Patriots' Priorities for the 2023 Season

8slim

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Isn't that true of a basically anyone in his position? Pretty sure Harbaugh, Reid, Shanahan will do what they feel is best. And that's what you want from them.
Of course. And that's why there are no fan message boards for those teams. It's so weird we have one for the Pats when there's nothing to do but sit back and wait for Bill to do things his way.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Of course. And that's why there are no fan message boards for those teams. It's so weird we have one for the Pats when there's nothing to do but sit back and wait for Bill to do things his way.
Nobody is advocating this, I didn't respond to you and this sort of post isn't moving the topic along. Please use ignore.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The problem is that what he felt was best coming into the season was in fact the worst thing for the team. Everyone knew it except for him. That's startling.
And the Pats may still run it back with Judge and Patricia in the same roles.

The question is then, is there a possibility that it works if they upgrade their OL and some skill positions? I don't know but its not impossible to me. I can definitely see scenarios where they keep the coaching in tact while showing improvement.

I do wonder about Jones relationship with Patricia but if the gang stays together, I will assume they are ok with each other, even if Mac's histrionics suggest otherwise.
 

sezwho

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The problem is that what he felt was best coming into the season was in fact the worst thing for the team. Everyone knew it except for him. That's startling.
That’s a good word for it. I think for Bill the idea that a good coach just coaches is nearly an article of faith. Remember he felt comfortable recommending Joe Judge to run the Giants based solely on his performance as ST coach, and he adores the Mara family.

I would love to know when Bill figured out he was really in trouble with his decisions this season.
 

Justthetippett

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I will say I trust that Bill will undertake a thorough review from top to bottom in terms of the coaching staff and make some adjustments. From the outside, it seems pretty easy to see that Patricia and Judge continuing in their roles is madness/hubris/whatever (kind of like drafting the 3% kicker from Marshall), but who the hell actually knows what the day to day is inside the building or what thousands of hours of video review with expert eyes and game logs tells BB about what needs to be fixed. What I hope is that in these final years of his tenure, he’s able to: continue to be his own worst critic; admit mistakes; and learn and evolve. I also hope he pushes his chips to the middle of the table for another run or two. The whole thing is likely to fall apart for a few years when he leaves anyways. I want another couple meaningful playoff games with him at the helm, and I’ll trade those for a horrible season or two when he retires.
 

Deathofthebambino

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What I saw from the TV set were below average receivers and tight ends unable to get open, below average offensive linemen getting beat by their defensive counterparts, and a young QB struggling with consistency in multiple areas. Maybe it was coaching; maybe it was talent; probably was a little bit of both.
No issues with the playcalling?

I don't see how anyone could have watched this team and not seen coaching issues across the board. The penalties on the offensive line early in the season, the guys not knowing assignments, receivers running into each other, terrible route configurations and don't even get me started on special teams....All of that stuff is coaching. If other teams did that shit against the Pats over the last 20 years, this entire board would laugh and say "Thank God for Bill and his coaching staff..." Now when we do it, we're going to give Bill the benefit of the doubt, or even more strange, give the benefit of the doubt to guys like Patricia and Judge who are in positions that most of us knew would be a disaster the day they were announced? I don't get it.

And this idea that Bill had no other options in the off season is insane. There are dozens of coaches around the league and in college who would give their left nut to coach in the Patriots organization. It's Bill fucking Belichick. If you're a young computer programmer and Bill Gates gives you a ring and offers you a job/mentorship, are you hanging up on him?

Shane Steichen spent years with the Chargers, mostly as QB coach, and then he was OC on the Anthony Lynn helmed team and was let go. He was hired by Philly in 2021, and in 2022, Philly has the best offense in football.

In the offseason last year, Pederson hired Press Taylor, who was previously with Frank Reich in Indy as Asst. OC. Of course, Press Taylor and Pederson had history from their time in Philly together, so there was a fit there.

Bill probably could have figured out a way to keep Mick Lombardi from leaving to take the OC job under Josh in Las Vegas, maybe not.

Frank Smith was an assistant O Line coach with the Saints for 5 years, then was tight end coach with the Bears/Raiders for 6 years, did one year with the Chargers as OLine coach, and then McDaniel brought him to Miami this year as OC.

Mike Lafleur bounced around a few teams before Saleh hired him to be the OC last year when Saleh took the Jets job. His first OC job.

Tomlin went and found Matt Canada in the college ranks, hired him as QB coach in 2020, then gave him the reigns in 2021 as OC.

Dave Ragone was hired as OC for the Falcons, first OC job, in 2021, after spending 5 seasons on the offensive side of the ball in Chicago.

Luke Getsy spent 7 years on the offensive side of the ball in Green Bay, with a 1 year hiatus to Mississippi State, and then became a rookie OC this year for the Bears.

Ben Johnson spent 10 years in the NFL on offense with the Dolphins and Lions. When Bevell got fired and Campbell got hired, Campbell kept him on as TE coach, then made him OC this season.

Wes Phillips (Wade's son) has been in the NFL for over 14 years (plus 4 in college) all on the offensive side of the ball, never an OC. When O'Connor took the job in Minnesota, he brought Phillips with him and named him OC.

Mike Kafka spent 5 years with the Chiefs offensive coaching staff, never OC, and Daboll went and snagged him to be the OC this season for the Giants.

Shane Waldron who spent time with the Pats in 2008 and 2009, was never an OC, bounced from College back to the pros, was grabbed by Pete Carroll to be the OC in Seattle at the beginning of last year, after spending 4 seasons with McVay and the Rams on his staff.



