Parcells: A Football Life (excerpt about Belichick leaving NYJ)

Yaz4Ever

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BigSoxFan said:
Pretty amazing that the Pats have had 3 coaches over the past 21 years:

Bill Belichick
Pete Carroll
Bill Parcells
I only hated (still hate) one of them, even though Parcells has always been a dick.  
 

Greg29fan

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Bill Parcells made the playoffs with Quincy Carter - QUINCY CARTER - as his starting QB.  Overrated?  Come on.
 

Ed Hillel

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Stitch01 said:
The Parcells era drafts were very good on the whole.
 
1993-Bledsoe (probably an average number 1 overall pick, but a good player for a long time), Slade was good, Rucci and Brisby were OK, Troy Brown in the 8th round, Corwin Brown had an NFL career. 
1994-only pretty bad draft, but McGinest was a good pick and Lane and Marty Moore were decent late round hits.  Brutal 2nd and 3rd round here though, Kevin Lee was a whiff and Collier and Burch got cut in camp as third round picks.
1995-HOF RB in the third round, Hall of very good Ty Law in the 1st round, Ted Johnson in the 2nd round, Wohlabaugh and Hitchcock in the 5th and 4th rounds.  About as good as it gets.
1996-Glenn/Milloy/Bruschi 1-2-3 was excellent and Irwin and Sullivan both had real NFL careers in the 4th round.  Some production out of Grier and Purnell late.
 
Pretty good overall IMO
 
Do we know how many of these players he picked? I know Glenn was a Kraft pick, and that's part of the reason that Parcells wanted out, but do we know how much beyond the Glenn pick it went?
 
Doesn't he get points for recruiting / enticing Belichick to go with him instead of Johnson, in that case? It seems weird that you'd only give him credit for hiring Belichick if no one else wanted BB.
 
He got guaranteed the coaching job with the Jets. Can we surmise he was told by Parcells he would groom him to be his replacement at that time as well?
 

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Super Nomario said:
Doesn't he get points for recruiting / enticing Belichick to go with him instead of Johnson, in that case? It seems weird that you'd only give him credit for hiring Belichick if no one else wanted BB.
 
Yeah, it is definitely possible that Parcells deserves all of the credit here. Just throwing it out there that it is also possible that BB deserves most of the credit. Hard to really know.
 

lexrageorge

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soxfan121 said:
 
This isn't strictly true - many of the big names were Parcells guys and a few more were Parcells Jets guys...but there were lots of guys who weren't. 
Looking at the roster that season:
 
Parcells guys (10): Bledsoe,  Troy Brown, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Vinatieri, Tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Willie McGinest, Terry Glen, Marty Moore
 
Pete Carroll/Bobby Grier era (5): Tebucky Jones, Brandon Mitchell, Damien Woody, Kevin Faulk, Rod Rutledge
 
Belichick draftees and acquisitions (36):  Brady, Andruzzi, Je'Rod Cherry, Mike Compton, Marc Edwards, Larry Izzo, Patrick Pass, David Patten, Lonie Paxton's snow angels, Greg Randall, Antowain Smith, Mike Vrabel, Jermaine Wiggins, Terrell Buckley, Matt Stevens, Charles Johnson, Matt Light, Grey Ruegamer, Grant Williams, Riddick Parker, Richard Seymour, Terrance Shaw, JR Redmond, Matt Chatham, Antwan Harris, Ken Walter, David Nugent, Fred Coleman, Leonard Myers, Hakim Akbar, Torrance Small, Bert Emanuel, Curtis Jackson, Ben Kelly, Jace Sayler, TJ Turner
 
Jets castoffs signed by Belichick (6):  Bobby Hamilton, Roman Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, Otis Smith, Bryan Cox, Rob Holmberg
 
Naturally, a lot of the Belichick acquisitions included special teamers and other roster fodder.  
 

Stitch01

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Ed Hillel said:
 
Do we know how many of these players he picked? I know Glenn was a Kraft pick, and that's part of the reason that Parcells wanted out, but do we know how much beyond the Glenn pick it went?
 
 
He got guaranteed the coaching job with the Jets. Can we surmise he was told by Parcells he would groom him to be his replacement at that time as well?
No, we don't.  However the Pats did drafting during that era ended up working out.
 

tims4wins

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Holy shit I forgot just how bad the first Grier/Carroll draft was
 
Chris Canty
Brandon Mitchell
Sedrick Shaw
Chris Carter
Damon Denson
Ed Ellis
Vernon Crawford
Tony Gaiter
Scott Rehberg
 
Just an abortion
 

dcmissle

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tims4wins said:
Holy shit I forgot just how bad the first Grier/Carroll draft was
 
Chris Canty
Brandon Mitchell
Sedrick Shaw
Chris Carter
Damon Denson
Ed Ellis
Vernon Crawford
Tony Gaiter
Scott Rehberg
 
Just an abortion
A principal reason for BB landing here and the success since 2000.

