Offseason rumors

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CR67dream

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Imanaga by himself doesn’t move it for me either. No one move does. But collectively? Another story. Tough to not detect a pattern.
Oh, I agree, but the pattern I'm seeing is that they're passing on players that are for the most part fungible, and not one of which I'm pissed the Sox didn't sign. I wish they could have been more appealing to Yamamota, but I think blaming the Sox for that is pretty absurd.

It's a new front office, any meaningful patterns have yet to be revealed. If nothing changes, the pattern you're seeing, which seems ownership driven (and I see why you see it), could certainly prove out. And as I said, if it does, give me a pichfork. And a torch, too. :)
 

OCD SS

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This is not just for ITP, but why with this particular announcement? I was not sold on Imanaga at all from the get go and I haven't even seen the terms yet. How an unproven commodity choosing to sign elsewhere causes this kind of uproar is beyond me. It's January 9.

As I see it nothing they've passed on is anything too special. People just seem to want to see a big splash as a show of faith. It's January 9.

They're not going to work on our timetable. We don't know their real targets or if those targets are even on SoSH's radar.

We don't know nothing.

It's January 9.
If replacing Sale with Giolitto is a push, the options to improve the pitching staff for just $ is down to Boras clients Snell & Montgomery. So which do you prefer to improve the staff?

Otherwise we’re
Relying on Breslow to be wizard, and actually pull a rabbit out of hia
This is all true. I continue to say that we need to wait to see final painting. It’s undeniable though, that the color palette is a lot more limited than it was 6 weeks ago, and there’s a lot of empty spots on the canvas.
As an artist, I’m going to just put it out there that this isn’t really how paintings happen/ work.
 

chawson

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Whoever we sign would have to be that much better than our fifth starter.

Replacing Sale, who came with availability questions, with Giolito, clears that up somewhat. (When we had Sale, we needed six starters.)

So, who would we bump? Houck? Crawford? Pivetta? How much better is the new guy over the 2.0-2.5 win (depending on projection) wins you get from that guy? And how much is that worth?

I've been pretty consistent in saying that it'd be a shame to bump more than one of Crawford, Houck and Whitlock to the bullpen full-time. Crawford is really underrated. Whitlock is training differently, with an eye to keep him healthy. A solid shortstop helps Houck immensely. And there will be more moves. I'm not completely sold that all three of those guys stick, of course. But there's a measure of bad luck, bad defense, injury problems, and fan frustration that is partly informing everyone's opinion that they're not starters, and it would be helpful to separate those factors from their true measure.

That said, we should sign Yariel Rodriguez, trade a C prospect for Tyler Anderson, and give Brandon Woodruff 3/$50 or something equivalent in the next week.
 

CR67dream

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6+ years: Yeah, that's a long time
5 years: I think I might have done this
4 years/fewer: Really? That's it and they didn't match?
Unless they just weren't too high on their projections for him and hung around in case they could get a steal. As I said, it's a new front office, and I'd rather be patient and see if they're allowed to develop a personality over the coming weeks than assume the worst. I will have plenty of time to express anger and disappointment if the final product looks like shit. Everyone's different, but I'd rather not be miserable before I have to.
 

moondog80

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For what it's worth, MLB -- which has imposed sanctions on many players for DV -- conducted an investigation on Clevinger and imposed no discipline.
 

chawson

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Also, what strong second half? Clevinger had a 4.73 ERA and 4.76 xFIP from August 22 on, with a well below league average strikeout rate.

I really believe the team will look interesting in April, but I'd be officially pissed if we signed Clevinger or Julio Urias.
 

ehaz

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While the all-shithead rotation of Bauer, Urias, Clevinger, and German is more talented than the current Red Sox staff I really hope that none are part of the plan.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Eh, no one seemed to have a problem with Derek Lowe. Clevinger is 33, seems likely to take the kind of deal the Sox have been offering. Trade for Cease and we’ll be 60% of the way towards recreating the ChiSox rotation.
 

greek_gawd_of_walks

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I was freaked for a minute and thought the Sox were interested in him. If they go there, which I don't think they will, it won't take 6 weeks for me to get pissed.
I also seem to remember him having trouble following the rules during the pandemic days. Not that that's anything compared to domestic violence (which happened to involve his 10 months old daughter and the baby's mother), but Clevinger definitely strikes me as a guy who you don't want around, especially in a clubhouse that's trending younger.
 

