Ravens game discussion thread

[Al Zarilla]

Flacco was also looking at Smith the whole time which helped draw Harmon over there. On the winning TD pass, Brady at least gave a cursory look to the center of the field before hitting LaFell with the perfect pass in the corner. The Harmon INT also took  more time to develop, making the Flacco staredown more obvious. Little things. 

 

[twothousandone]

I have never been more prepared to watch a football game and understand what to look for on each side of the ball. Football Central is to thank for that. As a result, I wasn't surprised by the stretch runs from Bal. I had hoped we had a way to stop them, but I knew what was happening (and I even think the Patriots kept Forsett from cutting back all that much. Perhaps they focused on that to a fault.) I knew what was possible from Bal's pass rush, and saw the OL do a really nice job keeping them away long enough. I wondered about Daniels, so it wasn't surprising when he caught one TD and just missed on another.
 
I only watched in spurts -- car pools, deadlines and commitments. But when I listened on the radio, I could picture the film from Football Central even as the announcers were offering their typical drivel. I'm looking forward to the whole thing again for Ind.

 

[DaughtersofDougMirabelli]

The LaFell catch:
 

Spoiler

 

[tims4wins]

The LaFell play reminded me of a combo of Givens in the intentional safety game and Thompkins vs. New Orleans last year

 

[jmcc5400]

Definitely DPI on the LaFell catch.  Also thought there were two instances of OPI on Smith on the Harmon pick.  He shoves Ryan to create a little separation and then barrels into Harmon as Harmon is making the catch.  Who knows if the refs kept the flags pocketed because they saw the outcomes. 

 

[DJnVa]

I'd love an All 22 look to see Brady look away the safety, or see if the safety started further away.

 

[mascho]

Flacco was also looking at Smith the whole time which helped draw Harmon over there. On the winning TD pass, Brady at least gave a cursory look to the center of the field before hitting LaFell with the perfect pass in the corner. The Harmon INT also took  more time to develop, making the Flacco staredown more obvious. Little things. 

 
Brady looked at the safety, but it didn't fool Stewart. Watch him break on LaFell:
 

 

I'd love an All 22 look to see Brady look away the safety, or see if the safety started further away.

 
It is more that the safety started further away. In the piece that is coming, Nomario and I highlight how Stewart and Harmon have different alignments pre-snap but the same coverage. 

 

[TomTerrific]

My 9-year-old son trick-or-treated as Johnny Damon on October 31, 2004.  In New York City.
 
By the third time somebody refused to give him a Milky Way, he had perfected his "You're such a douchebag loser" smirk.

 
Nice

 

[Super Nomario]

 
Maybe I missed it, but did nobody else think that the LaFell TD should've been flagged because the DB was pinning down LaFell's lag arm?  Maybe somebody mentioned it in the game thread, but I haven't seen that added to the list of missed calls.

It was a really impressive catch that he made look easy - he basically one-handed it in stride and then was able to wrest his arm free and secure the football. LaFell has been such a huge addition - he's given them exactly what they needed out of that X receiver spot. It was more of a Edelman / Amendola game based on Baltimore playing off so much, but when the Ravens pressed and the Pats needed him to beat press coverage he came up with the game-winning TD.

 

[Marciano490]

It was a really impressive catch that he made look easy - he basically one-handed it in stride and then was able to wrest his arm free and secure the football. LaFell has been such a huge addition - he's given them exactly what they needed out of that X receiver spot. It was more of a Edelman / Amendola game based on Baltimore playing off so much, but when the Ravens pressed and the Pats needed him to beat press coverage he came up with the game-winning TD.

 
LaFell definitely deserves some love for his play this season.  I don't remember him being warmly welcomed 'round here, and there were some questions about his hands and I believe work ethic.  But, he's been nails from the KC game onward - clutch catches and great YAC.

 

[tims4wins]

This morning TB12 called him the toughest player he has ever played with.

