Red Sox Rumors - Just Kidding

chrisfont9

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Isn't the answer to the Lester question simply that the Cubs were later in time, fresher in his experience? He had life-changing experiences with two teams, one of which ended 8 years ago and the other two years ago. It's like when you were in your late 20s, did you hang out more with your high school friends or college ones? Yet another situation where people want to read a bunch of drama into a situation where it probably doesn't exist.
 

nvalvo

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I'm ready to be mad about how things turn out, but people should just let the goddamn offseason play out.
Yes, exactly! I don't think I'm some kind of Bloom booster! I just actually want to see what he does before I decide whether I like it or not, and I'm aware that a GM/PBOps' work doesn't take shape in a single offseason.

He's earned a degree of credibility with me in the rapidity of the farm system's improvement, which will be very important to what we're able to do going forward. We are developing and graduating more legitimate SP prospects than we've had since like 2006, which had been the biggest flaw in the organization until quite recently, and we've doing it without expending a ton of draft capital. We have some high-end position player prospects, too, although we've been one of the, if not the single most productive farm system in baseball on that side of things over the last few decades. So that is just continuing a broader player development trend after a bit of a hiccup.

The groundwork is in place, and now it's time to see what he can do in terms of turning over the big league team.
 

JM3

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Not really that into Kahnle's profile. I was trying to talk myself into it for a minute, though lol

I'll just assume we were bidding up the Yankees.
 

Daniel_Son

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This is to put it lightly. Aside from Speier and maybe one or two other exceptions, it's such an embarrassing media sphere in Boston, top to bottom. Even Chad Jennings' most recent piece in the Athletic was ridiculous.

"The Phillies on Monday valued Trea Turner at 11 years and $300 million, and — get this — actually signed the guy! The Mets? They got Justin Verlander. The Rangers? They added Jacob deGrom. The Red Sox, meanwhile, are still waiting to get Chris Martin's contract finalized." This is all along the way to, of course, justify "...pessimism after two last-place finishes in the past three years."

Blaming Bloom for a last-place finish in 2020 is like blaming Obama for the Great Recession.

I'm ready to be mad about how things turn out, but people should just let the goddamn offseason play out.
It really is ridiculous, isn't it? Boston has always been difficult but it seems like it's really ramped up these past two or three years. The constant complaining, the need for instant gratification. I mean, christ, even if it was "Bloom's fault" that we finished last place in 2020 and 2022, so what? He's quite clearly trying to build something. There's going to be some lean years. Every team goes through it. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that Henry & Co. are content to sit around .500 in perpetuity just because Bloom is running the show. That's the great thing about winning 4 World Series titles in 20 years - I can live with a few last place finishes if it means a better, more sustainable on-the-field product in the near-to-medium future.

The part that gets me is that the fans/writers who are moaning about not "making big signings" are the exact same group of fans who are going to be moaning about overpriced veterans (and likely losing young guys as a result) in 4-6 years.
 

JM3

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Not really that into Kahnle's profile. I was trying to talk myself into it for a minute, though lol

I'll just assume we were bidding up the Yankees.
I guess I should explain...

Kahnle is short, stocky & oft-injured since his last really good season - 2017.

In 2017 when he had that really good season with the White Sox & Yankees, he was throwing 63.4% fastballs with an average speed of 97.8 & he was basically similarly effective across his 3 main pitches (changeup 21.8%, slider 11.6%).

Since then, his fastball speed has slowed to 95.5 mph & he hasn't throw a slider since 2019.

Last year he basically became a 1 pitch pitcher - that pitch being a very effective 89.8 mph changeup which he threw on 76.4% of pitches to great results. The rest of his pitches were fastballs, where he got lit up.

Very small sample size alert - opponents had a .094 slg% against his changeup last year & 1.143 against his fastball...in tinier sample size news, in 2020 it was .000 against his changeup & 2.000 against his fastball. Even back in 2019, though, his last full season, opponents had a .203 slg% against his changeup & .553 against his fastball. 2018, the last year he threw more fastballs than changeups, it was .158 to .660.

I'm not sure where you build on that to get back to a guy who has a chance to play high leverage innings, especially in the playoffs. It's still a fine deal considering the market & maybe there's a chance he builds back some of his fastball now that he is further removed from injury, but yeah, would have had to talk myself into it if we signed him.

