Agreed.Kenny F'ing Powers said:
"Oh I'll grab Sherman in the second.. shit
That's ok I'm sure Patrick Peterson will be there... fuck
Ok ok, people must have forgotten about Suh, Kalil, or Clay one will fall.. god dammit."
RealFantasy Pigskin 2013: Draft and Discussion
- Thread starter Morgan's Magic Snowplow
- Start date
"Oh I'll grab Sherman in the second.. shit
That's ok I'm sure Patrick Peterson will be there... fuck
Ok ok, people must have forgotten about Suh, Kalil, or Clay one will fall.. god dammit."
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Picking low, I wanted to go D on the first two picks. As KFP noted, folks have generally done a very good job at taking the value off the board. I had hoped that Dalton or Schaub might slip, but now I am stuck with a lottery ticket at QB, and it is too early to buy one of those. So I am going to stay in the Pacific Northwest and take Bobby Wagner, ILB, Seattle.
He was the FO defensive rookie of the year, and PFF grades him as a positive in coverage, pass rush, and run stuffing (clearly his best skill). He is only a rookie, so hopefully he continues to develop and improve (especially in pass coverage), in the way that Willis did.
I'm having a hard time putting up a picture of Wagner (I'm getting an error message about the file extension type) so I'll put up this one of Kalil's mom (and sister) instead that I was going to use if I picked him.
Quick, can you name the 5 top pass rushers of 2012 according to PFF? Here's the list...
And can you guess the 6th best pass rusher? Didn't think so.
Charles Johnson, Defensive End, Carolina Panthers
This kid is only 26 years old, but he's averaged 11 sacks a season over the past 3 years (12.5 this year). While the stats say he wasn't great against the run this year, I think that was a byproduct of Carolina wanting him to pin his ears back and go get the QB. He's previously graded out very well against the run--in 2010 he was considered the second best 4-3 DE in the NFL according to PFF--so I'm not worried that he's going to turn into John Abraham 2.0 (although that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either).
He's a pretty complete player, but more importantly he gives us the QB pressure we need. He was 1 of only 4 players with 50+ QB hurries in the NFL last year, and one of only 3 players to do so in 2010. We didn't want to end up without a premiere pass rush talent, and after Johnson, the well starts to run a little dry. We're psyched to get him on the way back in round two.
1.) J.J. Watt
2.) Geno Atkins
3.) Von Miller
4.) Cameron Wake
5.) Ndamukong Suh
2.) Geno Atkins
3.) Von Miller
4.) Cameron Wake
5.) Ndamukong Suh
And can you guess the 6th best pass rusher? Didn't think so.
Charles Johnson, Defensive End, Carolina Panthers
This kid is only 26 years old, but he's averaged 11 sacks a season over the past 3 years (12.5 this year). While the stats say he wasn't great against the run this year, I think that was a byproduct of Carolina wanting him to pin his ears back and go get the QB. He's previously graded out very well against the run--in 2010 he was considered the second best 4-3 DE in the NFL according to PFF--so I'm not worried that he's going to turn into John Abraham 2.0 (although that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either).
He's a pretty complete player, but more importantly he gives us the QB pressure we need. He was 1 of only 4 players with 50+ QB hurries in the NFL last year, and one of only 3 players to do so in 2010. We didn't want to end up without a premiere pass rush talent, and after Johnson, the well starts to run a little dry. We're psyched to get him on the way back in round two.
Yup, very nice pick. I had his name written out and was in the middle of searching for a picture of him when I switched and went with Clay Matthews a few picks ago.
I could see the arguments for going D or OL here, but I'll take one of the top WR left.
WR AJ Green
I'm sure there will be debate over whether this is too high for the remaining WR, or whether Green is the best remaining option at the position, but I'll go with him. He's young, a physical freak even by NFL standards, and one of the better deep threats in football (NFL-high 7 catches over 40 yards, but only 16 over 20, oddly). Unlike the Bengals, I'm gonna get some serious weapons around him, and I offer a better QB than Andy Dalton.
WR AJ Green
I'm sure there will be debate over whether this is too high for the remaining WR, or whether Green is the best remaining option at the position, but I'll go with him. He's young, a physical freak even by NFL standards, and one of the better deep threats in football (NFL-high 7 catches over 40 yards, but only 16 over 20, oddly). Unlike the Bengals, I'm gonna get some serious weapons around him, and I offer a better QB than Andy Dalton.
