Pats QB Options

Status
Not open for further replies.

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,023
Dallas
Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for Ridder.

I wasn't making an argument for taking a second round QB in this class, it was really just a comment about Kaepernick and the possibility that he might have enjoyed a better career in a different team/coaching situation. Everything I've read/heard from you and others suggests that nobody outside the top five QBs is worth looking at this year until at least the 3rd round and maybe even later.
My bad... I guess for me I wish there was a guy on day 2 who I would feel more comfortable banging the table for. Mills has a bad injury history and is inconsistent. Mills hasn’t had a statement game. A near flawless display of first round QB kind of talent. Mond has. Mond though has too many bad games. Mond has been slowing getting better but his accuracy is below average and he doesn't handle or sense pressure well at all. Arm strength is middling. Has issues reading defenses. Newman has the best tools but he is the biggest stretch to fit into an EP kind of system. Maddening. They all have a reason for taking them sometime late day 2 or early day 3 but none of them inspire much hope. Every time I start to feel more comfortable with one of them I immediately pull back when I look at some of the weaknesses.

I almost feel like it would be nice if they just accumulated capital for next year and made the push for a QB next year after another year of filling roster critical positions. I wouldn't hate it if they didn't draft a QB until day 3 or not at all especially if they got OT/CB/IDL early.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,023
Dallas
I've been trying to get SMU's take on Franks for the last week. He has the 2nd best TE measurable in the draft - closer to Kyle Pitts than the next guy is to him lol
You know who Franks reminds me of? Ryan Mallett. I went to review my notes on him compared to PFF and Bruglar.



40273



40274

I think they nailed it. He is Nuke. No touch. Doesn't go through progressions even when it isn't RPO. He doesn't throw his guys open. His ball placement is lacking. He is immobile. He is AWFUL under pressure.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
38,754
You know who Franks reminds me of? Ryan Mallett. I went to review my notes on him compared to PFF and Bruglar.



View attachment 40273



View attachment 40274

I think they nailed it. He is Nuke. No touch. Doesn't go through progressions even when it isn't RPO. He doesn't throw his guys open. His ball placement is lacking. He is immobile. He is AWFUL under pressure.
But if we draft him we can then trade him for Larry Fitzgerald.
 

JM3

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
531
You know who Franks reminds me of? Ryan Mallett. I went to review my notes on him compared to PFF and Bruglar.



View attachment 40273



View attachment 40274

I think they nailed it. He is Nuke. No touch. Doesn't go through progressions even when it isn't RPO. He doesn't throw his guys open. His ball placement is lacking. He is immobile. He is AWFUL under pressure.
I have a hard time comping a guy who runs a 4.55 to a guy who runs a 5.39. Also feel like Franks has more drive to be good then Mallet ever did.

But obviously he's a project QB with outs to be a TE or ST contributor.
 

ZMart100

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2008
2,237
If they didn't want to convert Tebow, I don't see why they would want to covert someone who can actually throw.
 

ZMart100

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2008
2,237
I mean they converted Jules, so it’s not unprecedented.
I don't think Edelman was expected to be drafted as a QB, so I don't see that as equivalent. BB said (after the Rams Super Bowl) that they didn't view Edelman as a QB in that draft. They worked him out at other positions too.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
20,892
I don't think Edelman was expected to be drafted as a QB, so I don't see that as equivalent. BB said (after the Rams Super Bowl) that they didn't view Edelman as a QB in that draft. They worked him out at other positions too.
Danny Etling is another QB who BB tried converting. He also moved Troy Brown to DB rather than signing someone when we had injuries back there. Cordorelle Patterson and Aaron Hernandez are a couple others BB moved to the backfield in certain formations.
 

ZMart100

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2008
2,237
Danny Etling is another QB who BB tried converting. He also moved Troy Brown to DB rather than signing someone when we had injuries back there. Cordorelle Patterson and Aaron Hernandez are a couple others BB moved to the backfield in certain formations.
Etling might be the best counter example. Etling had a bit of time to try to be a QB and as a last gasp to keep an NFL job he tried TE. BB certainly isn't afraid of moving people around- DTs can play FB, LBs can play TE etc. Playing QB is different, particularly when they have as far to go as Franks. Franks can't afford to spend time learning how to block or run routes.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,023
Dallas
Just for those who are curious: HT: @Mathbomb on twitter

I ran Feleipe Franks and his RAS at 3 different positions. It's his relative athletic score. It also has his testing.

As a QB
40275


As a tight end:
40276

As a WR:
40277


{/spoiler]
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,308
I don't think Edelman was expected to be drafted as a QB, so I don't see that as equivalent. BB said (after the Rams Super Bowl) that they didn't view Edelman as a QB in that draft. They worked him out at other positions too.
But isn’t that probably the case with Franks? Teams looking at him see a guy with great a size/inline speed package with large hands and a great wingspan. His physical traits are elite for a receiver. As a QB he isn’t very good at the college level, and mostly because of accuracy/ touch issues combined with bad reads. Why would anyone expect him to magically turn into a starting QB at the next level?
 