Now, I'm not saying all of these guys are good hires, or even good coaches, I'm just pointing out that there is a TON of guys, and movement around the NFL for coordinators. The idea that BB only had a couple options to pick from and ended up with Patricia and Judge is just inane. This doesn't even get into the college ranks. He had options, he still has options, what he decides to do is anyone's guess, but he certainly has to own the decision either way. And I'm fully on record here and everywhere else that BB can coach the Pats for as long as he wants, with or without success, as far as I'm concerned.
 

Shelterdog

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That’s a good word for it. I think for Bill the idea that a good coach just coaches is nearly an article of faith. Remember he felt comfortable recommending Joe Judge to run the Giants based solely on his performance as ST coach, and he adores the Mara family.

I would love to know when Bill figured out he was really in trouble with his decisions this season.
Honestly, he knew it after watching Isiah Wynn's first game. We all knew the team was light at OT--the depth chart is like not a secret-- he couldn't get quality backups/draft picks everywhere (and TBF the draft does look pretty good so it's not like he clearly should have drafted an OT instead of Strange/Thornton/Jones/Jones)--and then Wynn was hurt or out of shape or something and singlehandedly screwed up the o-line for about eight weeks.

That the o-line was way better with McDermott than with Wynn just speaks volumes.
 

tims4wins

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Honestly, he knew it after watching Isiah Wynn's first game. We all knew the team was light at OT--the depth chart is like not a secret-- he couldn't get quality backups/draft picks everywhere (and TBF the draft does look pretty good so it's not like he clearly should have drafted an OT instead of Strange/Thornton/Jones/Jones)--and then Wynn was hurt or out of shape or something and singlehandedly screwed up the o-line for about eight weeks.

That the o-line was way better with McDermott than with Wynn just speaks volumes.
Speaks volumes about the coaching or Wynn? McDermott’s play was a positive for the coaching IMO. As much as I want to blame nearly everything on the coaching, I think I leah forward blaming Wynn for his performance.
 

Shelterdog

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Speaks volumes about the coaching or Wynn? McDermott’s play was a positive for the coaching IMO. As much as I want to blame nearly everything on the coaching, I think I leah forward blaming Wynn for his performance.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Speaks volumes about Wynn and about Bill the GM. Former first round pick being paid a lot, up for free agency, you're counting on him to start, your backup options of Herron/Cajuste/Cannon are clearly not good, so you totally depend on him and he plays like garbage physically and mentally? Maybe he's too banged up to function but one hundred percent this years Pats team desperately needed one more offensive tackle and BB's decision to hope to get buy with Wynn and Brown was, I think, his single biggest mistake.
 

BaseballJones

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So if the Pats simply had McDermott all year long at RT instead of Wynn, how many games do the Pats win? An extra game? Two? How many?

And let's remember that McDermott was a practice squad player for the New York Jets. And he was that much better than Wynn.
 

lexrageorge

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No issues with the playcalling?

I don't see how anyone could have watched this team and not seen coaching issues across the board. The penalties on the offensive line early in the season, the guys not knowing assignments, receivers running into each other, terrible route configurations and don't even get me started on special teams....All of that stuff is coaching. If other teams did that shit against the Pats over the last 20 years, this entire board would laugh and say "Thank God for Bill and his coaching staff..." Now when we do it, we're going to give Bill the benefit of the doubt, or even more strange, give the benefit of the doubt to guys like Patricia and Judge who are in positions that most of us knew would be a disaster the day they were announced? I don't get it.

And this idea that Bill had no other options in the off season is insane. There are dozens of coaches around the league and in college who would give their left nut to coach in the Patriots organization. It's Bill fucking Belichick. If you're a young computer programmer and Bill Gates gives you a ring and offers you a job/mentorship, are you hanging up on him?

Shane Steichen spent years with the Chargers, mostly as QB coach, and then he was OC on the Anthony Lynn helmed team and was let go. He was hired by Philly in 2021, and in 2022, Philly has the best offense in football.

In the offseason last year, Pederson hired Press Taylor, who was previously with Frank Reich in Indy as Asst. OC. Of course, Press Taylor and Pederson had history from their time in Philly together, so there was a fit there.

Bill probably could have figured out a way to keep Mick Lombardi from leaving to take the OC job under Josh in Las Vegas, maybe not.

Frank Smith was an assistant O Line coach with the Saints for 5 years, then was tight end coach with the Bears/Raiders for 6 years, did one year with the Chargers as OLine coach, and then McDaniel brought him to Miami this year as OC.

Mike Lafleur bounced around a few teams before Saleh hired him to be the OC last year when Saleh took the Jets job. His first OC job.

Tomlin went and found Matt Canada in the college ranks, hired him as QB coach in 2020, then gave him the reigns in 2021 as OC.

Dave Ragone was hired as OC for the Falcons, first OC job, in 2021, after spending 5 seasons on the offensive side of the ball in Chicago.

Luke Getsy spent 7 years on the offensive side of the ball in Green Bay, with a 1 year hiatus to Mississippi State, and then became a rookie OC this year for the Bears.

Ben Johnson spent 10 years in the NFL on offense with the Dolphins and Lions. When Bevell got fired and Campbell got hired, Campbell kept him on as TE coach, then made him OC this season.

Wes Phillips (Wade's son) has been in the NFL for over 14 years (plus 4 in college) all on the offensive side of the ball, never an OC. When O'Connor took the job in Minnesota, he brought Phillips with him and named him OC.

Mike Kafka spent 5 years with the Chiefs offensive coaching staff, never OC, and Daboll went and snagged him to be the OC this season for the Giants.

