Michael Sam could be the first openly gay NFL player

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moondog80

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I don't know a damn thing about the draft either, but Heisman Trophy winners go undrafted all the time.  Similar things happen non-QBs too.  Some guy named Chad Lavalais was the national defensive player of the year in 2003 and lasted until the middle of the 5th round.  There are guys who are great college players who don't project in the NFL, I assume for size/speed reasons.  If Sam was super-productive in college but not projected in the first or second round, I suspect he has some of that in him.
 

NortheasternPJ

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moondog80 said:
I don't know a damn thing about the draft either, but Heisman Trophy winners go undrafted all the time.  Similar things happen non-QBs too.  Some guy named Chad Lavalais was the national defensive player of the year in 2003 and lasted until the middle of the 5th round.  There are guys who are great college players who don't project in the NFL, I assume for size/speed reasons.  If Sam was super-productive in college but not projected in the first or second round, I suspect he has some of that in him.
 
Only 2 Heisman trophy winners in the last 20 years have not been drafted.
 
13 were first round picks. 5 were 5th round or better, 
 
Jason White and Charlie Ward were the only two not drafted and Manziel may be the #1 pick this year. Ward didn't get drafted most likely because he refused to go the NFL unless he was a first round pick.
 
Hardly all the time.
 

JimBoSox9

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jose melendez said:
I don't know a damn thing about the draft, but it's really, really hard for me to imagine the SEC defensive player of the year being undrafted.  It's not going to happen.
 
No, but there's a real solid chance that 1st round streak ends.  KFP/Mauf spat aside, before this weekend the word on Sam since the Senior Bowl was that he showed unimpressively and he was slipping from his initial rankings.  Of course, now we know the scouts had some idea of Sam's sexual preference around that time, so I dunno how much we can rely on the objectivity of those reports.
 
So, the problem is that Sam's general draft ranking, at least for now, is open to interpretation - anything between 1-4 is reasonably possible.  That makes it pretty much impossible to tease out an honest 3-4th round projection (or eventually, selection) from a biased one.  Which won't stop the media from opining on it anyways.  What a mess this will be.
 
 
As an aside: the reaction of Mizzou (as far as my FB news feed can see) has been loud, supportive, and even more unified than I would have hoped.  It's all pretty good stuff.  A little bit funny to see a few folks jump on the Tiger train.  A few weeks ago things didn't feel headed that way.  Angels, demons, and people.  
 

moondog80

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NortheasternPJ said:
 
Only 2 Heisman trophy winners in the last 20 years have not been drafted.
 
13 were first round picks. 5 were 5th round or better, 
 
Jason White and Charlie Ward were the only two not drafted and Manziel may be the #1 pick this year. Ward didn't get drafted most likely because he refused to go the NFL unless he was a first round pick.
 
Hardly all the time.
  Fair enough.   But, Danny Wuerfull was picked in the 4th round.  Troy Smith was picked in the 5th round.   Gino Toretta was picked in the 7th round.  Ty Detmer was picked in a round that doesn't exist anymore (9th).  Shane Matthews didn't win the Heisman but was SEC player of the year twice, and he was undrafted.  The point that NCAA greatness does not always translate to the draft still stands.
 

soxfan121

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moondog80 said:
  Fair enough.   But, Danny Wuerfull was picked in the 4th round.  Troy Smith was picked in the 5th round.   Gino Toretta was picked in the 7th round.  Ty Detmer was picked in a round that doesn't exist anymore (9th).  Shane Matthews didn't win the Heisman but was SEC player of the year twice, and he was undrafted.  The point that NCAA greatness does not always translate to the draft still stands.
 
This argument would be more convincing if it weren't entirely about QBs. Because the player is a DE. 
 
Yes, great players in college aren't always drafted high in the pros. But they are drafted. SEC Defensive Players of the Year get drafted, for the past 10 years, in the first round. Players nominated for major awards get drafted. There may be one or two examples (that aren't QBs) of those guys going undrafted but most of the time, those type of players get drafted. No one thought Sam was a first rounder yesterday and no one thinks he's a first rounder today. Yesterday, he was somewhere in the top 150 players. Today, he's still among the top 150 prospects on most lists. Put all of it together and it indicates that he almost certainly will be drafted. 
 

Chief Wahoo

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It's certainly possible, but consider what we can most likely safely infer at this point: he's honest, forthright and courageous, plays hard, and has the respect and support of his teammates. It's not out of the question there are other character issues, but this is a good start, so one wonders what they expect to find--maybe he's a bad tipper or something?
 