ZMart100

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2008
2,237
But isn’t that probably the case with Franks? Teams looking at him see a guy with great a size/inline speed package with large hands and a great wingspan. His physical traits are elite for a receiver. As a QB he isn’t very good at the college level, and mostly because of accuracy/ touch issues combined with bad reads. Why would anyone expect him to magically turn into a starting QB at the next level?
I don't think so. He has the tools to be an NFL QB. He has good arm strength and his mechanics are pretty sound. I think his accuracy issues, though real, are a bit overstated. I think there will be several teams willing to roll the dice that they can coach up the mental aspects of the game. He doesn't have to turn into a good starting QB immediately as a late round pick, he just needs to be good enough to justify a roster spot as a backup.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,308
His touch, accuracy, and reads are pretty bad. To be brutally frank I expect his NFL career to be about 3-4 years of bumping around NFL practice squads before moving on with his life. I just think he has a slightly higher chance of actually playing in games as a 3rd TE.
 

wilked

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
2,557
His touch, accuracy, and reads are pretty bad. To be brutally frank I expect his NFL career to be about 3-4 years of bumping around NFL practice squads before moving on with his life. I just think he has a slightly higher chance of actually playing in games as a 3rd TE.
The one thing Feleipe can’t stand is when people are brutally frank
 

JM3

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
531
I was surprised they even bothered trying to convert Etling. He was not that big & not that fast.

Franks just needs to gain muscle if he wants to try TE, but I don't think he's as lost of a cause as some of the QBs who are going to be drafted before him as a QB either.

Regardless, sorry I caused this convo to get way out of line in the "QB options" thread because he's really not one of those right now regardless.
 
Sep 1, 2019
121
I've come around to the view that this is the year for the Patriots to roll the dice and burn some assets. The one-in-a million Tom Brady lightning strike lottery winner is not going to happen again.

If we package Stephon Gilmore, #15, #46. and a future first, would that be enough to get Atlanta to deal #4?

If we do that and end up with Fields, I will be very happy. If we do that and end up with Lance, I will be happy but also very nervous.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,450
Richmond, VA
If they didn't want to convert Tebow, I don't see why they would want to covert someone who can actually throw.
I thought the issue with Tebow is that a. he didn't want to convert, and b. he wasn't smart.
Edelman seems pretty smart, so he had the desire to stay in the game, and had the intelligence and football knowledge to be able to convert to a really good receiver.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
12,355
I thought the issue with Tebow is that a. he didn't want to convert, and b. he wasn't smart.
Edelman seems pretty smart, so he had the desire to stay in the game, and had the intelligence and football knowledge to be able to convert to a really good receiver.
Or it was just obvious that Tebow would not be an NFL quality TE or WR.
 

leftfieldlegacy

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
767
North Jersey
My bad... I guess for me I wish there was a guy on day 2 who I would feel more comfortable banging the table for. Mills has a bad injury history and is inconsistent. Mills hasn’t had a statement game. A near flawless display of first round QB kind of talent. Mond has. Mond though has too many bad games. Mond has been slowing getting better but his accuracy is below average and he doesn't handle or sense pressure well at all. Arm strength is middling. Has issues reading defenses. Newman has the best tools but he is the biggest stretch to fit into an EP kind of system. Maddening. They all have a reason for taking them sometime late day 2 or early day 3 but none of them inspire much hope. Every time I start to feel more comfortable with one of them I immediately pull back when I look at some of the weaknesses.

