Michael Sam rides off to Montreal

HomeRunBaker

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Ferm Sheller said:
History is filled, and I mean filled, with draft picks, and especially late round ones, who don't make their draft team's 53 or PS.  Is it that unreasonable to think that this guy is just another one of that massive group?
Absolutely BUT.......How many notch 3 sacks and 11 tackles in part-time minutes and then deemed unworthy of a spot on your practice squad after all the hoopla being made about his presence in St Louis?

Do you feel another team will sign him to their practice squad this week? I don't. Based on his performance in the pre-season alone there is no doubt he should be.
 

dcmissle

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HomeRunBaker said:
Absolutely BUT.......How many notch 3 sacks and 11 tackles in part-time minutes and then deemed unworthy of a spot on your practice squad after all the hoopla being made about his presence in St Louis?

Do you feel another team will sign him to their practice squad this week? I don't. Based on his performance in the pre-season alone there is no doubt he should be.
Maybe the Rams need to buttress other positions on the practice squad. They are very deep at D-line.

Per the summary of observations of the NFLN crew above, Sam makes plays but has serious limitations, particularly in the areas of size and strength. Jamie Dukes put together a pretty interesting loop of Sam getting flattened or easily pushed out of plays by big o-linemen.

I don't understand how Fisher and the Rams don't get the benefit of the doubt here.

Edit:

Per Mike Silver -- Sam not added to Rams practice squad because of injuries at other positions; Fisher remains a fan.

Per Al Breer -- Door remains open to Sam in St Louis if they get healthier.

Per Michael Sam -- I thank St Louis for this tremendous opportunity to show that I can play at this level.
 

Pete Williams

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HomeRunBaker said:
Absolutely BUT.......How many notch 3 sacks and 11 tackles in part-time minutes and then deemed unworthy of a spot on your practice squad after all the hoopla being made about his presence in St Louis?

Do you feel another team will sign him to their practice squad this week? I don't. Based on his performance in the pre-season alone there is no doubt he should be.
 
You have to do more than look at some preseason defensive stats and actually watch the tape.  I'm not an NFL expert but Willie McGinest and Charley Casserly broke down the tape and said he was not impressive.  His better plays came against backups and his tackle totals were inflated (Casserly said they gave Sam several tackles that Charley would not have if he was doing the defensive stats).
 
I have a lot of respect for the Rams and I think they gave the guy every benefit of the doubt.  His lack of speed and strength, and lack of special teams ability killed him.  It happens all the time but doesn't get this publicity.  
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Absolutely BUT.......How many notch 3 sacks and 11 tackles in part-time minutes and then deemed unworthy of a spot on your practice squad after all the hoopla being made about his presence in St Louis?

Do you feel another team will sign him to their practice squad this week? I don't. Based on his performance in the pre-season alone there is no doubt he should be.
This ignores many realities about what the Rams think they need to do to build the best football team they can. Based on what the experts are saying about his performance and lack of skills in the non-pass rushing parts of the game then there is a significant amount of reason that teams might be passing for football reasons. Teams don't seem to want a good, but not great pass rusher that is limited in other ways to contribute to the team.

You seem really emotional about this, but objectively as a football player Sam May not hav at place in the NFL. At least not right now.
 

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Devizier said:
I look forward to the day when Sam destroys Tim Tebow on a blindside sack in the CFL.
Only if both players have the talent and ability to make a CFL roster, which is probably not true...

...but I do look forward to seeing Sam play in Canada.

(Actually, they're both on Montreal's negotiations list, so that could prevent your scenario, too)
 

HomeRunBaker

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Pete Williams said:
 
You have to do more than look at some preseason defensive stats and actually watch the tape.  I'm not an NFL expert but Willie McGinest and Charley Casserly broke down the tape and said he was not impressive.  His better plays came against backups and his tackle totals were inflated (Casserly said they gave Sam several tackles that Charley would not have if he was doing the defensive stats).
 
I have a lot of respect for the Rams and I think they gave the guy every benefit of the doubt.  His lack of speed and strength, and lack of special teams ability killed him.  It happens all the time but doesn't get this publicity.  
I watched more pre-season football this year than any healthy individual should between the Patriots, Raiders (friends w #55 Sio Moore and his family), Manziel, and Sam. I'm not an NFLN expert but feel i have a decent understaning of basic schemes and techniques needed to be successful. I don't know if it has been reported but Sam has gotten A LOT quicker with much better footwork as camp went on.....weight loss? confidence?

His footwork, quickness and power is why he lived in the backfield so much so the PC explanations by those who may or may not have been told to spin this a certain way raises an eyebrow to me. Another thing......EVERY pre-game show and many news shows in general feature conflicting POV's to generate interest and spark debate so retain the viewer and make them captive. Where was the opposite viewpoint on this show? Too controversial for the NFLN? It doesn't pass the smell test to me nor does Sam not being on a practice squad today. The BS from Fisher is bordering on absurd to me every time he opens his mouth.....too many injuries at other positions? The PS has been expanded to 10, Sam IMO showed worthy of at the very least a spot on it based on his performance and again all the other teams passed? Westbrook impressed vs these same players and his plague is presently being prepared for 2027 induction. Those guys only gave one side......the PC side.