Yea, those were attributes I didn't consider when taking a devil's advocate position.  All in all he seems like a good kid from what I've read.
 
But what about those rumors (that I'm inventing right now) that he prefers cats over dogs?  That could be a game changer for me.
 

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Whatever happens in the draft, he's likely to find himself in some team's training camp fighting for a job.
 
It won't be all unicorns and rainbows in the lockerroom/on the field - but I think he'll have more difficulty just being the rookie trying to compete with the pros, while satisfying the media, than dealing with the homophobia.  
 

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Sure, but they came to the Pats as similar projects--6'2" DE types who were being converted to something else.  Of course Ninkovich went back to being a DE.
Oh, I get it.  It's just what you were responding to was BB's draft strategy, so I thought you were using them of examples of it.  No biggie.
 

ivanvamp

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Given what we know about Sam, if he is available in the third round, would you guys want NE to take him?

I think I would,maybe even second round. Though I admit to not really knowing how his game would translate to the pros. But he's obviously a really good football player and a potential impact player, and the Pats sure could use some more of those.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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ivanvamp said:
Given what we know about Sam, if he is available in the third round, would you guys want NE to take him?

I think I would,maybe even second round. Though I admit to not really knowing how his game would translate to the pros. But he's obviously a really good football player and a potential impact player, and the Pats sure could use some more of those.
 
He doesn't really fit the team. We need pass rush from the DE/DT position. He doesn't have enough size.
 
Edit: He reminds me of Melvin Ingram. The Pats need a more explosive presence on the front line opposite of Chandler.
 

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ivanvamp

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Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
He doesn't really fit the team. We need pass rush from the DE/DT position. He doesn't have enough size.
 
Edit: He reminds me of Melvin Ingram. The Pats need a more explosive presence on the front line opposite of Chandler.
This team could always use more terrific football players, in nearly every spot. If they think he's a terrific player, then he's worth picking.
 

mwonow

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Belichick has weighed in (via ESPN Boston), with a very BB response:
 
“We evaluate all the players, including Michael Sam, based on the totality of who they are and who can best contribute to our team and organization, regardless of the matters being discussed today. They all have strengths, they all have weaknesses and no two human beings are identical. Our scouting staff has performed extensive work on Michael, both this season and going back throughout his career. That work will continue through the draft process this spring."
 

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ivanvamp said:
Given what we know about Sam, if he is available in the third round, would you guys want NE to take him?

I think I would,maybe even second round. Though I admit to not really knowing how his game would translate to the pros. But he's obviously a really good football player and a potential impact player, and the Pats sure could use some more of those.
 
It depends on how much 4-3 the Pats end up playing. If they play a lot of 3-4, then I don't think he'd be a fit. From what I've read about the Senior Bowl, where Sam played 3-4 OLB, he rushed the QB well but was more lost in space than Will Robinson.
 
The biggest knock on him is his age. At 24, how's he going to project playing a new position? For a frame of reference there are 28 Patriots on the roster or injured/NFI who are 24 or younger.  
 
I really enjoyed watching him play in college and hope a team that needs a rush 4-3 DE picks him. 
 

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mwonow said:
Belichick has weighed in (via ESPN Boston), with a very BB response:
 
“We evaluate all the players, including Michael Sam, based on the totality of who they are and who can best contribute to our team and organization, regardless of the matters being discussed today. They all have strengths, they all have weaknesses and no two human beings are identical. Our scouting staff has performed extensive work on Michael, both this season and going back throughout his career. That work will continue through the draft process this spring."
 
"We don't have anything to add to the statement."
"That's addressed by the statement."
"Nothing to add at this time."
"That's in the statement."
"STATEMENT, Albert."
 

Phragle

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Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
He doesn't really fit the team. We need pass rush from the DE/DT position. He doesn't have enough size.
 
Edit: He reminds me of Melvin Ingram. The Pats need a more explosive presence on the front line opposite of Chandler.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
To play where though?
 
Who cares? If he's a good enough player, and you can get him later, then who cares if he's not a starter or doesn't fit perfectly?
 
Infield Infidel said:
It depends on how much 4-3 the Pats end up playing. If they play a lot of 3-4, then I don't think he'd be a fit. From what I've read about the Senior Bowl, where Sam played 3-4 OLB, he rushed the QB well but was more lost in space than Will Robinson.
 
The biggest knock on him is his age. At 24, how's he going to project playing a new position? For a frame of reference there are 28 Patriots on the roster or injured/NFI who are 24 or younger.  
 
I really enjoyed watching him play in college and hope a team that needs a rush 4-3 DE picks him.
 