Shane Waldron who spent time with the Pats in 2008 and 2009, was never an OC, bounced from College back to the pros, was grabbed by Pete Carroll to be the OC in Seattle at the beginning of last year, after spending 4 seasons with McVay and the Rams on his staff.



Now, I'm not saying all of these guys are good hires, or even good coaches, I'm just pointing out that there is a TON of guys, and movement around the NFL for coordinators. The idea that BB only had a couple options to pick from and ended up with Patricia and Judge is just inane. This doesn't even get into the college ranks. He had options, he still has options, what he decides to do is anyone's guess, but he certainly has to own the decision either way. And I'm fully on record here and everywhere else that BB can coach the Pats for as long as he wants, with or without success, as far as I'm concerned.
So the fact that Bill took the same approach as when he hired OC Josh is insane? Sorry, not buying that.

No disagreement that Bill has to own the decisions he makes. And a roster talent issue doesn’t get him off the hook either. I just think a lot more went into the decision to hire Judge and Patricia than just stupidity, hubris, arrogance, desire to work only with his friends, or desire to boost his own salary (which is truly an inane take). Now, that doesn’t mean he made the right choices, nor that no changes are needed in 2023.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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That’s a good word for it. I think for Bill the idea that a good coach just coaches is nearly an article of faith. Remember he felt comfortable recommending Joe Judge to run the Giants based solely on his performance as ST coach, and he adores the Mara family.

I would love to know when Bill figured out he was really in trouble with his decisions this season.
My guess would be training camp, but who knows? Bill has been stiffing the local media for a couple decades now in terms of providing information, and we mostly laugh at the media for being naive for expecting anything else. I have a hard time cranking up feelings of indignation because Bill is continuing to be Bill.
 

Deathofthebambino

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So the fact that Bill took the same approach as when he hired OC Josh is insane? Sorry, not buying that.

No disagreement that Bill has to own the decisions he makes. And a roster talent issue doesn’t get him off the hook either. I just think a lot more went into the decision to hire Judge and Patricia than just stupidity, hubris, arrogance, desire to work only with his friends, or desire to boost his own salary (which is truly an inane take). Now, that doesn’t mean he made the right choices, nor that no changes are needed in 2023.
I see almost no analogy between the Josh move to OC and the Patricia move to OC, OL coach and playcaller. Josh was initially hired as a personnel assistant, then spent 2 years a "defensive assistant" and then became QB Coach in 2004. He remained QB coach in 2005. Tom Brady and the offense turned a corner in those years, and Josh was promoted from QB coach to OC. Bill recognized what he had, and made a move, and it was the right one.

Matt Patricia was an offensive assistant in 04, an assistant offensive line coach in 05 and BB did the complete opposite with him that he did with Josh. He moved Josh to offense, and moved Patricia to defense. Obviously, BB felt at that time that Patricia was better on that side of the ball, no? Patricia then spent 6 years coaching safeties and linebackers, and another 6 years as DC before going to Detroit. He then comes back last year under some advisory role (I'm not calling him asst head coach, Berj Najarian is in that role, always has been), and then is named OLine coach, OC, and playcaller.

I'm not saying it's stupidity, arrogance or hubris. That's talk radio bullshit, as is the financial/salary that shit that only one person posted, and was shouted down, so we can put that to bed. I'm saying it was a mistake. Plain and simple. A mistake a lot of us saw coming from a mile away.
 

BaseballJones

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Yeah I get so tired of the "arrogance" line. He may be arrogant (he may not be, I don't know one way or the other), but not every decision he makes is borne out of arrogance. Like every other coach or GM, he makes what he thinks are the best decisions. Everyone thinks it's arrogance because it's BB and because he doesn't give the media the time of day most of the time and he comes off like a jerk. From my conversations with people on the team, he's a much different person in reality than the vibe he gives off at press conferences. Not saying there's no arrogance there - I imagine every person who gets to that position in the NFL has *some* arrogance, I suppose - but I don't think that's what drives his decision-making. I think he just genuinely thinks he's making the best decisions he can.
 

Van Everyman

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I will say this: I think the most important priority for the offseason is for Kraft to resist the temptation to meddle or force Belichick into making certain decisions.

I know I am much more “Ride or Die” when it comes to Bill than some (most?) posters here. And maybe the 2022-23 season was, in fact, a result of hubris or Bill losing it.

But I read stories like this one (subs. required) and think the worst thing that could happen over the next few months is for Kraft to goaded into involving himself in anything other than negotiating contracts.

Putting aside whether you think Bill is still the GOAT or what he “deserves” if he is still the coach and GM you have to let him handle things. You want to talk to him about the need to shake things up on his coaching staff? Fine. But what you don’t do is tell him at 70 that he needs a supervisor, a certain coach or to handcuff him in some way.

Bill says he’s back for season 24 so I’m assuming they’ve discussed things at least on this level. But I’d sooner make a change at coach than “manage” his last few years. Hopefully Kraft understands that.
 

8slim

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I'm not saying it's stupidity, arrogance or hubris. That's talk radio bullshit, as is the financial/salary that shit that only one person posted, and was shouted down, so we can put that to bed. I'm saying it was a mistake. Plain and simple. A mistake a lot of us saw coming from a mile away.
Correct. The arguments about "hubris" or whatever are a side show, and seem to be a way for people to defend Bill without defending the results. Because the results from making Patricia the OC... well, they stunk. We know this because we have ways to measure results, and nearly all of them were very bad.
 

Shelterdog

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So if the Pats simply had McDermott all year long at RT instead of Wynn, how many games do the Pats win? An extra game? Two? How many?

