Patriots' Priorities for the 2023 Season

Shelterdog

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Ok I guess. I mean, I know some guys associated with the Pats - one is a player you'd know very well - and they think he's great. They say his public (press conference/interview) persona is just a thing, and that isn't how he is in real life at all.

But either way, do you think him being an a-hole, as you put it, means he isn't likely to admit to making a mistake? Those seem like very different things.
I mean now we're talking semantics. I think one of the ways he's an a-hole is he takes a brusque defensive position about everything [in public] and while he'll give a generic "we have to do everything better including coach better" I don't think I've ever seen him admit to a single specific mistake in the 20 years he's coached.

EDIT: Also that he publicly plays the grouchy curmudgeon and is like Paul Rudd in private doesn't make him not a dick-- it means he's deliberately being kind of nasty to people in some contexts.
 

Saints Rest

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There's no way you can watch Lamar Jackson throw a football and think he looks anywhere close to how Newton looked in 2020. Dude was pumping medicine balls out there, his shoulder was completely shot.
True. But his shoulder was shot in some measure to the number of hits he took as a sublime running QB. And unlike Lamar, Cam had the size and strength to handle most of those hits.
 

Cellar-Door

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Hopkins is interesting... he's definitely entering (or in) the decline phase, but he's a great talent.
One thing I do wonder about though.... his skillset isn't exactly aligned to where Mac's is. He's basically a better version of Parker in that he doesn't get great vertical separation, or destroy guys in the open field, he's an elite contested catch boundary guy. Mac kind of struggled on those throws this year. He seemed to like the drop in the bucket throws that speedsters like Thornton and Agholor are best at (get the step, run to ball).
I'd obviously be thrilled with him at the right price and he'd upgrade the unit quite a bit (especially if they bring back Jakobi and run a top 5 of D-Hop, Jakobi, Parker, Thornton, Bourne).
 

Deathofthebambino

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I will buy a ticket to watch Lamar Jackson play football any time. But I don't want him to be the QB of the New England Patriots.

Just remember, he turned down a 5yr/250mil (with 133mil guaranteed) extension offer from Baltimore in September. That's the type of numbers he's going to command.

He missed the last 4 games last year with injury. Baltimore went 0-4, because you have to design your entire offense around him. They missed the playoffs.

This season, he's missed the last 5 games, Baltimore has gone 2-3, and he appears to be ready to miss the WC game.

In his prior seasons, teams have eaten him alive in the playoffs. The Ravens have gone 1-3 in his playoff games. Baltimore scored 17, 12, 20 and 3 points in those games, and his stats are as follows:

55.8% completion percentage on 76/136, 3tds, 5ints, 68.3 rating, 19 sacks. He did run for 367 yards and 1td in those games, but he fumbled 5 times, and lost 2 of them also. They lost to the Chargers at home, Tennessee at home, and then beat Tennessee on the road and lost to Buffalo on the road.

Lamar Jackson is a once in a generation athlete, but for $50mil a year, I don't think he's the guy taking you to the promised land, given the depleted roster that would be around him given how much you have to commit to him from the cap.
 

deythur

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Hopkins is interesting... he's definitely entering (or in) the decline phase, but he's a great talent.
One thing I do wonder about though.... his skillset isn't exactly aligned to where Mac's is. He's basically a better version of Parker in that he doesn't get great vertical separation, or destroy guys in the open field, he's an elite contested catch boundary guy. Mac kind of struggled on those throws this year. He seemed to like the drop in the bucket throws that speedsters like Thornton and Agholor are best at (get the step, run to ball).
I'd obviously be thrilled with him at the right price and he'd upgrade the unit quite a bit (especially if they bring back Jakobi and run a top 5 of D-Hop, Jakobi, Parker, Thornton, Bourne).
He also has a full no trade, why would he choose to come to NE? There has to be better options for him.
 

j44thor

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D Hop is rumored to want a big extension hence the desire by AZ to move him. He has a lot of wear and tear on him, no way would I give up meaningful assets and pay him a big extension that is almost certainly to age poorly perhaps as early as next season. He was on a downward trend until his PED suspension gave him new legs.
 

BaseballJones

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I mean now we're talking semantics. I think one of the ways he's an a-hole is he takes a brusque defensive position about everything [in public] and while he'll give a generic "we have to do everything better including coach better" I don't think I've ever seen him admit to a single specific mistake in the 20 years he's coached.