CR67dream

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What would be a dismal offseason?
Bringing in a guy with a domestic violence issue, even after not being disciplned by MLB, would be a disaster in Boston right now. For good reason.

And less importantly, can you imagine the noise and the spin? I really don't want to hear an unending chorus of "they're so toxic they can only get the dregs to come here" on top of all the other noise.
 

OCD SS

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With the Dodgers signing all the reds to 12 year deals, Breslow entered his blue period.
Blue tends to be expensive. I’m pretty sure FSG has mandated that Breslow study up on the French Academy and get used to working with umber.

If things go really well and we’re in contention then maybe they’ll spring for some Naples yellow at the deadline.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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That’s disappointing. Looks like we will end up trading one of the young studs for a good starter.
Have seen this sentiment a few times recently but I’m not sure it really fits how they are valuing assets at the moment.

Presumably big money at long-term for uncertain assets (older pitchers) is a total non-starter right now because it’s a bad value proposition, so I’m not really sure how trading one or more of the up-the-middle studs as part of a huge package for a pitcher who will still need to be signed soon (like Cease) would be seen by this FO as a better or smarter value.

Trading all that value for two years of control suggests they would be trying to contend in that time, which, if that’s the case, might as well spend some money without giving up any prospects. It’s also a ton of pressure to resign such a player no matter how he performs here. If you can get a guy with more like 4 years of control it’s a different conversation maybe but I don’t expect many such guys to be available who would significantly improve the team’s situation.
 

CR67dream

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Interesting there hasn’t been a lot of Stroman chatter considering his connection to Breslow.

We’re definitely headed to his tier.
Don't we need someone in that tier regardless of other moves?

What you say could make a lot of sense, though, since all the things that have actually happened so far have happened with no chatter surrounding them at all to speak of.
 

bosockboy

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Don't we need someone in that tier regardless of other moves?

What you say could make a lot of sense, though, since all the things that have actually happened so far have happened with no chatter surrounding them at all to speak of.
I’d be happy with Stroman and a Luzardo-esque trade. Guessing Stroman goes for like 3/48 at this point.
 

jon abbey

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MFY's don't want him they said.
What actually happened was Bob Nightengale (who is always wrong) said they weren’t interested and then the next day said there was mutual interest. No one else has reported anything either way here.
 

Rovin Romine

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Don't we need someone in that tier regardless of other moves?

What you say could make a lot of sense, though, since all the things that have actually happened so far have happened with no chatter surrounding them at all to speak of.
They could theoretically stand pat.

Or they could stand pat re: the FA market and trade some of their pitching depth and/or prospects to acquire a plus starter. But that's really more about the fact that they have a lot of pitching depth at the moment, but few plus starters.

It's sort of like their OF situation in a way. They could go as is, but to upgrade they'd have to move some players.

It seems like they're going to be very picky here on out with whom they add and on what terms.
 

ehaz

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Marcus Stroman declined his 1/$21M player option and will be entering his age 33 season. So I'm guessing he's expecting something like $18M - $22M AAV over a two or three year contract. Based on how this offseason has played out that seems too rich for Boston.

If Breslow can't pull a trade out of his hat, I'm guessing we're in for more of a depth tier guy like Hyun-Jin Ryu with one or both of Houck / Whitlock stretched out to back them up.
 

beautokyo

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What actually happened was Bob Nightengale (who is always wrong) said they weren’t interested and then the next day said there was mutual interest. No one else has reported anything either way here.
So just click bait back and forth. Seems like more things happen when no one says anything.
 

