Pedroia having season ending surgery

threecy · Sep 9, 2014

He injured his left wrist during the the home opener on April 4. He was sent back to Boston a week later for tests.

E5 Yaz · Sep 9, 2014

The key here, I suppose, would be to keep him out of season openers.

TomRicardo · Sep 9, 2014

So are we going to see Mookie Betts at 2B or do we get the unique pleasure of Weeks at 2B?

HillysLastWalk · Sep 9, 2014

OK. The speculation has been confirmed. Looking forward to an ISO/SLG increase next year.

absintheofmalaise · Sep 9, 2014

TomRicardo said:
So are we going to see Mookie Betts at 2B or do we get the unique pleasure of Weeks at 2B?

According to Farrell, they view Betts as an OF. Weeks or Holt it looks like.

Harry Hooper · Sep 9, 2014

HillysLastWalk said:
OK. The speculation has been confirmed. Looking forward to an ISO/SLG increase next year.

Why? He's going to keep doing headfirst slides and throwing his body around out there.

pokey_reese · Sep 9, 2014

This could also be involved in getting Castillo into the games once the IL playoffs end. Betts to 2B, Rusney to CF.

ji oh · Sep 9, 2014

So serious power-sapping hand or wrist injuries in the opener or home opener two years in a row?

seantoo · Sep 9, 2014

Harry Hooper said:
Why? He's going to keep doing headfirst slides and throwing his body around out there.

A small man who plays balls out who has not had a wrist/hand injury free year for several years and is on the wrong side of 30, logically speaking why does anyone expect anything much different then what we've seen the past few seasons if anything logic dictates there is good reason to expect it to go in the opposite direction sooner than later.

geoduck no quahog · Sep 10, 2014

seantoo said:
A small man who plays balls out who has not had a wrist/hand injury free year for several years and is on the wrong side of 30, logically speaking why does anyone expect anything much different then what we've seen the past few seasons if anything logic dictates there is good reason to expect it to go in the opposite direction sooner than later.

1. What does "small man" have to do with anything?
2. Why does 2 years of unusual injuries early in the season seem predictive?
3. How many 2B were washed up after 30 due to their inability to age well? Let's take a look at the swan-song ages of each all-star since, say 1963 (I just like putting together these lists...Julian Javier?):

Julian Javier: 35
Nellie Fox: 36
Bobby Richardson: 30
Ron Hunt: 33
Pete Rose: 44
Felix Mantilla: 31
Bobby Knoop: 32
Jeff LeFabvre: 30
Bill Mazeroski: 34
Rod Carew: 39
Tommy Helms: 33
Felix Millan: 33
Davey Johnson: 31
Glenn Beckert: 32
Joe Morgan: 40
Bobby Grich: 37
Willie Randolph: 37
Freddie Patek: 35
Davey Lopes: 41
Frank White: 39
Manny Trillo: 37
Steve Sax: 32
Lou Whitaker: 38
Ryne Sandburg: 37
Tom Herr: 35
Paul Molitor: 41
Julio Franco: 48
Roberto Alomar: 36
Mariano Duncan: 34
Craig Biggio: 41
Carlos Baerga: 36
Jay Bell: 37
Jeff Kent: 40
Bret Boone: 36
Alfonso Soriano: 37
Jose Vidro: 33
Brian Roberts: 36
Mark Loretta: 37
Chase Utley: 35+
Placido Polanco: 37
Dustin Pedroia:

"Logic" dictates there should be no expectation that Pedroia will fare any better or worse than his predecessors (excluding the amazing Mr. Franco of course).

seantoo · Sep 10, 2014

geoduck no quahog said:
1. What does "small man" have to do with anything?
2. Why does 2 years of unusual injuries early in the season seem predictive?
3. How many 2B were washed up after 30 due to their inability to age well? Let's take a look at the swan-song ages of each all-star since, say 1963 (I just like putting together these lists...Julian Javier?):