The problem I have with WR's other than Calvin is that you need to have a top notch QB or something close to it at least to make the WR. This is perfectly shown with one of the top notch WR's who is left, which we can discuss further when he is drafted.Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
edit: Let me clarify, I love AJ and do think he is the second best wideout after Calvin, I am just not sure that I would draft wideouts in the first couple of rounds as you can find value at that position later.
Would love some candid feedback on my selections, especially the decision to take Wake over Matthews, and Hayward over Revis.
For the record, in addition to the two guys I took, the other DEF players I was seriously looking at were Peterson, Matthews, Revis, and Wagner (love that pick too btw). Happy to see I hadn't overvalued any of them.
Also - more pictures of Kalil's sister are necessary. For science. For evaluating his genetics. Yes, thats it.
For the record, in addition to the two guys I took, the other DEF players I was seriously looking at were Peterson, Matthews, Revis, and Wagner (love that pick too btw). Happy to see I hadn't overvalued any of them.
Also - more pictures of Kalil's sister are necessary. For science. For evaluating his genetics. Yes, thats it.
BoSoxFink said:
I think this is overstated - I think it's certainly true at the extremes (the truly great QB don't need great WR, but even the great WR need something better than dogshit at QB), but it's a far murkier issue otherwise. And I know the guy you have in mind, and I think that the QB situation there was SO bad (producing one of the worst offenses in years) that it's not the best test case.
EDIT - By the way, I'm not saying this to defend the Green pick - I'm merely offering general commentary.
I love Cameron Wake, I have seen him dominate in some games against the Pats, which maybe makes me think he is better than he is, but I have no problem with the pick. Hayward over Revis is something I may not have done myself, but I can see the argument for doing it as well.sleepyjose03 said:
Funny, I heard no one comment on my JPP pick which makes me think it was either a bad pick, or just a meh pick. I still think he may be the best DE in football after Watt right now. I am curious what others thought of that pick as well.
I don't think you need a top QB, you just can't have a completely incompetent QB.BoSoxFink said:
The guy you're thinking about went for 80/1400/8 in 2011 and look who was throwing him the ball.
Yea I agree, that I probably do way overstate that fact, but I am still not convinced fully that it is worth drafting WR's this early, unless you are pairing up the 2013 version of the 2007 version of Randy Moss and Tom Brady.Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
BoSoxFink said:
I like the Wake pick too. Guy is a stud. He's a little on the older side though, which is why I prefer Matthews to him. When building a team from scratch, I'd prefer the younger guy if they're similar players.
I'm not so sure about the Hayward pick, though. I think there are a few CBs out there that are better than he is. He didn't play full time last year and did a lot of his work in the slot. Counting on him to match up against opposing team's #1 WR could present some challenges. But the guy is young and he's definitely a ballhawk. He probably wouldn't have made it back to you had you passed on him, so if you're a believer in the guy (which you are, obviously), you probably had to take him there. And personally, I've liked him since his Vanderbilt days and wanted the Pats to take him in the draft last year, so don't think I'm completely hating on this pick. He's a quality young corner.
As for the JPP pick, Fink, I don't think you're getting a lot of feedback on it because the pick made a lot of sense. After Watt and Miller, it's either JPP or Aldon Smith as the next big pass rusher and you can't go wrong with a guy like JPP. He's a guy offenses have to account for, often drawing double teams and chip blocks from TE's/RB's to help in pass protection, and he's young enough to have not even scratched his full potential yet. I'd be really happy with that pick if I were you. I could see an argument for one of the QB's taken shortly after you or Geno Atkins, but I don't see anything wrong with going the JPP route.
In a meeting so just the pick for now.
The Colts select DeMarcus Ware. I can't believe this guy is still available. Arguably the best pash rusher in the league.
The Colts select DeMarcus Ware. I can't believe this guy is still available. Arguably the best pash rusher in the league.
He took a significant step back last year, at 30 years old. He had previously been very well rounded, but is now looking like a pass rush specialist. I also worry about his unique size, and that if he slows at all, which is to be expected on the wrong side of 30, that his production will seriously decrease. I'm not saying it's a bad pick, but those were my concerns when looking at him.
I am surprise a bit that this guy is still on the board at this point, but with the Chiefs second round pick we will select OT Jake Long.
This guy in my opinion is the best Tackle left on the board and may even be slightly better than some of the guys selected ahead of him. I am glad he was still available here because there were not many top notch Offensive Left Tackles left. We will gladly accept him onto our squad and have both a top notch Pass Rusher and top notch pass blocker to start out our squad with.