And let's remember that McDermott was a practice squad player for the New York Jets. And he was that much better than Wynn.
Impossible to tell. McDermott's not particularly good and Wynn stopped playing about halfway through the season--it's very unclear that a moderate upgrade at RT would be enough to make up the difference with Baltimore/GB/Miami. I do think with more stability at RT and on the line in general the offense might have gotten on track a little sooner and maybe they would have turned from putrid to bad or even to ok offensively a little sooner, and maybe that makes the difference in a game or two?
 

Deathofthebambino

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I will say this: I think the most important priority for the offseason is for Kraft to resist the temptation to meddle or force Belichick into making certain decisions.

I know I am much more “Ride or Die” when it comes to Bill than some (most?) posters here. And maybe the 2022-23 season was, in fact, a result of hubris or Bill losing it.

But I read stories like this one (subs. required) and think the worst thing that could happen over the next few months is for Kraft to goaded into involving himself in anything other than negotiating contracts.

Putting aside whether you think Bill is still the GOAT or what he “deserves” if he is still the coach and GM you have to let him handle things. You want to talk to him about the need to shake things up on his coaching staff? Fine. But what you don’t do is tell him at 70 that he needs a supervisor, a certain coach or to handcuff him in some way.

Bill says he’s back for season 24 so I’m assuming they’ve discussed things at least on this level. But I’d sooner make a change at coach than “manage” his last few years. Hopefully Kraft understands that.
I think your last line says it all. I don't believe for even a second that RKK is mad at BB, or looking to involve himself in the day to day football decisions that Bill makes. I think it's a false narrative created by the Felger & Mazz's of the world, it takes root and all of a sudden, people see smoke where there are clouds.

Robert Kraft has made BILLIONS of dollars on the Pats because of BB. RKK was a fan of this team who wanted to see it succeed, and he's given no indication at any point in over two decades that he's going to question BB's decision making when it comes to football ops. BB is here to stay as long as he wants, and unless something significantly changes, I don't see RKK changing his approach in any way.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Btw, I thought these sections from the Athletic article linked upthread by @Van Everyman are relevant to the discussion. At the very least, we should hope that BB has a more defined hierarchy next season. Or else they really are just mid. The quote also adds some possible context for Mac getting all pissy.

Jones had always been well-liked in the locker room, but he earned additional respect for the way he continued to cheer on the offense after the head coach turned to his backup and the fan base cheered on his replacement.

As the season progressed, it was clear to other players how different Jones’ setup was to a year earlier. After drives, it wasn’t obvious whether he should talk with Belichick, Patricia or Judge first. Receivers ran into each other on routes. Players occasionally didn’t know plays at the line of scrimmage. Little on offense seemed coherent
.

Now if this happens again next season, we can start up a definitive "lost his fastball" thread. BB sees what we are seeing - the question is whether his potential solutions can work and how that will look.
 

Justthetippett

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I will say this: I think the most important priority for the offseason is for Kraft to resist the temptation to meddle or force Belichick into making certain decisions.

I know I am much more “Ride or Die” when it comes to Bill than some (most?) posters here. And maybe the 2022-23 season was, in fact, a result of hubris or Bill losing it.

But I read stories like this one (subs. required) and think the worst thing that could happen over the next few months is for Kraft to goaded into involving himself in anything other than negotiating contracts.

Putting aside whether you think Bill is still the GOAT or what he “deserves” if he is still the coach and GM you have to let him handle things. You want to talk to him about the need to shake things up on his coaching staff? Fine. But what you don’t do is tell him at 70 that he needs a supervisor, a certain coach or to handcuff him in some way.

Bill says he’s back for season 24 so I’m assuming they’ve discussed things at least on this level. But I’d sooner make a change at coach than “manage” his last few years. Hopefully Kraft understands that.
I don’t think either Robert or Jonathan will do this. The only wild card is age and the power sharing dynamic between them. Jonathan is more of an unknown. If Robert is still calling the shots, he will have to decide what his priorities are at this stage. I doubt very much they will change from what they have been (i.e. let BB do his thing), but we don’t really know where his head is at, other than a few anodyne public statements. I have to say the inability to land the plane with Brady and keep him here til the end might also play a role in how they approach Bill. It’s not a great look to have both finish their careers elsewhere, and I think they’ll do everything they can to avoid that outcome.
 

Jinhocho

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The problem is that what he felt was best coming into the season was in fact the worst thing for the team. Everyone knew it except for him. That's startling.
Or...

1) He felt given the departure of Josh and the loss of many other people on offense meant that he had to make some changes for the year that would backfill or tide over or result in a multi year transition process.

2) He thought the team wasnt ready to contend for a title and beginning the change now gave him a couple years.

3) Or he didnt want to hurt Saban so wanted a year for BoB.

We literally know nothing about his decision making process so this is basically down to a referendum on whether you trust Bill (long track record, not a stupid man, constantly evolving) or you do not (pray for RKK to force him or get rid of him etc).

I know which camp I belong to as I have seen nothing to suggest someone else would get more out of the Pats than BB.
 

Shelterdog

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I don’t think either Robert or Jonathan will do this. The only wild card is age and the power sharing dynamic between them. Jonathan is more of an unknown. If Robert is still calling the shots, he will have to decide what his priorities are at this stage. I doubt very much they will change from what they have been (i.e. let BB do his thing), but we don’t really know where his head is at, other than a few anodyne public statements. I have to say the inability to land the plane with Brady and keep him here til the end might also play a role in how they approach Bill. It’s not a great look to have both finish their careers elsewhere, and I think they’ll do everything they can to avoid that outcome.
If the Krafts do think they'll have to shitcan BB at some point rather than have he and Bob Kraft ride off into the sunset forever, I expect Bob will make firing BB his last act as primary owner to leave a clean slate for his kid..
 