Julian Javier: 35
Nellie Fox: 36
Bobby Richardson: 30
Ron Hunt: 33
Pete Rose: 44
Felix Mantilla: 31
Bobby Knoop: 32
Jeff LeFabvre: 30
Bill Mazeroski: 34
Rod Carew: 39
Tommy Helms: 33
Felix Millan: 33
Davey Johnson: 31
Glenn Beckert: 32
Joe Morgan: 40
Bobby Grich: 37
Willie Randolph: 37
Freddie Patek: 35
Davey Lopes: 41
Frank White: 39
Manny Trillo: 37
Steve Sax: 32
Lou Whitaker: 38
Ryne Sandburg: 37
Tom Herr: 35
Paul Molitor: 41
Julio Franco: 48
Roberto Alomar: 36
Mariano Duncan: 34
Craig Biggio: 41
Carlos Baerga: 36
Jay Bell: 37
Jeff Kent: 40
Bret Boone: 36
Alfonso Soriano: 37
Jose Vidro: 33
Brian Roberts: 36
Mark Loretta: 37
Chase Utley: 35+
Placido Polanco: 37
Dustin Pedroia:

"Logic" dictates there should be no expectation that Pedroia will fare any better or worse than his predecessors (excluding the amazing Mr. Franco of course).

Try three years of injuries to wrist/hands and how do you define "swan song", what exactly is your criteria. Whatever that criteria may be ask yourself this, is that the new standard we want to hold to? That appears like alot of work for nothing, but surprise me with your unbiased response.

HomeRunBaker · Sep 10, 2014

HillysLastWalk said:
OK. The speculation has been confirmed. Looking forward to an ISO/SLG increase next year.

Recurring wrist injuries lead to more power?

mt8thsw9th · Sep 10, 2014

So I wasn't able to copy pasta Pedroia's SLG chart image from Fangraphs, but I was able to Woofify it. Not an encouraging trend.

joe dokes · Sep 10, 2014

Just a slight interruption to express an appreciation for a list including Felix Millan, 2bman of my Met-fan youth. Regularly cranked out 160-180 hits per year with neither power nor speed nor walks nor strikeouts; choked up on the bat almost to the label; hated to slide; career ended when he was dropped on his head by Pirate Ed Ott after a double play takeout caused Millan to take a swing at Ott with the baseball still in his hand.

As you were.

geoduck no quahog · Sep 10, 2014

I stand by a challenge to the statement that "logic dictates there is good reason to expect it to go in the opposite direction sooner than later". Maybe "gut feel" is a better term than logic. I only picked all stars to demonstrate a point, that there's variation all over the place. Citing OPS for a 2nd baseman is a little deceptive because we're looking for people who degenerate rapidly after 30 - and 2B aren't notorious for being sluggers. Also, moving from 2B to another position shouldn't be a killer, as that could also happen to anyone, including Pedroia.

I was actually surprised at how old this somewhat arbitrary group of players were. I'd have though the average age would have been much lower.

Given that, it's doesn't take a great leap of faith to speculate that any sports player is going to get worse as he ages rather than better.

In any case, I appreciate both of you delving deeper into the stats, because that's more instructive than me just listing guys and how old they were when they last played at least half a season.

It's interesting generally how much older the latter group of All-Stars were when they retired than the earlier group. Players seem to take better care of themselves these days.

{edit: so here's the short-list of all-star 2B that made it to 36, regardless of final position or OPS:

Nellie Fox: 36
Pete Rose: 44
Rod Carew: 39
Joe Morgan: 40
Bobby Grich: 37
Willie Randolph: 37
Davey Lopes: 41
Frank White: 39
Manny Trillo: 37
Lou Whitaker: 38
Ryne Sandburg: 37
Paul Molitor: 41
Julio Franco: 48
Roberto Alomar: 36
Craig Biggio: 41
Carlos Baerga: 36
Jay Bell: 37
Jeff Kent: 40
Bret Boone: 36
Alfonso Soriano: 37
Brian Roberts: 36 (bad example)
Mark Loretta: 37
Chase Utley: 35+
Placido Polanco: 37

Tomorrow I'm going to list all all-star 2B who are shorter than 5' 8" that played until they were 40.