For comparison purposes, Chris Martin threw six different types of pitches last year. His 4-seem fastball, cutter & splitter were all rather effective. His sinker was ok, & his curveball & slider kind of sucked. The solution the Dodgers arrived upon when he got there seems obvious - but they cut down the curveball & slider in return for more fastball & cutter & let him focus on his most effective pitches & he had great results. That seems far more repeatable of an improvement to me than transitioning to only changeups, and should lead to a higher chance of playoff effectiveness because it's a harder range of pitches to adjust for. I also kind of love the never walking anyone thing...
 
Aug 31, 2006
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Not really that into Kahnle's profile. I was trying to talk myself into it for a minute, though lol

I'll just assume we were bidding up the Yankees.
He wouldn't have been at the top of my list, and RP is one segment of the market where there is a lot of supply right now; you can wait around and sign guys like Trevor May or David Robertson on one-year deals and probably get comparable performance to Kahnle.
 

TapeAndPosts

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It really is ridiculous, isn't it? Boston has always been difficult but it seems like it's really ramped up these past two or three years. The constant complaining, the need for instant gratification.
It does seem really extra these days. I think about this sometimes while lurking around and waiting for things to happen.

I don't know about you all, but in the Theo days I got used to the idea that we were the best-run team in baseball; I thought that only Oakland maybe had a better front office but they couldn't keep up with our resources. Most of the rest of the teams just didn't seem to "get" the newer approach to building a team and I expected our smart front office to outsmart other teams. I don't know how long it was true, if it every really was. But clearly in the meantime many other teams have pushed past us as far as being smart and well-run. This was masked a little by us having such a good team in 2018. Now we are basically trying to play catch up.

I do think the current front office is moving us in the right direction, but in the meantime it seems like we're struggling with feelings of Red Sox exceptionalism, like we ought to always be coming out on top and being surprised when we end up as just another team.
 

Benj4ever

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Nov 21, 2022
388
It really is ridiculous, isn't it? Boston has always been difficult but it seems like it's really ramped up these past two or three years. The constant complaining, the need for instant gratification. I mean, christ, even if it was "Bloom's fault" that we finished last place in 2020 and 2022, so what? He's quite clearly trying to build something. There's going to be some lean years. Every team goes through it. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that Henry & Co. are content to sit around .500 in perpetuity just because Bloom is running the show. That's the great thing about winning 4 World Series titles in 20 years - I can live with a few last place finishes if it means a better, more sustainable on-the-field product in the near-to-medium future.

The part that gets me is that the fans/writers who are moaning about not "making big signings" are the exact same group of fans who are going to be moaning about overpriced veterans (and likely losing young guys as a result) in 4-6 years.
You nailed it right on the head. This is the exact reason I've left Overthemonster: too much whining about playing .500 ball in perpetuity and not understanding that to build a sustainable on-the-field product you actually have to build a team! Whiny fans have become such a problem that the more reasonable folks are leaving the site in droves.
 

E5 Yaz

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I think fans can want to see a rebuild of the organization AND not want to see a major league team as incompetent as last season's group. That's not "whiny" and it doesn't show a lack of understanding about what the current management is trying to do.
But when the management that put that group together is on the verge of potentially losing yet another cornerstone of its respectability, then comes out and says they're going to add up to nine new players for next season, it's fine to be skeptical of what they're doing on the major league level.
On top of that, coming off last season and the current uncertainty about Bogaerts (and potentially Devers) to mock the skepticism of the media (and by proxy the fans) with that "Pessimism" wine/whine bottle at their media availability comes off as tone deaf. You want the media and fans not to be pessimistic ... give them a reason not to feel that way. Then you can mock away all you want.
And I say that as someone who's been consistently pro-Chaim.
 

Steve Dillard

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And Brutus (Boras) is an honorable man.

I find the agent posturing, either directly or through Heyman, to be laughable. That Speier references this is surprising.

I think the only issue is in what order Boras lets the dominos fall. I would eyeball that Xander will go first, and then Correa will have a clear field of only one supply (save for Darby) and multiple teams with demand, more desperate to chase the last guy standing. Correa can make good on the money he lost last year, maybe even from us for more than Chaim seems to want to pay Bogaerts.
 