EDIT: Also that he publicly plays the grouchy curmudgeon and is like Paul Rudd in private doesn't make him not a dick-- it means he's deliberately being kind of nasty to people in some contexts.
Admitting a mistake to us is different than admitting it to his coaches or players. I’m not sure why you think he owes us this.

But whatever.
 

Shelterdog

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Admitting a mistake to us is different than admitting it to his coaches or players. I’m not sure why you think he owes us this.

But whatever.
He doesn’t owe us anything, but the fact that his public persona is a rude graceless bully who doesn’t admit mistakes is why I think he’s kind of a dick.
 

JCizzle

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Is it really that controversial that BB is a dick? He's the best coach of all time. Bill Walsh was a dick too, despite his greatness. I'd be more concerned if my generationally great coach wasn't a dick.
 

BaseballJones

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Is it really that controversial that BB is a dick? He's the best coach of all time. Bill Walsh was a dick too, despite his greatness. I'd be more concerned if my generationally great coach wasn't a dick.
My point is simply that we only see the press conference/media persona he puts forth, which, for all we know, might be a dog and pony show and not indicative of who he really is. As I said, I know some people in the organization and they love the guy and think he's great. So maybe the "dick" part is an act, for all we know.

I mean, I GET where this impression comes from, but we don't really know the guy, right? That's all I'm saying.

But it doesn't matter in terms of coaching the team. He's going to make what HE thinks are the right decisions, whether we like them or not.
 

Salva135

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The origin of this debate was the contention that he wouldn't admit a coaching mistake to the press because he's a dick - and for our purposes, that means being a dick to the public. He can save all of the puppies from burning buildings in his private life, but his public persona is that of a grade-A dick, and that's not up for much debate. Unless you ask him about long snappers or Paul Brown, then he's a sweetheart.
 

Salva135

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Yeah I get so tired of the "arrogance" line. He may be arrogant (he may not be, I don't know one way or the other), but not every decision he makes is borne out of arrogance. Like every other coach or GM, he makes what he thinks are the best decisions. Everyone thinks it's arrogance because it's BB and because he doesn't give the media the time of day most of the time and he comes off like a jerk. From my conversations with people on the team, he's a much different person in reality than the vibe he gives off at press conferences. Not saying there's no arrogance there - I imagine every person who gets to that position in the NFL has *some* arrogance, I suppose - but I don't think that's what drives his decision-making. I think he just genuinely thinks he's making the best decisions he can.
I think the concept of BB's "arrogance" stems more from his decisions than his personality. When the Pats are one of (last time I checked) 3 NFL teams not to subscribe to a national scouting service, and we sit in disbelief every draft when he takes a player nobody had on their radar, we think of that as an arrogance that he doesn't need to take consensus feed for scouting info. We know for a fact that he went against the recommendations of his scouts to take N'Keal Harry based on his relationship with N"Keal's coach. I'll go on record as believing this isn't an isolated incident, and BB steps in and makes draft decisions against his scouts' wishes much more often than we'd like to know, hence all of the head-scratchers.

Putting Patricia/Judge in such a critical position in a young QB's career when the rest of the league was skeptical is also along those lines.

To be fair, I don't think BB is arrogant as much as he really doesn't give a shit about what anyone else thinks about any professional choices he makes. That's fine, and even cute when your team is winning. It doesn't fly when your team sucks or is noticeably deficient in certain areas.

He's reportedly had his meeting with Kraft, and apparently, changes to the org will be made, so it will be telling how BB reacts to this. This is the first time I can recall in his Pats tenure that I have ever heard of a "BB meets with Kraft and knows changes have to be made" conversation. This is unprecedented in his tenure, a true sign that this is not the same as it's always been.

Oh, and let's not forget he's the only coach in the league, the most visible and recognizable, who doesn't lend his identity to the NFLPA to allow himself to be in NFL video games. That's an unequivocal dick/anti-social move. He's also routinely missing from the coaches' photo at the NFL annual meetings. Dick! (Kinda kidding).
 