The drafting was horrendous. Not just ordinary bad drafting, but multiple high rounders that they got for Parcells himself and Curtis Martin, pissed away. In fact, it was so bad that Parcells did not mind the Jets parting with them because he knew they would be pissed away.

I think Parcells is somewhat overrated, and he is undoubtedly a self promoter and always has been.

But make no mistake -- he was an integral part of saving pro football in NE. The wet-behind-his-ears Bob Kraft of the mid 90s was not up to that task alone.
 

dcmissle

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In fact, if this space existed in the late 90s, it should have been titled "BBLR."

Blinded by Leonta Rheams.
 

snowmanny

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Parcells says of Belichick (with whom he later rekindled his relationship, after six years of silence), “At the end of the day, he didn’t want to be the Jets’ head coach. Then he expected me as the general manager to just say, ‘OK, I’ll get somebody else.’ Well, eventually I did that. But I got compensation.”
Let's not underestimate the degree to which that compensation shifted the power balance in the AFC East.
 

Super Nomario

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Ed Hillel said:
He got guaranteed the coaching job with the Jets. Can we surmise he was told by Parcells he would groom him to be his replacement at that time as well?
It wasn't really Parcells' call, was it? The Jets were willing to let Parcells be GM-only and hand-pick his coach, but there's no guarantee Kraft would have done the same.
 
tims4wins said:
Yeah, it is definitely possible that Parcells deserves all of the credit here. Just throwing it out there that it is also possible that BB deserves most of the credit. Hard to really know.
It's a two-way street. Parcells made the offer, Belichick took it. Obviously it was a really good hire by Parcells. I don't see any particular reason to think Tuna deserves any more or less credit for it than any other coaching hire. Maybe a head coach who grooms a coordinator from within deserves more credit.
 
lexrageorge said:
Parcells guys (10): Bledsoe,  Troy Brown, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Vinatieri, Tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Willie McGinest, Terry Glen, Marty Moore
That's not that many guys, but a lot of the star talent, especially on D. Then again, if you look at the players in any place who've been there for five or six years, they're going to be disproportionately really good players. Shitty players don't tend to stick around very long. Parcells certainly deserves some credit for these guys, but I wouldn't go overboard. This is more talent than most coaches inherit from their predecessors, but I'm not sure it's much more talent.
 

Van Everyman

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In other news, the article itself makes an excellent case that the only person in this story shittier than Bill Parcells himself is Charlie Weis, who after being turned down for the HC of the NYJ after BB resigned rats out Parcells at BB's grievance hearing and says Parcells never had any intention of ceding control to BB ... and THEN had the balls to show up at work the next day:

The grievance hearing ended after seven hours, and a ruling was expected within a week. Weis returned to his office the next day; incensed, Parcells immediately banned his offensive coordinator from the premises: “Charlie, you need to get your s--- and leave the building.” Watched closely by Jets employees, Weis took a few minutes to gather some items before scuttling out of the building. Moments after he exited, the team packed up the rest of his belongings and shipped them to his home.

Parcells says, “I’ve told many coaches that friendship and loyalty is going to be more important than ambition. Some guys don’t realize that until after they’re done. I don’t bear any animosity toward Charlie. I can say that with a straight face because I know what he is. When somebody shows me what he is, I usually believe it. His actions back then don’t bother me anymore.”
This story is awesome.
 

8slim

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It's totally disingenuous to not admit that Parcells turned around a franchise that had largely been a joke for it's prior 30+ years of existence.

It's also fair to hate the fat bastard for torpedoing a Super Bowl because he was incessantly chatting on the phone with the Jets like a 13 year old girl.

So thanks Bill, and fuck you.
 

NortheasternPJ

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This story is awesome.
 
It also shows what a Titanic the Jets organization was with Parcells at the end. Two of his most loyal coaches were burned at the stake/forced their way out rather than be associated at all with Parcells and the Jets. You can call it "hurt feelings" etc. but Parcells lost control of that ship on the way down. 
 

dcmissle

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Van Everyman said:
In other news, the article itself makes an excellent case that the only person in this story shittier than Bill Parcells himself is Charlie Weis, who after being turned down for the HC of the NYJ after BB resigned rats out Parcells at BB's grievance hearing and says Parcells never had any intention of ceding control to BB ... and THEN had the balls to show up at work the next day:



This story is awesome.
Lmao at Weis.