I almost feel like it would be nice if they just accumulated capital for next year and made the push for a QB next year after another year of filling roster critical positions. I wouldn't hate it if they didn't draft a QB until day 3 or not at all especially if they got OT/CB/IDL early.
I've been on the Jamie Newman bandwagon forever. I see him as the anti Mac Jones in terms of opportunity. While Alabama has 5 star high school recruits at every postion Wake has none. Wake is lucky to get a 3 star recruit at any skill position. They have no receivers/OL/RB who have anywhere near the speed or skill sets of any of Alabama's players. As a result, Clawson has to run a basic offense that maximizes the abilities of these players. Personally, I think he does a great job with the cards he is dealt. He gets his team to a bowl game just about every year and he wins most of them. Not bad for the smallest P5 school with not much of a football history. I see Newman's "weaknesses" as being a direct result of the offensive system in which he played. If Newman played for Alabama last year, I think he would be in the conversation as a first round pick. I was very much looking forward to him playing at UGA because I think that would have provided him the opportunity to show that he could compete at the highest level. I even remember reading pre season internet headlines after he signed with UGA that he might be the best QB in the SEC in 2020 and a top contender for the Heisman. DawgNation
The Georgia football opening game with Virginia is more than seven months away, but talking season is well underway and Heisman talk has begun.
Incoming graduate-transfer quarterback Jamie Newman ranks among the Top 5 among Heisman favorites before throwing his first pass in a formal practice, currently at 14-to-1 per @SuperBookUSA.
Newman is ranked the No. 3 returning quarterback by Pro Football Focus, behind Ohio State’s Justin Fields and Clemson’s Trevor Lawrence.
The fact that he opted out is going to hurt him and but I don't think he will make it through round 3 before someone takes a chance on him.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
3,701
His touch, accuracy, and reads are pretty bad. To be brutally frank I expect his NFL career to be about 3-4 years of bumping around NFL practice squads before moving on with his life. I just think he has a slightly higher chance of actually playing in games as a 3rd TE.
Learning TE seems like an insurmountable task - learn blocking techniques and the schemes plus all the receiving skills?
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,308
Or it was just obvious that Tebow would not be an NFL quality TE or WR.
In the run up to his draft several teams sounded him out on moving to TE, but he wanted to play QB. By the time he busted out as a QB it was a little late to make the change.

Learning TE seems like an insurmountable task - learn blocking techniques and the schemes plus all the receiving skills?
If you’re saying that Franks is unlikely to do anything outside scuffle around practice squads for a few years then we’re in agreement. I don’t think learning to run routes (the job of TE3s) is insurmountable. And QBs do tend to have good hands, which is why NFL teams have moved the athletic ones that don’t have a future at QB to receiving positions.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
3,701
In the run up to his draft several teams sounded him out on moving to TE, but he wanted to play QB. By the time he busted out as a QB it was a little late to make the change.



If you’re saying that Franks is unlikely to do anything outside scuffle around practice squads for a few years then we’re in agreement. I don’t think learning to run routes (the job of TE3s) is insurmountable. And QBs do tend to have good hands, which is why NFL teams have moved the athletic ones that don’t have a future at QB to receiving positions.
I’m picturing the first practice session when he has to block Hightower 1v1 in space....
 

JM3

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
531
Bill Simmons wants to draft Waddle & trade for Minshew.

No idea what the Jags want for Minshew - he's their only real backup for Lawrence unless you're a big Jake Luton guy (e.g. if you are related to Jake Luton). Maybe a 4th?
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,308
Bill Simmons wants to draft Waddle & trade for Minshew.

No idea what the Jags want for Minshew - he's their only real backup for Lawrence unless you're a big Jake Luton guy (e.g. if you are related to Jake Luton).
Even his mother prefers Minshew.
 

heavyde050

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,805
San Francisco
Bill Simmons wants to draft Waddle & trade for Minshew.

No idea what the Jags want for Minshew - he's their only real backup for Lawrence unless you're a big Jake Luton guy (e.g. if you are related to Jake Luton). Maybe a 4th?
I am pretty sure that C.J. Beathard also signed with Jacksonville during FA, not that it would change much.
 

JM3

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
531
I am pretty sure that C.J. Beathard also signed with Jacksonville during FA, not that it would change much.
Ah, good call. I feel lied to by the internet. Beathard is a perfectly acceptable backup.

It's a 2/$5m/$2.75m so Beathard is almost assured of being on opening day roster, so yeah, they'll almost certainly take highest bid on Minshew.

Idk if I'm that excited about Minshew, but the salary cap hit is low... we'd owe him $850k this year & $965k next year.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
11,944
Santa Monica, CA
Ah, good call. I feel lied to by the internet. Beathard is a perfectly acceptable backup.

It's a 2/$5m/$2.75m so Beathard is almost assured of being on opening day roster, so yeah, they'll almost certainly take highest bid on Minshew.

Idk if I'm that excited about Minshew, but the salary cap hit is low... we'd owe him $850k this year & $965k next year.
I still think Jimmy gets released and becomes an option soon, but Minshew would be a better bridge option than Newton, in that he can complete forward passes. He would be a huge improvement in our passing game over last year, at a low cost.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,023
Dallas
Seems like Mac Jones and the Bosa family will get along:

40294

It is from 2012 but there is always a tweet. Of course these are the kinds of things that surface right before the draft too.

Edit: his sister posted it. It is not clear if it is Mac in the picture or not.
 

TSC

SoSH's Doug Neidermeyer
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2007
10,433
Between here and everywhere.
Seems like Mac Jones and the Bosa family will get along:

View attachment 40294

It is from 2012 but there is always a tweet. Of course these are the kinds of things that surface right before the draft too.

Edit: his sister posted it. It is not clear if it is Mac in the picture or not.
So it’s from almost 9 years ago, meaning he was what -12, 13? when this was taken?