My stance on this from Day One was that teams would run not from Sam the player but from the sideshow much of which is completely out of his hands (but still exists). No coach wants to deal with articles questioning when and where Sam showers with it even being discussed in the locker room......the players click those links too. The Oprah fiasco was 100% on him (or his agent/team) but the other stuff follows him and it's why he's unployed today and probably won't ever see an NFL snap again.
 

dcmissle

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You have failed to present a single fact that would support a reasonable person questioning Fisher's good faith. You have failed to respond to the fact that the Rams are deep at DL and thin elsewhere, hence the composition of their practice squad. Finally, you have failed to articulate a motive why the Rams, if they were so dead set against Sam, would have drafted him in the first place.

All innuendo, no facts.
 

HomeRunBaker

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dcmissle said:
You have failed to present a single fact that would support a reasonable person questioning Fisher's good faith. You have failed to respond to the fact that the Rams are deep at DL and thin elsewhere, hence the composition of their practice squad. Finally, you have failed to articulate a motive why the Rams, if they were so dead set against Sam, would have drafted him in the first place.

All innuendo, no facts.
Of course it's innuendo there are no facts only observation. Are there any facts as to why the Patriots kept one OL over another? If I'm coming across as presenting as if these are facts I apologize I know I tend to do this when I feel strongly about a topic as I have this one from his original announcement.

If you want a conspiracy theory it's that Fisher drafted Sam on behalf of Goodell and the NFL with the built-in excuse of depth at his position. I'm not going that far as to claim this but I'd be lying if the thought hasn't crossed my mind. If Sam never again dons an NFL I may revisit this idea.
 

ethangl

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HomeRunBaker said:
I feel strongly about a topic as I have this one from his original announcement.
 
So it sounds like you decided he should make the roster before he ever played a snap.
 
There's a reason you've heard of Michael Sam and you haven't heard of Jayrone Elliott -- turning that reason into evidence of a conspiracy _against_ Sam is just... weird.
 

Judge Mental13

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So HRB, do you think that Bill Belichick opted not to roll the dice on Sam because he's gay?
 

soxfan121

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HomeRunBaker said:
My stance on this from Day One was that teams would run not from Sam the player but from the sideshow much of which is completely out of his hands (but still exists). 
 
And yet you've helped build the case that the exact opposite happened. There was no "distraction" - there was just football. Teams are "running" from Sam the player, not Sam the sideshow. It is the film of him playing football that got him cut, not Oprah or reporting on his shower habits. 
 
Sam needed to be given the opportunity any player who starred in college deserves - a chance to win a roster spot. A select few get to be NFL players. A selection process for the job should be based ONLY on football. That's what (most people) think happened here. Fisher and the Rams coached him up (accounting for the difference in his footwork you referenced), gave him game time and ran him through all the evaluations the other 89 guys went through. 
 
The other shit is a sideshow. And it really only matters to people who are fascinated by sideshows, car accidents and salacious gossip about who showers with who. For the NFL, for the Rams, for Sam...this was about football. There's nothing wrong with not being good enough to make an NFL roster. There's a problem in keeping someone off a roster because of a perceived "sideshow" that has nothing to do with the business of winning football games.
 

Cellar-Door

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I live in St Louis, so I've seen all his pre-season games and he's been a topic on local radio/TV. Everyone was excited about him, but Ethan Westbrooks was just better, he had similar production, better athleticism and more flexibility since he could move inside.
 
Sam is a tough pickup for another team from a pure football perspective. He can only play 4-3 DE, that's it, can't move inside, can't stand up, can't really play in a 3-4. He also can't play special teams. Now that's fine if he was an absolute stud pass rusher with explosive speed who you would expect to beat first string LT (say like a young robert mathis). He isn't, putting up good performances in pre-season against 3rd stringers while surrounded by a ton of talent on his D-Line isn't enough to offset his weaknesses for most teams. You're burning a roster spot on a guy who probably doesn't play a down all year unless you have tons of injuries.
 

ZP1

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soxfan121 said:
There's a problem in keeping someone off a roster because of a perceived "sideshow" that has nothing to do with the business of winning football games.
 
 
I think having this attitude is somewhat naive.  If a team needed someone of Michael Sam's abilities, and Michael Sam was competing against an exact clone of Michael Sam (but no media circus on the clone) there's literally zero chance that the team doesn't take the Sam clone over the actual Sam.   Potential media sideshow related stuff absolutely matters, and almost certainly acts as a negative modifier against a player when competing against players of similar skill for a roster spot. 
 

soxfan121

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ZP1 said:
 
 
I think having this attitude is somewhat naive.  If a team needed someone of Michael Sam's abilities, and Michael Sam was competing against an exact clone of Michael Sam (but no media circus on the clone) there's literally zero chance that the team doesn't take the Sam clone over the actual Sam.   Potential media sideshow related stuff absolutely matters, and almost certainly acts as a negative modifier against a player when competing against players of similar skill for a roster spot. 
 