 

[DJnVa]

 
Brady looked at the safety, but it didn't fool Stewart. Watch him break on LaFell:
 

 
 
It is more that the safety started further away. In the piece that is coming, Nomario and I highlight how Stewart and Harmon have different alignments pre-snap but the same coverage. 

 
Nice.
 
I'm glad Mosely (#57) was apparently tasked to watch Bolden, because it looks like if he comes immediately he's interfering with that throw.

 

[DaughtersofDougMirabelli]

He got a lot of crap for having stone hands coming out of Carolina, even from their fans who seemed fine with letting him walk.
 
His hands have looked incredibly sticky. In traffic, with guys on him, even on tough throws I feel like I haven't even seen him bobble the ball all year. 
 
PFF says he has 5 drops but I can't remember a single one. 

 

[lexrageorge]

He got a lot of crap for having stone hands coming out of Carolina, even from their fans who seemed fine with letting him walk.
 
His hands have looked incredibly sticky. In traffic, with guys on him, even on tough throws I feel like I haven't even seen him bobble the ball all year. 
 
PFF says he has 5 drops but I can't remember a single one. 

The link below says LaFell has 2 drops:
 
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2014/
 
PFF is hard to believe sometimes.  

 

[Stitch01]

 
Nice.
 
I'm glad Mosely (#57) was apparently tasked to watch Bolden, because it looks like if he comes immediately he's interfering with that throw.

Looks like there's a big play to Bolden there if he does come.

 

[GregHarris]

Mosely would have to deal with the failed Suggs swim move that Solder is handing perfectly.  That hole closed quickly.
 
 
Edit: McPhee not Suggs.  Where the hell is Suggs?

 

[steveluck7]

 
Brady looked at the safety, but it didn't fool Stewart. Watch him break on LaFell:
 

 
 
It is more that the safety started further away. In the piece that is coming, Nomario and I highlight how Stewart and Harmon have different alignments pre-snap but the same coverage. 

Brady's throw was also 20 yards shorter so the safety had that much less time to get inot position

 

[tims4wins]

Mosely would have to deal with the failed Suggs swim move that Solder is handing perfectly.  That hold closed quickly.

 
That's not Suggs, it is 90.
 
Speaking of - it appears to me that Hacksaw from Ball So Hard U was not on the field on the biggest play of the game. Ball Not So Hard I guess.

 

[GregHarris]

Yeah fixed that, also where is Dumervil?  Pats just outside of the red zone with 5:30 left in the game and Balts two best pass rushers are nowhere to be found?  Gamers!

 

[DJnVa]

Mosely would have to deal with the failed Suggs swim move that Solder is handing perfectly.  That hole closed quickly.
 
 

 
True. If Mosley was tasked to rush the passer though, that swim move probably wouldn't have been attempted, he would push outside more to open that lane to the QB.

 

[ObstructedView]

 
That's not Suggs, it is 90.
 
Speaking of - it appears to me that Hacksaw from Ball So Hard U was not on the field on the biggest play of the game. Ball Not So Hard I guess.

One of my favorite little moments from the game was how Suggs pulled up in the backfield and became a spectator as Edelman planted and launched the rope to Amendola.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
Nice.
 
I'm glad Mosely (#57) was apparently tasked to watch Bolden, because it looks like if he comes immediately he's interfering with that throw.

 
Bolden is probably reading Moseley first.  If he blitzes Bolden stays in that gap and picks it up.  If he drops or hesitates, Bolden sneaks out through the other side of the line to give Brady an outlet.

 

[tims4wins]

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4776177/another-nfl-team-used-four-offensive-linemen-set
 
Pats might have gotten inspiration for the eligible trick from the Lions. In that play, the powerhouse Vikings were able to sack Stafford.
 
Nicely done, Harbaugh.
 