HillysLastWalk · Sep 10, 2014

HomeRunBaker said:
Recurring wrist injuries lead to more power?

If they are predictive, or they are really going to happen early and often (every year). Yes, I'm dead wrong.

I'm hoping they shut him down, clean him up, he actually gets to work out this year, and he gets a healthier (then what we've seen the past two/three years) season. If that happens ... SLG goes up.

Trying to stay positive!

Reggie's Racquet · Sep 10, 2014

I for one want to point out how fortune we are to have this guy playing for our team.
He plays hard every day and through injuries, he doesn't complain and he is a leader.
I wouldn't trade him anywhere.
They should make him the captain.
He should play here for the rest of his career.

absintheofmalaise · Sep 10, 2014

Gammons with a love letter to Pedroia today.

He doesn’t have to be what he was when he won the 2008 MVP, but the Red Sox need his energy, his leadership, his maniacal work habits. They need him showing up at noon, taking a break around 1:30 to be with his children on the field, then lead the Brian Butterfield defensive drills, especially working with young players and newcomers. He is so admired by teammates and opposing players—like Adam Jones and Mike Trout—that Buck Showalter often says, “before I retire and go manage Hyannis in The Cape League, I’d like to manage Dustin Pedroia for three games. That would an honor, and as much fun as it gets.”
Come February, Pedroia will be back in Fort Myers, working out every day, chirping, involving Deven Marrero, Garin Cecchini and all the young players in his boisterous banter; when Jose Iglesias was a rookie and got confused on relay drills, Pedroia showed him where he should be, then tapped Iglesias on his chest and hollered—“Hey, you’re not in Cuba, you’re in Fort Myers, and in Fort Myers I am Fidel Castro.”`

robssecondjob · Sep 10, 2014

Season ending surgery.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/09/10/dustin-pedroia-will-have-hand-surgery-thursday/ybFsIw143PaDes4Vu7cIaI/story.html

Harry Hooper · Sep 10, 2014

Farrell, start having him sit a game after every headfirst slide, and Dustin will stop doing it real quick.

BornToRun · Sep 10, 2014

Harry Hooper said:
Farrell, start having him sit a game after every headfirst slide, and Dustin will stop doing it real quick.

I was thinking this too. I doubt a fine would work with Pedey but forcing him to glue his ass to the bench every time he goes head first is probably the best chance at getting him to knock it off.

plnii · Sep 10, 2014

Any mention of what type of wrist injury?

Sampo Gida · Sep 11, 2014

I think we all know Pedey was not healthy most of the season, as he was not healthy most of last season (thumb), and at the end of the season before (thumb), and at the start of 2011 (knee) and the 2nd half of 2010 (ankle).

What it adds up to is an oft-injured player in recent years, as a result of his all out play (except the broken foot) and scaling the age curve, coupled with an insistence to play through the injury, which he has done for the most part except in 2010 when his desire to get back to the field as early as possible might very well have stopped the healing process and resulted in the season ending surgery.

When I think of Pedey, my mentors endless chant of work smarter not harder comes to mind. North of 30 its best to tone down ones play. Stay on your feet as much as possible and slide feet first and not head first. Its good to be on the field, but only if you are healthy enough to be close to your best, and sadly thats not been the case the last 2+ years (although he is still a pretty good player hurt).

I think Pedey figure it out. If not the next 7 years will not be as much fun as the first 7
.

joyofsox · Sep 11, 2014

Edes: Are Pedey's best days behind him?
http://espn.go.com/boston/columns/mlb/story/_/id/11505163/are-dustin-pedroia-best-days-him

But now, it would appear, Pedroia is a candidate to become exactly what the Sox were seeking to avoid: a player who last played a full season healthy in 2011, has had major operations on his thumb and foot and is now facing a procedure for a wrist injury of still-unannounced severity. He also admits to having aggravated the thumb injury, too.

Pedroia has played admirably, dare we say nobly, through injuries that would have sidelined players with less resolve to endure the pain -- one day, he may allow us to tally up the number of cortisone injections he's had in order to remain on the field -- but there has been an unmistakable impact on his play.

threecy · Sep 11, 2014

It is too bad that his peak offensive years have been affected by significant injury.