How does it matter in your opinion? And how do you think Jeff Fisher would respond to that opinion?
 

SeoulSoxFan

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I have 100% faith in Rams' & Fisher's intentions -- purely for football reasons and football reasons only. 
 
Having said that, I don't get why he can't find a PS spot somewhere else based on his PS production, other than the fact that teams do not want a PS player bringing a lot of attention (some would say "distraction"). 
 
That's not homophobic, but can't bring myself to say that it has nothing to do with Sam's sexual orientation either.
 

Tony C

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yeah, SSF's take is pretty much mine. The tough thing talking about football compared to baseball is in baseball I feel much, much more comfortable questioning baseball GMs -- stats matter a ton more, and guys going through the minors leave much more of a trail. In football, whether it's Sam or Mallett or Quarles the amount of info we have is so limited that almost have to defer to a deferential position to those with power (which is a painful thing in the internet age!). Even guys who brag about watching a lot of tape are still just getting snippets of the full picture.
 
The flip is we know the decision-making guys are no more infallible than the guys running baseball clubs who we can more easily prove are idiots. But it's harder to nail down....certainly at this stage.
 
edit: that said -- and I can't say this is uninfluenced by political bias -- I have seen most of Sam's snaps and even if Sam is a couple of inches shorter I'll be damned how I see what he lacks that Jake "has barely made a play in his entire 3 year career" Bequette has. But I totally get that its really inarguable beyond that given our limited info, so whatever.
 

HomeRunBaker

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soxfan121 said:
 
And yet you've helped build the case that the exact opposite happened. There was no "distraction" - there was just football. Teams are "running" from Sam the player, not Sam the sideshow. It is the film of him playing football that got him cut, not Oprah or reporting on his shower habits. 
 
Sam needed to be given the opportunity any player who starred in college deserves - a chance to win a roster spot. A select few get to be NFL players. A selection process for the job should be based ONLY on football. That's what (most people) think happened here. Fisher and the Rams coached him up (accounting for the difference in his footwork you referenced), gave him game time and ran him through all the evaluations the other 89 guys went through. 
 
The other shit is a sideshow. And it really only matters to people who are fascinated by sideshows, car accidents and salacious gossip about who showers with who. For the NFL, for the Rams, for Sam...this was about football. There's nothing wrong with not being good enough to make an NFL roster. There's a problem in keeping someone off a roster because of a perceived "sideshow" that has nothing to do with the business of winning football games.
Of course I expect those defending this "football decision" to even mention Optah and the shower article......then blindly say it doesn't count at all. What else doesn't count that we are not privy to?
 

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Tony C said:
edit: that said -- and I can't say this is uninfluenced by political bias -- I have seen most of Sam's snaps and even if Sam is a couple of inches shorter I'll be damned how I see what he lacks that Jake "has barely made a play in his entire 3 year career" Bequette has. But I totally get that its really inarguable beyond that given our limited info, so whatever.
Good reminder (since they both played in the SEC):
Michael Sam career: 111 tackles, 32.5 for loss, 18.5 sacks, 2 INT, 4 PD, 5 FF
Jake Bequette career: 126 tackles, 31 for loss, 23.5 sacks, 0 INT, 7 PD, 8 FF
Michael Sam 2013: 48 tackles, 19 for loss, 11.5 sacks, 2 PD, 2 FF
Jake Bequette 2011: 28 tackles, 10.5 for loss, 10 sacks, 1 PD, 5 FF (missed 3 games)
 
The NFL is hard, yo.
 

Cellar-Door

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Super Nomario said:
Good reminder (since they both played in the SEC):
Michael Sam career: 111 tackles, 32.5 for loss, 18.5 sacks, 2 INT, 4 PD, 5 FF
Jake Bequette career: 126 tackles, 31 for loss, 23.5 sacks, 0 INT, 7 PD, 8 FF
Michael Sam 2013: 48 tackles, 19 for loss, 11.5 sacks, 2 PD, 2 FF
Jake Bequette 2011: 28 tackles, 10.5 for loss, 10 sacks, 1 PD, 5 FF (missed 3 games)
 
The NFL is hard, yo.
Also Bequette is bigger, faster, jumps higher, plays multiple positions and had a bigger contract since he was drafted in the 3rd.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Of course it's innuendo there are no facts only observation. Are there any facts as to why the Patriots kept one OL over another? If I'm coming across as presenting as if these are facts I apologize I know I tend to do this when I feel strongly about a topic as I have this one from his original announcement.