Parcells was great at attracting huge coaching talent. And all of these guys, Parcells included, were head cases in their own ways.
 

snowmanny

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So really BB was head coach of the Jets twice, with a combined record of 0-0.  There have been 17 other NJY HCs, and three of them have winning records:
Parcells (29-19), Groh (9-7) and Ryan (42-38).  But Ewbank won a Super Bowl so I really can't rank Belichick any higher than fifth best Head Coach in Jets history.
 

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8slim said:
It's totally disingenuous to not admit that Parcells turned around a franchise that had largely been a joke for it's prior 30+ years of existence.

It's also fair to hate the fat bastard for torpedoing a Super Bowl because he was incessantly chatting on the phone with the Jets like a 13 year old girl.

So thanks Bill, and fuck you.
 
This is where I'm at. Great coach. Turned around the franchise. Super asshole. His actions during the SB week were unforgivable, so fuck him. But still, his contributions to what was the biggest joke of a franchise in professional sports were the stuff of legend.
 

soxfan121

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This is where I'm at. Great coach. Turned around the franchise. Super asshole. His actions during the SB week were unforgivable, so fuck him. But still, his contributions to what was the biggest joke of a franchise in professional sports were the stuff of legend.
 
It was the best of times, it was the the worst of times...
 

jodyreeddudley78

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Parcels deserves almost all of the credit for turning the Patriots franchise around. I really believe that any other story is revisionist, at best.

That being said, his Super Bowl victories were with (arguably) the best coaching staff in modern history. He deserves credit for having them on his staff, but they get marginalized when the media extols his virtues. Well, the staff and some LB that might be the best defensive player of the last 30 yrs.

Am I the only one that sees Parcells after the Pats as the NFL version of Pitino/Calipari? Yeah, he was going to turn your franchise around, but it's about him (and his hair dye), and he will be gone as soon as something better comes around.
 

lexrageorge

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jodyreeddudley78 said:
Parcels deserves almost all of the credit for turning the Patriots franchise around. I really believe that any other story is revisionist, at best.

That being said, his Super Bowl victories were with (arguably) the best coaching staff in modern history. He deserves credit for having them on his staff, but they get marginalized when the media extols his virtues. Well, the staff and some LB that might be the best defensive player of the last 30 yrs.

Am I the only one that sees Parcells after the Pats as the NFL version of Pitino/Calipari? Yeah, he was going to turn your franchise around, but it's about him (and his hair dye), and he will be gone as soon as something better comes around.
Parcells took over the Giants in 1983 and was with them for 7 years.  The Giants were not that much better off than the Patriots in some respects; they had 1 playoff appearance in the previous 19 seasons.  By the time Parcells retired from the Giants, he had had at least one cardiac-related health scare.  Also, the Giants almost replaced him after his first, disastrous 3-12-1 season.  And Parcells was not allowed to interview for the Atlanta coaching job, which came with GM duties, following the first Super Bowl win.  So, with the Giants at least, I'm not sure I can group him in with the Pitino's and Calipari's.  
 
However, his short-term, me-first, "I coach year to year" approach wasn't going to work for Kraft, who had just paid a small fortune for the team.  It probably wasn't going to work for Woody Johnson either, and neither Dallas nor Miami were destined to be long-term stops either.  
 
I don't believe it's inconsistent to say he helped turn the Pats around, and to be upset over his actions during the Pats Super Bowl appearance.  I have to believe had he told the Jets "Let me focus on the Super Bowl this week; these guys have worked really hard for it all season, and these opportunities don't come around all that often.  We'll have coffee on Bourbon Street the morning after.", they would have waited for him.  
 

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That's the funny part of this whole thing.  I'm sure when Parcells says what he said in that article about Belichick he means it in a way that is critical of BB.  But I'm sure Belichick gives zero fucks about it, and all it accomplishes is dragging Jets fans through the "what could have been" discussion for the umpteenth time.
 
Belichick also knows, as does everyone who follows football, that he has proven himself to be a better coach than Parcells ever was.  And that means more to BB, and hurts Parcells more, than anything else I am very sure.
 

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8slim said:
It's totally disingenuous to not admit that Parcells turned around a franchise that had largely been a joke for it's prior 30+ years of existence.

It's also fair to hate the fat bastard for torpedoing a Super Bowl because he was incessantly chatting on the phone with the Jets like a 13 year old girl.

So thanks Bill, and fuck you.
 
This is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. I have no idea why this nonsense keeps getting repeated, but it's simply not true.
 