That said, he's been able to log 580+ plate appearances in all but one season, while still putting up above average OPS and elite defense.

seantoo · Sep 11, 2014

geoduck no quahog said:
Tomorrow I'm going to list all all-star 2B who are shorter than 5' 8" that played until they were 40.

You missed the point and are creating a false argument. Whether or not they played second-base or as you list contained players who may have sniffed the position is not the point, at what point did a small player on the wrong side of 30 who plays balls out and now has incurred 3 straight years of wrist/hand injuries is going to expect a drop-off a the plate. [SIZE=14.3999996185303px](Did I not just predict this about 2 months ago to the chagrin of most here, yes I did.) [/SIZE]He's only a few years away from that happening if he had been healthy, surely this will speed up the process. This long term deal is looking worse all the time. Many here probably don't think I like Pedrioa, in fact the opposite is true, the difference to me at least is that I choose to see the obvious writing on the wall. Sure his defense alone is going to help but I wanted to deal him while the perception was that his offense was good or could return. And once again I was widely ridiculed for proposing the unpopular opinion, so be it.

Savin Hillbilly · Sep 11, 2014

joyofsox said:
Edes: Are Pedey's best days behind him?
http://espn.go.com/boston/columns/mlb/story/_/id/11505163/are-dustin-pedroia-best-days-him

That seems like the wrong question. As a 31-year-old second baseman who has endured multiple non-trivial injuries, it seems overwhelmingly likely that his best days are behind him. And that's not necessarily a problem--it's what you'd expect.

The question is, how bad are his worst days, and how quickly are they coming? I.e., what does his decline curve look like from here? And the answer is that we have no freakin' idea. He could come back next year much the better for the surgery and the extra month off, and give us a few more solid >110 wRC+ years before gradually trailing off to an average or just-below-average hitter into his mid 30s. Or else this is the new normal, he will never be an above-average offensive player again, and within a few years he'll be putting up .250/.300/.320 lines. Either outcome is plausible. And either way, he'll be doing it for the Red Sox. All we (and the FO) can do is cross our fingers.

ALiveH · Sep 11, 2014

seantoo, i lean slightly towards you probably being right, congrats, i guess. good call.

the only counterpoints i have that make it significantly "less bad".

inflation always make these deals look a little higher at inception. The $100M is really only like $90M assuming 3% constant inflation. Second, if he can maintain elite defense, in the present offesnive environment & given the position he plays, the sox should more than get their money's worth even if he's only .650-.700 OPS.

ivanvamp · Sep 11, 2014

Pedroia's offense may be in decline, but he's still a tremendous overall baseball player. His OPS+ the past four seasons: 131, 114, 116, 101. His bWAR the past four seasons: 7.9, 5.1, 6.6, 4.7.

I see every reason to believe that even 5 years from now he'll be a 3.5+ WAR player. At $5.5 million per WAR, that's still more than a $15 million player. Which is right in line with his contract (2019 = $15 million). His salary goes down to 13 and then 12 million the last 2 years, and I still think he'll put up 2 WAR then, on defense alone.

JohntheBaptist · Sep 11, 2014

seantoo said:
You missed the point and are creating a false argument. Whether or not they played second-base or as you list contained players who may have sniffed the position is not the point, at what point did a small player on the wrong side of 30 who plays balls out and now has incurred 3 straight years of wrist/hand injuries is going to expect a drop-off a the plate. [SIZE=14.39px](Did I not just predict this about 2 months ago to the chagrin of most here, yes I did.) [/SIZE]He's only a few years away from that happening if he had been healthy, surely this will speed up the process. This long term deal is looking worse all the time. Many here probably don't think I like Pedrioa, in fact the opposite is true, the difference to me at least is that I choose to see the obvious writing on the wall. Sure his defense alone is going to help but I wanted to deal him while the perception was that his offense was good or could return. And once again I was widely ridiculed for proposing the unpopular opinion, so be it.

Are you capable of simply making a point? Why do you think we care to hear a rundown of your posting history whenever you want to make a point?