What's the difference between Sam and Jarvis Jones of last year?
 
Both had great stats for a great defense, but Jones has spinal stenosis, is 6'2" 245 and ran a 4.90 40. He was picked in the middle of the first. Sam is 6'2" 260 and should have better across the board measurables than Jones.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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ivanvamp said:
Wherever Belichick thinks he can help the most.
 
What round it's in matters. If it's the second round for what would be a backup or rush specialist I don't see it happening unless he's a demon on ST. We all know BB and how much he puts on versatility.
 
phragle said:
 
Who cares? If he's a good enough player, and you can get him later, then who cares if he's not a starter or doesn't fit perfectly?
 
I agree if it's the 4th or later.
 

Infield Infidel

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phragle said:
 
Who cares? If he's a good enough player, and you can get him later, then who cares if he's not a starter or doesn't fit perfectly?
 
 
What's the difference between Sam and Jarvis Jones of last year?
 
Both had great stats for a great defense, but Jones has spinal stenosis, is 6'2" 245 and ran a 4.90 40. He was picked in the middle of the first. Sam is 6'2" 260 and should have better across the board measurables than Jones.
 
Jones played 3-4 LB throughout college, and was 23 when drafted and went to a team that runs a 3-4. He had 3 years of experience covering TEs and guys coming out of the backfield. Sam played 4-3 DE throughout college, is 24 (Jones is 3 months younger), and didn't cover anyone except for maybe the odd zone blitz here and there. His job was to rush the QB pretty much every play. I know the Senior Bowl is just one game, but is his awareness in space and agility in space were knocked. Could he eventually play 3-4 OLB? Sure but in the maybe two years it'll take to get to that point, he'll be 26. Or a team could put him in as a rush DE, and get some solid production from him right away.
 
I think his ceiling is as a poor-man's Elvis Dumervil, which would be a very good player. Dumervil was a 4th round pick due to size. After a few years in the league Dumervil was able to make the transition to 3-4 OLB when McDaniels went to Denver, but he had 3 years of NFL experience and 26 sacks under his belt as a DE before the switch. 
 
Edit- That said, the Pats probably played more sub packages than anything last season, so he could be a good fit if they are more playing 4 down lineman in passing situations, backing up Jones and Nink. 
 

Super Nomario

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ivanvamp said:
This team could always use more terrific football players, in nearly every spot. If they think he's a terrific player, then he's worth picking.
The Patriots tend not to think this way - they think about how a player is going to fit into their team, what role he is going to play, how his strengths and weaknesses compare to who they already have, etc. - and not just best player available. Holley's two books on the Patriots make this apparent. They tend to have stricter height / weight requirements than most teams.
 
Shelterdog said:
Sure, but they came to the Pats as similar projects--6'2" DE types who were being converted to something else.  Of course Ninkovich went back to being a DE.
Jermaine Cunningham is another example I thought of - he was 6'3" 266 lbs at the Combine, just 1-1.5 inches taller than Sam and similar weight, and they took him in the second round. He was ostensibly drafted as a 3-4 OLB but played more DE in 4-man fronts than anything, and last year he played a lot of DT. On the hand he's not exactly a success story.
 
Jamie Collins, for that matter, isn't too dissimilar on paper, a college DE at 6'3" 250, but I think he underscores the problem with Sam. Collins had played LB previously and clearly had the athleticism to do so. That's a lot more open question with Sam, who didn't play drop into coverage much at Missouri and hasn't shown that kind of explosive athleticism.
 
phragle said:
What's the difference between Sam and Jarvis Jones of last year?
 
Both had great stats for a great defense, but Jones has spinal stenosis, is 6'2" 245 and ran a 4.90 40. He was picked in the middle of the first. Sam is 6'2" 260 and should have better across the board measurables than Jones.
I think the big difference is that while both guys fit more in terms of size into a 3-4, Jones actually played in one in college, while Sam is a projection into that system (and as noted above, did not do well in the role at the Senior Bowl). EDIT: or what II said.
 
mwonow said:
Belichick has weighed in (via ESPN Boston), with a very BB response:
 
“We evaluate all the players, including Michael Sam, based on the totality of who they are and who can best contribute to our team and organization, regardless of the matters being discussed today. They all have strengths, they all have weaknesses and no two human beings are identical. Our scouting staff has performed extensive work on Michael, both this season and going back throughout his career. That work will continue through the draft process this spring."
It's too bad I don't see much of a football fit, because I think the Patriots would be great in terms of not letting it be a distraction. The only thing I think Belichick would be concerned about is Sam himself being distracted - would all the media, story etc. detract from his ability to learn the playbook and do all the other rookie things? But Wade Davis' article in MMQB shows that Sam is serious about football, and that the decision to come out is about removing distractions so he can focus on football:
[Sam] came to [his current agents] after dumping a previous agency, because he felt they were too focused on him coming out and not focused enough on football. Empire Athletes is a small agency, which is ideal for any challenges Michael will face; he’s going to need guys to be there for him through his historic rookie season.
 