Justthetippett

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If the Krafts do think they'll have to shitcan BB at some point rather than have he and Bob Kraft ride off into the sunset forever, I expect Bob will make firing BB his last act as primary owner to leave a clean slate for his kid..
Makes a lot of sense. Really hope it doesn’t come to that!
 

DJnVa

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This is just insane (apologies if this was posted here or in another thread, I missed it).

The touchback rate went from 63.6% to 7.3%? WOW.

 

BaseballJones

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And not just that the kickoffs were short; it's that Folk doesn't have the leg to kick those booming high kicks that land at the one but give the coverage team time to really get down there. They were more like line drives which gave the returner good space to run. It's still incredible that the Bills had TWO kickoff returns (uh, aided by egregious holding which wasn't called, which is crazy because holding or whatever seems to be called on nearly every return, but I digress) for touchdowns in the same game. That's insane.

But yeah, this has to be better next year for sure. Folk isn't the guy to handle kickoffs.
 

RedOctober3829

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Or...

1) He felt given the departure of Josh and the loss of many other people on offense meant that he had to make some changes for the year that would backfill or tide over or result in a multi year transition process.

2) He thought the team wasnt ready to contend for a title and beginning the change now gave him a couple years.

3) Or he didnt want to hurt Saban so wanted a year for BoB.

We literally know nothing about his decision making process so this is basically down to a referendum on whether you trust Bill (long track record, not a stupid man, constantly evolving) or you do not (pray for RKK to force him or get rid of him etc).

I know which camp I belong to as I have seen nothing to suggest someone else would get more out of the Pats than BB.
Where does hiring Patricia and Judge to be in charge of the offense fit into this and how was that good for the team as he says everything he does is? Putting those two in place speaks of arrogance in terms of thinking anyone can do the job no matter what experience they have. If he wanted O'Brien and he wasn't leaving then move on and find the person who puts the offense in the best possible position to succeed. Developing Mac Jones should have been the number one priority in who he hired and that wasn't nearly the case. Wasting a year of a rookie QB contract is malpractice.

It's not a referendum on if you trust Belichick or not. Bill has a great track record over the years, but if you can't criticize him for the moves he made for this year then you're just not looking at the situation objectively. Contrary to popular belief, your fandom won't be taken away if you do criticize him.
 

DJnVa

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Where does hiring Patricia and Judge to be in charge of the offense fit into this and how was that good for the team as he says everything he does is? Putting those two in place speaks of arrogance in terms of thinking anyone can do the job no matter what experience they have.
I don't know if it's arrogance that "anyone can do the job" or simply that BB prefers, and has had A LOT of success with, hiring coaches that he knows. With the brain drain over the last 2 seasons, he went with what was comfortable and what he has always done. It didn't work.

Over a span of 14 months starting at the conclusion of the 2020 season, Belichick lost his offensive coordinator, quarterbacks coach, running backs coach, wide receivers coach and offensive line coach, as well as trusted assistant Ernie Adams. Tight ends coach Nick Caley is the only offensive coach who remains in the same post from two years ago. All told, and including front office changes headlined by the departures of pro personnel directors Nick Caserio and Dave Ziegler, Belichick lost more than 150 years of experience working with him.
It’s reasonable for any coach to struggle when his staff undergoes such a drastic overhaul, but it was especially difficult for Belichick, who keeps a tight circle, only likes to hire coaches he already knows and fosters a demanding environment that can be difficult for some. Belichick’s current staff is filled with two of his sons (outside linebackers coach Steve Belichick and safeties coach Brian Belichick), four of his former players and two in their second stints working for him.

Since taking over the Patriots in 2000, Belichick has hired only one coordinator who didn’t previously work for him, and that hire (defensive coordinator Greg Schiano) quit before the season began.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Where does hiring Patricia and Judge to be in charge of the offense fit into this and how was that good for the team as he says everything he does is? Putting those two in place speaks of arrogance in terms of thinking anyone can do the job no matter what experience they have. If he wanted O'Brien and he wasn't leaving then move on and find the person who puts the offense in the best possible position to succeed. Developing Mac Jones should have been the number one priority in who he hired and that wasn't nearly the case. Wasting a year of a rookie QB contract is malpractice.

It's not a referendum on if you trust Belichick or not. Bill has a great track record over the years, but if you can't criticize him for the moves he made for this year then you're just not looking at the situation objectively. Contrary to popular belief, your fandom won't be taken away if you do criticize him.
While I don't think it is impossible for Patricia to become a credible OC eventually, the bolded is where I am really left shaking my head. Entering the season, no single thing was more important to the near-term future of the franchise than getting Mac Jones to take the leap from pretty good rookie QB to at least being a clear top-half-of-the-league starting QB. And that was put in the hands of......a former defensive coach with experience as a bad HC, and a former ST/WR coach with experience as a bad HC.

Not the time or place to have people learning on the job. And we are left not even knowing if we actually have the QB of the future.
 

8slim

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I don't know if it's arrogance that "anyone can do the job" or simply that BB prefers, and has had A LOT of success with, hiring coaches that he knows. With the brain drain over the last 2 seasons, he went with what was comfortable and what he has always done. It didn't work.
And again, I suspect he figured Patricia and Judge aren't going anywhere for a while. So if that worked out there would be continuity for the next few years.

Sadly, it didn't work out.
 

