Our not so long regional nightmare is overMarrero's golden glove never overcame his noodle bat. Waste of a first-round pick.
That would be OK with me, but I'm wondering if the immediate move is to add DeJesus instead.Also opens a 40 man spot. Poyner time?
Scott and Elias being optioned says to me there's a LHR hole. What would they do with DeJesus exactly?That would be OK with me, but I'm wondering if the immediate move is to add DeJesus instead.
I saw a note on roster moves that said DeJesus would be staying with the MLB camp for the duration of ST.That would be OK with me, but I'm wondering if the immediate move is to add DeJesus instead.
Sean McAdam had a story that Dombrowski was shopping Holt around but had no takers.I would have rather dealt Holt and kept Marrero for his defense at multiple infield positions.
They can leave the spot open as long as they want. 40 players is not a requirement for the roster, it's only the maximum. They could carry 30 players on the 40-man roster if they wanted to.Is there a time frame on how long a team can not carry 40 players on the 40 man roster? If there's no immediate requirement to add a player, then I don't see the rush to add a guy like DeJesus. Maybe if they REALLY want Poyner on the roster, but I'm not sure DD feels an urgency to have him ready to go on opening day. Waiting, if it's an option, gives them a little flexibility down the line.
40 years ago he could have been Mark Belanger.I was thinking about him the other day, and decided that if he played in the days where teams kept only 9-10 pitchers, his glove would keep him on a team as a 25th man. Ralph Houk would have loved the guy
Tommy Layne is still with the big league club. I’d imagine ol’ Ichabod gets first crack before Poyner.Scott and Elias being optioned says to me there's a LHR hole. What would they do with DeJesus exactly?
He played at ASU. He probably loves it.I’m sure he’s psyched to be going to Arizona.
Gammons seems to think he's a good fit, at least for the time being. Owings is expected to play a lot of RF while Steven Souza is on the DL.Kind of a weird landing spot - doesn't Arizona already have Owings, Marte, and Ahmed to cover the middle infield on a given day? I mean, I guess he was basically free, but I'm a little surprised there wasn't a team who had a more obvious need for him.
Or Adam Everett 10-15 years ago40 years ago he could have been Mark Belanger.
To be fair I think MM's point was that, in the sixties, SS was a glove first , if not out and out glove only position. So a guy like Marrero would have been a starter on half the teams in baseball.Or Adam Everett 10-15 years ago
Yeah, I was serious. He went to ASU, and works out in Arizona in the winter.
Does Derek Jeter know this?They can leave the spot open as long as they want. 40 players is not a requirement for the roster, it's only the maximum. They could carry 30 players on the 40-man roster if they wanted to.
Does Derek Jeter know this?To be fair I think MM's point was that, in the sixties, SS was a glove first , if not out and out glove only position. So a guy like Marrero would have been a starter on half the teams in baseball.
Yes. Belanger had an 18-year career. He got MVP votes in 3 different seasons, one of which - 1973 - he had an OPS+ of 61. In 1979, with his career winding down, he managed to get into 101 games for the AL-pennant-winning Orioles, while slashing a slightly less than robust .167/.273/.217 (OPS+ of 36).To be fair I think MM's point was that, in the sixties, SS was a glove first , if not out and out glove only position. So a guy like Marrero would have been a starter on half the teams in baseball.
At a time when measuring comparative defensive value with stats was not really possible, and there were far more balls being put into play, increasing the actual value of defensive players. I could easily see how good SS defense could be overvalued in that sort of environment.Yes. Belanger had an 18-year career. He got MVP votes in 3 different seasons, one of which - 1973 - he had an OPS+ of 61. In 1979, with his career winding down, he managed to get into 101 games for the AL-pennant-winning Orioles, while slashing a slightly less than robust .167/.273/.217 (OPS+ of 36).
Yeah, he was a glove only guy. And valued highly for it.
For further reference .. this guy ( a former Red Sock) had a HOF career as an ultimate small ball SS. He cracked an ops+ of 100 once. For a career it was at 86.Yes. Belanger had an 18-year career. He got MVP votes in 3 different seasons, one of which - 1973 - he had an OPS+ of 61. In 1979, with his career winding down, he managed to get into 101 games for the AL-pennant-winning Orioles, while slashing a slightly less than robust .167/.273/.217 (OPS+ of 36).
Yeah, he was a glove only guy. And valued highly for it.
Why not the Patron Saint?Aparicio and Belanger are 2 of the greatest defensive SS of all time. Marrero is never going to be at that level defensively.
If you want to say Ed Brinkman or Bud Harrelson or some other longtime all-glove, no-bat SS, sure.