 
 

Back in Week 6, the Detroit Lions traveled to Minnesota to play the Vikings. At 8:59 of the third quarter, Detroit deployed a personnel group that actually featured six offensive linemen, but the formation is nearly identical to what the Patriots did on Sunday with their four offensive linemen set.

The Lions flexed an offensive lineman out between two receivers, similar to what the Patriots did with Shane Vereen. In both cases, these players were ineligible receivers based off of alignment (note: any player that aligns on the line of scrimmage but is covered up by another receiver is ineligible).

On the other side of the formation, the Lions had two receivers aligned outside but off of the line of scrimmage, making the right tackle an eligible receiver, much like Michael Hoomanawanui was for the Patriots while on the left side of the line.

As far as route concepts go, much like the Patriots did, the Lions sent four of their receivers vertically up the field (including the right tackle on a seam route, a la Hoomanwanui) and kept the ineligible receiver behind the line of scrimmage.

The Lions were less successful in their attempt (the Vikings sacked quarterback Matthew Stafford)

 

[loshjott]

Definitely DPI on the LaFell catch.  Also thought there were two instances of OPI on Smith on the Harmon pick.  He shoves Ryan to create a little separation and then barrels into Harmon as Harmon is making the catch.  Who knows if the refs kept the flags pocketed because they saw the outcomes. 

 
I thought of that too, but they really can't do that real time. What if LaFell is still bobbling the ball as he goes out of bounds?  It's easy to say now that it wasn't close to that but I don't think the ref would take that chance. 

 

[Kevin Youkulele]

Has anyone seen a breakdown of live ball penalties (not unsportsmanlike, flase start, delay of game, etc) assessed vs offenses and defenses, either for the NE-BAL game or the whole weekend?  OPI flags were MIA and offensive holding almost were too (I think only a very small number of offensive holding flags in the whole weekend, although I did not see every second of every game).  Flags for defensive holding were everywhere.  

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Flacco was also looking at Smith the whole time which helped draw Harmon over there. On the winning TD pass, Brady at least gave a cursory look to the center of the field before hitting LaFell with the perfect pass in the corner. The Harmon INT also took  more time to develop, making the Flacco staredown more obvious. Little things. 

 
Also Flacco had more air under the ball.  Harmon might not get it if he throws it on a rope, but that's a much tougher throw.  I also think Flacco overthrew Smith (or misjudged how fast Smith was running); I think he was trying to throw a jump ball for Torrey but Torrey didn't get there in time.
 

Yeah fixed that, also where is Dumervil?  Pats just outside of the red zone with 5:30 left in the game and Balts two best pass rushers are nowhere to be found?  Gamers!

 
The Ravens have been rotating defensive lineman to try to keep them fresh.  Rushing every down for a half is going to wear out anybody.  Of course Brady was getting the ball out so quickly the Ravens couldn't get there.

 

[caesarbear]

 
Bolden is probably reading Moseley first.  If he blitzes Bolden stays in that gap and picks it up.  If he drops or hesitates, Bolden sneaks out through the other side of the line to give Brady an outlet.

and Bolden would've had a lot of room with three blockers. If Brady didn't like what he saw with LaFell that was certainly going to be the play.
 

 

[Tony C]

FYI Nomario and I have a piece in the works comparing LaFell's TD to Harmon's INT. Nearly identical plays all-around.

 
can't wait!
 

It was a really impressive catch that he made look easy - he basically one-handed it in stride and then was able to wrest his arm free and secure the football. LaFell has been such a huge addition - he's given them exactly what they needed out of that X receiver spot. It was more of a Edelman / Amendola game based on Baltimore playing off so much, but when the Ravens pressed and the Pats needed him to beat press coverage he came up with the game-winning TD.

 
truly amazing...clear PI, but has to be added that if it's not a perfect throw he can't do that one handed cradle.
 

One of my favorite little moments from the game was how Suggs pulled up in the backfield and became a spectator as Edelman planted and launched the rope to Amendola.

 
yes! I wish that was pointed out -- balling at all times...except when he walks toward Edelman.
 