With Bragman’s help, they’ll navigate through the onslaught of media requests, and ensure that Michael finds a place to work out this spring free from distractions. I’ll do what I can to help. As I told him, “I know you’re a football guy. You know you’re a football guy. And we need to make sure everyone else knows that.”
That sounds like a Pats player. His pioneering role will undoubtedly make him an icon for equality, but it sounds like what he really wants now is just to succeed in football.
 

Tony C

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Infield Infidel said:
 
 
Edit- That said, the Pats probably played more sub packages than anything last season, so he could be a good fit if they are more playing 4 down lineman in passing situations, backing up Jones and Nink. 
 
Hasn't there been a lot of talk about a 4-2-5, which sounds like a good match for Sam's skills.
 

Tony C

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Here's a good chunk of Kiper on Sam, seems relatively well informed:
 
 
Michael Sam is going to be drafted for his football ability, and because some team believes Sam's usefulness as a pass-rusher can help it win. How useful he can be is a question, because the sample size of really good play from him is small, and there are questions about his versatility. But he has the potential to help a team, and I've had him as a likely early third-day pick for a while. I still think that's a likely landing spot.
...
• If you see a wide range in perception of Sam's draft stock, from mid-rounder to free agent -- that's totally normal. Just because I say he's a fourth- or fifth-round talent on my board doesn't mean that's gospel. Some could have him with a third-round grade, some a seventh. But grades don't happen until teams know how he fits. If a range seems huge, that's because it probably is, especially before the combine. Teams are still all over the map on many players.
....
As for the player:
On ability, I see Sam as a guy likely to go in the fourth or fifth round. What he can do is pressure the QB, using good quickness to try to beat defenders off the edge (though he doesn't bend terribly well to turn the corner) and a high motor to finish plays and come up with sacks or tackles for loss maybe some others wouldn't get. He is not a refined pass-rusher at this point, but he's a capable one with some upside.
Where Sam's potential is a concern is he's undersized to project at 4-3 defensive end, and won't hold up in the run game in particular. However, we also haven't seen him play in reverse, or really drop back into coverage as a 3-4 outside linebacker. Can he learn that? Absolutely. But he'll go later in the draft because he's more of a situational pass-rusher now, a likelier bet to give you 20 snaps a game early in his career than 60. Some of his struggles at the Senior Bowl were just because he was doing things he hadn't been asked to do at Missouri. Those struggles are common, but they affect draft stock. I think Sam will test pretty well in Indy, running the 40-yard dash in about 4.7 seconds, with good upper body strength. What he'll need to prove is he can move well and play in space. 
Comps are always difficult, but I was asked about some players who could have been seen in a similar light in terms of football skill set coming into the draft. Here are a few who succeeded in the NFL:
Justin Houston was a better prospect than Sam. He went in Round 3.
Cliff Avril was a better prospect than Sam. He went late in Round 3.
Elvis Dumervil was a slightly better prospect than Sam. He went in Round 4.
Robert Mathis was a comparable prospect on my board, and he went in Round 5.
I see Sam as a draft fit closer to where Dumervil or Mathis went. I really do believe his stock will be built mostly around what he can become as a football player. Evaluators and coaches are hired and fired based on their ability to field a team and win games, and ultimately that starts with getting the best players.
 
 
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2014/story/_/id/10432960/2014-nfl-draft-assessing-michael-sam-draft-stock?addata=2009_insdr_mod_nfl_xxx_xxx
 

Van Everyman

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The league has a policy against discrimination based on sexual orientation and has issued a supportive statement. I think that's a strong enough public stance. Any further steps would probably be more effective if done privately.
I just completely disagree. Within hours of the guy's historic announcement, you had executives condoning bigotry anonymously and callously – now we're reading about how scouts are digging up stuff on him, likely just to justify this type of cowardice.

If you know anything about leading an organization, it's at moments like this that you don't hide behind a piece of paper or "the shield" – you stand up and defend it by condemning it. You remind the public that is there no place in the game for the kind of institutionalized bigotry these guys are spouting – and your own sorry group of "leaders" that this league (as BB himself said in A Football Life) in many ways hastened the cause of integration and tolerance because of its rock solid commitment to excellence, competition and fair play at a time when the rest of the country was being torn apart by these issues.