No one disagreed with the notion that Pedroia could potentially, like literally every other baseball player, become less than his optimal self with age and injury. You didn't "predict" that, those are a set of circumstances that faces every single baseball player in varying degrees. You, at the trade deadline, wanted to discuss the potential for trading Pedroia away, which was maybe a fun way for you to trot out your airtight exercises in logic and reason, but as nearly everyone who responded to you then stated, it wasn't going to happen. You were given many, many excellent reasons why it wasn't going to happen, and why speculating on it endlessly was a waste of everyone's time. Then, it didn't happen. You were wrong. Yes, any one of us could have constructed a hypothetical argument for why it could have worked/ been a decent idea--but it wasn't realistic. It still isn't. This has nothing to do with "logic." No one cares that you mentioned it two months ago, much less needing to be reminded of it every time you post here.

What is the "obvious writing on the wall" here? You're implying that the difference between you and those that like Pedroia is that you can see it, and they can't. What you're not seeing is that the position in favor of keeping him can and does come from many bright people here who are capable arriving at that conclusion without the influence of their love and affection for Dustin. This is not, in my experience, a place where those things--love for a player, etc--enter into the discussion on keeping/ trading/ extending/ whatever. Seems to me more like someone too immature to accept that he may be wrong or that others may reasonably disagree and wants to project some sort of starry-eyed fanboy thing onto those who do every single time he posts.

mauf · Sep 11, 2014

geoduck no quahog said:
1. What does "small man" have to do with anything?
2. Why does 2 years of unusual injuries early in the season seem predictive?
3. How many 2B were washed up after 30 due to their inability to age well? Let's take a look at the swan-song ages of each all-star since, say 1963 (I just like putting together these lists...Julian Javier?):

Julian Javier: 35
Nellie Fox: 36
Bobby Richardson: 30
Ron Hunt: 33
Pete Rose: 44
Felix Mantilla: 31
Bobby Knoop: 32
Jeff LeFabvre: 30
Bill Mazeroski: 34
Rod Carew: 39
Tommy Helms: 33
Felix Millan: 33
Davey Johnson: 31
Glenn Beckert: 32
Joe Morgan: 40
Bobby Grich: 37
Willie Randolph: 37
Freddie Patek: 35
Davey Lopes: 41
Frank White: 39
Manny Trillo: 37
Steve Sax: 32
Lou Whitaker: 38
Ryne Sandburg: 37
Tom Herr: 35
Paul Molitor: 41
Julio Franco: 48
Roberto Alomar: 36
Mariano Duncan: 34
Craig Biggio: 41
Carlos Baerga: 36
Jay Bell: 37
Jeff Kent: 40
Bret Boone: 36
Alfonso Soriano: 37
Jose Vidro: 33
Brian Roberts: 36
Mark Loretta: 37
Chase Utley: 35+
Placido Polanco: 37
Dustin Pedroia:

"Logic" dictates there should be no expectation that Pedroia will fare any better or worse than his predecessors (excluding the amazing Mr. Franco of course).

Great work.

And a reassuring list -- you have Jose Vidro and Steve Sax, but every other all-star 2B from the past 35 years has been a respectable contributor through at least his age-34 season. Pedroia will be 31 in 2015.

williams_482 · Sep 11, 2014

ivanvamp said:
Pedroia's offense may be in decline, but he's still a tremendous overall baseball player. His OPS+ the past four seasons: 131, 114, 116, 101. His bWAR the past four seasons: 7.9, 5.1, 6.6, 4.7.

I see every reason to believe that even 5 years from now he'll be a 3.5+ WAR player. At $5.5 million per WAR, that's still more than a $15 million player. Which is right in line with his contract (2019 = $15 million). His salary goes down to 13 and then 12 million the last 2 years, and I still think he'll put up 2 WAR then, on defense alone.

Projecting Pedroia to be a 3.5 win player in five years seems extremely generous. Either you believe he will have an unusually flat aging curve or that he is currently a true talent ~6 win player at this point, neither of which seems terribly likely to me.