Even if it is him in it - I’m not holding a 12 year old accountable for something like this.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
20,365
If you’re saying that Franks is unlikely to do anything outside scuffle around practice squads for a few years then we’re in agreement. I don’t think learning to run routes (the job of TE3s) is insurmountable. And QBs do tend to have good hands, which is why NFL teams have moved the athletic ones that don’t have a future at QB to receiving positions.
Maybe its just coincidence or the non-factor of WRs in the wishbone, but in the 70s there was a run of successful college QB's that ended up at DB, not WR -- Jack Mildren, Rex Kern, Dungy, and Nolan Cromwell.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,023
Dallas
Josh Allen's n word tweets came out around now. The next two weeks are when a ton of the weird, strange, controversial stuff comes out. Like pictures of people in cannabis-gas-masks. In Mac Jones case I don't think this makes a difference. If anything the DUI on his record is the one coaches will be more concerned about but apparently he's completely turned around from that point in his life in regards to maturity and decision making.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,450
Richmond, VA
Right. Judging how smart guys are by what you see on TV is kind of a waste of time.
I'll retract the phrase "not smart", because of the pejorative nature of it.
But, I wasn't really basing that comment on his public persona.
There was some chatter around the league that he was not mentally processing the game very well. There is some discussion of him having dyslexia, which may have affected his ability to absorb playbook information and also to read defenses. So, the guy might be really smart in certain contexts and not others. I'm no expert on that, but here's an example I found about his ability to process the game...his "football smarts" if you will.

https://nesn.com/2013/05/report-tim-tebow-struggled-badly-with-mental-parts-of-playing-football-has-nfl-thinking-he-cant-pick-up-game/

“More troubling for potential employers is that Tebow struggled badly with the mental side of the game, according to a league source,” Fleming writes.
...
“That doesn’t mean Tebow isn’t smart or that he couldn’t develop into a brilliant, quick-thinking quarterback. It just hasn’t happened yet.”
...
“And of all the deadly sins Tebow committed against quarterbacking, this was the worst: lacking the self-awareness to recognize and fix these shortcomings,” Fleming writes.
I don't know enough about Fleming, so apologies in advance if he's an unreliable narrator.

Anyway, a tangent, I know.
 
Jun 9, 2011
56
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t46hOHr--zQ


This guy is an OSU insider, he has a pretty solid track record. Being an OSU fan I was hoping JF would wind up with the Pats but Niners always made the most sense. Really hoping the Pats don't wind up with Jones, I don't think he is a particularly special prospect. I'd consider moving up to take Lance if he slips into the 10 range, I think he's too much of an unknown for what it would cost to move up to 4.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,308
If Fields goes #3 that potentially takes New England out of the QB market this year. That puts a lot of pressure on Denver to move up to #4 if they want Lance to be their QB of the future. Which would leave New England trading multiple firsts for Mac Jones, which might just be too rich for their blood. Minshew then? It's going to be a retread of some sort.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
21,524
If Fields goes #3 that potentially takes New England out of the QB market this year. That puts a lot of pressure on Denver to move up to #4 if they want Lance to be their QB of the future. Which would leave New England trading multiple firsts for Mac Jones, which might just be too rich for their blood. Minshew then? It's going to be a retread of some sort.
I expect that if it's not a rookie it's Cam (barring something like Jimmy G getting released, then it would be a competition, and either half Cam, Half Jimmy G, or all Cam).
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,308
I'm not sure that Cam's a long term answer. It will be disappointing if all four QBs are gone by #4 leaving New England hoping that Mac Jones slides into the teens. Jamie Newman doesn't do a lot for me as a long term answer at the QB spot. But I like his chances more than Mond's.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
12,816
I'm not sure that Cam's a long term answer. It will be disappointing if all four QBs are gone by #4 leaving New England hoping that Mac Jones slides into the teens. Jamie Newman doesn't do a lot for me as a long term answer at the QB spot. But I like his chances more than Mond's.
If the QBs are gone before NE can pick, at least we can be pretty sure that NE will have another great player available at #15, even if it's not at the position we'd prefer. I don't think BB will swing and miss with that pick in that situation.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,450
Richmond, VA
I'm not sure that Cam's a long term answer. It will be disappointing if all four QBs are gone by #4 leaving New England hoping that Mac Jones slides into the teens. Jamie Newman doesn't do a lot for me as a long term answer at the QB spot. But I like his chances more than Mond's.
Do you mean ‘long term’ as in a full season? Or 2-3 years?
next off season is another chance to trade up for, trade for, or sign a QB. Especially if he were to trade down this year, he might be able to use
draft capital to trade for someone next offseason.
He might prefer to trade for someone he knows more about (because of their time in the league) than the Crapshoot of drafting the 4th or 5th best QB in this years draft.
Edit: Trading down this year might get him the pieces to trade for next years Wentz or what have you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.