What is undoubtedly true is that the 4 years prior to Parcells' arrival were absolutely terrible, the real nadir of the team. But working backwards from that:
 
- From 1982-1988 the team was above .500 every year but one and 8-8 in that one year; they had a pretty good run in the Berry years.
- a bad 2-14 year in 1981
- from 1976-1980 they were one of the better teams in football. 11-3, 9-5, 11-5, 9-7, 10-6. Ben Drieth probably fucked out out of a SB appearance.
- a bad team from 1965-1975
 
For a 12 year stretch from 1976 through 1988 they had 10 winning seasons plus another .500 season with only one real stinker in the bunch, 1981. Does that make them the Niners? Of course not. And there's no doubt that the organization certainly had a tendency to make clowns of themselves: the Sullivan-Fairbanks fiasco, the coke abuse in the wake of the SB in '86, the embarassing Victor Kiam years and the horrid Zeke Mowatt incident. Note that most of those problems were due to bad ownership, a problem that incidentally got solved when Kraft bought the team.
 
The idea that Parcells came in here and achieved the first real success the franchise had ever had is total unadulterated bullshit. Dan Shaughnessy would be proud of this theory. Parcells rebuilt the team in 1993 onwards and provided an air of respectability that had been missing in the 4 years prior to that. That's it. He didn't save the team, he didn't do anything a multitude of other coaches haven't done. Of course getting Kiam's incompetent ass out of town helped with that as well.
 
 

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I agree with you on many of the points you are making about Parcells, but it isn't a big deal to give him some of the credit for restoring credibility to what was then a dead franchise.
 
Sure they had had some moderate pockets of success before then, but growing up around here I had as many friends who were Dolphin and Cowboys fans as Patriot fans.  They were a joke of a franchise playing in the worst stadium in professional sports.  The fact that a guy with Parcells' resume would even dream of thinking about coaching in New England was huge.
 
I hate him for the Super Bowl stuff and, as I mentioned above, it should tarnish his overall resume not just his time in New England, but giving him a share of the credit for making football in New England popular again is OK.
 

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SJH is right about the history.  The Pats had during the 1970s one of the strongest front offices in football, and some of their drafts were jaw dropping.  Just could not get over the hump.
 
But Parcells did make them relevant again.  And were it not for Kraft, they would probably be in St. Louis today.
 

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Ralphwiggum said:
I agree with you on many of the points you are making about Parcells, but it isn't a big deal to give him some of the credit for restoring credibility to what was then a dead franchise.
 
Sure they had had some moderate pockets of success before then, but growing up around here I had as many friends who were Dolphin and Cowboys fans as Patriot fans.  They were a joke of a franchise playing in the worst stadium in professional sports.  The fact that a guy with Parcells' resume would even dream of thinking about coaching in New England was huge.
 
I hate him for the Super Bowl stuff and, as I mentioned above, it should tarnish his overall resume not just his time in New England, but giving him a share of the credit for making football in New England popular again is OK.
 
My point is that the franchise had only been "dead" for 4 years before he got here. Not 30. Four. Prior to those very, very bad four years, they had a damn good stretch which included a bunch of winning seasons, playoff appearances, and a Super Bowl run. That didn't make them the Niners or the Cowboys, but that also didn't make them a laughingstock either. Anyone who thinks the franchise was a total joke for their entire history before Parcells got here was likely born in 1992.
 
And the vast majority of the franchise's problems were endemic to ownership. Bad stadium? Ownership. Horrid mismanagement and buffoonish behavior? Ownership. Cash-strapped? Ownership. Lack of stability? Ownership. Parcells didn't solve any of those problems. If Kraft didn't buy the team, they were moving to St Louis. With Parcells as coach and Bledsoe as the QB. Period.
 
Parcells didn't do anything that Ron Meyer hadn't already done beginning in 1982, taking a 2-14 team and turning it around to go over .500 in each of the next three years. I don't hear anyone blowing Meyer for what he did. Parcells of course has more charisma, which likely accounts for the higher praise, but bullshit is still bullshit.
 
Parcells gets way, way too much credit for a guy who was here only 4 years and had only 2 winning seasons in the process. And who then fucked the team over on the cusp of the Super Bowl. Fuck him. I never wanna hear about how great he was again. His legacy here is mixed at best. He helped turn around the on-field product only to try to blow the whole thing up on his way out the door. The only thing Parcells ever cared about was himself.
 

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And I apologize for my overuse of breathless hyperbole. It's likely distracting from the points I'm trying to make. This type of stuff just drives me insane though. I really think a thorough history of the team would be helpful in putting some of this stuff into a better perspective.
 

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dcmissle said:
SJH is right about the history.  The Pats had during the 1970s one of the strongest front offices in football, and some of their drafts were jaw dropping.  Just could not get over the hump.
 