On the other hand, he hardly needs to be that good to be worth his contract. $5.5M per win is a low end estimate (these articles suggest that $7M is probably more accurate), and with 5% inflation the price per win would be just under $10M by the end of Pedroia's current deal.

Pedroia has been worth 4.7 bWAR and 4.2 fWAR to date in 2014. both ZiPS and Steamer project(ed) him to be worth 0.5 WAR in 65 PAs ROS. that would extrapolate to 5.5 WAR in 650 PAs, but as that 0.5 number is unlikely to be terribly precise I will round that to an even 5.0 projected true talent WAR. With an average (if simplified) aging curve of -0.5 WAR per season, we would project Pedroia to produce ~21 wins between now and the end of the 2021 season, worth approximately $174M, a ~~$64M~~ $76M surplus given his ~~$110M~~ $98M contract.

If you want to assume he is a true talent 4 win player then he still projects to be worth $114M, basically even with what he is expected to be paid.

In short, Pedroia is still a very valuable asset.

EDIT: Forgot that $12.5M of Pedroia's extension has already been paid to him for 2014.

seantoo · Sep 11, 2014

ALiveH said:
seantoo, i lean slightly towards you probably being right, congrats, i guess. good call.

the only counterpoints i have that make it significantly "less bad".

inflation always make these deals look a little higher at inception. The $100M is really only like $90M assuming 3% constant inflation. Second, if he can maintain elite defense, in the present offesnive environment & given the position he plays, the sox should more than get their money's worth even if he's only .650-.700 OPS.

I do not nor have I had a problem with what you state. I had the idea, horrible to most and worthy of hanging to some, that because of our excess talent at second with Mookie and several more in the minors (Coyle etc) and because the youth movement was obvious well before the trade deadline (again a thread where most disagreed that would happen) meant at least a down year and more likely at least two, that it made sense to trade in the chip while it still had alot of cache.

MakMan44 · Sep 11, 2014

seantoo said:
I do not nor have I had a problem with what you state. I had the idea, horrible to most and worthy of hanging to some, that because of our excess talent at second with Mookie and several more in the minors (Coyle etc) and because the youth movement was obvious well before the trade deadline (again a thread where most disagreed that would happen) meant at least a down year and more likely at least two, that it made sense to trade in the chip while it still had alot of cache.

Give it a rest. Please.

joe dokes · Sep 11, 2014

MakMan44 said:
Give it a rest. Please.

Or, like Pedroia, surgery.

absintheofmalaise · Sep 11, 2014

joe dokes said:
Or, like Pedroia, surgery.

There are other options.

E5 Yaz · Sep 11, 2014

absintheofmalaise said:
There are other options.

Amputation?

seantoo · Sep 11, 2014

JohntheBaptist said:
Are you capable of simply making a point? Why do you think we care to hear a rundown of your posting history whenever you want to make a point?

No one disagreed with the notion that Pedroia could potentially, like literally every other baseball player, become less than his optimal self with age and injury. You didn't "predict" that, those are a set of circumstances that faces every single baseball player in varying degrees. You, at the trade deadline, wanted to discuss the potential for trading Pedroia away, which was maybe a fun way for you to trot out your airtight exercises in logic and reason, but as nearly everyone who responded to you then stated, it wasn't going to happen. You were given many, many excellent reasons why it wasn't going to happen, and why speculating on it endlessly was a waste of everyone's time. Then, it didn't happen. You were wrong. Yes, any one of us could have constructed a hypothetical argument for why it could have worked/ been a decent idea--but it wasn't realistic. It still isn't. This has nothing to do with "logic." No one cares that you mentioned it two months ago, much less needing to be reminded of it every time you post here.

What is the "obvious writing on the wall" here? You're implying that the difference between you and those that like Pedroia is that you can see it, and they can't. What you're not seeing is that the position in favor of keeping him can and does come from many bright people here who are capable arriving at that conclusion without the influence of their love and affection for Dustin. This is not, in my experience, a place where those things--love for a player, etc--enter into the discussion on keeping/ trading/ extending/ whatever. Seems to me more like someone too immature to accept that he may be wrong or that others may reasonably disagree and wants to project some sort of starry-eyed fanboy thing onto those who do every single time he posts.