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Marciano490

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The origin of this debate was the contention that he wouldn't admit a coaching mistake to the press because he's a dick - and for our purposes, that means being a dick to the public. He can save all of the puppies from burning buildings in his private life, but his public persona is that of a grade-A dick, and that's not up for much debate. Unless you ask him about long snappers or Paul Brown, then he's a sweetheart.
Isn’t this the same dude who married a much younger actress and is friends with Trump? Seems like he likes celebrity and access and probably would prefer to be loved (wouldn’t most?). So, I really think he must believe it gives him a competitive advantage.
 

cornwalls@6

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Isn’t this the same dude who married a much younger actress and is friends with Trump? Seems like he likes celebrity and access and probably would prefer to be loved (wouldn’t most?). So, I really think he must believe it gives him a competitive advantage.
Are you talking about BB or Kraft? Linda Holliday is 60, and they’re not married as far as anyone knows.
 

lexrageorge

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He's reportedly had his meeting with Kraft, and apparently, changes to the org will be made, so it will be telling how BB reacts to this. This is the first time I can recall in his Pats tenure that I have ever heard of a "BB meets with Kraft and knows changes have to be made" conversation. This is unprecedented in his tenure, a true sign that this is not the same as it's always been.
Time to point out that BB and Kraft get together at the end of every season for a similar discussion (as per past statements by both Belichick and Kraft). We just didn't hear as much about the other discussions; either the team was coming off a Super Bowl appearance or a long playoff run most years, so nobody really cared what was said.

I'm sure the tone and content of the conversation was indeed different. It was the first truly disappointing season, when compared with expectations, since perhaps 2009, when the team was clearly aging out on both sides of the ball (and the Pats responded by drafting McCourty, Gronk, and Hernandez and proceeded to go 14-2). I noted upthread that it would be both shocking and surprising if Bill told Kraft that he thought everything was fine and was planning to make no changes anywhere.

But I will also say we don't know exactly what was said. Who was in this meeting? Was just Belichick and Robert Kraft? Was Jonathan Kraft there as well? Any other members of the football operations staff? If it was just with BB and RK, then clearly one (or both) leaked some details either directly to the media or to several others who, in turn, leaked the details. Either way, there's a bit of strategic leaking going on as well; one or both wanted fans, sponsors, and season ticket holders to get that message that there will be changes. Which is fine, but it does mean that there were probably some details that were left out of the media reports.

As for arrogance, Belichick is an NFL head coach, and a very successful one at that. NFL coaches are not exactly known for humility, and that includes media darlings like Pete Carroll and Sean McVay. As for drafting, yes he drafted N'Keal Harry, but has since had 3 consecutive drafts that look to be fairly strong. Even the Steelers and Ravens occasionally draft an Artie Burns or a Rashod Bateman in the first round.
 

DJnVa

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If anyone wants to play around with a mock draft sim: https://www.pff.com/draft/nfl-mock-draft-simulator

For fun, I wanted to see what the #1 would cost me. It was a lot. The #1 this year, next year, and year after, 2 4th rounders this year, and a 5th next year. Bryce Young to NE though!
 
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Shelterdog

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Time to point out that BB and Kraft get together at the end of every season for a similar discussion (as per past statements by both Belichick and Kraft). We just didn't hear as much about the other discussions; either the team was coming off a Super Bowl appearance or a long playoff run most years, so nobody really cared what was said.

I'm sure the tone and content of the conversation was indeed different. It was the first truly disappointing season, when compared with expectations, since perhaps 2009, when the team was clearly aging out on both sides of the ball (and the Pats responded by drafting McCourty, Gronk, and Hernandez and proceeded to go 14-2). I noted upthread that it would be both shocking and surprising if Bill told Kraft that he thought everything was fine and was planning to make no changes anywhere.

But I will also say we don't know exactly what was said. Who was in this meeting? Was just Belichick and Robert Kraft? Was Jonathan Kraft there as well? Any other members of the football operations staff? If it was just with BB and RK, then clearly one (or both) leaked some details either directly to the media or to several others who, in turn, leaked the details. Either way, there's a bit of strategic leaking going on as well; one or both wanted fans, sponsors, and season ticket holders to get that message that there will be changes. Which is fine, but it does mean that there were probably some details that were left out of the media reports.

As for arrogance, Belichick is an NFL head coach, and a very successful one at that. NFL coaches are not exactly known for humility, and that includes media darlings like Pete Carroll and Sean McVay. As for drafting, yes he drafted N'Keal Harry, but has since had 3 consecutive drafts that look to be fairly strong. Even the Steelers and Ravens occasionally draft an Artie Burns or a Rashod Bateman in the first round.
One interesting thing that came out in the discussion of the end of season meeting is that historically apparently BB does not give Kraft a lot more information than he gives the media in his end of season wrap up (looking for where I saw this, it was Curran or Bedard) -- it's kind of crazy that BB is able to do that but hey, why mess with success.