This guy in my opinion is the best Tackle left on the board and may even be slightly better than some of the guys selected ahead of him. I am glad he was still available here because there were not many top notch Offensive Left Tackles left. We will gladly accept him onto our squad and have both a top notch Pass Rusher and top notch pass blocker to start out our squad with.
Yea this is my problem with him too. I looked at him for the pick I just made as well, but I had already taken JPP in the first round and went a different route. He can definitely still rush the passer but as you said if he indeed is becoming one dimensional then it is way too early to draft him this high.Kenny F'ing Powers said:
BoSoxFink said:I am surprise a bit that this guy is still on the board at this point, but with the Chiefs second round pick we will select OT Jake Long.
This guy in my opinion is the best Tackle left on the board and may even be slightly better than some of the guys selected ahead of him. I am glad he was still available here because there were not many top notch Offensive Left Tackles left. We will gladly accept him onto our squad and have both a top notch Pass Rusher and top notch pass blocker to start out our squad with.
I'm not surprised he's still available. Injuries sapped him of his agility and he really isn't that good anymore. The dolphins don't even seem to want to bring him back. I don't like this pick.
Edit: To add, he's been in decline for two years, this isn't just a one year thing. He was average last year and pretty poor this year. This isn't just a "advanced stats" thing either. Check out the Dolphins thread in this forum. Plenty of Dolphins fans say he doesn't pass the eye test anymore either.
Yea I know he still has detractors, but I am not fully convinced he is done, he is only 27 years old. We shall see, I could definitely be wrong, but I am thinking some of his problems were injuries and he can still get back to being the top Tackle he was just a year or 2 ago. It just seems strange for a 27 year old to lose it like that.Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Love the AJ Green pick. IMO, by far the 2nd best receiver in the game. The guy can do it all, and he's not afraid to go over the middle. If he fell to me I would've taken him in a heartbeat even though I'm not really looking offense.
As I stated with my first pick, defense is very important to me. You need elite playmakers on all 3 levels to be a dominant defense. I have taken care of the 1st level with Aldon Smith and now I will take care of the 2nd level.
With the 15th pick of the 2nd round, the Jets select ILB NaVorro Bowman. The 2-time First-Team All-Pro is only going into his 4th season. He is a tremendous run-stopper who has 292 tackles in the past 2 years. He also is mobile and quick enough to defend the pass as well. I am very happy to add NaVorro to the Jets.
With the 15th pick of the 2nd round, the Jets select ILB NaVorro Bowman. The 2-time First-Team All-Pro is only going into his 4th season. He is a tremendous run-stopper who has 292 tackles in the past 2 years. He also is mobile and quick enough to defend the pass as well. I am very happy to add NaVorro to the Jets.
Having addressed the QB position, it is time to have some fun.
With the 16th pick in the second round, and the 48th pick overall, the Washington Redskins select:
Greg Hardy, DE
We here in Skinstown look to be running a 4-3 with a lot of sub packages, so we need to generate some pass rush up front with our front four. We were sad to see Hardy's teammate come off the board, but Hardy himself accounted for 13 sacks last season. We look to team him up with some more talent up front, and we look for him to continue to produce for us for a long time.
With the 16th pick in the second round, and the 48th pick overall, the Washington Redskins select:
Greg Hardy, DE
We here in Skinstown look to be running a 4-3 with a lot of sub packages, so we need to generate some pass rush up front with our front four. We were sad to see Hardy's teammate come off the board, but Hardy himself accounted for 13 sacks last season. We look to team him up with some more talent up front, and we look for him to continue to produce for us for a long time.
RedOctober3829 said:
Fuck. This screwed up my pick a bit. I'm deciding between a two lesser choices now, it'll be up shortly.
I like the Bowman and Hardy picks, but not loving the Ware/Long picks. Both guys have some serious concerns, particularly Long who's seen his play really drop off. I like building around a solid O line, but I just worry that his best days are behind him.
With the 50th pick the San Francisco 49ers select: DE Muhammad Wilkerson
At age 23 he was one of the only bright spots for the New York Jets this season. He has the flexibility to play 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT. His sacks weren't anything to write home about and maybe the main reason he started to fall but he was disruptive in every other phase of the game.
His run defense is where he holds his highest value. PFF had him rated as the second best run defender of all defensive lineman only behind JJ Watt. This led to him being rated the 4th highest defensive lineman behind Watt, Geno, and Wake.