It's called leadership and however little Goodell has shown on PEDs, concussions and bullying to date, he has a big opportunity to set things straight on this one.
 

Van Everyman

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I should note, btw, that it would appear that The Hand of the Sheriff is behind a bunch of the statements these teams are releasing -- Wilf, BB, etc.

A good start but I don't think the entirety of your leadership in something like this can be done behind the scenes.
 

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NFLPA prez seems pretty positive about it, and not just sportsspeak http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10430944/michael-sam-welcomed-nfl-players-union-open-arms-nflpa-president-domonique-foxworth-says
 
 
"The team's gonna build up around their teammate, and it's going to galvanize the team," Foxworth said. "Everyone's talking about how this could disrupt the locker room. Some NFL locker rooms need disrupting, to be frank. Coaches go through a lot of different things to try to build a bond between the team, and what's going to build a bond more than having a player that all the guys know is kind of a target for opposing fans and maybe a target for opposing players?
"That type of stuff is what makes you build up around a guy, and Missouri seemed to have a pretty good season. So I expect whatever team he goes to is not going to be adversely affected. If anything, they could be positively affected by adding a man like that."
 

Phragle

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Infield Infidel said:
 
Jones played 3-4 LB throughout college, and was 23 when drafted and went to a team that runs a 3-4. He had 3 years of experience covering TEs and guys coming out of the backfield. Sam played 4-3 DE throughout college, is 24 (Jones is 3 months younger), and didn't cover anyone except for maybe the odd zone blitz here and there. His job was to rush the QB pretty much every play. I know the Senior Bowl is just one game, but is his awareness in space and agility in space were knocked. Could he eventually play 3-4 OLB? Sure but in the maybe two years it'll take to get to that point, he'll be 26. Or a team could put him in as a rush DE, and get some solid production from him right away.
 
I think his ceiling is as a poor-man's Elvis Dumervil, which would be a very good player. Dumervil was a 4th round pick due to size. After a few years in the league Dumervil was able to make the transition to 3-4 OLB when McDaniels went to Denver, but he had 3 years of NFL experience and 26 sacks under his belt as a DE before the switch. 
 
Edit- That said, the Pats probably played more sub packages than anything last season, so he could be a good fit if they are more playing 4 down lineman in passing situations, backing up Jones and Nink. 
Super Nomario said:
I think the big difference is that while both guys fit more in terms of size into a 3-4, Jones actually played in one in college, while Sam is a projection into that system (and as noted above, did not do well in the role at the Senior Bowl). EDIT: or what II said.
 
So not much?
 
Tony C said:
 
Hasn't there been a lot of talk about a 4-2-5, which sounds like a good match for Sam's skills.
 
What?
 

Super Nomario

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phragle said:
So not much?
Probably for a lot of teams, there isn't a ton - Jones' stats were a little better and I think he was considered more athletic based on tape even if the Combine numbers might not bear that out - but for a 3-4 team, it's a big deal. You're talking about a plug-and-play guy with experience and production versus a conversion project. I don't think it's a surprise or accident that Jones was drafted by Pittsburgh, which runs a 3-4. I would guess the 4-3 teams might have them rated similarly, but the 3-4 teams are going to be a lot higher on Jones, and they're the ones who detemined where he was drafted.
 
It's worth noting that this draft is a lot stronger than last year's - last year was really weak, particularly at the top, and this year is pretty deep with a ton of underclassmen coming out. Also, Jones is kind of a weird comparison - he didn't exactly have the strongest rookie season in the world. If the disparity between them suggests unfairness, it might mean Jones should have been drafted later, not necessarily that Sam should be drafted earlier.
 

DJnVa

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Yea, those were attributes I didn't consider when taking a devil's advocate position.  All in all he seems like a good kid from what I've read.
 
But what about those rumors (that I'm inventing right now) that he prefers cats over dogs?  That could be a game changer for me.
 
Chief Wahoo---have you chimed in in the thread about the Redskins name change?  :colbert:
 

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Super Nomario said:
Probably for a lot of teams, there isn't a ton - Jones' stats were a little better and I think he was considered more athletic based on tape even if the Combine numbers might not bear that out - but for a 3-4 team, it's a big deal. You're talking about a plug-and-play guy with experience and production versus a conversion project. I don't think it's a surprise or accident that Jones was drafted by Pittsburgh, which runs a 3-4. I would guess the 4-3 teams might have them rated similarly, but the 3-4 teams are going to be a lot higher on Jones, and they're the ones who detemined where he was drafted.
 