I do think Kraft is smart enough not to try and be to controlling in a field where he knows a lot less than basically the greatest expert the field has ever had so I'll bet he put his suggestions as questions focussed on structure of the coaching staff rather than as imperatives. (i.e. can we give clearer roles, don't we need a full time dedicated OL coach, better chain of command on offense where Mac is talking to you and/or Matty and/or judge, getting plays in on time was an issue can we simplify that structure, can we add an experienced voice to designing the offense, can we get extra help on special teams) rather than saying fire X or hire Y. And if it really is true that the Krafts have been generally very very hands off and respectful of BB's expertise, I'll bet BB is smart enough to make some changes--changes he must know are needed because the offense and ST were bad--in order to keep the peace.

EDIT: Did the PFF Mock draft, I got Jordan Addison and Nate Solder 2.0 Blake Freeland (could have had the Illinois corner in the second as well), I'm ready to rock.
 

Super Nomario

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One interesting thing that came out in the discussion of the end of season meeting is that historically apparently BB does not give Kraft a lot more information than he gives the media in his end of season wrap up (looking for where I saw this, it was Curran or Bedard) -- it's kind of crazy that BB is able to do that but hey, why mess with success.
I saw something about this too, and it surprised me because (I think it was in the Halberstam book but I can't find it) Belichick and Kraft had a good relationship and dating back to 1997, Kraft liked Belichick in part because he would explain things to him where Parcells would not. So either the reporting then was off, the reporting now is off, or things have changed over the years and Belichick has become more reserved with Kraft.

EDIT: I couldn't find it in Halberstam, because it was in Patriot Reign, the first Holley book.
 
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Shelterdog

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I saw something about this too, and it surprised me because (I think it was in the Halberstam book but I can't find it) Belichick and Kraft had a good relationship and dating back to 1997, Kraft liked Belichick in part because he would explain things to him where Parcells would not. So either the reporting then was off, the reporting now is off, or things have changed over the years and Belichick has become more reserved with Kraft.
The new reporting seems wrong doesn't it? If I owned the team and paid BB 20 million bucks a year or whatever I would absolutely be like "What went wrong with Isiah Wynn, I thought he was supposed to be athletic and smart and not unathletic and dumb" all the damn time just out of curiosity even if I let him run the whole thing by himself.

In the football life about the 2009 season BB was pretty brusque when asked by Kraft about what the weather conditions would mean--that scene kind of struck me although I haven't seen it in more than a decade

EDIT: Didn't Patriot Reign have a snippet about Kraft coming to the off-season meeting and saying nothing much other than "isn't there an issue with Damien Woody's snapping from the shotgun" after everyone else had said Woody was great, etc. It struck me that (1) KRaft was definitely being allowed in the room for substantive discussions at that point, (2) Kraft was (IIRC) asking a question not to impose his will but to say in essence I'm here and do be self critical and (3) the Pats let Woody go showing perhaps some sensitivity to the message Kraft was trying to send before making Woody one of if not the highest paid IOL of all time.
There was also a bit where the coaches were saying this player is good, this player is good--and BB said in essence they all fucking sucks and told his young coaching assistant Josh mcD to play the cutup tape of the 2001 pats being totally unathletic and bad.
 
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DJnVa

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EDIT: Did the PFF Mock draft, I got Jordan Addison and Nate Solder 2.0 Blake Freeland (could have had the Illinois corner in the second as well), I'm ready to rock.
Addison has only been available in 1 mock I ran there out of like 10.

One time I just kept trading back and ended up with 17 picks.
 

ehaz

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With all the cap space New England has available I took a look at the big FAs at positions of need. Are any of these guys fits for the Pats schematically?

- OT: Orlando Brown
- OT: Mike McGlinchey
- S: Jessie Bates
- CB: Jamel Dean
- CB: James Bradberry
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think the concept of BB's "arrogance" stems more from his decisions than his personality. When the Pats are one of (last time I checked) 3 NFL teams not to subscribe to a national scouting service, and we sit in disbelief every draft when he takes a player nobody had on their radar, we think of that as an arrogance that he doesn't need to take consensus feed for scouting info. We know for a fact that he went against the recommendations of his scouts to take N'Keal Harry based on his relationship with N"Keal's coach. I'll go on record as believing this isn't an isolated incident, and BB steps in and makes draft decisions against his scouts' wishes much more often than we'd like to know, hence all of the head-scratchers.

Putting Patricia/Judge in such a critical position in a young QB's career when the rest of the league was skeptical is also along those lines.

To be fair, I don't think BB is arrogant as much as he really doesn't give a shit about what anyone else thinks about any professional choices he makes. That's fine, and even cute when your team is winning. It doesn't fly when your team sucks or is noticeably deficient in certain areas.