If you want a conspiracy theory it's that Fisher drafted Sam on behalf of Goodell and the NFL with the built-in excuse of depth at his position. I'm not going that far as to claim this but I'd be lying if the thought hasn't crossed my mind. If Sam never again dons an NFL I may revisit this idea.
Sam has never been a highly-rated pro prospect. Never. As such, he is a poor measure for how the NFL, a single team, or a single coach may view him. This opens the issue up to this line of questioning, which unfortunately, no one will ever be able to provide an adequate answer to. It's possible you're right, but it's also very possible you're wrong, and at this level of talent, it's really, really hard to separate fact from fiction. What will be the true test is when you have a highly-rated player who comes out as gay, and then watching how the league and individuals react. Right now, it's so easy to get sucked in to any story on either side, because it can be spun either way if you want.

My personal view is that I trust people who tell me shit until evidence presents itself that they are lying. Given that no one has been able to produce that to this point, I trust Jeff Fisher's statement that this was a football move, but am open to changing my opinion if new facts come out. So far, try haven't. At the end of the day, it's Fisher's ass on the line if his team doesn't perform, so I don't see any reason for him to lie on this.
 

soxfan121

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HomeRunBaker said:
Of course I expect those defending this "football decision" to even mention Optah and the shower article......then blindly say it doesn't count at all. What else doesn't count that we are not privy to?
 
YOU mentioned both of them. You do read your own posts, right?
 

Chemistry Schmemistry

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I watched more pre-season football this year than any healthy individual should between the Patriots, Raiders (friends w #55 Sio Moore and his family), Manziel, and Sam. I'm not an NFLN expert but feel i have a decent understaning of basic schemes and techniques needed to be successful. I don't know if it has been reported but Sam has gotten A LOT quicker with much better footwork as camp went on.....weight loss? confidence?
Two players are never clones of each other. While the hypothetical may be true (media distraction would make a difference if the players are truly equal - it could be media distraction because the player was once jailed for breeding dogs to fight, for instance), it's not a hypothetical that's ever in play.

The facts, as Fisher stated them, were that Sam worked hard, has talent, but is limited to a specific scheme and can't play special teams. He had decent production in camp against players who will never play a down in the NFL (starting offensive linemen play a higher percentage of their teams' snaps than any position). Are you saying you know more about the Rams' training camp than the coach? Or are you just calling Fisher a liar?

Right now, his only value is on the practice squad of a 43 team that has an iffy injury situation with its DE rotation. But, since teams tend to store players on their practice squads who are familiar with their teams' playbooks, a fringe player who doesn't make a 53 and isn't on that team's practice squad doesn't have a lot of hope.

Sam should continue to work out and maintain contact with the Rams. He's saying the right things, and he could well get a phone call later this season. And he'd definitely get a call for training camp next summer if he stays in shape.

The only thing an accusation of bias will accomplish will be to increase the negative media perception for future players. I don't think it will change anything, because players are not clones and everything in the NFL is about winning. However, if you're right, you are actually part of the problem rather than part of the solution. *Your* accusations are the factor preventing an openly gay man from playing in the NFL.
 

ZP1

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soxfan121 said:
 
How does it matter in your opinion? And how do you think Jeff Fisher would respond to that opinion?
 
Because of the two options...
 
Player A (standard NFL player, little press coverage)
 
Player B (Massive press sideshow, requires coach and assorted personnel to think about how to deal with the press for non football related reasons) 
 
 
If both players are roughly equivalent in skill, why would you ever subject yourself to dealing with Player B?  The problem Sam has is that he's likely good enough to play in the NFL in some capacity, but he's also in a borderline class where there's a lot of other players that can bring a similar level of production to the table.  Fisher would no doubt respond and give the standard football answer of "We'd take the better player" - but that's just the problem. Sam's case is borderline enough that there's a lot of players who are debatable when comparing Sam to them in a head to head.  There's no doubt in my mind that Sam's guarantee of drawing a large amount of media attention effectively acts as a negative tiebreaker for him.  Meaning that if Sam is a close call against any other player in his position, he's going to lose the tiebreaker for the spot in virtually every organization around.  
 

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California. Duh.
FWIW, here are the 10 players that made the Rams practice squad.
 
LB Denicos Allen
WR Emory Blake
S Christian Bryant
DT Matt Conrath
S Matt Daniels
QB Garrett Gilbert
T Sean Hooey
LB Kevin Reddick
WR Justin Veltung
G Brandon Washington
 
They didn't keep any defensive ends, where the team is stacked. Allen was with Carolina and Reddick was with the Saints, the other 8 were all in the Rams camp this offseason.  You will notice there are 2 WR, 2 LB (both from outside the organization), and 2 safeties, all positions where the Rams have injury concerns coming into the season.
 

Tony C

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ZP1 is probably right, or at least that's logical Those painting this as some cut and dry "the NFL powers have spoken, we cannot question them" are ignoring how borderline it would seem Sam's case is.
 
