Pats Sign Cannon to Two Year Extension...

jacklamabe65 · Dec 11, 2014

BB is trying to show the Sox that he signs his potential free agents. :q:

tims4wins · Dec 11, 2014

Solid depth. I'm fine with it. Assume it is small $.

Super Nomario · Dec 11, 2014

Solid depth move. I'm surprised Cannon didn't look for an opportunity to get starter playing time elsewhere. I had identified OT as an area the Pats might target in the draft, but with Solder, Vollmer, Cannon, and Fleming all under contract for 2015, they can wait there.

Stitch01 · Dec 11, 2014

Possible they do move on from Solder?

Super Nomario · Dec 11, 2014

Ed Hillel said:
Are you confident in saying Solder won't get cut at that salary? I think they may either ditch him/try to get him to sign for less, or draft a Tackle early, depending on what they think of Fleming.

$7.5 MM (OTC's 2015 salary for Solder) isn't a lot for tackle - hell, they're paying Connolly $4 MM to play guard. I expect they'll try to work out an extension with Solder. I don't think they have another real LT in house - Vollmer hasn't played there in years and Fleming was a RT even in college. Cannon's nominally the backup LT this year, but I'm dubious he's more than a stopgap option on the left. They could draft someone, but I don't see them getting a guy at 32 (or whatever) that's going to be plug-and-play day one on Brady's blind side.

axx · Dec 11, 2014

ESPN says it's $9M total. Not too bad. Doesn't say the guaranteed money but I'll guess half.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12017441/new-england-patriots-sign-marcus-cannon-two-year-contract-extension

tims4wins · Dec 11, 2014

I disagree. $9M is close to starter money. I really dislike the signing at that price.

Edit: especially with the Revis situation and DMC as a FA. Those dollars could be much better spent IMO

Phragle · Dec 11, 2014

Haha what the fuck? For once I feel like Shelterdog, because there's no way we know the whole story here. I thought he was progressing well since being drafted, but this year he's done nothing to prove he's anything more than a minimum salary/500-600k type of player. I have no idea what's going on. When is the Hooman extension coming, and will he accept 3 and 30 with 12 guaranteed?

Stitch01 said:
Possible they do move on from Solder?

Very possible. I'd say it's likely, if you're talking about after the year like I think you are.

soxfan121 · Dec 11, 2014

tims4wins said:
I disagree. $9M is close to starter money. I really dislike the signing at that price.

Edit: especially with the Revis situation and DMC as a FA. Those dollars could be much better spent IMO

Two years. We'll have to wait on the details (from Miguel) but (guessing) that's probably $3M guaranteed, $2M roster bonus in 2016, and $2M salary each season, which is not even close to "starter" money for a LT.

It allows them to focus on replacing both Connolly and (if possible) Wendell long term through the draft.

How does anyone dislike a football signing without seeing the numbers? If he's being paid $7M guaranteed of that $9M, I like it a lot less.

Stitch01 · Dec 11, 2014

Yeah I am, move makes some sense if they are comfortable with Vollmer/Cannon, somewhat less sense given the extensions needed this offseason if he's the third tackle. He doesn't add much versatility as a guard or 6th lineman, as we have seen.

tims4wins · Dec 11, 2014

SF121 I get your point but Cannon has proven he can't play G so he can't really replace Wendell or Connolly. And yeah $9M over two years obviously isn't starter money but as phragle said why should Cannon be making any more than the minimum? Even if it is only $2M guaranteed I don't love it.

Super Nomario · Dec 11, 2014

Volin's report $3.2 MM per Twitter. I don't think the contract (based on what we know so far) is ridiculous in a vacuum but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me given Cannon's current role.

lexrageorge · Dec 11, 2014

Super Nomario said:
$7.5 MM (OTC's 2015 salary for Solder) isn't a lot for tackle - hell, they're paying Connolly $4 MM to play guard. I expect they'll try to work out an extension with Solder. I don't think they have another real LT in house - Vollmer hasn't played there in years and Fleming was a RT even in college. Cannon's nominally the backup LT this year, but I'm dubious he's more than a stopgap option on the left. They could draft someone, but I don't see them getting a guy at 32 (or whatever) that's going to be plug-and-play day one on Brady's blind side.

Matt Light (#48) says hi. As an aside, he and Seymour will remain 2 of my favorite Pats draft choices of all time, just because it allows us to bring out the Borges article from time to time.