RedOctober3829

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I don't know if it's arrogance that "anyone can do the job" or simply that BB prefers, and has had A LOT of success with, hiring coaches that he knows. With the brain drain over the last 2 seasons, he went with what was comfortable and what he has always done. It didn't work.
Going with what's comfortable is great if they have an extensive offensive coaching background. When you put people in positions where they have next to no experience, it speaks of arrogance. It's time for him to step outside of his comfort zone and go get the best coaches he can. That way, if he has coordinators he can hand the keys of that side of the ball to he can take a CEO-type approach and not have to focus extensive time to one side of the ball or the other. The lack of attention to detail has been mind-blowing the last couple of years and I think if he had the time to take a 30,000 foot look at everything then that would mitigate a lot of the unforced errors we've seen.
 

54thMA

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At the time, I hated the judge/Patricia hires because, obviously, they did not seem to have much experience on the offense.
Pretty much everyone did.

Then when they struggled in camp, everyone still hated it.

Then when they struggled all season long, everyone still hated it.

Romo made some imbecilic comment on Sunday about how the offense has gelled/settled down/gotten into a rhythm the past few weeks.

Not sure what games he was watching that led him to that conclusion.

For, me two of the last three years have been a slog, totally unenjoyable, this year was especially bad, there was not at any time a thought of "Ok, we're to something now", at least for me.

2000 was the last time I can remember a season as unenjoyable as this one was from a fan perspective.

That in and of itself is pretty amazing to have a run like they did from 2001 through 2019.

Last year at one point they were the #1 seed and people were talking about Belichick is back, he's a genius, then they crapped themselves coming out of the bye to the Colts and it was all downhill from there.

If this team goes into 2023 with Patricia and Judge in their same roles, I feel as though were going to see more of what we saw this year.
 

lexrageorge

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Going with what's comfortable is great if they have an extensive offensive coaching background. When you put people in positions where they have next to no experience, it speaks of arrogance. It's time for him to step outside of his comfort zone and go get the best coaches he can. That way, if he has coordinators he can hand the keys of that side of the ball to he can take a CEO-type approach and not have to focus extensive time to one side of the ball or the other. The lack of attention to detail has been mind-blowing the last couple of years and I think if he had the time to take a 30,000 foot look at everything then that would mitigate a lot of the unforced errors we've seen.
I think Belichick's assessment of Judge's and Patricia's experience is very different from yours. That doesn't speak to arrogance. And I fail to see lack of attention to detail over the past couple of years.
 

Justthetippett

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This is just insane (apologies if this was posted here or in another thread, I missed it).

The touchback rate went from 63.6% to 7.3%? WOW.

Even if you grant them Palardy and his shitty below average punting because he was a vet and they knew what they were getting, they still had Vizcaino around and it’s shocking they did not activate him more often or find another JAG that could handle kickoffs. We’ll never get an explanation but this has to be one of the more mystifying decisions of the season.
 

Super Nomario

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I see almost no analogy between the Josh move to OC and the Patricia move to OC, OL coach and playcaller. Josh was initially hired as a personnel assistant, then spent 2 years a "defensive assistant" and then became QB Coach in 2004. He remained QB coach in 2005. Tom Brady and the offense turned a corner in those years, and Josh was promoted from QB coach to OC. Bill recognized what he had, and made a move, and it was the right one.
McDaniels remained QB coach in 2005, but he was calling plays that year since Weis had left for Notre Dame. So he had only one year of experience on the offensive side of the ball when he became the offensive playcaller.
 

Cellar-Door

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So obviously the Patricia and Judge experiment didn't work, BUT I don't think it was arrogance, or a lack of understanding by Bill. It was very much in keeping with his thoughts on coaching that we've heard about for years. He doesn't see coaching as a specialty area job, he thinks coaches are coaches, and that guys should get experience in a lot of things. He looks at coaching as being a lot of skills that are transferable everywhere, and a few bits of expertise that maybe are specialized. Long before this year, we heard about how Bill liked his coaches to get a taste of both sides of the ball, whether it was an official position or not. It probably comes from his own path, where he had coaching positions in all 3 phases along his way up. Most of the assistants he's had worked on both sides of the ball. I also would say, it's a bit misleading to talk about guys who were NFL head coaches as if that isn't experience on both sides. Every head coach, even the most hands off of them has involvement in both sides of the ball, they are the final say on game planning, on scheme, etc. HC is very much a both sides of the ball job (probably one reason Bill wants his assistants to get that experience as assistants so they have some framework on whichever side they focus less on in their coordinator career).
 

Jinhocho

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Where does hiring Patricia and Judge to be in charge of the offense fit into this and how was that good for the team as he says everything he does is? Putting those two in place speaks of arrogance in terms of thinking anyone can do the job no matter what experience they have. If he wanted O'Brien and he wasn't leaving then move on and find the person who puts the offense in the best possible position to succeed. Developing Mac Jones should have been the number one priority in who he hired and that wasn't nearly the case. Wasting a year of a rookie QB contract is malpractice.

It's not a referendum on if you trust Belichick or not. Bill has a great track record over the years, but if you can't criticize him for the moves he made for this year then you're just not looking at the situation objectively. Contrary to popular belief, your fandom won't be taken away if you do criticize him.
Josh leaves takes people expected/not expected to be gone, the bench is not deep, he is in a multi-year rebuild and wants his guys, so he experiments for a year with guys who know his thinking and approach in house. It might be it was a bridge to person X (BOB, Troy Brown, who knows) or it might have been a legit experiment to see if it would work longer term. None of us know AT ALL. I have not seen one thing where the logic of this has been explained except Bill has always believed that coaches can coach, as he has moved guys around based on team needs.
 