Chuck Z said:
Sam has never been a highly-rated pro prospect. Never. ....

My personal view is that I trust people who tell me shit until evidence presents itself that they are lying....
 
Well, this is simply false. At the time Sam came out he was rated a 3rd rounder by whatever that central scouting bureau is. He then dropped, and I don't doubt that there were some legit reasons for that, but as noted some of the anonymous quotes from NLF sources stated this slide also had something to do with his coming out. http://thebiglead.com/2014/02/10/michael-sam-fell-70-spots-on-cbs-draft-board-overnight/ for an overview, see also: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/michael-sam-gay-nfl-draft/
 
I said much the same as you that I basically trust Fisher and don't doubt that no team is actively self-sabotaging. That'd be idiotic. That said, it is a curious case. I totally cop that my own biases bias me in favor of making the case for Sam. You're saying the opposite isn't what happens, as well? That's just contrary to basic social science. It's perfectly possible to hold a nuanced view and recognize that there's no reason to assume that Sam is a slam dunk NFLer, nor any reason to assume that just because he's currently not a squad that he's unqualified. It'd be too harsh to assume you're lying about Sam's pre-coming out draft rep, to the contrary I assume you just forgot and, to the point, misremembered because that suited your pre-existing biases (against Sam as a football player, not as a gay man). I think that's a fair assumption to make.
 
I'll just add that everyone jumps on the Bequette comparisons as if they somehow show Bequette is superior because...what, 2 or 3 inches taller?  Football is about production: Forget the NFL history of players who were SEC DPYs, Sam did way more in 4 preseason games than Bequette has done in 3 years of preseason games (virtually always against scrubs) and 8 regular season games. During those regular season games I'll add up the total of every positive stat Bequette compiled: 0+0+0+...
 
I'll say what I said before: I completely recognize the indeterminancy of information that makes it impossible for me to say that Michael Sam absolutely has a place in the NFL and this is about bias. I also think that same lack of information makes the opposite case hard to make, particularly when we see some of the guys who we can be pretty certain are nothings are getting PS slots.
 

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Because of that indeterminacy of information, I dearly hope that the supporters of Michael Sam take the high road as he has. Out of basic fairness to others, but also to protect Sam.

One stupid high profile attack piece -- for example, a typical Deadspin hatchet job, on Fisher -- could hurt the cause and Sam's prospects pretty badly.
 

Tony C

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Are you implying that non-football reasons could have some impact on Sam's football future?
 
:)
 
(p.s.: I agree with your point)
 

soxfan121

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ZP1 said:
 
Because of the two options...
 
Player A (standard NFL player, little press coverage)
 
Player B (Massive press sideshow, requires coach and assorted personnel to think about how to deal with the press for non football related reasons) 
 
 
If both players are roughly equivalent in skill, why would you ever subject yourself to dealing with Player B?  The problem Sam has is that he's likely good enough to play in the NFL in some capacity, but he's also in a borderline class where there's a lot of other players that can bring a similar level of production to the table.  Fisher would no doubt respond and give the standard football answer of "We'd take the better player" - but that's just the problem. Sam's case is borderline enough that there's a lot of players who are debatable when comparing Sam to them in a head to head.  There's no doubt in my mind that Sam's guarantee of drawing a large amount of media attention effectively acts as a negative tiebreaker for him.  Meaning that if Sam is a close call against any other player in his position, he's going to lose the tiebreaker for the spot in virtually every organization around.  
 
Here's the problem with your analysis - there wasn't a "massive press sideshow".  Mike Tanier from SportsonEarth.com wrote about this more than a month ago.
 
EARTH CITY, Mo. -- Hello, my name is Mike Tanier and I am a distraction.
 
I am a national media member who descended on St. Louis Rams camp specifically because openly gay defensive end Michael Sam is on the roster. My presence swells the vulturine press corps and focuses the searing spotlight of national attention on this gritty small-market team trying to go about the business of cracking .500 in professional sports' toughest decision.


 


My arrival presumably caused the Rams to divert attention and resources toward deflecting my judgmental gaze away from their culturally-relevant backup defender. My political-sensitivity Geiger counters disrupts cellphone communication as I scan for the faintest traces of scandal or discrimination.
It's a wonder Jeff Fisher does not swallow his whistle at the mere sight of me. I am like one of the inmates in The Great Escape, determined to make life as difficult as possible for my captors. I am Tony Dungy's worst nightmare.
 
Except that I am very much alone. There are only one or two other national media types here this weekend. Others are coming -- Kurt Warner is scheduled to arrive after I leave -- but national media members tend to make the rounds this time of year. It's really just the St. Louis media on the sidelines, which looks like the Giants or Jets media in the offseason, during a flu epidemic.
 
Insiders tell me the local television presence has been greater than usual, something Jeff Fisher alluded to during rookies-only sessions. But if you saw pictures of Tom Brady or Dez Bryant buried under an avalanche of microphones this week, rest assured nothing like that is happening here, to anyone. This is not a circus. It's not even a church parking lot carnival.
 