 
Also Flacco had more air under the ball.  Harmon might not get it if he throws it on a rope, but that's a much tougher throw.  I also think Flacco overthrew Smith (or misjudged how fast Smith was running); I think he was trying to throw a jump ball for Torrey but Torrey didn't get there in time.
 
 
The Ravens have been rotating defensive lineman to try to keep them fresh.  Rushing every down for a half is going to wear out anybody.  Of course Brady was getting the ball out so quickly the Ravens couldn't get there.

 
Not that it helped them, but why don't the Pats do some of that?

 

[chief1]

and Bolden would've had a lot of room with three blockers. If Brady didn't like what he saw with LaFell that was certainly going to be the play.
 

With the way the calls were going, I cant believe they didn't call offensive PI on Gronk! Just like thy did on Troy Brown in the 06 AFCC

 

[Kevin Youkulele]

With the way the calls were going, I cant believe they didn't call offensive PI on Gronk! Just like thy did on Troy Brown in the 06 AFCC

For there to be OPI, doesn't there need to be a pass to that player?  The throw was obviously not to Gronk on that play.  And there is no offensive analog of illegal contact by the defense.  So I don't think there's anything to flag Gronk for, provided there was no holding or hands to the face.  At any rate, the crew was not calling many live ball offensive fouls at all. 

 

[chief1]

For there to be OPI, doesn't there need to be a pass to that player?  The throw was obviously not to Gronk on that play.  And there is no offensive analog of illegal contact by the defense.  So I don't think there's anything to flag Gronk for, provided there was no holding or hands to the face.  At any rate, the crew was not calling many live ball offensive fouls at all. 

I am pretty certain that in 06 the pass did not go to TB, but they called it on him anyway. My recollection was he was not involved in the play. Does anyone remember?

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Here's a question I haven't seen discussed much -- sorry if it has.  With 2:12 to go, the Ravens faced a 4th and 3 at their 42 yard line, down by 4 points.  With the play clock running down, they used their second time out.  
 
Instead of the time out, do you consider simply taking the delay of game and the five yard penalty.  Is the difference between 4th and 3 and 4th and 8 worth a time out at that time in the game?  
 
If you don't concert the fourth down, the difference between having two time outs and one is pretty significant.  You're still on the plus side of the two minute warning.  If you turn the ball over on downs, and keep the Patriots from getting a first down, you still have about 2 minutes left to get a touch down (either to win or to tie, if the Patriots kick a long field goal.)  By using the time out, the Ravens were putting themselves in position where, by not converting, the would only have had a little more than a minute left with no times outs even if they stop the Patriots.
 
Even if you convert the first down, not having that time out is very significant.  Once they made the first down and got to the two minute warning, having used that time out essentially put them in position where they had to get a touch down.  If they had taken a delay of game penalty and kept the time out, even if they turn the ball over back to the Patriots, they still have a chance to call time out twice.  
 
To me, I think you probably call the time out.  The difference between 4th and 3 and 4th and 8 is significant enough that it's worth the time out.  Only needing 3 yards puts enough additional successful plays on the table that I think it's worth it.  But this situation actually comes up quite a bit.  It happened toward the end of the year in, I think, a 49ers game, and the situation was something like 4th and 12, and Kaepernick called a time out as he noticed the play clock expiring.  They didn't pick up the first down, and the other team was able to run the clock almost to the end of the game, where the time out would have at least given the 49ers like 40 seconds after a punt.  

 

[Kevin Youkulele]

I am pretty certain that in 06 the pass did not go to TB, but they called it on him anyway. My recollection was he was not involved in the play. Does anyone remember?

Weird.  The rule (for DPI at least, and it would be really strange if this was asymmetric as to OPI) is that there cannot be interference where the ball is uncatchable.  If the ball isn't even thrown in that general vicinity, how is it not uncatchable for the victim of the interference? 