But Parcells did make them relevant again.  And were it not for Kraft, they would probably be in St. Louis today.
 
Ya, but by now the Boston Texans...er, Boston New Englanders would be celebrating their 12th anniversary!
 

dcmissle

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True enough, but who knows whether Kraft owns them, and Kraft was the bridge to BB.
 
The clown school aura surrounding this team stemmed from the owners.  Sullivan deserves credit for hiring people like Steinberg, Kilroy and Fairbanks, who had great eyes for talent, but  helped sabotage those 70s teams by refusing to pay players who deserved to be paid, just as the RS did in the 70s (Al Davis:  "Thank you, Patriots,  for a Hall-of-Fame cornerback.").  Then Kiam and Orthwein.  Nuff said.
 
Edit.
 
This is why when "cheap" is attached to Bob Kraft, it's worse than stupid, it's shameful.
 
Felger and Mazz pin that label on the Pats every chance they get, while the team they relentlessly ballwashed is 1 and 6 while $20 million under the cap.
 
With the current ownerships, sports fans in New England never had it so good.
 

Stitch01

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A good rule of thumb is that anytime someone on Boston TV or Radio starts discussing anything salary cap related you should turn the channel to avoid getting dumb and incorrect information.  Despite cap basics being pretty easy to learn (nuances are hard and plentiful of course, but just fucking read Miguel's page or overthecap) and a critical part of being good at their jobs, none of these guys have either the aptitude or desire to learn about it.
 

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It's worse than that.  These two have peddled the biggest falsehood about the NFL in this century -- that the salary cap is a fig leaf and does not matter.
 
Managing that cap wisely is a principal reason why the Pats have 11 consecutive double-digit win seasons.  The runner up is San Francisco with 3.
 

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OK, for perspective's sake, let's take an objective look at the Patriots pre-Parcells vs. some of the non-Dolphin (aka elite) teams that were in our division during that time period:
 
1967-1992 (26 seasons):
 
Patriots record (regular season):  167-221-1, 5 playoff appearances, 1 Super Bowl appearance, 0 championships
 
NY Jets record (regular season):  173-201-3, 7 playoff appearances, 1 Super Bowl appearance, 1 championship
 
Buffalo Bills record (regular season):  166-217-3, 8 playoff appearances, 3 Super Bowl appearances, 0 championships
 
While the Patriots had sporadic periods of relative success, I'd say that we were among the dregs of the league for over a quarter-century.  Even in the years where the Pats were successful, they were an also-ran, winning the AFC East only two times in 26 seasons (1978 and 1986).
 

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Mooch said:
While the Patriots had sporadic periods of relative success, I'd say that we were among the dregs of the league for over a quarter-century.  Even in the years where the Pats were successful, they were an also-ran, winning the AFC East only two times in 26 seasons (1978 and 1986).
 
No. "Dregs of the league" is completely inaccurate.
 
The vast majority of the Pats' overall record came from a very bad 11 year stretch from 1965-1975....10 losing seasons out of 11. It was bad, but it was also very far removed from the present day.
 
They then had a very good stretch of 12 seasons of football, with only 1 bad year mixed in (1981). 10 seasons of plus .500 plus one more 8-8 season. 4 playoff appearances and 1 SB appearance. No one's going to the Hall of Fame with that run, but that's about as far from the "dregs of the league" as anyone can imagine.
 
Then they had a poor 4 year run just before Parcells was hired.
 
To paint the entirely of the Pats' existence prior to 1993 as some monolithic run of failure is wrong, it's totally inaccurate, and it's completely unfair to the players and coaches who put up fine seasons here. Chuck Fairbacks and Ray Berry were terrific coaches and had great teams at points. Steve Grogan had a hell of a career. Just because Parcells is good a personal PR doesn't mean we have to buy into the bullshit he's selling.
 
M

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Going back to the original topic of this thread, Bill Barnwell over at Grantland has an excellent analysis of the history and consequences of the Belichick-to-NE trade.  He claims it may have been the most lopsided trade in NFL history.
 
Not having been much of a football fan in those days, I was entirely unaware of the back-room machinations, lawsuits and power struggles that led to BB getting the F out of there.  Amazing to think that, but for Woody Johnson buying the team, he may never have been allowed to come.
 

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MentalDisabldLst said:
Going back to the original topic of this thread, Bill Barnwell over at Grantland has an excellent analysis of the history and consequences of the Belichick-to-NE trade.  He claims it may have been the most lopsided trade in NFL history.
 
Not having been much of a football fan in those days, I was entirely unaware of the back-room machinations, lawsuits and power struggles that led to BB getting the F out of there.  Amazing to think that, but for Woody Johnson buying the team, he may never have been allowed to come.
 