6-5 Sadler

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Interesting there hasn’t been a lot of Stroman chatter considering his connection to Breslow.

We’re definitely headed to his tier.
Sadly, given the Clevinger report, I think they’ve already moved past that tier and are onto the DV tier.
 

ehaz

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They could theoretically stand pat.

Or they could stand pat re: the FA market and trade some of their pitching depth and/or prospects to acquire a plus starter. But that's really more about the fact that they have a lot of pitching depth at the moment, but few plus starters.

It's sort of like their OF situation in a way. They could go as is, but to upgrade they'd have to move some players.

It seems like they're going to be very picky here on out with whom they add and on what terms.
I think it's quite different from the OF situation. It's not just plus starters they are missing. You're probably relatively confident that Giolito, Bello, and Pivetta can take the ball every 5th day since they've all done it before. But Crawford, Houck, Whitlock, Winckowksi, and Fitts---you don't know if they're bulk relievers or starters. You may feel better about some (I like Crawford) but we really don't know. This is practically the same situation they found themselves in entering last season and what led to the likes of Bernardino, Schreiber, Ort, Jacques, Robertson, Dermody, and Scott combining to start 16 games. Lots of volatility.

Even if they don't like the available top of the rotation options this offseason, I think they still need to add one more guy even if it's just a #4/5 pitcher on another 1-year deal. I don't think that's going to impact your ability to properly evaluate guys like Houck and Whitlock in the rotation if they are really intent on trying them out there again. If anything it just helps ensure your bullpen isn't running on fumes by July.
 

CR67dream

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I think it's quite different from the OF situation. It's not just plus starters they are missing. You're probably relatively confident that Giolito, Bello, and Pivetta can take the ball every 5th day since they've all done it before. But Crawford, Houck, Whitlock, Winckowksi, and Fitts---you don't know if they're bulk relievers or starters. You may feel better about some (I like Crawford) but we really don't know. This is practically the same situation they found themselves in entering last season and what led to the likes of Bernardino, Schreiber, Ort, Jacques, Robertson, Dermody, and Scott combining to start 16 games. Lots of volatility.
That's pretty much where I was coming from in regards to needing to shore up the bottom end of the rotation. I'd really love not to hear the words "opener" or "bullpen game" in regards to the Sox ever, ever again. :) I'd probably be more disappointed if they fail to do that than if they don't sign one of the Boras guys.
 

Cellar-Door

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So all they've done with the rotation so far for 2024 is replace a combined ~190 innings of 4.00 FIP ball from Chris Sale and James Paxton with Lucas Giolito, who, if he rebounds and doesn't miss a single start, should improve on that slightly.

1. Giolito*
2. Bello
3. Pivetta*
4. Crawford
5. Houck or Whitlock

If that looks volatile to you, just wait till you see what's under team control in 2025:

1. Bello
2. Crawford
3. Houck
4. Whitlock
5. Dick Fitts? Josh Winckowski?

*pending free agent.

Sure, they have $140M to spend in 2025 until the first threshold (lol). But what are they going to do? Sign the entire free agent class? Kidnap Jerry Dipoto until he agrees to finally listen to offers on Logan Gilbert or George Kirby?
He has a career 4.44 FIP and was below 4 in only 3 of his 8 seasons, so not sure even a rebound makes it "should" as much as "might"
 

Rovin Romine

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I think it's quite different from the OF situation. It's not just plus starters they are missing. You're probably relatively confident that Giolito, Bello, and Pivetta can take the ball every 5th day since they've all done it before. But Crawford, Houck, Whitlock, Winckowksi, and Fitts---you don't know if they're bulk relievers or starters. You may feel better about some (I like Crawford) but we really don't know. This is practically the same situation they found themselves in entering last season and what led to the likes of Bernardino, Schreiber, Ort, Jacques, Robertson, Dermody, and Scott combining to start 16 games. Lots of volatility.