Belichick values continuity on the line. They likely will have to replace Connolly after this season, and Solder will likely be in "restructure or cut" situation in 2015. The $9M is over 2 seasons, and finding a tackle in free agency can be inordinately expensive and risky. Don't forget that Vollmer has had injury issues in the past, and Solder does have a concussion history.

soxfan121 · Dec 11, 2014

EDIT: lexrageorge said it WAY better than I could. Nice post.

amarshal2 · Dec 11, 2014

Total head scratcher but at this point I'm pretty much a "in BB I trust" guy. But yeah, I don't get it at all.

Phragle · Dec 11, 2014

tims4wins said:
SF121 I get your point but Cannon has proven he can't play G so he can't really replace Wendell or Connolly. And yeah $9M over two years obviously isn't starter money but as phragle said why should Cannon be making any more than the minimum? Even if it is only $2M guaranteed I don't love it.

If it's a low guarantee like 2 million, that would be spread out over the two years, and they can structure the salary however they want. So depending on how it's structured the deal could be more like 1 year and ~ 3 million with a option for 2016.

lexrageorge said:
Matt Light (#48) says hi.

I think we'd all take another Matt Light but it's unlikely we get one without a high(ish) first round pick, which is what SN was saying.

------

Volin has a decent theory

https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/543220623431204864

JerBear · Dec 11, 2014

Ed Hillel said:
Keep in mind he's playing out of position. At Tackle, he's shown to be worth this kind of contract.

Not this year. He's looked mediocre when playing at tackle and terrible when playing the 6th OL spot.

Solder has had a couple bad games but he was great from week 4-13. We only notice him when he's getting abused, which he was against SD.

Super Nomario · Dec 11, 2014

Phragle said:
If it's a low guarantee like 2 million, that would be spread out over the two years, and they can structure the salary however they want. So depending on how it's structured the deal could be more like 1 year and ~ 3 million with a option for 2016.

$3.2 MM bonus per Volin. I'd think it's unlikely there's any more guaranteed money.

Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin 1h1 hour ago
I'm told Cannon's deal is actually worth a maximum of $9 million over two years, with a $3.2 million signing bonus. Nice get for him

The "maximum" could be important - so it's probably $9 MM if he ends up being a full-time starter, and something less (possibly much less) if he's not. That makes a lot more sense.

Phragle said:
I think we'd all take another Matt Light but it's unlikely we get one without a high(ish) first round pick, which is what SN was saying.

That is what I'm saying - and even the high firsts haven't been plug-and-play at LT. Robinson and Lewan didn't start to begin this year, Matthews is PFF's worst-rated tackle (and they planned to put him at RT before Baker got hurt), and last year Fisher, Joeckel, and Johnson all started on the right side.

Phragle said:
Volin has a decent theory

https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/543220623431204864

That makes sense. Wendell's no lock to be back next year, either.

Shelterdog · Dec 11, 2014

This suggests to me they are counting on either Flemming or Cannon to play mostly guard next year because you really don't need three RTs.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Dec 11, 2014

Shelterdog said:
This suggests to me they are counting on either Flemming or Cannon to play mostly guard next year because you really don't need three RTs.

It will NOT be Flemming.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Dec 11, 2014

Some of you guys are missing that Solder's 2015 money is fully guaranteed. They can try to restructure/extend him but they won't cut him.

I find the Cannon contract kind of baffling.

Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt · Dec 11, 2014

I'm shocked by this. Fully co-sign on the In BB We Trust thing, but this is maybe THE transaction that'll really test that theory. Cannon has been scheme diverse when it comes to unproductive play this season. He's been really, truly and consistently bad. But, well, Belichick, so.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Dec 12, 2014

Ed Hillel said:
Solder's salary is only fully guaranteed starting at the beginning of the 2015 league year. If he's cut before then, they save about 7 million.

http://patscap.com/2015patscap.html

Oops, you're correct. It's only guaranteed previously for injury.

Knowing this, there's really very little downside in triggering those options.

tims4wins · Dec 12, 2014

Not being tied to Solder next year has me re-thinking my opinion a bit. If they decide to let him walk, and move Vollmer to LT with Cannon at RT, I think I could live with that, especially if they can find a way to pay Revis.