 

[lexrageorge]

Weird.  The rule (for DPI at least, and it would be really strange if this was asymmetric as to OPI) is that there cannot be interference where the ball is uncatchable.  If the ball isn't even thrown in that general vicinity, how is it not uncatchable for the victim of the interference? 

There are 2 parts to offensive pass interference:
 
a.) When the ball is in the air, the offensive player cannot interfere with the defender.  Both the receiver and the defender have a right to go for the ball.  Incidental contact is allowed.  In both DPI and OPI, the ball must be considered catchable. OPI and DPI are analogous in this instance. 
 
b.) Blocking a defender more than one yard downfield before a pass is thrown (or after it is thrown, but before it is touched).  The closest analogy here is defensive holding.  An example of this was the infamous "pick play" by Welker against Talib in last year's AFCCG.

 

[staz]

Flaccio is DEALING on the NFL Network

 

[RIrooter09]

Flaccio is DEALING on the NFL Network

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[baruch20]

Finally someone brave enough to expose the depth of the pats cheating and trickery.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/01/12/six-other-deceptive-tricks-the-sneaky-patriots-used-grab-victory-out-the-ravens-claws/HRefQaI9qSSoznYREfTlmN/story.html

 

[lexrageorge]

Here's a question I haven't seen discussed much -- sorry if it has.  With 2:12 to go, the Ravens faced a 4th and 3 at their 42 yard line, down by 4 points.  With the play clock running down, they used their second time out.  
 
Instead of the time out, do you consider simply taking the delay of game and the five yard penalty.  Is the difference between 4th and 3 and 4th and 8 worth a time out at that time in the game?  
 
If you don't concert the fourth down, the difference between having two time outs and one is pretty significant.  You're still on the plus side of the two minute warning.  If you turn the ball over on downs, and keep the Patriots from getting a first down, you still have about 2 minutes left to get a touch down (either to win or to tie, if the Patriots kick a long field goal.)  By using the time out, the Ravens were putting themselves in position where, by not converting, the would only have had a little more than a minute left with no times outs even if they stop the Patriots.
 
Even if you convert the first down, not having that time out is very significant.  Once they made the first down and got to the two minute warning, having used that time out essentially put them in position where they had to get a touch down.  If they had taken a delay of game penalty and kept the time out, even if they turn the ball over back to the Patriots, they still have a chance to call time out twice.  
 
To me, I think you probably call the time out.  The difference between 4th and 3 and 4th and 8 is significant enough that it's worth the time out.  Only needing 3 yards puts enough additional successful plays on the table that I think it's worth it.  But this situation actually comes up quite a bit.  It happened toward the end of the year in, I think, a 49ers game, and the situation was something like 4th and 12, and Kaepernick called a time out as he noticed the play clock expiring.  They didn't pick up the first down, and the other team was able to run the clock almost to the end of the game, where the time out would have at least given the 49ers like 40 seconds after a punt.  

If they miss the 4th down conversion, the probability of getting the ball back anywhere within range of the end zone are pretty minimal, even with the extra timeout.  Yes, they could have stopped the clock and forced the Pats to convert a first or punt.  Even if they forced the punt, however, the Pats would be punting from midfield, and the Ravens are likely driving at least 80 yards with under a minute left.  Probability of a win becomes very small.  
 
So, they did the right thing by calling the timeout. 

 

[mascho]

A Tale of Two Streak Routes is now live. 
 

 
About three-and-a-half minutes after Brady found LaFell in the end zone against Cover 1 to take the lead, Ravens quarterback Joe Flacco faces a nearly identical look from the left hash, and he targets Torrey Smith on the same route on which LaFell scored. As the play unfolds, however, key differences emerge from the Patriots’ successful pass. They are little things, but little things add up.

 

[Kevin Youkulele]

A Tale of Two Streak Routes is now live.

I thoroughly enjoyed that. The bit of pressure from Collins was subtle but very important to what kind of throw Flacco could make.