Thank you for that link. Check this out from that piece:
 
 
Belichick agreed to join the staff of Patriots head coach Bill Parcells.2 It was a natural fit. Belichick had enjoyed ample success working underneath Parcells with the Giants, where he had won two Super Bowls in six seasons as the team’s defensive coordinator. The Patriots, who had gone 21-27 in Parcells’s first three seasons as head coach, were coming off a 6-10 campaign in which they finished 25th in scoring defense. They needed help.
 
Sooooo....the Parcells "legacy" was helped in large part by his last season here....a season when BB was here. Hmmm.
 

JimD

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
My point is that the franchise had only been "dead" for 4 years before he got here. Not 30. Four. Prior to those very, very bad four years, they had a damn good stretch which included a bunch of winning seasons, playoff appearances, and a Super Bowl run. That didn't make them the Niners or the Cowboys, but that also didn't make them a laughingstock either. Anyone who thinks the franchise was a total joke for their entire history before Parcells got here was likely born in 1992.
 
And the vast majority of the franchise's problems were endemic to ownership. Bad stadium? Ownership. Horrid mismanagement and buffoonish behavior? Ownership. Cash-strapped? Ownership. Lack of stability? Ownership. Parcells didn't solve any of those problems. If Kraft didn't buy the team, they were moving to St Louis. With Parcells as coach and Bledsoe as the QB. Period.
 
Parcells didn't do anything that Ron Meyer hadn't already done beginning in 1982, taking a 2-14 team and turning it around to go over .500 in each of the next three years. I don't hear anyone blowing Meyer for what he did. Parcells of course has more charisma, which likely accounts for the higher praise, but bullshit is still bullshit.
 
Parcells gets way, way too much credit for a guy who was here only 4 years and had only 2 winning seasons in the process. And who then fucked the team over on the cusp of the Super Bowl. Fuck him. I never wanna hear about how great he was again. His legacy here is mixed at best. He helped turn around the on-field product only to try to blow the whole thing up on his way out the door. The only thing Parcells ever cared about was himself.
 
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
 
The Pats were a legit contender when I became a fan in the mid to late 1970's, and the Super Bowl run in '86 was awesome - the 'Squish the Fish' game was a long overdue win over Miami after years of frustration.  None of this is meant to excuse away the clown show that eminated far too often from the Sullivan ownership in Foxboro, but it's grossly misleading on the other hand to paint the experience of Patriots fans as one long dirge from the 1960's Fenway Park days until Parcell's arrival.
 

DJnVa

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
This is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. I have no idea why this nonsense keeps getting repeated, but it's simply not true.
 
What is undoubtedly true is that the 4 years prior to Parcells' arrival were absolutely terrible, the real nadir of the team. But working backwards from that:
 
- From 1982-1988 the team was above .500 every year but one and 8-8 in that one year; they had a pretty good run in the Berry years.
 

Another way to look at this--those 82-88 years for some reason get lumped into this "Pats were horrible forever" story that people like to talk about, yet their worst record in that time from is the same as the BEST record that Rex Ryan has done the last 4 seasons.
 

twibnotes

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soxfan121 said:
 
1. Shad Khan, the (fairly) new owner of Jacksonville is about 1,000,000,000 times more competent than Woody. Khan at least has experience running a successful business. Woody is an heiress who went to the University of Arizona. Not Arizona St., which as anyone can tell you, is a far better school.
Good point...of course, if you knew you would never need to earn a living, wouldn't univ of Arizona be near the top of the list? Bet it's a blast
 

quint

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a really good source
dcmissle said:
Parcells did not mind the Jets parting with them because he knew they would be pissed away.
This is complete horseshit. Parcells knew nothing of the sort, he's a coach for christsakes not a magic eightball. Parcells was willing to give up the picks because of his inflated sense of self worth.

He felt he was worth it. He probably felt like the Jets were getting a bargain.
 

quint

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soxfan121 said:
 
And Pete sucked when he was here. The revisionist history on that is almost as bad as it is with Tuna.
Carroll did not suck when he coached New England, stating such is revisionism at it's finest. He made the mistake of treating professional athletes like grown men and paid the price for it with key players undermining his authority with the front office and ownership at every turn.

Even his worst season, if you want to call it such was 8-8 but he did not "suck" as a coach.
 

wutang112878

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quint said:
Carroll did not suck when he coached New England, stating such is revisionism at it's finest. He made the mistake of treating professional athletes like grown men and paid the price for it with key players undermining his authority with the front office and ownership at every turn.

Even his worst season, if you want to call it such was 8-8 but he did not "suck" as a coach.
 
