NFL MVP

WayBackVazquez

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Missing something very obvious about Cam Newton's stats, aren't we?


It's not called the Most Valuable Passer award.
OK, wow. I like the Football Outsiders stats as much as anyone, but if you're going to make a statement like that, you'll need a whole lot more than that to back it up.
I'm not sure what you need. You said Brady's poor second half knocks him out, and Wilson's poor first half knocks him out. Besides teh Brady numbers above, and the DVOA and DYAR stats cited, Wilson was a significantly better passer and runner in the first half than Newton was.

You should just say Newton should get it because his team won the most games, and it's a cool story. Or because he has calm eyes.
 

singaporesoxfan

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His rushing DVOA among QBs ranked 18th. When you add his rushing DYAR, it moves him to 10th overall from 11th.
Rushing DVOA is a weird stat to cite for a QB. The top 3 QBs by rushing DVOA in 2015 were Brandon Weeden, Jay Cutler, and Blaine Gabbert.

Yes, you can argue that overall Cam's rushing didn't add that much to his value, which is what the second half of your quote about DYAR suggests, but putting the two sentences together to imply he wasn't a good rusher is cherry-picking statistics.
 

singaporesoxfan

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His rushing DVOA among QBs ranked 18th. When you add his rushing DYAR, it moves him to 10th overall from 11th.
Also, honest question: has FO finally standardized the yards in DYAR the way wins in WAR are standardized in baseball? When DYAR was introduced Aaron Schatz said that you can't just add passing and rushing DYAR, or rushing and receiving DYAR, to arrive at "total value", but now FO writers liberally add up DYARs to make their point, and I can't figure out if they got more confident that the yards were equivalent.
 

WayBackVazquez

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Rushing DVOA is a weird stat to cite for a QB. The top 3 QBs by rushing DVOA in 2015 were Brandon Weeden, Jay Cutler, and Blaine Gabbert.

Yes, you can argue that overall Cam's rushing didn't add that much to his value, which is what the second half of your quote about DYAR suggests, but putting the two sentences together to imply he wasn't a good rusher is cherry-picking statistics.
Hmm. Doesn't feel like cherry-picking to me. I think they work together to support exactly that - that his rushing value is overstated.

Look, he's going to win the award, but I just don't think he deserves it. More than 30% of his games were below average to bad. And yet his team still won all but one. When a QB's worst five games add up to a sub-70 passer rating, more turnovers than touchdowns, and I believe under 4 yards per rush, I don't see how in today's league, he's the MVP. Take a look at Carson Palmer's worst five games. Does consistency mean anything?

He played very well at the end of the season. But his first half was substantively the same as what he's done before, which was not very good. But his team went 8-0, and he's the shiny new thing.
 

singaporesoxfan

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For rushing QBs I think a rate stat DVOA isn't a good indicator of the value that they add while DYAR probably is. A look at the top 4 QBs in terms of rushing DYAR passes the smell test a lot better - Cam, Tyrod Taylor, Wilson, Rodgers. Using the fact that he's 18th in QB rushing DVOA doesn't really even illustrate that he was an inefficient rusher - yards per rush does that better.

In terms of overall DYAR, it's a good stat for teams but for QBs it's nowhere as good as WAR is for measuring player value in baseball, because the fact that DYAR and DVOA aren't adjusted for quality of receivers (or for weather/stadium effects) really means you have to supplement the stats argument with a qualitative one. I buy the "Cam had 5 really bad games but got lucky in those while Palmer was very consistent" argument a lot more than just looking at the raw DYAR and DVOA numbers, but even so there's still a comeback along the lines of "yeah, but the receiving corps for the Panthers is so much worse than the Cardinals one".
 

coremiller

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You can't use rushing DVOA for QBs because a) for the ones who don't run much, the sample size is extremely small, and b) Volume matters a lot for value. Brandon Weeden is first in rushing DVOA, but he had only 9 attempts for 55 yards. That's both a) not a large enough sample for his DVOA to be a meaningful estimate of his actual ability, and b) doesn't make him anywhere near as valuable as a runner like Newton with a lower DVOA in many more attempts.
 