He's reportedly had his meeting with Kraft, and apparently, changes to the org will be made, so it will be telling how BB reacts to this. This is the first time I can recall in his Pats tenure that I have ever heard of a "BB meets with Kraft and knows changes have to be made" conversation. This is unprecedented in his tenure, a true sign that this is not the same as it's always been.

Oh, and let's not forget he's the only coach in the league, the most visible and recognizable, who doesn't lend his identity to the NFLPA to allow himself to be in NFL video games. That's an unequivocal dick/anti-social move. He's also routinely missing from the coaches' photo at the NFL annual meetings. Dick! (Kinda kidding).
Here's the thing, as someone that owns their own business, (and yes, I know BB doesn't "own" the Patriots, but he does own the football operations so to speak) it's my ass on the line if my employees make the wrong strategic decisions. If I think they are making a bad move, I don't have to do anything more than say "No." If I let them make the wrong play, and it doesn't work, I eat the fallout. If I make a different call, I also eat the fallout. I absolutely don't owe shit to any third party to explain my decisions, as the media so desperately wants from BB.

It's not arrogance, it's how organizations with structures work. His structure has worked better than anyone else's in the history of his industry, so folks can call it arrogance or hubris or whatever. I call it successful.

How do we know his "scouts" weren't advocating for some guy who sucked, where BB took Dugger? How do we know his scouts/assistants weren't telling him to let Brady go in 2000 instead of keeping him on the roster? How do we know that instead of Judon, Uche, Rham, McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis and Randy Moss and Welker and Gronk and Edelman and on and on on, his scouts weren't advising to do something else?

We don't, we're focusing on moves that didn't work and blaming those moves on arrogance, while not acknowledging the other side of the coin on the moves that did work and giving him credit for it.

He's also the guy that stands up there after every loss and says "We have to be better, from the coaching to the players executing...." or some variation of that? We've heard all of the cliches so many times over such a long period of time that they come off as dickish because we want something different, but why would the most impressive leopard in the world change their spots?
 

tims4wins

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Here's the thing, as someone that owns their own business, (and yes, I know BB doesn't "own" the Patriots, but he does own the football operations so to speak) it's my ass on the line if my employees make the wrong strategic decisions. If I think they are making a bad move, I don't have to do anything more than say "No." If I let them make the wrong play, and it doesn't work, I eat the fallout. If I make a different call, I also eat the fallout. I absolutely don't owe shit to any third party to explain my decisions, as the media so desperately wants from BB.

It's not arrogance, it's how organizations with structures work. His structure has worked better than anyone else's in the history of his industry, so folks can call it arrogance or hubris or whatever. I call it successful.

How do we know his "scouts" weren't advocating for some guy who sucked, where BB took Dugger? How do we know his scouts/assistants weren't telling him to let Brady go in 2000 instead of keeping him on the roster? How do we know that instead of Judon, Uche, Rham, McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis and Randy Moss and Welker and Gronk and Edelman and on and on on, his scouts weren't advising to do something else?

We don't, we're focusing on moves that didn't work and blaming those moves on arrogance, while not acknowledging the other side of the coin on the moves that did work and giving him credit for it.

He's also the guy that stands up there after every loss and says "We have to be better, from the coaching to the players executing...." or some variation of that? We've heard all of the cliches so many times over such a long period of time that they come off as dickish because we want something different, but why would the most impressive leopard in the world change their spots?
None of what you say is wrong, and BB always says the buck stops with him. I think the frustration (at least my own, which is probably less than most, but nonetheless building) is that there is never any specific mention of fault. It is always “we have to be better”. Well duh. What do we have to be better at? I’m not necessarily even asking for say a mea culpa on the kicker they drafted. But a bit more detail would sure be nice.

Again, this was all easier when they were banging out 12 wins and an AFCCG appearance every year. It wasn’t always fun but it was acceptable because there was far less to fix. Now that they have issues to fix, I’d like to hear what those issues are, why they might have arisen, and how they’ll be addressed. I say this fully realizing BB will never do that and it is part of the package for better or worse. But it’s increasingly frustrating.
 

Saints Rest

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None of what you say is wrong, and BB always says the buck stops with him. I think the frustration (at least my own, which is probably less than most, but nonetheless building) is that there is never any specific mention of fault. It is always “we have to be better”. Well duh. What do we have to be better at? I’m not necessarily even asking for say a mea culpa on the kicker they drafted. But a bit more detail would sure be nice.