 
Nor is it clear that Sam is "good enough" to play in the NFL. I know lots about football but I will defer every day of the week to Willie McGinest's football knowledge. McGinest, among many NFL network analysts/former players, reviewed the tape, showed the tape and spoke to the tape, critiquing Sam's on-field performance. And they say it isn't good enough. I'm not sure how you know he is good enough but if you have something concrete, I'll listen. 
 
Of course, you've answered the question one sentence later by saying that there's lots of other guys with the same level of talent. Which there are. And since Sam didn't play special teams well, he had to be better than a guy with similar pass rush talent who also played on ST. That's a real football reason for Sam not making the 53. 
 
The "distraction" has mostly been people who are opposed (for whatever reason) to the idea of distractions yammering away about distractions. But there's little evidence there was an actual distraction. Fisher said there wasn't. St. Louis beat reporters said there wasn't. National writers like Tanier said there wasn't. Yet...the myth endures that "massive press distraction" was not only present during Rams camp but that the distraction had to factor into the decision because "distractions are bad". 
 
If you simply replaced "distraction" with "play", then you have a very valid argument. Many experts have watched Sam play and many experts have not been impressed with his play. There are valid, reasonable arguments for why Sam's play was not good enough to make a roster. 
 
Now, the problem is that by making this about a "distraction" (that didn't exist), you are explicitly referencing Sam's sexual orientation. You are saying that if Sam wasn't gay he would have made the team or he'd get more opportunities around the league. There's about fifty NFL players and at least one owner who are bigger "distractions" to their teams than Michael Sam was at any point this summer. Ray Rice was a woman-beating distraction. Josh Gordon was a weed-smoking distraction. Jim Irsay was a drunk-driving, pill-popping distraction. No one suggests that these PROVEN distractions cannot or should not play or participate in the league (well, Roger Goodell...but I digress). Several draft picks and UDFAs with a criminal arrest were cut - no one says they are a "distraction".  Only Michael Sam is a "distraction". That's kinda fucked up, right?
 
All I ever wanted was for Sam to get a fair opportunity to make an NFL roster. From everything I've read (and I followed this quite closely), Sam got a fair chance to make the Rams. Jeff Fisher treated him like the other 89 guys in Rams camp. That is all Sam (and anyone) deserves. That he didn't make the team makes me sad but smarter football people than me (Jeff Fisher, Willie McGinest, Mike Tanier) all gave reasonable, thoughtful explanations for Sam being cut. 
 
But, no. It has to be the "distraction". 
 

IdiotKicker

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Tony C said:
Well, this is simply false. At the time Sam came out he was rated a 3rd rounder by whatever that central scouting bureau is. He then dropped, and I don't doubt that there were some legit reasons for that, but as noted some of the anonymous quotes from NLF sources stated this slide also had something to do with his coming out. http://thebiglead.com/2014/02/10/michael-sam-fell-70-spots-on-cbs-draft-board-overnight/ for an overview, see also: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/michael-sam-gay-nfl-draft/
 
I said much the same as you that I basically trust Fisher and don't doubt that no team is actively self-sabotaging. That'd be idiotic. That said, it is a curious case. I totally cop that my own biases bias me in favor of making the case for Sam. You're saying the opposite isn't what happens, as well? That's just contrary to basic social science. It's perfectly possible to hold a nuanced view and recognize that there's no reason to assume that Sam is a slam dunk NFLer, nor any reason to assume that just because he's currently not a squad that he's unqualified. It'd be too harsh to assume you're lying about Sam's pre-coming out draft rep, to the contrary I assume you just forgot and, to the point, misremembered because that suited your pre-existing biases (against Sam as a football player, not as a gay man). I think that's a fair assumption to make.
If you go through the fvethirtyeight piece, you see that even picks projected as 4th rounders have a 21% chance of not being drafted. If you average Sam's pre and post-combine ratings in that range, there is still nothing to suggest he didn't get a fair shake.

That is the big thing that I mentioned before. With guys of his caliber, this shit does happen all the time. So we're not going to know if it was really fair or not. I openly acknowledge that it might not be. But there is nowhere near enough evidence to make that case, and as a result, I stick with what the data suggests, which is that the NFL chews up and spits out players of his caliber quite often.

To clarify what I meant by "highly-rated", I think you need a legitimate first round pick to come out to be able to see what people really think. As we've seen from even our second and third round picks, sometimes they wash out really fucking fast. And sometimes they suck. You really need a top-end talent to see how people really react.
 

dcmissle

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Tony C said:
Are you implying that non-football reasons could have some impact on Sam's football future?
 
:)
 
(p.s.: I agree with your point)
Everyone agrees Sam right now has plenty of limitations. Best case, he is practice squad material in all likelihood.