AB in DC

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Not only that, but the DYAR formula has always given much heavier weight to passing stats than to rushing state. That's why I never add both passing and rushing stats into a "Total DYAR". Otherwise, then you're saying that Danny Woodhead was the #1 RB in all of football this year and Theo Riddick was in the top five.

It's even worse for QBs, since the "average" QB run is usually a mix of QB sneaks (which have a high first down conversation rate) and a lot of 10-ish yard scrambles, while Cam is used much, much differently as a rusher.

So rushing DYAR is really a lousy measure for Cam Newton's value running the ball.
 

j44thor

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Newton was tied for 2nd in the NFL in rushing TD's with 10 one behind the leader.
He also out rushed Charcandrick West, David Johnson, Amer Abudullah, Leveon Bell.

He was essentially a top 10 QB and a top 25 RB this year on a 15-1 team. If that doesn't deserve MVP I don't know what does.
 

coremiller

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Re the 5 bad games argument -- is there any evidence that lower variance is per se more valuable? So that if two QBs have the same overall season performance, but QB A has 16 ok games, and QB B has 8 great games and 8 bad games, then QB A is more valuable? It seems plausible to me that QB A's team would tend to win more, but I could see a case the other way as well. Does anyone know if this has been studied?

DYAR gives more weight to passing because passing tends to be more efficient than running. The RB rankings get screwed up as a result because they become mostly a function of usage patterns. But the general point DVOA/DYAR makes that top RBs are less important than CW/fantasy suggests has analytical merit.
 

pappymojo

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Newton was tied for 2nd in the NFL in rushing TD's with 10 one behind the leader.
He also out rushed Charcandrick West, David Johnson, Amer Abudullah, Leveon Bell.

He was essentially a top 10 QB and a top 25 RB this year on a 15-1 team. If that doesn't deserve MVP I don't know what does.
This is where I am at. Ranked by total touchdowns...

Cam Newton 45 touchdowns, 10 int, 5 fumbles
Tom Brady 39 touchdowns, 7 int, 6 fumbles
Blake Bortles 37 touchdowns, 18 int, 14 fumbles
Carson Palmer 36 touchdowns, 11 int, 6 fumbles
Eli Manning 35 touchdowns, 14 int, 11 fumbles
Russell Wilson 35 touchdowns, 8 int, 7 fumbles
Kirk Cousins 34 touchdowns, 11 int, 9 fumbles
 

WayBackVazquez

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Wow, touchdowns. Really? You guys are probably big fans of pitcher wins and RBI, too. Except RBI doesn't allow the batter to continually call his own number with a runner on third and less than two out.
 

coremiller

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Those of you using this "total TDs" argument: can you please explain WHY TDs are the only, or most important, criterion? QBs do lots of other valuable things that TDs, or TD/INT ratio, does not capture.

I'm continually amazed at how often smart, analytically aware football people, both here and in the larger media, fall back on a version of QBWINZ! Obviously our current QB stats are somewhat rudimentary and don't properly capture value or separate out coaching/teammate influence. But the fallback argument that, "Our stats can't measure everything, so the QB with decent stats on the team with the most wins = MVP" seems incredibly superficial to me.

To be fair, not everyone arguing the Newton case is saying that. But a lot of people are.
 

Super Nomario

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Re the 5 bad games argument -- is there any evidence that lower variance is per se more valuable? So that if two QBs have the same overall season performance, but QB A has 16 ok games, and QB B has 8 great games and 8 bad games, then QB A is more valuable? It seems plausible to me that QB A's team would tend to win more, but I could see a case the other way as well. Does anyone know if this has been studied?

DYAR gives more weight to passing because passing tends to be more efficient than running. The RB rankings get screwed up as a result because they become mostly a function of usage patterns. But the general point DVOA/DYAR makes that top RBs are less important than CW/fantasy suggests has analytical merit.
This seems like it would depend. Like, if you had a crappy team you'd probably want more variance, but on a good team you'd want less.