Again, this was all easier when they were banging out 12 wins and an AFCCG appearance every year. It wasn’t always fun but it was acceptable because there was far less to fix. Now that they have issues to fix, I’d like to hear what those issues are, why they might have arisen, and how they’ll be addressed. I say this fully realizing BB will never do that and it is part of the package for better or worse. But it’s increasingly frustrating.
My sense is that BB knows that one can internally identify the things that need fixing without telling the world of his observations or his plans for fixing them -- sometimes for competitive advantage, but sometimes for actual kindness to those involved, especially when those actual human beings might be part of the planned fix.

For example, he might know that the solution to the kick coverage issues is a player better suited to kick off than a 40 year old vet who has a terrifically accurate leg for short kicks, but if he says "the reason we game up two return TDs is because Nick fucking Folk can't kick it deeper than Nicky Foxboro" is an insult to the guy who has been as close to Mr. Reliable from inside 40 yards as any kicker in history. And he might want said Mr Reliable back in 2023 kicking all his FGs.
 

Spelunker

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Praise publicly / blame privately is a pretty tried-and-true way of running things.
 

Bigdogx

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I will buy a ticket to watch Lamar Jackson play football any time. But I don't want him to be the QB of the New England Patriots.

Just remember, he turned down a 5yr/250mil (with 133mil guaranteed) extension offer from Baltimore in September. That's the type of numbers he's going to command.

He missed the last 4 games last year with injury. Baltimore went 0-4, because you have to design your entire offense around him. They missed the playoffs.

This season, he's missed the last 5 games, Baltimore has gone 2-3, and he appears to be ready to miss the WC game.

In his prior seasons, teams have eaten him alive in the playoffs. The Ravens have gone 1-3 in his playoff games. Baltimore scored 17, 12, 20 and 3 points in those games, and his stats are as follows:

55.8% completion percentage on 76/136, 3tds, 5ints, 68.3 rating, 19 sacks. He did run for 367 yards and 1td in those games, but he fumbled 5 times, and lost 2 of them also. They lost to the Chargers at home, Tennessee at home, and then beat Tennessee on the road and lost to Buffalo on the road.

Lamar Jackson is a once in a generation athlete, but for $50mil a year, I don't think he's the guy taking you to the promised land, given the depleted roster that would be around him given how much you have to commit to him from the cap.
No thanks at over 200, the guys numbers have been dwindling year after year along with his games played stat.
 

j44thor

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If anyone wants to play around with a mock draft sim: https://www.pff.com/draft/nfl-mock-draft-simulator



For fun, I wanted to see what the #1 would cost me. It was a lot. The #1 this year, next year, and year after, 2 4th rounders this year, and a 5th next year. Bryce Young to NE though!
I traded out of 14 to 19 and picked up an extra 2nd. Ended up with JSN, Darnell Washington and Pat Freelund. I'm giving myself an A thus far. Could have taken Addison at 14 but prefer JSN.
 

Cellar-Door

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I traded out of 14 to 19 and picked up an extra 2nd. Ended up with JSN, Darnell Washington and Pat Freelund. I'm giving myself an A thus far. Could have taken Addison at 14 but prefer JSN.
It's early so those sims are gonna be rough, but I strongly suggest changing the default on positional value, otherwise the QBs fall way too far.
 

tims4wins

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My sense is that BB knows that one can internally identify the things that need fixing without telling the world of his observations or his plans for fixing them -- sometimes for competitive advantage, but sometimes for actual kindness to those involved, especially when those actual human beings might be part of the planned fix.

For example, he might know that the solution to the kick coverage issues is a player better suited to kick off than a 40 year old vet who has a terrifically accurate leg for short kicks, but if he says "the reason we game up two return TDs is because Nick fucking Folk can't kick it deeper than Nicky Foxboro" is an insult to the guy who has been as close to Mr. Reliable from inside 40 yards as any kicker in history. And he might want said Mr Reliable back in 2023 kicking all his FGs.
Yeah, again, I get it. I don't love your example because I highly doubt Folk would take any offense to that, and I also disagree that BB thinks it is an acceptable excuse - regardless of how far you kick it, you should never ever ever ever give up two returns for TDs in a game.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
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May 31, 2007
47,920
Yeah, again, I get it. I don't love your example because I highly doubt Folk would take any offense to that, and I also disagree that BB thinks it is an acceptable excuse - regardless of how far you kick it, you should never ever ever ever give up two returns for TDs in a game.
Should never give up 2 KO return TDs in a season. It was such a huge collapse by this unit. There were 6 KO return TDs all year across the league. We gave up 2 in one game, a game that decided our playoff fate. Choke city.
 