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RedOctober3829

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I think Belichick's assessment of Judge's and Patricia's experience is very different from yours. That doesn't speak to arrogance. And I fail to see lack of attention to detail over the past couple of years.
Judge had 1 year of offensive coaching experience since his coaching career began in 2005 until this year. Patricia had 2 years as an offensive GA in 2001-2003 at Syracuse then 2 seasons in the NFL(04 and 05) until this year. They both were unbelievable failures as head coaches. What of this makes them qualified to run an NFL offense?

Fail to see the lack of attention to detail? Between the pre-snap penalties, 12 men on the field or taking timeouts to avoid that penalty, play calls that aren't getting in timely, people running into each other in pass patterns, the special teams errors week after week, failures in the 2 minute drill and red zone, etc. The Patriots don't appear to be very well-coached the last few years.
 

Super Nomario

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Sorry if I wasn't clear. Speaks volumes about Wynn and about Bill the GM. Former first round pick being paid a lot, up for free agency, you're counting on him to start, your backup options of Herron/Cajuste/Cannon are clearly not good, so you totally depend on him and he plays like garbage physically and mentally? Maybe he's too banged up to function but one hundred percent this years Pats team desperately needed one more offensive tackle and BB's decision to hope to get buy with Wynn and Brown was, I think, his single biggest mistake.
The interior depth was just as poor, only it didn't burn them as much because Strange and Onwenu were healthy all year and Andrews only missed three games. Unsurprisingly, the stretch midseason where they had to play Ferentz and cycle through backup RTs, while playing a sick Trent Brown and facing really good DLs, the offense went through its worth period (basically Chicago through the second Jets game).

I'm not the highest on Mac but even his biggest fans would agree he's not ready to carry a team. I'm not as down on the WR/TE as some but obviously it's not a great unit. The strength of the team the last couple years had been the OL and they went into the season with a pretty good looking starting 5 (submarined as you note by Wynn's regression) and replacement-level backups. Honestly the lack of depth could have burned them even worse than it did.
 

rodderick

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The McDaniels comparison is flawed. First because Josh had already spent one year as QB coach under Weiss before becoming the play caller, which provides invaluable high level offensive coaching experience that neither Patricia nor Judge had, second because Josh was coming in to call plays for 28 year old, 3 time Super Bowl champion, top 3 QB Tom Brady, not coming in to try and develop Mac Jones in his second season with new offensive concepts. Josh was asked to provide continuity with a QB that at that point probably could carry a lot of the load on his own, he was put in a much, much better position to succeed and had a much more conventional career path.
 

RedOctober3829

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Josh leaves takes people expected/not expected to be gone, the bench is not deep, he is in a multi-year rebuild and wants his guys, so he experiments for a year with guys who know his thinking and approach in house. It might be it was a bridge to person X (BOB, Troy Brown, who knows) or it might have been a legit experiment. None of us know AT ALL. I have not seen one thing where the logic of this has been explained except Bill has always believed that coaches can coach, as he has moved guys around based on team needs.
"Experimenting" with Patricia and Judge running the offense is precisely my point of arrogance. Hardly anyone ever takes coaches that have been coaching on one side of the ball for many years then installs them as a coordinator on the other side of the ball because it never works. The only time I can remember this happening in recent memory was in Philadelphia when Andy Reid moved Juan Castillo from OL coach to DC. He lasted a year and half and was fired mid-season. It's easy for Bill to believe that coaches can coach and you can move from one side of the ball to the other with no problem because he was able to do it. Not everyone has the coaching acumen Bill has.
 

Shelterdog

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The interior depth was just as poor, only it didn't burn them as much because Strange and Onwenu were healthy all year and Andrews only missed three games. Unsurprisingly, the stretch midseason where they had to play Ferentz and cycle through backup RTs, while playing a sick Trent Brown and facing really good DLs, the offense went through its worth period (basically Chicago through the second Jets game).

I'm not the highest on Mac but even his biggest fans would agree he's not ready to carry a team. I'm not as down on the WR/TE as some but obviously it's not a great unit. The strength of the team the last couple years had been the OL and they went into the season with a pretty good looking starting 5 (submarined as you note by Wynn's regression) and replacement-level backups. Honestly the lack of depth could have burned them even worse than it did.
This is fair although at least they had Ferentz (who is pretty bad but at least has a ton of experience in system) so if you only had to fill in at one IOL for 2-3 games you might have thought (or I might have thought)that it would work out.

The IOL depth problem wasn't as obvious to me before the season as the tackle issue was because (1) you did have two established durable starters and a first round pick, (2) you could squint and think that maybe they had something useful this year in Himes/Russey (3) I believe there are more competent IOL than OTs so you can probably find somebody adequate and (4) I think you can hide a guard more easily than you can hide a tackle--as Rshard Gary and Robert Quinn showed us over and over. But certainly if Owenwu gets a high ankle sprain in week 3 this season we would have had an even bigger catastrophe.
 

Jinhocho

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So obviously the Patricia and Judge experiment didn't work, BUT I don't think it was arrogance, or a lack of understanding by Bill. It was very much in keeping with his thoughts on coaching that we've heard about for years. He doesn't see coaching as a specialty area job, he thinks coaches are coaches, and that guys should get experience in a lot of things. He looks at coaching as being a lot of skills that are transferable everywhere, and a few bits of expertise that maybe are specialized. Long before this year, we heard about how Bill liked his coaches to get a taste of both sides of the ball, whether it was an official position or not. It probably comes from his own path, where he had coaching positions in all 3 phases along his way up. Most of the assistants he's had worked on both sides of the ball. I also would say, it's a bit misleading to talk about guys who were NFL head coaches as if that isn't experience on both sides. Every head coach, even the most hands off of them has involvement in both sides of the ball, they are the final say on game planning, on scheme, etc. HC is very much a both sides of the ball job (probably one reason Bill wants his assistants to get that experience as assistants so they have some framework on whichever side they focus less on in their coordinator career).
Dante Scarneccia discussed this at length in a video earlier this year about the offensive coaching and the changed offensive game plans. He said fans and media obsess over this, but there are only so many things you can do. It is this blocking scheme (base) and this one we are incporating more of this year. Technique modifies a bit, roles a bit but every football player and coach knows that the difference is in the NFL. He just basically said the key was practice, repetition, and so on but that most of what people think is wrong when watching the games. It seemed quite similar to the mindset that Matt Chatham espouses on Twitter.
 