And there's some philosophical element to this with respect to Cam. He had three five TD games, and two of those were the two games where his defense allowed 35+ points and they needed every one of those TDs. He had weak games statistically against Jacksonville and Philadelphia, games the Panthers won fairly comfortably anyway. Should he be credited because his particular pattern of variance helped the Panthers maximize wins (he generally put up numbers when they needed him to and didn't when they didn't)? Obviously there's little or no predictive value to this pattern, but arguably it should factor into who WAS the most valuable.

Wow, touchdowns. Really? You guys are probably big fans of pitcher wins and RBI, too. Except RBI doesn't allow the batter to continually call his own number with a runner on third and less than two out.
The "call his own number" criticism is unfair. Cam carried eight times within the two and scored seven touchdowns. That's incredibly efficient (league average is a touch under 50%). Carolina finished with the second-best red zone efficiency in the NFL, which is a big reason they led the league in scoring. Cam was a huge part of that.
 

WayBackVazquez

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Yeah, he had eight touchdowns from inside the three on first or second down. How valuable is that relatively? Even just considering league average on all downs, and not considering running behind one of the best run OL in the league, with three RB averaging over 4 ypc ready to do the same thing?

When you do something well that your team doesn't need you do, it's not "most valuable," it's gratuitous.
 
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I think that because personnel interplay and interdependencies are more tightly coupled in football than in baseball, it's fair to weight team success more heavily in deciding which player was the most valuable. We can separate out the individual achievements more readily in baseball and have been able to move past the argument of "sure Trout had the best year, but the Angels finished 3rd, how valuable could he have possibly been?", as if players can (or ought to) do everything for the team.

But in football, we're still sort of in the statistical stone age in evaluating how players add value on every play, in both rate and counting stats. If we grant that we don't need deep stats to know that QBs are almost always going to be the most valuable players by far (at least in today's game), then the MVP question becomes much simpler: what QB added the most value relative to expectations? To me, that's a counting stat, and "Expected yards" and/or DYAR are about the single best numbers we can attach, but we also need to account for scheme, health, clutch performance (e.g. 4QC / GWD), etc. One stat I wish we had is the fraction of a team's total WPA added by the defense, offense, and special teams respectively. That might mirror the DVOA stats closely, but unlike DVOA, it would account for the clock and game situation more heavily.

As a start in that direction, Ben Morris's articles on Gunslinger of the Week have shown us that sometimes taking unreasonable risks (= higher INT%) to go for a higher chance of winning the game (and correspondingly higher chance of losing spectacularly, as opposed to closely) can be justified. So, I don't think INT% alone - and the resultant outsize influence on Passer Rating - tells the most important part of the story. There's a narrative element to QB decisions at crunch time, making snap decisions (ha!) that dramatically shift win probability and manage the clock and team focus/morale at the most important times. You can easily get into "calm eyes" territory there, but I think it's fair to look at all the close games that Newton played this year and the way he led decisive drives (@SEA, @NO, @NYG), or salted away the win to prevent a comeback (HOU, @JAX), and conclude that he stood out above Palmer or Wilson. I would disagree with that conclusion, but the point is, it's not like rate stats tell the whole story.

On the third hand, if we focus on crunch-time analysis, Carolina's defense plainly and obviously won the games vs NO, @TB, IND (sudden-death INT!), GB, and arguably the PHI and WAS games too. And some games were curb-stompings from the get-go, of course. But barring a solo defensive standout like JJ Watt or Lawrence Taylor '86, you can't really argue that Newton wasn't his team's most valuable player, even if he wasn't the best player relative to his position's average on his roster (I'd still vote Kuechly).
 

pappymojo

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Personally, I just don't think that the MVP award for the NFL is that important. The NFL is the only sport of the big four to truly separate the defensive positions from the offensive positions, and it is very hard to quantify the value of a center versus a safety versus a kicker versus a linebacker. I have no say in who wins and I don't really care who wins. I don't feel the need to apply advanced stats to this discussion. In a league whose popularity is at least partially driven by both fantasy football and highlight plays, Cam Newton scored the most touchdowns in the league by a wide margin, and his team won 15 games. That's good enough for me.
 

AB in DC

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Yeah, he had eight touchdowns from inside the three on first or second down. How valuable is that relatively? Even just considering league average on all downs, and not considering running behind one of the best run OL in the league, with three RB averaging over 4 ypc ready to do the same thing?