70 Tackles, 5 Sacks, 3 FF, 4 Passes Defended, 1 Blocked FG
Kid's got swagger.
At age 23 he was one of the only bright spots for the New York Jets this season. He has the flexibility to play 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT. His sacks weren't anything to write home about and maybe the main reason he started to fall but he was disruptive in every other phase of the game.
His run defense is where he holds his highest value. PFF had him rated as the second best run defender of all defensive lineman only behind JJ Watt. This led to him being rated the 4th highest defensive lineman behind Watt, Geno, and Wake.
70 Tackles, 5 Sacks, 3 FF, 4 Passes Defended, 1 Blocked FG
Kid's got swagger.
Great pick. I was really hoping that Wilkerson would fly under the radar due to low sack totals and Jets-antipathy. Would have loved to pair him with Wake as an interior force on the DLine.
I feel a little stupid taking a QB in this slot with only two teams ahead of me in the draft lacking signal callers. But this guy is so far ahead of everybody else on my board that I can't take the risk of Myt or Eck grabbing him. Let's take a step back and consider the career of Sam Bradford, QB. Going into the 2010 draft, Bradford was seen by many talent evaluators as the best QB prospect in years, an elite talent combining very high football IQ, great ball placement, advanced pocket presence, and more than adequate arm strength whose only drawback surrounded the shoulder injury he suffered at OU. Bradford gets drafted first overall by the Rams, a team so lacking in offensive talent that the previous year they scored 175 points, the second lowest total of any team since 2000. Bradford promptly wins OROY, despite being asked to throw the ball a bazillion times to a rotating group of about 12 guys, none of whom can run a pattern longer than 10 yards. The next year the wheels come off completely, as injuries to the offensive line are added to the talentless mix. Bradford gets absolutely destroyed and misses half the season due to injury. On the bright side, this brings the Steve Spagnuolo era to an end. In 2012, Jeff Fisher enters the picture, carting along a third different OC in as many years, and manages to actually stabilize the situation a little bit, with the help of greater OL continuity and the emergence of rookie WR Chris Givens. Despite still having relatively little talent on offense - the previous drafts and FA activity were geared toward rebuilding what is now a fairly scary looking defense - the Rams finish with a basically league-average passing attack due to some very encouraging play by Bradford, who completes 60% of his throws for 3700 yards and a 21/13 TD/INT ratio.
From the first day, Bradford has had everything you need to be an upper-tier QB in the league except a bunch of guys around him who can actually play football at an NFL level. But there is reason to be bullish on Bradford's situation going forward - the Rams finally have a little bit of receiving talent, they finally have some coaching stability, and their four 1st rounders in the next two drafts will probably be spent mainly on offense. That's a context in which he's going to have a very good shot at realizing his potential. If I'm drafting for the future and only thinking about young QBs, the only guys I clearly want more than Bradford are Luck, RGIII, Wilson, and Kaepernick. In my mind he's right there with Stafford and Newton, lacking their physical skills but surpassing both in terms of accuracy and decision making. If Bradford had been lucky enough to play on a team with even average offensive talent the last few years I don't think he makes it past the first 15-20 picks of this draft, maybe even higher.
Hopefully Bradford will take some fashion tips from Von Miller.
From the first day, Bradford has had everything you need to be an upper-tier QB in the league except a bunch of guys around him who can actually play football at an NFL level. But there is reason to be bullish on Bradford's situation going forward - the Rams finally have a little bit of receiving talent, they finally have some coaching stability, and their four 1st rounders in the next two drafts will probably be spent mainly on offense. That's a context in which he's going to have a very good shot at realizing his potential. If I'm drafting for the future and only thinking about young QBs, the only guys I clearly want more than Bradford are Luck, RGIII, Wilson, and Kaepernick. In my mind he's right there with Stafford and Newton, lacking their physical skills but surpassing both in terms of accuracy and decision making. If Bradford had been lucky enough to play on a team with even average offensive talent the last few years I don't think he makes it past the first 15-20 picks of this draft, maybe even higher.
Hopefully Bradford will take some fashion tips from Von Miller.
sleepyjose03 said:
I felt like it was a bit early to take a shot on an Advanced Stat All Pro but I really didn't see too many young elite talents left on the defensive line. Being in the middle has forced me to take the back end of two talent pools so far.
I would have rather had RedOctober take Bradford.
RedOctober3829 said:
Bowman was at the top of my list of guys to take if you or DoDM grabbed Bradford. Having that ILB who can make plays sideline-to-sideline and cover just about any RB or TE is huge in today's game.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Bradford and Eli would have been dirty.