Shelterdog

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15,375
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Yeah, again, I get it. I don't love your example because I highly doubt Folk would take any offense to that, and I also disagree that BB thinks it is an acceptable excuse - regardless of how far you kick it, you should never ever ever ever give up two returns for TDs in a game.
Right but does saying one of our core ST guys was out for the game, and Pierre Strong messed up his lane coverage, and Peppers was too aggressive and f'ing bryant should have made more of a tackle on the second one-do those specifics actually help anything?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
25,476
Here's the thing, as someone that owns their own business, (and yes, I know BB doesn't "own" the Patriots, but he does own the football operations so to speak) it's my ass on the line if my employees make the wrong strategic decisions. If I think they are making a bad move, I don't have to do anything more than say "No." If I let them make the wrong play, and it doesn't work, I eat the fallout. If I make a different call, I also eat the fallout. I absolutely don't owe shit to any third party to explain my decisions, as the media so desperately wants from BB.

It's not arrogance, it's how organizations with structures work. His structure has worked better than anyone else's in the history of his industry, so folks can call it arrogance or hubris or whatever. I call it successful.

How do we know his "scouts" weren't advocating for some guy who sucked, where BB took Dugger? How do we know his scouts/assistants weren't telling him to let Brady go in 2000 instead of keeping him on the roster? How do we know that instead of Judon, Uche, Rham, McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis and Randy Moss and Welker and Gronk and Edelman and on and on on, his scouts weren't advising to do something else?

We don't, we're focusing on moves that didn't work and blaming those moves on arrogance, while not acknowledging the other side of the coin on the moves that did work and giving him credit for it.

He's also the guy that stands up there after every loss and says "We have to be better, from the coaching to the players executing...." or some variation of that? We've heard all of the cliches so many times over such a long period of time that they come off as dickish because we want something different, but why would the most impressive leopard in the world change their spots?
Exactly. And here's the thing about BB that people seem to forget. When they succeed, he ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS gives credit to his players first, and his coaches second. He never - to my knowledge has NEVER publicly - taken credit for the team's success. Not even a little. He always deflects praise to others. But when things go wrong, he's always saying that it starts with him and that he needs to do a better job coaching. He doesn't get into specifics, but he always starts with him when things go poorly.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
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Right but does saying one of our core ST guys was out for the game, and Pierre Strong messed up his lane coverage, and Peppers was too aggressive and f'ing bryant should have made more of a tackle on the second one-do those specifics actually help anything?
Doesn't help from the perspective of reversing the result of the game, no. It would help me feel better.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
18,840
Yeah, again, I get it. I don't love your example because I highly doubt Folk would take any offense to that, and I also disagree that BB thinks it is an acceptable excuse - regardless of how far you kick it, you should never ever ever ever give up two returns for TDs in a game.
Should never give up 2 KO return TDs in a season. It was such a huge collapse by this unit. There were 6 KO return TDs all year across the league. We gave up 2 in one game, a game that decided our playoff fate. Choke city.
Belichick obviously realizes that the performance of the kick coverage unit against Buffalo was unacceptable. It's so obvious that it does not need to be explicitly stated. But the performance of the unit does mean Belichick should point fingers at individual players or coaches. He has literally never done that in his entire career with the Patriots, as he realizes that there is absolutely zero benefit to doing so. That's just who he is, and he isn't changing that approach anytime soon. Free agents seem pretty excited to play for him when they arrive, so he must be doing something right.

Praise publicly / blame privately is a pretty tried-and-true way of running things.
True leaders acknowledge and agree with this wholeheartedly.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
25,476
No thanks at over 200, the guys numbers have been dwindling year after year along with his games played stat.
Lamar Jackson, last 4 years:

2019
- 401 pass att, 3,127 yds, 36 td, 6 int
- 22 sacks, -106 yds
- 176 rush, 1,206 yds, 7 td, 5 fum lost
- TOT: 599 touches, 4,227 yds, 43 td, 11 turnovers, 7.06 yds/touch, 13.9 touches/td, 54.5 touches/turnover

2020
- 376 pass att, 2,757 yds, 26 td, 9 int
- 29 sacks, -160 yds
- 159 rush, 1,005 yds, 7 td, 6 fum lost
- TOT: 564 touches, 3,602 yds, 33 td, 15 turnovers, 6.39 yds/touch, 17.1 touches/td, 37.6 touches/turnover