People are human. If somebody, for example, publishes an attack on Fisher, the reaction around the League will be, "WTF do I need this for?" No good deed goes unpunished, can't win for losing, and so forth.

It won't be worth it. We're not talking about Bruce Smith here.
 

soxfan121

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Tony C said:
Well, this is simply false. At the time Sam came out he was rated a 3rd rounder by whatever that central scouting bureau is. He then dropped, and I don't doubt that there were some legit reasons for that, 
 
Two things:
1. The centralized scouting bureau is where Mel Kiper gets his information. So you've just endorsed Mel Kiper, Draft Expert. Go think about what you've done. 
2. He dropped - and I feel personally stupid for arguing against this at the time - because he was AWFUL at the Combine. I tend to distrust the Combine but sometimes the numbers don't lie. His measurables, compared to his peers, showed a guy who lacked athleticism, burst and size/strength. 
 

Tony C

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In short, dc, you're saying: non-football issues matter.
 
Chuck Z said:
If you go through the fvethirtyeight piece, you see that even picks projected as 4th rounders have a 21% chance of not being drafted. If you average Sam's pre and post-combine ratings in that range, there is still nothing to suggest he didn't get a fair shake.

That is the big thing that I mentioned before. With guys of his caliber, this shit does happen all the time. So we're not going to know if it was really fair or not. I openly acknowledge that it might not be. But there is nowhere near enough evidence to make that case, and as a result, I stick with what the data suggests, which is that the NFL chews up and spits out players of his caliber quite often.

To clarify what I meant by "highly-rated", I think you need a legitimate first round pick to come out to be able to see what people really think. As we've seen from even our second and third round picks, sometimes they wash out really fucking fast. And sometimes they suck. You really need a top-end talent to see how people really react.
 
Ok, whatever. Fair enough on not ever knowing if it's fair or not. We can agree to agree (stop the internet!)  But I really do think we should also be able to agree that when a guy drops 70 slots on a draft ranking overnight after coming out, there's something else going on. As one of those articles said, it's "naive" to think otherwise. Non-football issues matter. Doesn't make Sam a pro bowler waiting to happen, but it does make his not catching on over a nothing like Bequette (and I assume most teams have a Bequette) curious.
 
*note to Soxfan:  1) I'm not arguing for or against a draft ranking, just against the statement that he was, quote, "never" highly ranked by anyone. 2) see note above about his draft ranking falling drastically and immediately, well before the combine (note as well anonymous quote from NFL execs linking that to his coming out). I've seen as much of Sam as Willie McGinest and probably as much of Bequette as McGinest, too. I know a 1000th of what McGinest knows -- but, sue me, the idea that Sam doesn't have Bequette's burst or ability is questionable.
 
in any case, I've stated my arguments probably a bit repetitively. Basta from here.
 

dcmissle

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Tony C said:
In short, dc, you're saying: non-football issues matter.
 
 
Sure. If I am calling the shots for another team and on the fence about Sam and I then see the Rams unfairly savaged, maybe I think twice. Not because I am homophobic or a coward, but because I am ambivalent to begin with and don't need the BS.

That's not dishonorable. It's human.
 

soxfan121

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dcmissle said:
Sure. If I am calling the shots for another team and on the fence about Sam and I then see the Rams unfairly savaged, maybe I think twice. Not because I am homophobic or a coward, but because I am ambivalent to begin with and don't need the BS.

That's not dishonorable. It's human.
 
Has anyone gone after the Rams in this way? (anyone reputable, I mean)
 
I've seen nothing but praise for Fisher and the Rams from the mainstream outlets, with the notable exception of the four-letter's shower escapades and non-apology. 
 

dcmissle

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Has anyone gone after the Rams in this way? (anyone reputable, I mean)
 
I've seen nothing but praise for Fisher and the Rams from the mainstream outlets, with the notable exception of the four-letter's shower escapades and non-apology. 
Not to my knowledge. That is what I hope does not happen, particularly in the days immediately following the rosters and practice squads being finalized. But it maybe fruit hanging too low for purveyors of snark and outrageous opinion.

I think there is a decent chance Sam catches on with someone in the near future. Maybe the 49ers, maybe the Rams, maybe someone else.
 

Sportsbstn

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At this point, its probably a lot better for Michael Sam to go play in the CFL.  The route to the NFL if you star in the CFL is pretty strong.  Dominate north of the border and he will have a list of teams wanting him.   Cant dominated there, dont belong in the NFL.
 

Fred not Lynn

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Sportsbstn said:
At this point, its probably a lot better for Michael Sam to go play in the CFL.  The route to the NFL if you star in the CFL is pretty strong.  Dominate north of the border and he will have a list of teams wanting him.   Cant dominated there, dont belong in the NFL.
Or just land at that level and have a respectable career playing professional football...
 