Too bad we can't have two QBs...
DaughtersofDougMirabelli said:
Ooops, dirty indeed.
I like the Wilkerson pick by the way. He might be even better as a penetrating, disruptive DT in a 4-3 if you're considering going in that direction.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
The double pocket passers would be the new thing after I kicked it off in 2013. Who's kneecaps do I have to break for voting against 2 QBs?
I'm definitely keeping my options open. There are more players out there for 4-3 schemes but Wilkerson had value giving me that flexibility to choose either one.
DaughtersofDougMirabelli said:
This is kind of how I feel. SMU and I both really liked Wilkerson, but PFF tends to have a few players that they really overrate, and then the guy crashes to earth the next year.
With that said, I do like Wilkerson. This pick can fluctuate anywhere between "great value pick" to "decent defensive lineman taken too early". Time will tell.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:I feel a little stupid taking a QB in this slot with only two teams ahead of me in the draft lacking signal callers. But this guy is so far ahead of everybody else on my board that I can't take the risk of Myt or Eck grabbing him. Let's take a step back and consider the career of Sam Bradford, QB. Going into the 2010 draft, Bradford was seen by many talent evaluators as the best QB prospect in years, an elite talent combining very high football IQ, great ball placement, advanced pocket presence, and more than adequate arm strength whose only drawback surrounded the shoulder injury he suffered at OU. Bradford gets drafted first overall by the Rams, a team so lacking in offensive talent that the previous year they scored 175 points, the second lowest total of any team since 2000. Bradford promptly wins OROY, despite being asked to throw the ball a bazillion times to a rotating group of about 12 guys, none of whom can run a pattern longer than 10 yards. The next year the wheels come off completely, as injuries to the offensive line are added to the talentless mix. Bradford gets absolutely destroyed and misses half the season due to injury. On the bright side, this brings the Steve Spagnuolo era to an end. In 2012, Jeff Fisher enters the picture, carting along a third different OC in as many years, and manages to actually stabilize the situation a little bit, with the help of greater OL continuity and the emergence of rookie WR Chris Givens. Despite still having relatively little talent on offense - the previous drafts and FA activity were geared toward rebuilding what is now a fairly scary looking defense - the Rams finish with a basically league-average passing attack due to some very encouraging play by Bradford, who completes 60% of his throws for 3700 yards and a 21/13 TD/INT ratio.
From the first day, Bradford has had everything you need to be an upper-tier QB in the league except a bunch of guys around him who can actually play football at an NFL level. But there is reason to be bullish on Bradford's situation going forward - the Rams finally have a little bit of receiving talent, they finally have some coaching stability, and their four 1st rounders in the next two drafts will probably be spent mainly on offense. That's a context in which he's going to have a very good shot at realizing his potential. If I'm drafting for the future and only thinking about young QBs, the only guys I clearly want more than Bradford are Luck, RGIII, Wilson, and Kaepernick. In my mind he's right there with Stafford and Newton, lacking their physical skills but surpassing both in terms of accuracy and decision making. If Bradford had been lucky enough to play on a team with even average offensive talent the last few years I don't think he makes it past the first 15-20 picks of this draft, maybe even higher.
Hopefully Bradford will take some fashion tips from Von Miller.
I like Bradford and, if you're really worried about your QB, this is a pretty good pick IMO.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Agreed. Though I haven't seen anyone rated that high, that young (on the defensive line) that has flamed out. Time will tell.
Since you've made this post we've had 20 picks in the last 24 hours. With some more picks tonight we're probably around 11 picks or so a day for the first 5 days.Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
I understood your concern at first and think you're post helped speed things up, but I think the biggest factor was starting unofficially one day and having an official start 2-3 days later.
Proxies and speed are key to keeping this thing from dragging, and will undoubtedly be important in the middle to late rounds.
Im loving this draft, even if you fuckers dont wanna let me have 2 QB's. I'm really looking forward to the later rounds.
Dollar said:
Thanks. I really liked the Rivers pick as well. IMO, what's changed in San Diego the last few years is the supporting cast, not the QB. Put Rivers on the Falcons and he probably throws for 4500 yards and 30+ TDs and gets taken in the Top 10.
I know QB pickings are slim at this point, but I've never been impressed by Bradford. His stats stink, too. He's never had much help in St. Louis, but he looks like the next Trent Edwards or Jason Campbell to me.