When you do something well that your team doesn't need you do, it's not "most valuable," it's gratuitous.
And when you cherry-pick statistics to make your point, it's not analysis, it's trolling.

You like FO's statistics? By their measure, Carolina's OL was 12th in run-blocking (adjusted line yards) and 21st in pass blocking (adjusted sack rate). Jonathan Stewart was 33d in rushing out of the 44 RBs with the most carries. Tolbert had slightly better numbers but only 62 carries. And you call this "one of the best OL in the league" and call Newton's performance something that any of their RBs can do just as well? Absolute nonsense.
 

pappymojo

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The comparison of touchdowns in football to wins in baseball as valuation metics seems strange, primarily as one of the criticisms of using wins to determine a pitchers value is that a baseball team can not win a game without scoring at least one run while runs are something that a pitcher does not contribute to (when pitching). Runs are a product of a baseball team's offense, just as touchdowns area product of a football team's offense.

Removing touchdowns from the discussion of the NFL MVP would be like removing runs from the discussion of the MLB MVP, points scored from the discussion of the NBA MVP or goals scored from the discussion of the NHL MVP.
 

WayBackVazquez

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Calm down, Mrs. Newton. I said "run blocking."

The Panthers have maybe the best center in football, and another all pro at left guard. FO has them 2nd in power run blocking, top ten in two of the other run metrics, and were higher in each just a few weeks ago, as was Stewart (was in the top 10 at Thanksgiving) . PFF has had the OL as a top-5 unit each time they've posted their rankings this year.

But please do tell me what you think the leaguewide expected value on Cam's 5 1st or 2nd and 2 or less TDs was.
 
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WayBackVazquez

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Removing touchdowns from the discussion of the NFL MVP would be like removing runs from the discussion of the MLB MVP, points scored from the discussion of the NBA MVP or goals scored from the discussion of the NHL MVP.
Removing touchdowns from the discussion would be curious, but less so than using total TDs (passing and rushing) as the be all and end all as at least one poster has explicitly done.

Some TDs are more difficult--and represent greater value for the player who scores them--than others. If Newton had 10 TDs on 3rd or 4th and more than five or some such thing, it would be extremely persuasive. But banging in a bunch of TDs on first and goal from the 1 is not impressive to me.
 

DJnVa

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Eight of his rushing TDs were with less than 3 yards needed for the score, 7 were 1 or 2 yards. Eight were also on 1st or 2nd down. Seven were scored while the game was within 1 score either way.
 

Super Nomario

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Removing touchdowns from the discussion would be curious, but less so than using total TDs (passing and rushing) as the be all and end all as at least one poster has explicitly done.

Some TDs are more difficult--and represent greater value for the player who scores them--than others. If Newton had 10 TDs on 3rd or 4th and more than five or some such thing, it would be extremely persuasive. But banging in a bunch of TDs on first and goal from the 1 is not impressive to me.
FWIW, as far as I can tell Cam did lead the NFL with 15 touchdowns (13 passing + 2 rushing) on 3rd or 4th down. (Among the other MVP candidates named, Palmer had 14 passing TDs + 0 rushing, Wilson 11 passing + 1 rushing, Brady 10 passing + 1 rushing)
 

WayBackVazquez

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FWIW, as far as I can tell Cam did lead the NFL with 15 touchdowns (13 passing + 2 rushing) on 3rd or 4th down. (Among the other MVP candidates named, Palmer had 14 passing TDs + 0 rushing, Wilson 11 passing + 1 rushing, Brady 10 passing + 1 rushing)
Are you fucking with me right now? Did I suggest TDs are the dispositive metric? Or that 3rd down TDs are? Because I thought I said it's pretty stupid to judge things solely by TDs. And I thought I said one shouldn't be too impressed by Cam's 10 rushing TDs when most of them were gong to be scored one way or another (as evidenced by the fact that they were scored on early downs from near the goal line). Third down touchdowns are one stick in a bundle of statistics, the great majority of which Cam Newton is missing as compared to the other elite QBs in the league.