Toe Nash

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I don't put very much weight in the "distraction" idea as having much impact at all on the decision. If teams are susceptible to distractions, they are going to find something to be distracted about as it's not really possible to get through a whole season without one. Maybe a good example is Tebow -- he played for the Jets, was a bit of a distraction, but I don't think he ruined their season or anything as they have plenty of other things to get distracted about. Then he went to the Pats and it was barely an issue at all. Or Aaron Hernandez -- They cut him, BB addressed it, and that was that.
 
For that reason I see no reason to doubt Fisher judged him on football reasons. If he was really a bigot, would he have drafted him in the first place? And once he made it to final cuts, wouldn't they gain just as much positive press if he had made it as if he hadn't? And once again, if they are a well-coached team, it shouldn't affect the players either way.
 
I don't think the NFL is beyond homophobia in any way and it's not impossible that it impacted the decision, but I don't follow the logic when the team drafted him.
 

Devizier

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I live in St Louis, so I've seen all his pre-season games and he's been a topic on local radio/TV. Everyone was excited about him, but Ethan Westbrooks was just better, he had similar production, better athleticism and more flexibility since he could move inside.
 
Sam is a tough pickup for another team from a pure football perspective. He can only play 4-3 DE, that's it, can't move inside, can't stand up, can't really play in a 3-4. He also can't play special teams. Now that's fine if he was an absolute stud pass rusher with explosive speed who you would expect to beat first string LT (say like a young robert mathis). He isn't, putting up good performances in pre-season against 3rd stringers while surrounded by a ton of talent on his D-Line isn't enough to offset his weaknesses for most teams. You're burning a roster spot on a guy who probably doesn't play a down all year unless you have tons of injuries.
 
Sounds kind of like Mark Anderson.
 

Super Nomario

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Tony C said:
Well, this is simply false. At the time Sam came out he was rated a 3rd rounder by whatever that central scouting bureau is. He then dropped, and I don't doubt that there were some legit reasons for that, but as noted some of the anonymous quotes from NLF sources stated this slide also had something to do with his coming out. http://thebiglead.com/2014/02/10/michael-sam-fell-70-spots-on-cbs-draft-board-overnight/ for an overview, see also: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/michael-sam-gay-nfl-draft/
It wasn't overnight; it was a long slide over kind of a disastrous spring, starting with a lousy performance in Senior Bowl practices and culminating with the Combine, where he probably showed the least athleticism of any edge rusher there. Shayne Skov is an example of a guy projected as a 3rd/4th rounder who ended up undrafted because his measurables were so poor (he ran a 5.09 40 at his Pro Day). So it's not like Sam is the only player this happened to. Of course, we can't rule out that his coming out hurt his draft stock, but I find the explanation that he fell solely for ordinary reasons convincing.
 
Tony C said:
I'll just add that everyone jumps on the Bequette comparisons as if they somehow show Bequette is superior because...what, 2 or 3 inches taller?  Football is about production: Forget the NFL history of players who were SEC DPYs, Sam did way more in 4 preseason games than Bequette has done in 3 years of preseason games (virtually always against scrubs) and 8 regular season games. During those regular season games I'll add up the total of every positive stat Bequette compiled: 0+0+0+...
Bequette was just as productive in college - he didn't win the SEC DPOY because he missed three games his senior year, but he probably had the best year among SEC edge rushers, and his overall numbers line up with Sam's pretty closely. Bequette was also kind of a Combine freak; his 40 was just OK but he dominated the agility drills. And he's got prototypical DE size at 6'5" 274. Obviously it hasn't translated; he's been a waste of a pick. But there was a lot of reason to think his upside was higher coming out of Arkansas than Sam's coming out of Missouri.
 
Chuck Z said:
That is the big thing that I mentioned before. With guys of his caliber, this shit does happen all the time. So we're not going to know if it was really fair or not. I openly acknowledge that it might not be. But there is nowhere near enough evidence to make that case, and as a result, I stick with what the data suggests, which is that the NFL chews up and spits out players of his caliber quite often.
I think this is right. We can say Sam got kind of a raw deal after the college career and preseason he had, but the reality is that lots of guys get kind of raw deals, and we can't necessarily assume it was because Sam is gay. There aren't enough slots in the NFL for everyone to get a fair shot, unfortunately.
 

Chemistry Schmemistry

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Which is worse: prejudice, or the prejudiced assumption of prejudice at every turn? Hopefully, the answer is that they both stink.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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We see all the time that the NFL is a hyper-competitive league and that you have to REALLY do some shit for talent to not win out. Kill someone in the crosswalk? Throw your girlfriend down the stairs? Kill someone in a DUI accident? Knock your wife out in an elevator? 
 
Eh. If you can maybe give the team an edge to win, you'll find yourself on a team. 
 
If Sam could play, he'd be playing. If he's not, it's because he's thought to be just not as good as someone else. Why would being gay be more of a black mark than actually killing someone? Don't you have to be remarkably cynical about the NFL to think that way?
 

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Well, Vince has invited him to Monday Night Raw with an open mic, so there's that.