These statement seem to conflict.  Forget Xs and Os for a second, a coach's #1 job is to keep control over his team and it doesnt matter if you have that from respect or fear but you have to have it because you cant accomplish anything without it.  Carroll didnt have it, there is a reason and he is clearly getting something right in Seattle, but it didnt happen here.  You just cant let this happen and be a good coach, thats a huge demerit. 
 

8slim

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
This is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. I have no idea why this nonsense keeps getting repeated, but it's simply not true.
 
What is undoubtedly true is that the 4 years prior to Parcells' arrival were absolutely terrible, the real nadir of the team. But working backwards from that:
 
- From 1982-1988 the team was above .500 every year but one and 8-8 in that one year; they had a pretty good run in the Berry years.
- a bad 2-14 year in 1981
- from 1976-1980 they were one of the better teams in football. 11-3, 9-5, 11-5, 9-7, 10-6. Ben Drieth probably fucked out out of a SB appearance.
- a bad team from 1965-1975
 
For a 12 year stretch from 1976 through 1988 they had 10 winning seasons plus another .500 season with only one real stinker in the bunch, 1981. Does that make them the Niners? Of course not. And there's no doubt that the organization certainly had a tendency to make clowns of themselves: the Sullivan-Fairbanks fiasco, the coke abuse in the wake of the SB in '86, the embarassing Victor Kiam years and the horrid Zeke Mowatt incident. Note that most of those problems were due to bad ownership, a problem that incidentally got solved when Kraft bought the team.
 
The idea that Parcells came in here and achieved the first real success the franchise had ever had is total unadulterated bullshit. Dan Shaughnessy would be proud of this theory. Parcells rebuilt the team in 1993 onwards and provided an air of respectability that had been missing in the 4 years prior to that. That's it. He didn't save the team, he didn't do anything a multitude of other coaches haven't done. Of course getting Kiam's incompetent ass out of town helped with that as well.
 
 
 
Jesus, relax.
 
I grew up in Foxboro... spent the first 18 years of my life in a house 3 miles away from the stadium...... my father went to Pats games from season #1... I am completely and totally aware of the entire history of the Boston/New England Patriots, thank you very much.
 
It was a bit of hyperbole so I could tell Parcells to fuck off in print.
 
Thanks for saving the honor of the franchise.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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8slim said:
 
 
Jesus, relax.
 
I grew up in Foxboro... spent the first 18 years of my life in a house 3 miles away from the stadium...... my father went to Pats games from season #1... I am completely and totally aware of the entire history of the Boston/New England Patriots, thank you very much.
 
It was a bit of hyperbole so I could tell Parcells to fuck off in print.
 
Thanks for saving the honor of the franchise.
 
 
If so why on earth would you make such an incorrect statement? If you knew better, why say it? I truly don't get it, because saying the team sucked for the previous 30 years is so easily debunked that I can't fathom knowing better yet saying it anyway.
 
This shit gets me worked up because it's infuriating to see incorrect statements become part of conventional wisdom. Everyone "knows" that Parcells saved the franchise, everyone "knows" that the Pats had 30 years of suck before he came to town, just like everyone "knows" that the Pats pad their record on a weak division. None of those things is true, but they get parroted incessantly by those who can't be bothered to examine their veracity. And it drives me in. fucking. sane.
 

8slim

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
 
If so why on earth would you make such an incorrect statement? If you knew better, why say it? I truly don't get it, because saying the team sucked for the previous 30 years is so easily debunked that I can't fathom knowing better yet saying it anyway.
 
This shit gets me worked up because it's infuriating to see incorrect statements become part of conventional wisdom. Everyone "knows" that Parcells saved the franchise, everyone "knows" that the Pats had 30 years of suck before he came to town, just like everyone "knows" that the Pats pad their record on a weak division. None of those things is true, but they get parroted incessantly by those who can't be bothered to examine their veracity. And it drives me in. fucking. sane.
 
BECAUSE I WAS MOSTLY INTENT ON TELLING PARCELLS TO FUCK OFF FOR WHAT HE DID SUPER BOWL WEEK.
 
Sorry, next time I will link to an authoritative history of the franchise so everyone can read up before falling for the horrible misinformation in my throwaway posts.
 

DJnVa

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8slim said:
 
Sorry, next time I will link to an authoritative history of the franchise so everyone can read up before falling for the horrible misinformation in my throwaway posts.
 
As long as we're all on the same page.
 
 

johnmd20

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Old Fart Tree said:
 
Exactly.
 
Great coach, super huge asshole. Maybe the same is true of BB. Whatever. Don't care.
 