It's worth noting that this draft is a lot stronger than last year's - last year was really weak, particularly at the top, and this year is pretty deep with a ton of underclassmen coming out. Also, Jones is kind of a weird comparison - he didn't exactly have the strongest rookie season in the world. If the disparity between them suggests unfairness, it might mean Jones should have been drafted later, not necessarily that Sam should be drafted earlier.
 
I was about to post something similar. There's a lesson from the Vince Redds of the world and it's that athletic ability--let alone football ability--are a lot more complex than height/weight/40 times. Flexibility, balance, fluidity, body control, endurance, explosivenss, and hand eye coordination are some of your more prominent examples of why a guy like Jones might be a better athlete and prospect than a guy like Sam (and why a team picked him in the first even if his forty sucked). 
 
To move it back to Sam this is pretty cool show of support at Mizzou. I find it heartwarming that the initial public reaction to his announcement has overwhelmingly been one of support and pride.
 
 

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Derrick Burgess  6'2 266 
Elvis Dumervil 6'0 255
Robert Mathis 6'2 235  !!!!  
Chandler Jones 6'5 247
Demarcus Ware 6'4 247
Rob Ninkovich 6'3 251
Chandler Jones 6'5 247
Osi Umenyiora 6'3 280
Jonathan Massaquoi 6'2 264
Terell Suggs 6'3 260
Andre Carter 6'4 265
 
 
And thats 5 mins on Profootball ref.
 
until we see his combine numbers there is no way we can say he is not a legit pro from his currently known measurables.  He could get slotted in on the other side of Jones and be a QBs worse nightmare for the next 10 years.
 
Is he the "traditional"  Bill Belicheck Long Heavy DE from his classic 3-4 alignment?  No.  But he would be a perfectly reasonable 4-3 Defensive end. BB has even used players of similar build (Burgess as a prime example) before in that role.
 
Sam may suck as an NFL player but it wont be because he s 6'2  and 265.  Lots of really good DEs/Pass Rushing LBers are that size.
 

KiltedFool

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Also note that Jones getting significant snaps in Pittsburgh's defense as a rookie is far out of the ordinary, even for a player who played the 3-4 defense in college.  Injuries pushed a lot of rookies into roles on the 2013 defense well ahead of schedule.  Sam fits the more traditional Pittsburgh mold of a college end who would take 1.5-2 years to apprentice as an outside linebacker in a 3-4 for Lebeau.  But he's old to start that sort of learning curve, so a straight rush end is more likely, as others have said. 
 
I'm sure he gets drafted, hell Pittsburgh probably would look at him as a day three pick if they think he's a fit.  If he's got the basic quicks and a lot of brains a 6th or 7th to see if he can be turned into a speedy inside lb/safety swiss army knife hybrid people have been looking for in big nickel would be a worthwhile gamble.  But that's all projection.  You can project 5th rounders and later.  You need more concrete reasons to draft guys in the higher rounds.
 

Marciano490

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bakahump said:
Derrick Burgess  6'2 266 
Elvis Dumervil 6'0 255
Robert Mathis 6'2 235  !!!!  
Chandler Jones 6'5 247
Demarcus Ware 6'4 247
Rob Ninkovich 6'3 251
Chandler Jones 6'5 247
Osi Umenyiora 6'3 280
Jonathan Massaquoi 6'2 264
Terell Suggs 6'3 260
Andre Carter 6'4 265
 
 
And thats 5 mins on Profootball ref.
 
until we see his combine numbers there is no way we can say he is not a legit pro from his currently known measurables.  He could get slotted in on the other side of Jones and be a QBs worse nightmare for the next 10 years.
 
Is he the "traditional"  Bill Belicheck Long Heavy DE from his classic 3-4 alignment?  No.  But he would be a perfectly reasonable 4-3 Defensive end. BB has even used players of similar build (Burgess as a prime example) before in that role.
 
Sam may suck as an NFL player but it wont be because he s 6'2  and 265.  Lots of really good DEs/Pass Rushing LBers are that size.
 
There are a lot of ways to be 6'2 265.  I'm sure there are a ton of posters here who have the same dimensions as various athletes across the four major sports.  I know nothing about Sam's draft prospects, but making comps solely by height and weight seems a bit of an incomplete approach, even to refute the tweener label.
 

Doug Beerabelli

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I think the NFL GMs not sharing their names in saying drafting him could be a distraction are in a tough position if they wish to comment.   IMHO, the distraction issue is legit - media storm on this is going to be huge because Sam bravely made it public, and is the first to do so.  If it's being said that things were fine at Missou in regard to the distraction issue, that's not an accurate comparison because Sam didn't come out in public while playing there.   If the media knew about it and confirmed it, it went unreported, which makes me believe they didn't confirm it because it would have been reported if it was - the media rarely shows such contstraint these days.
 