2021
- 382 pass att, 2,882 yds, 16 td, 13 int
- 38 sacks, -190 yds
- 133 rush, 767 yds, 2 td, 4 fum lost
- TOT: 553 touches, 3,459 yds, 18 td, 17 turnovers, 6.25 yds/touch, 30.7 touches/td, 32.6 touches/turnover

2022
- 326 pass att, 2,242 yds, 17 td, 7 int
- 26 sacks, -114 yds
- 112 rush, 764 yds, 3 td, 3 fum lost
- TOT: 464 touches, 2,892 yds, 20 td, 10 turnovers, 6.23 yds/touch, 23.2 touches/td, 46.4 touches/turnover

His effectiveness has definitely been decreasing as a trend, though 2022 was better than 2021 from an efficiency standpoint. Still, the overall trend is NOT in the right direction for him.
 

8slim

has trust issues
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
26,060
Unreal America
If BB makes substantial changes I'll give him a lot of credit. I'm a Syracuse hoops fan and I've been scarred by the way Jim Boeheim has steadfastly refused to make any changes to his staff or scheme as the program has collapsed into irrelevance over the past several years. I was a bit worried that BB might exhibit similar behavior as he's reached his 70s.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
25,476
If BB makes substantial changes I'll give him a lot of credit. I'm a Syracuse hoops fan and I've been scarred by the way Jim Boeheim has steadfastly refused to make any changes to his staff or scheme as the program has collapsed into irrelevance over the past several years. I was a bit worried that BB might exhibit similar behavior as he's reached his 70s.
Agree 100% on both BB and JB at the Cuse. It's been so infuriating to watch the program dissolve. Just unwilling to change as the game has changed. BB doesn't appear to be like that at all.
 

Van Everyman

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Newton
Curran:
THE MEETING, I am told, has happened. There is no impasse. The Patriots are on to 2023 with Belichick acknowledging 2022 wasn’t ideal and being amenable to changes.

Don’t expect a dog-and-pony show announcing firings or who’s coming in for an interview. Belichick isn’t going to put anyone’s head on a spike for the pleasure of the masses. But my understanding is offensive coaching reassignments are going to happen and several offensive coaches are under consideration for the Patriots' 2023 staff.


One important facet of the meeting: Did Belichick need persuading to change course on offense or did he go in knowing changes were necessary? My understanding is that no persuading on the part of Kraft was necessary.
 

8slim

has trust issues
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Nov 6, 2001
26,060
Unreal America
Agree 100% on both BB and JB at the Cuse. It's been so infuriating to watch the program dissolve. Just unwilling to change as the game has changed. BB doesn't appear to be like that at all.
I probably should have known better, since Boeheim's long-standing intransigence was actually a big part of his success, while BB's calling card has been displaying almost unfathomable amounts of coaching dexterity. But if Bill makes changes that speaks volumes.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
35,735
Not sure why people would expect Bill to be resistant to change. Now, he's a loyal guy so he isn't going to scapegoat guys he likes, and maybe he shifts them around, but... very few teams in the entire league have had as much overall coaching turnover as the Patriots in Bill's tenure. He's had tons of guys leave for HC jobs and take a bunch of mid-level staff with them. Flores took a bunch of guys in 2019, he just reloaded, added Mayo, shifted some guys around, moved Judge to WR coach, etc. Before this year McDaniels left and took a bunch of guys, he shifted some senior guys, moved Douglas to WR, Rothstein to Offense.

Bill is very willing to change his coaching staff.... I would assume he'll shuffle guys around, add a few, etc.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Sep 21, 2007
47,881
Hartford, CT
Not sure why people would expect Bill to be resistant to change. Now, he's a loyal guy so he isn't going to scapegoat guys he likes, and maybe he shifts them around, but... very few teams in the entire league have had as much overall coaching turnover as the Patriots in Bill's tenure. He's had tons of guys leave for HC jobs and take a bunch of mid-level staff with them. Flores took a bunch of guys in 2019, he just reloaded, added Mayo, shifted some guys around, moved Judge to WR coach, etc. Before this year McDaniels left and took a bunch of guys, he shifted some senior guys, moved Douglas to WR, Rothstein to Offense.

Bill is very willing to change his coaching staff.... I would assume he'll shuffle guys around, add a few, etc.
Because they perceive him as giving the impression of an inflexible guy, and he’s 71 so there may be some ageism sprinkled into the dish. I also suspect the aggregate impact of the local and National media’s coverage of him - which, of course, has largely been one of massive respect but also laced with caricatures of him - has seeped into minds as well.

I mean, this is speculative, so if someone thinks Bill is set in his ways/won’t change they are free to explain.