Also, the quotes that Reiss posted from Dante (albeit from a year ago) are encouraging:

Scarnecchia's take on Cannon. Former Patriots offensive line coach Dante Scarnecchia loved Cannon. In June of 2013, Scarnecchia explained to me the team's approach of working Cannon at guard in offseason camps and said, "Love his physicality. Love his passion for the game. He’s a smart kid, a great kid to coach, he’s driven to be very good. I think he’s a really good tackle. [What we’re doing in OTAs with him at guard] is trying to get this guy to make himself as valuable a player as we can, and valuable for us. We have five starters and if we lose a guy we have to have a guy that is capable of getting in there and doing a great job. So we want to train him at guard, and we’re going to give him more tackle work as we go forward in this minicamp. I like what he’s doing. I like how he’s doing it. Every day is a growth day for him. He’s a special kid. He’s a starting quality player. I love the kid. I think he’s a good player.”

mjohnson406 · Dec 12, 2014

I'm perplexed by this but I've drank enough of the Kool-aid to just shrug my shoulders and move on. I was equally confused by the Wendell deal and he's been a key to the O-lines recent success.

In the end, anything that doesn't decrease the possibility of extensions for Revis and DMC is fine by me.

Shelterdog · Dec 12, 2014

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
It will NOT be Flemming.

You could well be right. They started him against KC, he got smoked, and he got hurt, but I'm not a good enough talent scout to judge the guy on one game as a rookie playing guard for about the first time ever (he might have played guard in high school, I just don't know).

ShaneTrot · Dec 12, 2014

I find this deal perplexing for both sides. Cannon was very good at RT when Vollmer went down last year. I believe he did not yield a sack. Would he not get more money on the open market as a league average right tackle? There are a lot of lousy offensive lines out there.

As for the Pats, isn't Fleming the backup tackle insurance going forward at a much cheaper rate than Cannon? I will believe Cannon can cut it at guard when I see it.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Dec 12, 2014

Shelterdog said:
You could well be right. They started him against KC, he got smoked, and he got hurt, but I'm not a good enough talent scout to judge the guy on one game as a rookie playing guard for about the first time ever (he might have played guard in high school, I just don't know).

It's not just the one game.

I've been paying close attention to Fleming, despite his limited snaps as an extra tackle/inline TE. From week 1, the kid was a mauler in run blocking. I'm very curious to see what kind of pass protection he can provide, because I was intrigued with certain run blocking aspect of his game.

Right now, his strength is...well, his strength. He's a big fucking guy (6'6, 325lb). When he can simply line up across from a guy and put a helmet on him, he does a good job of pushing people around. As a tackle, the majority of his blocking assignments would be on the DE across from him, so it works well for him.

The weaknesses I've seen is that he has some trouble on first step, and he's kind of slow (which shouldn't be a surprise with his size). Being able to get up field is an issue for him, and that is a pretty big issue in the run game for interior linemen. Because interior linemen need to quickly diagnose blitzes and help blocking assignments on pass protection, quick lateral movement are important and it's something he doesn't seem to be great at.

I don't think he will ever be able to be successful at guard, but I do think with some focus on footwork and play recognition, he can be successful at tackle.

Shelterdog · Dec 12, 2014

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
It's not just the one game.

I've been paying close attention to Fleming, despite his limited snaps as an extra tackle/inline TE. From week 1, the kid was a mauler in run blocking. I'm very curious to see what kind of pass protection he can provide, because I was intrigued with certain run blocking aspect of his game.

Right now, his strength is...well, his strength. He's a big fucking guy (6'6, 325lb). When he can simply line up across from a guy and put a helmet on him, he does a good job of pushing people around. As a tackle, the majority of his blocking assignments would be on the DE across from him, so it works well for him.

The weaknesses I've seen is that he has some trouble on first step, and he's kind of slow (which shouldn't be a surprise with his size). Being able to get up field is an issue for him, and that is a pretty big issue in the run game for interior linemen. Because interior linemen need to quickly diagnose blitzes and help blocking assignments on pass protection, quick lateral movement are important and it's something he doesn't seem to be great at.

I don't think he will ever be able to be successful at guard, but I do think with some focus on footwork and play recognition, he can be successful at tackle.

I agree with what you wrote-the guy screams RT, and absolutely doesn't have the physical skillset Pats guards normally do-but then they did opt to start him pretty early in his career which leads me to believe that I'm missing something, not that the Pats are missing something.