  As a GM, if you put your name out there as saying it could be a distraction, or that the potential distraction to your team could affect your draft rating, that's going to get the "That's Bigoted" response, right or wrong as that may be.   If you had two players of equal talent and position to pick from, is the distraction issue not legit to choose the player who'd create less of a distraction?   Hard to say what's the true motivation of the evaluator (bigotedness could lead the equal evaluation).   On the other hand, remining anonymous gets the blanket "Coward and Bigot" treatment.   Putting one's name on the comment only can lead more distraction, possibly lose one's job.   Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
My initial reaction was "Why would anyone comment on this, anonymous or otherwise?"  Some people can't help themselves, I guess.  
 
To be clear, I think it's great that Sam did this incredibly brave thing in coming out, at potential risk to his own future, pocketbook, etc.  Also, I don't believe will be a huge locker room issue once any media storm calms, and will be less of a novelty in the future.
 
Some smart and bold team will get a player for good value, and then hopefully he'll succeed or fail based upon the merit of his skills and effort.  I hope he ends up in the right place.
 

bakahump

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Marciano490 said:
 
There are a lot of ways to be 6'2 265.  I'm sure there are a ton of posters here who have the same dimensions as various athletes across the four major sports.  I know nothing about Sam's draft prospects, but making comps solely by height and weight seems a bit of an incomplete approach, even to refute the tweener label.
Yet we can apply the tweener label based on those alone?  When many "tweeners" are dominate passrushers?
 
I think I was fair.....much fairer then many others....when I said
 
until we see his combine numbers there is no way we can say he is not a legit pro from his currently known measurables.
 

Phragle

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Super Nomario said:
Probably for a lot of teams, there isn't a ton - Jones' stats were a little better and I think he was considered more athletic based on tape even if the Combine numbers might not bear that out - but for a 3-4 team, it's a big deal. You're talking about a plug-and-play guy with experience and production versus a conversion project. I don't think it's a surprise or accident that Jones was drafted by Pittsburgh, which runs a 3-4. I would guess the 4-3 teams might have them rated similarly, but the 3-4 teams are going to be a lot higher on Jones, and they're the ones who detemined where he was drafted.
 
I don't think the conversion product is as big of a deal as it used to be, and there is no reason a 6'2" 260 player has to be pigeonholed into a 3-4. Anyone that picks Sam is going to do it for his pass-rush and run-stopping ability first and foremost.
 
Super Nomario said:
It's worth noting that this draft is a lot stronger than last year's - last year was really weak, particularly at the top, and this year is pretty deep with a ton of underclassmen coming out. Also, Jones is kind of a weird comparison - he didn't exactly have the strongest rookie season in the world. If the disparity between them suggests unfairness, it might mean Jones should have been drafted later, not necessarily that Sam should be drafted earlier.
 
It's just an interesting comparison.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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soxfan121 said:
 
This argument would be more convincing if it weren't entirely about QBs. Because the player is a DE. 
 
 
I was about to post this. QB's sticking after making position switches in the NFL are usually not superstar Heisman winners (think Edelman), and usually their only possible alternative to stick at all is WR. There are less options since the offensive side of the ball has magnified skill positions, and a moving off QB to an entirely new role is an uphill battle, even if the guys are gifted athletes.
 
Sam likely has more options as an NFL player if he shows he can handle it at all. Even if it's not his "native" position from college the curve is probably less sharp to learn a different defensive position, and to be utilized in different ways (special teams, not all 4 downs on D, etc).
 

bakahump

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phragle said:
 
I don't think the conversion product is as big of a deal as it used to be, and there is no reason a 6'2" 260 player has to be pigeonholed into a 3-4. Anyone that picks Sam is going to do it for his pass-rush and run-stopping ability first and foremost.
 
 
It's just an interesting comparison.
 
Agreed Phragle....I think that many people here are trying to say he is a bad fit for the patriots....because traditionally they have had big ends and because they have again traditionally ran a 3-4 (or at least a variety of the 3-4).
 
I think they have moved away from the 3-4 and instead the "base" is a 4-3 (even with Wilfork back).  Even if not a true 4-3 it will be a "nickel 4-3" (IE a 4-2 with some combination of the front 7 personnel and an extra DB).  All that combined with the "Passing NFL"  makes player with Sams size perfectly valid ends. 
 