One of the first sabermetric things I read was Bill James writing why Wade Boggs should bat lead off. He wrote about how the conventional knowledge was that Aparcio was the best leadoff guy in MLB, despite being of negative value as an offensive player.For
For further reference .. this guy ( a former Red Sock) had a HOF career as an ultimate small ball SS. He cracked an ops+ of 100 once. For a career it was at 86.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/aparilu01.shtml
Mind you , the HOF case was mainly built on the 506 career SBs.
I don’t think I (or MM) was implying that Marrero was in their league. Just that he has the skill set required to be an MLB regular in the sixties. Sadly for him he has arrived 50 years too late.Aparicio and Belanger are 2 of the greatest defensive SS of all time. Marrero is never going to be at that level defensively.
If you want to say Ed Brinkman or Bud Harrelson or some other longtime all-glove, no-bat SS, sure.
For whatever reason, the 60s and 70s were definitely a golden age for all glove-no bat shortstops. The MLB-wide wRC+ for the position between 1960 and 1979 was a ghastly 77. For the past twenty years it's been 10 points higher, at 87.At a time when measuring comparative defensive value with stats was not really possible, and there were far more balls being put into play, increasing the actual value of defensive players. I could easily see how good SS defense could be overvalued in that sort of environment.
Sure, although for perspective there were a lot of misses in the first round of that draft. There are several teams who wish they'd taken him before the Sox did and at least gotten some ML value.Marrero's golden glove never overcame his noodle bat. Waste of a first-round pick.
This, despite the fact that the past 20 years include most of Rey Ordonez's career!For whatever reason, the 60s and 70s were definitely a golden age for all glove-no bat shortstops. The MLB-wide wRC+ for the position between 1960 and 1979 was a ghastly 77. For the past twenty years it's been 10 points higher, at 87....
Ed Brinkman hit .203/.259/.279 for Detroit in 1972 for an OPS+ of 58. ZERO stolen bases, 6 HR and under 50 runs scored or RBI in 156 games with 27 XBH's and finished 9th in the MVP voting!!!
Bringing up defense is another interesting facet of this discussion. Now - I'm not trying to suggest Aparicio and Belanger weren't terrific defensive SSs. Merely that defensive reputation was everything and pretty much the only defensive metric was errors. Bill James did a neat study in one of the early abstracts when commenting on a Gold Glove "race" between Cal Ripken (may have been Ozzie) and Larry Bowa. Many old time journalists claimed Bowa was the superior fielder because he made so few errors. On the flip side, Ripken's range factor had about 100 more chances than Bowa. Even after factoring out environment stuff it was pretty clear that, even by such crude tools Ripken was - by far -the better fielder. One suspects that in Belanger's day slick fielding + a low error count = Gold Glove. (Just checked Aparicio - he made a LOT of errors in his first few years in the league)Aparicio and Belanger are 2 of the greatest defensive SS of all time. Marrero is never going to be at that level defensively.
If you want to say Ed Brinkman or Bud Harrelson or some other longtime all-glove, no-bat SS, sure.
Probably the same source as the driver of proliferating slap-n-swipe offenses during the same time: Astroturf, baby!For whatever reason, the 60s and 70s were definitely a golden age for all glove-no bat shortstops. The MLB-wide wRC+ for the position between 1960 and 1979 was a ghastly 77. For the past twenty years it's been 10 points higher, at 87.
Ahem .. Rico Petrocelli says hi!Cards beat Sox in 67 with Dal Maxvill and his 67 OPS+ (227 /297 /.279) at SS.
But Tigers beat Cards in 68 in part by moving Mickey Stanley and his regular season102 OPS+ from CF to SS for WS to replace Ray Oyler (OPS +20 in 247 PAs.) 135 .213 .186 ) , Tom Matchick (OPS+60 in 244.) and Dick Tracewski (43 OPS+). Let them get all 3 of Horton, Kaline and Northrup into the OF.
Chris Speier was the first SS I remember being considered an offensive threat at the time. Looking at the numbers, not so much.
EDIT:The brinkman mention below reminds me that Toby Harrah was another. He was real.
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Another fun stat - Rico had 10 WAR in 1969 - the highest in the AL - and finished 7th in the MVP votingAhem .. Rico Petrocelli says hi!
IIRC he moved to third to make way for the aforementioned Aparicio. Not to mention to fix the George Scott 3b "experiment"Another fun stat - Rico had 10 WAR in 1969 - the highest in the AL - and finished 7th in the MVP voting
He was one of my childhood favorites - it sure is a shame he declined so quickly - plus 1969 is the only year he hit for over .270 (he hit .297 with the then legendary 40 homers) but even as a .260 type hitter with power, and even switching to third base, if he didn't decline drastically after the 1971 season at 28, it looked like a big time career.
Not so sadly if one remembers that players from the 60s & 70s are today a lot closer to their expiration date than today's players are.I don’t think I (or MM) was implying that Marrero was in their league. Just that he has the skill set required to be an MLB regular in the sixties. Sadly for him he has arrived 50 years too late.