Even if they don't like the available top of the rotation options this offseason, I think they still need to add one more guy even if it's just a #4/5 pitcher on another 1-year deal. I don't think that's going to impact your ability to properly evaluate guys like Houck and Whitlock in the rotation if they are really intent on trying them out there again. If anything it just helps ensure your bullpen isn't running on fumes by July.
Ah, but I do know if they're starters, because they've all started. (Moreover there was some reporting that the Sox intended to stretch out several of their younger pitchers for redundancy.) Right now they've got 7 plausible arms for 5 spots.

Depth is:
1 Lucas Giolito (lock)​
2 Bello (lock)​
3 Pivetta (lock)​
4 one of Houck, Crawford, Whitlock or Winckowski.​
5 same​
6 same​
7 same​
Now, lest someone have a conniption, let me point out that I don't think that's a sterling or competitive rotation unless Breslow and Bailey know something we don't. But if their internal projections align with most of us here, picking up another starter seems like a good idea. And so it probably seems to the Sox since they're often reported as being in on various pitchers.

I think it's rather simple - they'll add player X at Y rate. . .and if someone bids up, they'll move on to their next most desirable target. Eventually, someone will fall to them at the right talent/year/price combo and they'll sign them like they did Giolito. But I think they have number of FAs they can crunch through until they get to the point where they're merely replicating the quality they already have.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Don't we need someone in that tier regardless of other moves?

What you say could make a lot of sense, though, since all the things that have actually happened so far have happened with no chatter surrounding them at all to speak of.
I’d absolutely adore getting Stroman as part of this rotation. Personally I have him a bit above Imanaga (not below).

The issue is if not Stroman, there is nothing else on the FA market that makes the Red Sox better in 2024-2026 because at this point everything else via free agency is one year dreck that puts leaves the team staunchly in the 2022, 2023 rotation bridge to nothing realm (I think there is a less than .01% chance of them signing Montgomery or Snell).

Truth be told, I actually prefer the trade (and extension) route for starting pitching. It’s what has certainly worked the best for the club in the past (Schilling, Beckett, Sale) whereas the most “successful“ FA signings have been Lackey and Price.

The issue there is, of course, there is no “Schilling“ out there right now (Houston isn’t trading Verlander), and the Red Sox don’t have the pitching prospects necessary to land a Beckett type (keep in mind there Boston needed to deal Hanley, take on Lowell AND include a top 40ish SP prospect) let alone Sale (where Moncada was a top 5 prospect and they needed to include Kopech, who was around top 70, and there is nobody like Moncada, and certainly nobody like Kopech in the system).

I’ve been saying for a long time, but Breslow is in a really tough spot. He either needs to overpay to get someone to choose Boston right now in FA dollars, he needs to trade Mayer plus a lot, or he’s going to have a terrible rotation. I think the biggest issue the team is facing is that he WANTS to trade prospects or OFs for cost controlled pitching - in many ways he’s said as much, and other teams just aren‘t interested in anything the Sox have to sell that isn’t Bello, Casas, Grissom, Anthony, Teel or Mayer for SPs of any consequence.

Maybe Breslow can get a Chase Silseth or Ken Waldichuk type we can hope on, but unless one of Anthony, Teel or Mayer is moved, that’s probably about it.

The somewhat good news is that it’s a seller’s market - and unlike his predecessor, Breslow has shown an aptitude to make bold sells, and has (at least in my opinion) done extremely well with them. Hopefully he doesn‘t “stop” at moving Verdugo and Sale. He sold off two guys with one year of control (with the option, I really don’t get why Atlanta extended Sale, but whatever) and got back (my opinion) the Red Sox best pitching prospect (3rd on Sox Prospects) and (again, my opinion) 3rd best positional prospect (ineligible to be ranked) that I’ll call the 2b of the future.

If he acts decisively enough, and quickly enough, I think he can get something pretty good for Jansen, Martin, Pivetta (and I’d actually like giving Pivetta a “Lugo” extension of he’d take it, but on just a one year deal, I’d try to cash him in for a decent prospect in a seller’s market) and possibly Yoshida setting the team up really well for 2026 and beyond - and who knows - maybe even hits on enough guys to be decent in 2025.