John, I was given 1 reason and 1 only, that he was the face of the franchise and it would never happen and I noted that they are traded all the time. The funny thing is everyone states "there was many reason" but never states what one of them actually are. If you repeat something enough the sheeple will follow and believe it to be true and repeat the same phrase even if it was never true.

To be exact I've had the idea before the deadline and I did not necc. want to trade him at that time nor trade him unless we could land a very good young hitting outfielder as that was an organizational weakness. I was not in this to ruffle feathers nor make a trade just to make a trade. The outfield to some degree has been filled via an avenue I did not foresee with Castilo defecting and the Sox winning the open bid however the jury is still out there on him. The Sox were also able to obtain Cespedes at the trade deadline and he'll be around for at least another season, so the need is not as bad as it once was. The history matters because I was slammed/edited and nearly no-one can stand up and admit they were wrong. It's happened several times in the past and each time history fell on my side, that's why it matters. If people want to act high and mighty then, then they should act like a human being and do a mea culpa, is that to much to ask?
I merely had an idea supported with a well thought out reason, aka having a strength covering a weakness which is baseball trading 101 and the opposition was fanatical in the bashing of the idea. Like it or not (I have no problem with not liking it), it was worthy of discussion. Many threads here are speculation about perceptions on reading peoples face expressions or some other bullshit or other such crap that will never happen, so to single this out as any different is flawed logic at best. This leads me to believe it's an over reaction to a fan favorite and I hit a nerve with the masses. We all have biases whether we realize it or not, that is part of being a human being but we should explore what they are and why we have these perceptions in order to grow. I choose that path even if it makes me a target.

E5 Yaz · Sep 11, 2014

seantoo said:
John, I was given 1 reason and 1 only, that he was the face of the franchise and it would never happen and I noted that they are traded all the time. The funny thing is everyone states "there was many reason" but never states what one of them actually are. If you repeat something enough the sheeple will follow and believe it to be true and repeat the same phrase even if it was never true.

To be exact I've had the idea before the deadline and I did not necc. want to trade him at that time nor trade him unless we could land a very good young hitting outfielder as that was an organizational weakness. I was not in this to ruffle feathers nor make a trade just to make a trade. The outfield to some degree has been filled via an avenue I did not foresee with Castilo defecting and the Sox winning the open bid however the jury is still out there on him. The Sox were also able to obtain Cespedes at the trade deadline and he'll be around for at least another season, so the need is not as bad as it once was. The history matters because I was slammed/edited and nearly know-one can stand up and admit they were wrong. It's happened several times in the past and each time history fell on my side, that's why it matters. If people want to act high and mighty then, then they should act like a human being and do a mea culpa, is that to much to ask?
I merely had an idea supported with a well thought out reason, aka having a strength covering a weakness which is baseball trading 101 and the opposition was fanatical in the bashing of the idea. Like it or not (I have no problem with not liking it), it was worthy of discussion. Many threads here are speculation about perceptions on reading peoples face expressions or some other bullshit or other such crap that will never happen, so to single this out as any different is flawed logic at best. This leads me to believe it's an over reaction to a fan favorite and I hit a nerve with the masses. We all have biases whether we realize it or not, that is part of being a human being but we should explore what they are and why we have these perceptions in order to grow. I choose that path even if it makes me a target.

I swear, every time you launch into one of these posts I hear it read by Oliver Wendell Douglas

joe dokes · Sep 11, 2014

E5 Yaz said:
I swear, every time you launch into one of these posts I hear it read by Oliver Wendell Douglas

To each his own. I hear Eb Dawson . . . .

I choose that path even if it makes me a target

. . . . . .playing Gahndi at the Hooterville Playhouse.

EDIT: Hooterville. They really called it Hooterville.

JohntheBaptist · Sep 11, 2014

JohntheBaptist said:
Are you capable of simply making a point?

seantoo said:
... I choose that path even if it makes me a target.

So I'm taking that as a no.