 

[LogansDad]

A Tale of Two Streak Routes is now live. 
 

Awesome article, as always.  Thanks for posting.

 

[JohnnyK]

One thing I am not sure about - it looked to me like the Pats defense was often confused in the early goings and got set really late, resulting in them not always being lined up properly. This did not seem deliberate (with the intent to confuse the offense), so am I missing something here or did they seem to be somewhat unprepared to what the Ravens were doing?

 

[EJPats]

A Tale of Two Streak Routes is now live. 
 

Just want to join the chorus singing this article's praises. Awesome job.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Finally someone brave enough to expose the depth of the pats cheating and trickery.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/01/12/six-other-deceptive-tricks-the-sneaky-patriots-used-grab-victory-out-the-ravens-claws/HRefQaI9qSSoznYREfTlmN/story.html

 
I think that's basically on page 1 or 2 of this thread

 

[JohnnyK]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/inside-the-nfl/0ap3000000459067/Inside-the-NFL-Ravens-vs-Patriots-highlights
Edelman mic'ed up
Hardly anything from him in there. Still very much worth it.

 

[Saints Rest]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/inside-the-nfl/0ap3000000459067/Inside-the-NFL-Ravens-vs-Patriots-highlights
Edelman mic'ed up
Hardly anything from him in there. Still very much worth it.

My favorite line was Edelman near the end saying "C'mon Joe, throw us one."

 

[Van Everyman]

Edelman may not have said much but Suggs was the revelation in the mic'd up section. He makes some really interesting comments – and not just that he thought Brady was flopping on the scrum after the sack (which I suppose was possible).

One comment he makes is that he sees pretty early on that the Pats' strategy is going to be to let Brady win it. Another is the way he supports the DB on the sideline after he gets burned on one of the Pats TDs. He definitely doesn't let it slide but doesn't tear him to shreds either. And if memory serves, he's not boarding the crybaby train about the deception stuff either – but talking to his teammates about how to adjust.

I know we like to kill Suggs for being a meathead and a thug here. And j don't think he played a particularly good game (which may have been due to BB's gameplan). But I actually thought you actually got to see what makes him such a respected guy in the league.

Also worth noting from the bits with the coaches on the sidelines:

* Harbaugh seemed a lot more engaged in trying to get his guys to respond to the "deception" than he seemed to indicate in his comments. Which combined w the SOSH Central piece that demonstrated they lined up the same way on the latter plays as they had on the first would back up those who argue Harbaugh was more embarrassed than anything.

* BB does a variation on his "Do your job" mantra but with a bit of a twist. I'm not sure when that part was recorded but I couldn't help but think he was talking about guys like Collins who was late for his assignment covering Forsett outside because he tried to also chip the receiver running an in route. This struck me as less about work ethic and teamwork than imploring his guys to trust the gameplan.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Edelman may not have said much but Suggs was the revelation in the mic'd up section. He makes some really interesting comments – and not just that he thought Brady was flopping on the scrum after the sack (which I suppose was possible).

I was thinking the same thing. Suggs came across in a positive light in terms of a football player and leader, not speaking to the type of person he is. I did enjoy him calling for an illegal formation when a flag was thrown on Harbaugh temper-tantrum though.

 

[Shelterdog]

I know we like to kill Suggs for being a meathead and a thug here. And j don't think he played a particularly good game (which may have been due to BB's gameplan). But I actually thought you actually got to see what makes him such a respected guy in the league.

 

 
We don't hate him for being a meathead--some of our favorite players are meatheads.  I certainly didn't have an opinion about whether he's a smart player or not.
 
No we hate him for being a dirty player, a shit talker, and someone who poured bleach on his wife and baby son. Also because he looks like Uruk-Hai and because he sometimes enters the stadium playing fucking dress up:

 

[Toe Nash]

Suggs is a respected guy around the league (outside of Baltimore)? News to me.