that really is more of a WR/TE.  We used to say when the Pats had Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, etc., "how do you cover them all?"  I think we'll be saying that again with Wright in short order.  He's a player.  54 catches last year with flotsam and jetsum throwing the ball to him is no small feat, especially when you consider they also had no running game after Doug Martin got hurt, so he was facing a ton of double coverage. 
 
I couldn't be happier.  Time to go re-sort my TE rankings for my upcoming FFL drafts.  Wright just became a top 10 TE. 
 
 

 
He's caught 23 of his 25 targets and doesn't play a ton of snaps.  He's got all the tools I noted then, and I'm excited to see him play another year in this system. I expect his usage to increase more and more as the season goes on.  FTR, he'll be around 15th or 16th in FFL after this weekend's games end.  Top 10 is well within reach.  
 

Shelterdog

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Feb 19, 2002
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Deathofthebambino said:
 
This is like the fucking twilight zone.  Like someone else said, you're basically making an argument that sets you up to be never wrong.  It doesn't matter what actually happened, all that matters is what was happening when the trade was made?  I mean this in all sincerity, but what the fuck are you talking about?  You can't judge a trade just based on how you felt about the trade at the time it happened.  The results of the trade are the only thing that matters.  Sure, if someone gets hurt immediately after a trade, it wouldn't make the trade a bad one at the time the trade was made, but it sure as shit makes the trade a bad one in hindsight.  The only difference is whether or not the trade's failure should lead to the GM being destroyed for it. I don't give a flying shit about whether or not the Pats should have traded Mankins or not, which is what you seem to be discussing.  I care about whether or not the trade made the team better. 
 
The interior O Line is "still relatively questionable and the weakest link on the team."  On what planet is that?  They've given up a total of 16 sacks on the season, which has them tied for 6th in the NFL.  Ten of those sacks occurred in the first 4 weeks of the season, while the offensive line was beginning to learn how to play together.  Brady has basically been untouched in the past 4-5 weeks against some of the best defenses, and best pass rushes, in all of football.  They pass when they want, and when they choose to run, like they did against Indy last week, they just pound the fucking defense into oblivion.  
 
Your Brady could be healthier argument is basically the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site, and I'm shocked that more folks haven't jumped in and piled onto that nonsense. The guy isn't hurt, hasn't been hurt, shows no signs of being hurt and hasn't so much as had to pick himself up off the ground more than a few times per game in the past month.  Mankins, who IMO flat out sucked in pass protection in recent memory (and anyone who has paid attention to the debacle that is TB would probably agree with, they've given up 32 sacks, fwiw, 25th in the NFL), wouldn't have made them any better, because they pretty much can't be any better.  Weakest link on the team?  If the entire team was playing as well as the O Line is playing, the Pats would be winning every week in blowout fashion.  Oh wait, they are.  I was really hoping your first post in this thread was a Riboflav tongue-in-cheek kind of thing, but it just got worse from there. 
 
The strange thing is that you weren't really a "sky is falling, this trade sucks, BB is an asshole" type of guy when the trade happened, so it's not like you have a bunch of shit posts that you're trying to rationalize, so i have no idea why this is even an argument.  It's just all sorts of strange.  FTR, here's what I wrote at the time:
 
 
He's caught 23 of his 25 targets and doesn't play a ton of snaps.  He's got all the tools I noted then, and I'm excited to see him play another year in this system. I expect his usage to increase more and more as the season goes on.  FTR, he'll be around 15th or 16th in FFL after this weekend's games end.  Top 10 is well within reach.  
 

Take pity on Phragle.  Something snapped in him when he saw Ryan "Jerry Ferrara on a strict custard diet" Wendell beating the crap out of Suh one-on-one about 15 times. 
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
Agree with Bambino. You had me at "the fucking Twilight Zone."
 
Yeah, that was a fine rant.  Maaloxian, even.  I believe we even have a photo of DotB while he was typing out that post...
 
 

Stitch01

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Jul 15, 2005
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I disagree with Phragle's opinion on the trade, but think he's getting piled on a little hard here.
 
Yeah, Brady being healthier now is a big stretch, and Mankins pass protection hasn't been great in recent years IMO so Im not sure how much of a factor it would have been, but Brady did take a beating the first month of the season and we're a little lucky he got out of that healthy.
 
I also actually agree with Phragle that the interior line is the weakest link and biggest question mark on the team. 
 
They've been pretty good the last six weeks (although sack rate is a bit deceiving, all the research says QB matters at ton there), but given the role that the interior OL played in recent playoff losses, including last year, and given the only personnel change has been Stork for Mankins, that does strike me as the obvious weak point.  .
 
If interior OL isn't the weak point what is?  Front four pass rush maybe?  Its a pretty solid team.
 

RIrooter09

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Jul 31, 2008
7,275
Pass rush/LB depth
 
Edit: Although the additions of Ayers and Casillas have eased the latter quite a bit.
 

Stitch01

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Jul 15, 2005
18,155
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Thought of LB depth too, but not sure they'd be any better off if they lost a guy on the interior OL and the current LB unit>current interior OL unit

#FirstSeedProblems