joe dokes

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I think fans can want to see a rebuild of the organization AND not want to see a major league team as incompetent as last season's group. That's not "whiny" and it doesn't show a lack of understanding about what the current management is trying to do.
But when the management that put that group together is on the verge of potentially losing yet another cornerstone of its respectability, then comes out and says they're going to add up to nine new players for next season, it's fine to be skeptical of what they're doing on the major league level.
On top of that, coming off last season and the current uncertainty about Bogaerts (and potentially Devers) to mock the skepticism of the media (and by proxy the fans) with that "Pessimism" wine/whine bottle at their media availability comes off as tone deaf. You want the media and fans not to be pessimistic ... give them a reason not to feel that way. Then you can mock away all you want.
And I say that as someone who's been consistently pro-Chaim.
On the one hand you are right about skepticism. On the other hand, while the last place finish is very real, the "information" upon which the skepticism going forward is based is much much more likely to be unmitigated agenda-driving bullshit, which only has a tenuous relation to reality.
The great thing is that unlike many other situations, we will know where Bogaerts or Devers or anyone else goes, and we will likely know for how much. At that point, arguments about what the team should have done (or should not have done) will at least be based on something.

You want the media and fans not to be pessimistic ... give them a reason not to feel that way.
The owners have generally been good at this and so has the GM.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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And Brutus (Boras) is an honorable man.

I find the agent posturing, either directly or through Heyman, to be laughable. That Speier references this is surprising.

I think the only issue is in what order Boras lets the dominos fall. I would eyeball that Xander will go first, and then Correa will have a clear field of only one supply (save for Darby) and multiple teams with demand, more desperate to chase the last guy standing. Correa can make good on the money he lost last year, maybe even from us for more than Chaim seems to want to pay Bogaerts.
FWIW, Speier is only reporting what Boras is saying as he holds court with the media at the Winter Meetings. While clearly it's still agent posturing, as you put it, but it's a bit more legitimately news/tweet worthy than whatever Boras might be whispering in Heyman's ear in private settings.
 

VORP Speed

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It does seem really extra these days. I think about this sometimes while lurking around and waiting for things to happen.

I don't know about you all, but in the Theo days I got used to the idea that we were the best-run team in baseball; I thought that only Oakland maybe had a better front office but they couldn't keep up with our resources. Most of the rest of the teams just didn't seem to "get" the newer approach to building a team and I expected our smart front office to outsmart other teams. I don't know how long it was true, if it every really was. But clearly in the meantime many other teams have pushed past us as far as being smart and well-run. This was masked a little by us having such a good team in 2018. Now we are basically trying to play catch up.

I do think the current front office is moving us in the right direction, but in the meantime it seems like we're struggling with feelings of Red Sox exceptionalism, like we ought to always be coming out on top and being surprised when we end up as just another team.
The Sox were in the vanguard of analytics driven player selection, but then fell behind the curve in analytics driven player development
 

ehaz

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Plenty of other relievers still available. I like Chafin and Lugo, but they might get a lot more after seeing that Kahnle deal.

The Closers
- Taylor Rogers LHP (MLBTR proj 3/$30M): was hit hard last season, but lefty closer with elite K%/BB%/GB%. 2.71 FIP over last 5 seasons. Would be a more expensive signing, but if you're right about that last year being an aberration, you're probably getting him at a significant discount.

- Kenley Jansen RHP (MLBTR proj 2/$26M): older (35) and no longer at his insane peak, but still effective and relatively consistent. 3.4 FIP over last 5 seasons. Due to age, you could probably get him on a one or two year deal, throw him in the closer role he's comfortable in, and save Schreiber and Houck for the highest leverage innings.

Established Veterans
- Andrew Chafin LHP (MLBTR proj 2/$18M): was a very reliable set-up guy in Arizona for most of his career, but coming off the best stretch of his career now at age 32. 2.29 ERA (3.02 FIP) over his last ~130 IP with excellent K%/GB% peripherals.

- Adam Ottavino RHP (MLBTR proj 2/$14M): our old (37) friend is fresh off one of his best seasons. 2.02 ERA (2.85 FIP) but most impressively, the lowest BB% and best K-BB% of his career. We know the issues: struggles with control, vulnerable to lefties. But maybe he's found something with his control.

- David Robertson RHP (MLBTR proj 2/$16M): our old (37) nemesis completed his MLB comeback this year with a vintage season. Lots of walks, lots of Ks. While his FIP (3.58) was over a run higher than his ERA (2.40), his cutter averaged over 93 MPH, which is among the highest of his career. If he can get last year's ugly BB% down in line with his career numbers, no reason to think he can't repeat last year's performance.

- Seth Lugo RHP: Veteran (32) swing guy with starting experience and a solid track record. Limits walks, good K rates, has a number of pitches and is a high spin-rate guy. Sox are reportedly high on Lugo, but he has plenty of suitors.