*I like Yoshida, I’m not saying “he stinks, trade him”, I’m saying that based on where the team is now and what remains out there for middle class SP, there is a pretty high likelihood the 2024 and 2025 Red Sox are going to stink, so trade him because in 2026 he’s going to be 32, not 27.
 
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thepriceisright

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Ah, but I do know if they're starters, because they've all started. (Moreover there was some reporting that the Sox intended to stretch out several of their younger pitchers for redundancy.) Right now they've got 7 plausible arms for 5 spots.

Depth is:
1 Lucas Giolito (lock)​
2 Bello (lock)​
3 Pivetta (lock)
4 one of Houck, Crawford, Whitlock or Winckowski.​
5 same​
6 same​
7 same​
Now, lest someone have a conniption, let me point out that I don't think that's a sterling or competitive rotation unless Breslow and Bailey know something we don't. But if their internal projections align with most of us here, picking up another starter seems like a good idea. And so it probably seems to the Sox since they're often reported as being in on various pitchers.

I think it's rather simple - they'll add player X at Y rate. . .and if someone bids up, they'll move on to their next most desirable target. Eventually, someone will fall to them at the right talent/year/price combo and they'll sign them like they did Giolito. But I think they have number of FAs they can crunch through until they get to the point where they're merely replicating the quality they already have.
They need to add somebody, and I'm generally understanding of the angst around the seemingly uncompetitive nature of their free agency activity on a lot of these guys. But, I do think Pivetta presents an interesting profile because he was so good--elite even? after adding a sweeper. Since the addition, 3.27 FIP and 12.5 K/9 in ~100 innings. The guy's been an enigma his whole career but I do think the sweeper gives him a fundamentally different arsenal with which to work going into this season. Interested to see how he does in a contract year.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Right now, they’ve lost 48 starts between Sale, Paxton, and Kluber. Let’s say we’d prefer to not do the opener thing at all, so that’s 16 more starts. So you are looking to replace 64 starts. You’d like to hope Giolito can take 28 of them.

So down to 36. Would be great to add another legit SP…but theoretically, could you get that many more from a combination of Pivetta (16 starts last year), Houck (21), Whitlock (10), and Crawford (23)?

Probably, but less than ideal, obviously.
 

thepriceisright

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The Andrew Friedman quote from a while back where he basically said "if you're rational about every free agent you will finish third on all of them" keeps coming to mind for me. I get that a good front office hunts value but if you need something, don't you have to be willing to pay the market rate at some point? Especially when you're as far below the tax threshold as they are?
 

Rovin Romine

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They need to add somebody, and I'm generally understanding of the angst around the seemingly uncompetitive nature of their free agency activity on a lot of these guys.
I know you're not adopting that statement, but when I read it, I think "like who?" Exactly how many pitchers would have come here to play on non-crippling contracts (if they would have come here to play at all)?

(IMO, much of the angst has been driven by off-season wishcasting starting with Ohtani and Soto. And then YY deked the entire east coast.)
 

Seels

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guys Imanaga is going to give up 40 homers. I question the front office probably more than anyone but he definitely wasn't the signing.
 

thepriceisright

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I know you're not adopting that statement, but when I read it, I think "like who?" Exactly how many pitchers would have come here to play on non-crippling contracts (if they would have come here to play at all)?

(IMO, much of the angst has been driven by off-season wishcasting starting with Ohtani and Soto. And then YY deked the entire east coast.)
Yeah, I tend to agree with your statement. I was more so phrasing it that way because that's just the word that I keep seeing thrown around, less so my actual feeling on it.
 

Max Power

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In the very beginning of the offseason, Breslow said he was looking to add two pitchers, one via free agency and one via trade. Giolito is the FA. If he's keeping his to his plan, the second will be a trade. But that might have to wait for Montgomery and Snell to sign so rosters are settled.
 
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