Super Nomario

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This is fair although at least they had Ferentz (who is pretty bad but at least has a ton of experience in system) so if you only had to fill in at one IOL for 2-3 games you might have thought (or I might have thought)that it would work out.

The IOL depth problem wasn't as obvious to me before the season as the tackle issue was because (1) you did have two established durable starters and a first round pick, (2) you could squint and think that maybe they had something useful this year in Himes/Russey (3) I believe there are more competent IOL than OTs so you can probably find somebody adequate and (4) I think you can hide a guard more easily than you can hide a tackle--as Rshard Gary and Robert Quinn showed us over and over. But certainly if Owenwu gets a high ankle sprain in week 3 this season we would have had an even bigger catastrophe.
Ferentz went from a guy on the practice squad in 2021 (and really, most of his career) to the top interior backup at the age of 33. It was sub-optimal for sure. You can also argue that the lack of interior depth hurt tackle too; in 2020 and 2021, Onwenu had kicked out to RT some and acquitted himself competently. I think they wanted to leave him at RG and not mess with him - but it wasn't even an option to use him as tackle depth, because you'd just be plugging in another replacement-level guy in Ferentz.

As for Hines and Russey, Hines missed his last 6 games of college and started camp on NFI; he got just three weeks or so of practice in before the season (and found himself on IR shortly thereafter). And Russey was a UDFA. It was a super thin OL group all around.
 

Shelterdog

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Ferentz went from a guy on the practice squad in 2021 (and really, most of his career) to the top interior backup at the age of 33. It was sub-optimal for sure. You can also argue that the lack of interior depth hurt tackle too; in 2020 and 2021, Onwenu had kicked out to RT some and acquitted himself competently. I think they wanted to leave him at RG and not mess with him - but it wasn't even an option to use him as tackle depth, because you'd just be plugging in another replacement-level guy in Ferentz.

As for Hines and Russey, Hines missed his last 6 games of college and started camp on NFI; he got just three weeks or so of practice in before the season (and found himself on IR shortly thereafter). And Russey was a UDFA. It was a super thin OL group all around.
Agreed all around, and you're right, I'm just doing my self scouting--I was more worried about tackle depth than IOL depth, and seeing how bad Ferentz was when he played and how Hines and Russey didn't actually have anything to contribute this year. (I harbored hopes that Russey was a new version of David Andrews, a small smart UDFA center who could contribute quickly--and Russey did have _60_ starts in college and strong grades in college. I also hoped that Hines was Owenwu 2.0, a really good guard who slipped because he was too fa, a hope burnished by his making the roster despite only three weeks of practice). Clearly I was wrong that either of them had anything to contribute in 2022.
 

Deathofthebambino

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This is just insane (apologies if this was posted here or in another thread, I missed it).

The touchback rate went from 63.6% to 7.3%? WOW.

There was a total of 6 kickoff return touchdowns in the NFL this season. The Patriots gave up 3 of them.

There was only 3 punt return touchdowns this year, the Pats didn't give up any of them and Marcus Jones had one of them, but the running into the kicker calls, the shanked punts, etc. were brutal.

Nyheim Hynes is tied for 16th in NFL history with 2 kickoff return touchdowns in ONE SEASON. If he got one more during the season, he would have been tied for 3rd. That's how bad that last game was by giving up 2 in the same game. It's only happened 10 other times in the history of the NFL.
 

Deathofthebambino

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McDaniels remained QB coach in 2005, but he was calling plays that year since Weis had left for Notre Dame. So he had only one year of experience on the offensive side of the ball when he became the offensive playcaller.
He was also 30 years old, apparently did a good job calling plays in 2005, and BB rewarded him with the OC spot in 2006.

Meanwhile, Matt Patricia, who was an offensive coach on that same team in 2005, got moved to defense, and then spent the next 12 consecutive seasons in New England coaching....defense. During those 12 seasons, the Pats had no OC in 2009, so BB didn't think Patricia was the man for the job then. Same thing in 2010. Then in 2011, he named BoB the OC after he coached the QB's for 2 seasons.

Then Patricia left here to become HC in Detroit, where, in his first year, he kept Jim Bob Cooter who's 4 years as OC (the final with Patricia) resulted in the Lions finishing no better than 13th in yards and 7th in points (which was buoyed by the defense/st scoring 7td's). He then fired Coote and hired Darrell Bevellr, who was so far passed his prime that the only person that didn't see it besides Patricia, was Urban Meyer, the guy who ended up hiring Bevell after Detroit dumped him.

Matt Patricia has never in his career shown an inclination or an ability to coach an offense. And BB made him not just the offensive coordinator, he handed him the keys to call plays and coach the offensive line. Josh McDaniels obviously showed something in 2004 as QB coach on the Super Bowl Champions, that BB was willing to keep him in that position, and then let him call plays the following season. Meanwhile, BB took Patricia and moved him to the other side of the ball.