MakMan44 · Sep 11, 2014

JohntheBaptist said:
So I'm taking that as a no.

Didn't you hear him? He's like, a victim, man.

williams_482 · Sep 11, 2014

seantoo said:
John, I was given 1 reason and 1 only, that he was the face of the franchise and it would never happen and I noted that they are traded all the time. The funny thing is everyone states "there was many reason" but never states what one of them actually are. If you repeat something enough the sheeple will follow and believe it to be true and repeat the same phrase even if it was never true.

People have stated these "many reason" explicitly when this was brought up in the past, but as requested here are some of them again:
- Pedroia is a right handed pull hitter who has done quite a bit of damage by hitting balls off of or over the monster. This makes him disproportionately valuable to the Red Sox relative to other teams, and the return he could bring back in trade would reflect that.
- Pedroia signed a long term deal with the Red Sox for significantly less than he would have received on the open market, stating that he wanted to finish his career here. If the Red Sox were to trade him, future Pedroia's who would consider signing similar below market extensions instead of going to free agency will be much less inclined to do so, because there is a clear possibility that such an extension will result in them being underpaid for a different team they might not want to play for.
- Pedroia is not blocking Mookie Betts, merely pushing him to the outfield. Pedroia is also much more of a "sure thing" than Betts or anyone he would displace.
- Pedroia is a fan favorite and trading him would get people (as well as Pedroia) pissed off at the team in the short term. I agree with you that this is not a good enough reason to not consider trading him, but I will list it anyway for the sake of completeness.

Finally, my apologies for contributing to the further derailment of this thread.

absintheofmalaise · Sep 11, 2014

Back on track here.

Boston Red Sox @RedSox

Dustin Pedroia today underwent a successful first dorsal compartment release and a tenosynovectomy of his left wrist.

Boston Red Sox @RedSox

The procedure was performed by Dr. Matt Leibman at Newton-Wellesley Surgery Center. Pedroia is expected to make a full recovery.

If you feel like watching, there is a video of a surgeon at UVA performing the procedure on YouTube. It is bloodless.

Seabass · Sep 11, 2014

Sox on the wrist:

Dustin Pedroia today underwent a successful first dorsal compartment release and a tenosynovectomy of his left wrist.

I think that means they gave him a dolphin wrist.

Plympton91 · Sep 11, 2014

seantoo said:
You missed the point and are creating a false argument. Whether or not they played second-base or as you list contained players who may have sniffed the position is not the point, at what point did a small player on the wrong side of 30 who plays balls out and now has incurred 3 straight years of wrist/hand injuries is going to expect a drop-off a the plate. (Did I not just predict this about 2 months ago to the chagrin of most here, yes I did.) He's only a few years away from that happening if he had been healthy, surely this will speed up the process. This long term deal is looking worse all the time. Many here probably don't think I like Pedrioa, in fact the opposite is true, the difference to me at least is that I choose to see the obvious writing on the wall. Sure his defense alone is going to help but I wanted to deal him while the perception was that his offense was good or could return. And once again I was widely ridiculed for proposing the unpopular opinion, so be it.

You were ridiculed for thinking that you were more informed about Pedroias likely future performance than major league front offices who would be buying the rest of the contract. Pedroia is, and always has been, more valuable to the Red Sox than any other team. As such, the only logical ex ante expectation is that any realistic trade is going to involve getting less value back than you are giving up. Thus, trading Pedroia while the overwhelming evidence is that he's still earning his contract and more FOR BOSTON, is foolish. And if you think you want to trade even the newly mediocre Pedroia because of some glut of talent in the OF and at 2B, I'm speechless. Rusney Castillo and Mookie Betts are not somehow immune to having a 2015 like JBJ and X have been performing in 2014. Neither Craig nor Victorino is highly likely to be healthy or playing above replacement level, either.

In short, even the 2014 version of Dustin Pedroia is likely to be among the 5 best position players in the Red Sox organization next season. And no team was likely to offer fair value in a trade at any point this season, even if he were fully healthy, which he wasn't.

Pedroia having season ending surgery

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