I always felt like Parcells was the super hugest asshole out of all the coaches. BB isn't an asshole, he just has no time for trifling. Parcells is a bully and a dick. I can't think of another coach who was as full of himself as Parcells is. He reminds me of Steinbrenner or Donald Trump. Just a blowhard.
 

soxfan121

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quint said:
Carroll did not suck when he coached New England, stating such is revisionism at it's finest. He made the mistake of treating professional athletes like grown men and paid the price for it with key players undermining his authority with the front office and ownership at every turn.

Even his worst season, if you want to call it such was 8-8 but he did not "suck" as a coach.
 
They went to the Super Bowl the year before his tenure and won it two years after, with a similar core. Perhaps "suck" is too strong but not one person thought Pete Carroll was a great coach until he bought Reggie Bush a house. 
 
He ain't in the conversation with Tuna and BB based on his NE results.
 

Tony C

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quint said:
Carroll did not suck when he coached New England, stating such is revisionism at it's finest. He made the mistake of treating professional athletes like grown men and paid the price for it with key players undermining his authority with the front office and ownership at every turn.

Even his worst season, if you want to call it such was 8-8 but he did not "suck" as a coach.
 
 
Well put, and I just want to add to the "he did not suck" argument (acknowledging that SF123 backed off on that, but just for the record type of thing). It's certainly true that he didn't deal well with the media politics of his job and that had a negative impact on the club. In particular, he was eviscerated and undermined by Borges and CHB et al (and this was the heydey of WEEI/The Big Show and all that represented). More importantly, he was dragged down by a truly awful GM in Grier. But that hardly means he sucked or was even bad. He was a good coach (and, obviously, had the makings of an excellent coach, as his next 2 jobs would show). I think it's ironic that on a board that does nothing but mock the Boston media's attempts to take down pretty much everyone, the worst of that media clique's spin on Carroll is taken as common wisdom. Pete Carroll didn't suck as a coach in NE and magically morph into an excellent coach at USC and Seattle. He had a style that clashed with the media culture in Boston, and the media made each and every week a referendum on Poodle Pete being too West Coast for tough Boston and its wise guy media that had found their stylistic hero in Bill Parcells. Combine that with awful personnel moves by the GM -- who didn't hesitate to leak to the press that the problem was Carroll didn't use those awful pick-ups wisely -- which meant things weren't going to go swimmingly no matter who was coaching, and Carroll became the fall guy.
 
It's amazing that Grier kept his job and Carroll lost his, but that says everything you need to know about the atmosphere around the team and in Boston more generally. 3 great things happened for the Pats to turn that around: hiring BB; BB having the authority to dump Grier; BB replacing the almighty Drew Bledsoe (who was some sort of sacred cow to the Boston media) with Brady.
 
And, most importantly, Kraft giving time to allow BB to make a success of that had the great side effect (beyond the rings) of discrediting a Boston media that thought BB would be their next scalp on the wall.
 
When you write this:
 
They went to the Super Bowl the year before his tenure and won it two years after, with a similar core.
 
 
You're sort of leaving out a key fact, aren't you? With that same core the year immediately after Carroll, perhaps the greatest coach in NFL history led the Pats to a 5-11 record, 3 games worse than their last season under Carroll. Carroll was not the issue.
 
edit: just to note that Grier wasn't technically GM -- director of player personnel or something, but same deal.
 

dcmissle

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Effectively, Grier lost his job too. BB was here 5 minutes before Grier was let go and joined Casserly in Houston.

Grier undermined Carroll no doubt. But Carroll also lost the team no doubt. And since you cannot replace dozens of players, the HC always goes in those circumstances.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Carroll was undermined by his own players; there was a constant stream of players heading into Grier's office to complain about Carroll. As noted before, he treated them like men and got burned for it. These players thought losing the SB made them better than they really were.

Carroll also had some bad luck, like having to start Zolak in a playoff game at Jax because Bledsoe's finger was all screwed up. That went about as poorly as could have been expected.
 

dcmissle

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Read the SI excerpt and found aspects that I had totally forgotten -- BB suing the League and Jets for antitrust violations, a suit he dropped when he did not get an injunction.

When he called Kraft to negotiate a trade for BB, Parcells said, "this is Darth Vader", and Kraft cracked up.

Found things I did not know -- Parcells suggesting to Kraft that BB be given only 48 hours to negotiate a contract with the Pats so he could not hold the teams up, a concept Kraft thought was great.

One thing is clear. At NY, BB was like a guy who is on the cusp of getting married, knows it is not right, and bolts from the church just before the ceremony. You look ridiculous at the time, but it's the right move. The description of BB being very nervous, distracted and agitated for the few hours he held the Jets HC job is VERY telling.