Anyhow, I'm struggling because Cannon seems to solve a problem they don't have. I figured that the line in 2015-2016 was Solder-?-Stork-?-Vollmer, with Fleming as the primary backup tackle, Wendell as an extra guy on the inside, and then you have to draft, develop or sign some help at guard. The biggest issue is guard (Connolly is old and a free agent, Wendell isn't ideal as a starting guard, Devey/Klein haven't shown much yet, Fleming and now Cannon don't look like great options). So unless you've decided to play hardball with Solder it seems like you're paying a third or fourth string tackle with limited position flexibility starter money when you're weak at two guard sports going forward.

dynomite · Dec 12, 2014

Solder has a concussion history and Vollmer has had a number of injuries, so I wouldn't discount the value of having what the Patriots consider a starter-level backup in the event of injury.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Dec 12, 2014

dynomite said:
Solder has a concussion history and Vollmer has had a number of injuries, so I wouldn't discount the value of having what the Patriots consider a starter-level backup in the event of injury.

I think this might be it. For better or for worse, the team has shown in the past that's its willing to pay a bit of a premium to mid-career veterans to ensure decent depth and a known performance level (see Arrington, Kyle; Wendell, Ryan).

The other factor here might be that the owners meeting just concluded in which they offered the first approximation of the 2015 cap, which they are officially estimating as between $138.6M and $141.8M. But last year the official estimates from this meeting came in like $6-7M short of the real cap, and the NFLPA has already said they expect the cap to be substantially higher based on their revenue projections. So maybe Kraft knows that the cap is going to settle somewhere in the $145-150M range, so they'll have a little more flexibility, and they're just taking the opportunity to lock Cannon up at reasonable dollars.

Before considering the Cannon contract, with a $145M cap, even with eating Revis's $25M cap hit, the Patriots would have only about $7M in cap space but could very easily clear another $12M by cutting Wilfork and Mayo. With a Revis restructure that brings his cap number down to the $18M range, you're talking $14M in space and $26M after Wilfork/Mayo cuts. So its not that hard to imagine them keeping Solder, resigning McCourty long-term, and still having plenty of room to offer competitive deals to guys like Ghost/Vereen/Chung/Ayers or analogous replacements. I don't think the Wilfork/Mayo cuts are locks - they could be restructured as well - but they offer a lot of flexibility and I wouldn't expect either to be on the team next year at their current cap numbers.

Shelterdog · Dec 12, 2014

dynomite said:
Solder has a concussion history and Vollmer has had a number of injuries, so I wouldn't discount the value of having what the Patriots consider a starter-level backup in the event of injury.

True. The cap is also going up a fair amount (somewhere between 5 and 20 million). It's also really tough to get a pretty good tackle: Solder is struggling but my impression that he's doing a lot better than recent high picks like Fisher, Joekel, Kalil, and Greg Robinson (and I've heard Matthews in Atlanta but haven't seen him play).

Tony C · Dec 12, 2014

dynomite said:
Solder has a concussion history and Vollmer has had a number of injuries, so I wouldn't discount the value of having what the Patriots consider a starter-level backup in the event of injury.

as simple as this, and per the interesting discussion of Flemming above, CF as the developmental guy behind them.

Super Nomario · Dec 13, 2014

Field Yates has the details. Salary $1.2 MM next year, $3.4 MM in 2016. $600K in roster / weight / playing time bonuses / incentives each season.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Dec 13, 2014

Super Nomario said:
Field Yates has the details. Salary $1.2 MM next year, $3.4 MM in 2016. $600K in roster / weight / playing time bonuses / incentives each season.

Not bad. The hit next year will be around 2.5-2.7. If he's not a projected starter going into 2016, they can cut him for a 1M hit. If he is, they can keep him at roughly 5M or restructure.

Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt · Dec 29, 2014

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/29/marcus-cannon-channels-marshawn-lynch-sort-of/

Don't you have to play (WAY) better to pull this crap?

mwonow · Dec 29, 2014

Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/29/marcus-cannon-channels-marshawn-lynch-sort-of/

Don't you have to play (WAY) better to pull this crap?

He probably just didn't want to let people know he had no answers. He certainly didn't have any on the field, while he imitated a pylon at LT

Red Right Ankle · Dec 29, 2014

No, not a pylon. There was that one play I saw him move! You know, the one where he ran over his own running back?

mwonow · Dec 29, 2014

TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle said:
No, not a pylon. There was that one play I saw him move! You know, the one where he ran over his own running back?

I must have winced through that one...

McBride11 · Dec 29, 2014

Hey cmon guys. Lets tone it down some. Pylons at least have some use on the field, treat them with a little respect.

MentalDisabldLst · Dec 29, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a209lYNetOc

Let's hope he helps the OL earn a reboot of that.

Pats Sign Cannon to Two Year Extension...

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