I dont know if he is fast enough. Or Strong enough.  The Combine will tell us some of that.  What I can say is that 6'2 260 lb people CAN be fast and strong enough to play end in the nfl.
 

Super Nomario

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phragle said:
 
I don't think the conversion product is as big of a deal as it used to be, and there is no reason a 6'2" 260 player has to be pigeonholed into a 3-4. Anyone that picks Sam is going to do it for his pass-rush and run-stopping ability first and foremost.
For some guys the conversion isn't a big deal, but Sam struggled with it at the Senior Bowl: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000316426/article/missouris-michael-sam-struggles-as-linebacker-at-senior-bowl and http://www.kansascity.com/2014/01/21/4767356/sam-seeks-football-identity-at.html  are a couple articles. Before the Senior Bowl, I saw him in the 2nd round range on some of the draft sites, but his performance there hurt him. Maybe that's an overreaction based on one week, but since he doesn't have ideal size for a 4-3 DE, his best road to a high pick was to show some ability in space (as Trent Murphy did) or just dominant explosiveness (as Dee Ford and Aaron Donald did).
 
To play devil's advocate to myself: apparently he was getting questions about his sexuality from scouts during the week of the Senior Bowl, which certainly could have been distracting (and appears to be one of the reasons he came out publicly now). So there could be extenuating circumstances here with his Senior Bowl performance.
 

Marciano490

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bakahump said:
Yet we can apply the tweener label based on those alone?  When many "tweeners" are dominate passrushers?
 
I think I was fair.....much fairer then many others....when I said
 
I agree, insofar as combine numbers are predictive of on the field ability.  My point was that the tweener label shouldn't be used by anyone based on size alone, and from what (admittedly little) I've read of pre-draft reviews and grades, the pros tend to get more into where the weight is distributed and limb/torso length, etc.  That is to say, if someone went up to BB and said, "this guy is 6'2 265, where do you think we should play him,"  he'd obviously have a dozen-plus questions about body type, muscle fiber constitution, etc.
 

Chief Wahoo

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DrewDawg said:
 
Chief Wahoo---have you chimed in in the thread about the Redskins name change?  :colbert:
 
Nope. I've read most of that thread but most of what I would have said had already been said.
 
I've lived in Boston over half my life now  but I was born & raised in Cleveland.  Fan of both teams.  I chose my nickname here simply to be associated with the Cleveland team.  Go Tribe!
 
I do think outrage over offensiveness can sometimes get outrageous.
 

SuperManny

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I hadn't seen this posted yet but I can't believe the father said this publicly.
 
Michael Sam Sr. troubled by news
 
 
Michael Sam Sr. told The New York Times that he received the news last Tuesday when his son wrote in a text: "Dad, I'm gay."
 
Sam's father took the news hard. He said he was eating at a Denny's restaurant but had to leave after receiving the text.
 

"I couldn't eat no more, so I went to Applebee's to have drinks," Sam Sr. told the newspaper. "I don't want my grandkids raised in that kind of environment."
 
Sam Sr., who described himself as "old-school," told the newspaper the idea of a gay player in the NFL bothers him, even when that person could be his own son.

 
He told the newspaper, however, that he loves his son and hopes he makes it into the NFL.
 
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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SuperManny said:
 
I hadn't seen this posted yet but I can't believe the father said this publicly.
 
Michael Sam Sr. troubled by news
 
 
 
 
"The thought of homosexuality is extremely offensive and I hate that my son is one of them there queers.
 
Still, I'd like to see him make it in the NFL because...FREE RIDE, WOOOOOOO!"
 
Stay true to your morals, man.
 

mauf

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SuperManny said:
I hadn't seen this posted yet but I can't believe the father said this publicly.

Michael Sam Sr. troubled by news
Sam's parents are not together. Sam said his family was supportive. This story says he broke the news to his dad by text just before he told the entire known universe. Doing the math, I'm going to guess that Sam's dad isn't very involved in his life.

Now dad is getting his 15 minutes by shitting in his son's dreams, kind of like Cam Newton's father did. Fuck those guys. But especially fuck Mr. Sam -- whatever his past relationship with his son has been, he had a chance to do something good for his son at a moment when he could really use the support, and he chose to do the opposite.

How incredibly sad -- I just can't wrap my head around it.
 

dcmissle

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Sad but very common among African American men, particularly of his generation. That will be an under reported aspect of this story because it is politically awkward. We like our villains to be convenient. So it has been said a lot over the last few days that this would not go over very well in Dallas, for example. And justifiably so. But it would go over no easier in many precincts in Washington DC.
 
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