Potentially Interesting
- Matt Moore LHP: Former crown jewel of the Rays farm system. Transitioned to the bullpen with disastrous results in 2021 (6.29 ERA in 70 IP) but was money last season for the Rangers 1.95 ERA/2.98 FIP). Missed bats but still walked too many guys. Not a long track record of success.

- Michael Fulmer RHP: Another former top starting prospect. Won AL ROY in 2016 as a starter and followed up in 2017 with an All Star appearance. Since then, injuries and ineffectiveness. In 2021, Detroit moved him to the bullpen where he had great results. That continued in 2022, but to a lesser extent as his K% dropped slightly and he walked too many guys.
 

Benj4ever

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Nov 21, 2022
388
On the one hand you are right about skepticism. On the other hand, while the last place finish is very real, the "information" upon which the skepticism going forward is based is much much more likely to be unmitigated agenda-driving bullshit, which only has a tenuous relation to reality.
The great thing is that unlike many other situations, we will know where Bogaerts or Devers or anyone else goes, and we will likely know for how much. At that point, arguments about what the team should have done (or should not have done) will at least be based on something.


The owners have generally been good at this and so has the GM.
The Sox should not have been as mediocre - they weren't bad - as they were last year. Injuries to the pitching staff - 4 of 5 starters down at the same time - were devastating. Plus, if the Orioles hadn't managed to return from the scrap heap, we would not have been in last place in 2022, anyway. As was posted earlier, while you're building a team, you're going to have years where you're approximately .500. It's all part of the process.
 

RedOctober3829

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Isn't this backwards? How would the Sox let or not let another team match them?
Some teams will put an offer out to a free agent and say either take the deal now or lose it if you try to shop this around. This is what happened with Jacob deGrom. According to WFAN's Boomer Esiason this morning, the Rangers offered him the 5/185 and said if you shop this back to the Mets it's off the table.
 

glennhoffmania

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Some teams will put an offer out to a free agent and say either take the deal now or lose it if you try to shop this around. This is what happened with Jacob deGrom. According to WFAN's Boomer Esiason this morning, the Rangers offered him the 5/185 and said if you shop this back to the Mets it's off the table.
Understood, but the quote was from Boras, not Bloom. If the question is whether the Sox would let him shop the offer it doesn't matter what Boras thinks, and vice versa.
 

Daniel_Son

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I think fans can want to see a rebuild of the organization AND not want to see a major league team as incompetent as last season's group. That's not "whiny" and it doesn't show a lack of understanding about what the current management is trying to do.
But when the management that put that group together is on the verge of potentially losing yet another cornerstone of its respectability, then comes out and says they're going to add up to nine new players for next season, it's fine to be skeptical of what they're doing on the major league level.
On top of that, coming off last season and the current uncertainty about Bogaerts (and potentially Devers) to mock the skepticism of the media (and by proxy the fans) with that "Pessimism" wine/whine bottle at their media availability comes off as tone deaf. You want the media and fans not to be pessimistic ... give them a reason not to feel that way. Then you can mock away all you want.
And I say that as someone who's been consistently pro-Chaim.
Skepticism is completely fine, and to be sure, I'm not trying to be the great arbiter of Red Sox fandom in 2023. Anyone can root, root, root for the home team in any manner they see fit. And I think we can all agree that it wasn't much fun watching the 2022 Red Sox and we all want a better ballclub in 2023 and beyond.

What I do take issue with is the media (and by proxy, some fans) insisting that 1. we're entitled to any and all free agents, and 2. that not signing them means that our front office is not interested in winning. And I'm not saying that you're doing that specifically, @E5 Yaz - but I am seeing a lot of impatience in these threads, and it's obnoxious. It's December 6 - if they're still standing pat come spring training, then yeah, that's probably an issue. We've already added 2 pretty nice bullpen pieces. Let's see what else Bloom has up his sleeve before we start writing off ownership.
 

chrisfont9

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Understood, but the quote was from Boras, not Bloom. If the question is whether the Sox would let him shop the offer it doesn't matter what Boras thinks, and vice versa.
Right. In the end it's up to Bogaerts to say "let's check back in on Boston" or not. Boras does what his client tells him to do and has no power that he doesn't derive from the clients he represents.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Lord forbid we return to the dark times of 2007 to 2013 when it was SIX years between titles! We already are 4 years in!
I'm super patient after all the success of the last 20 years but the fallow period after '07 included a few really great years falling just short. Then there was the Chicken and Beer season and the Valentine year and the fan base was pretty much losing it's fucking mind. Not many people were thrilled with the direction of the team or it's offseason before '13 in which it looked like Cherington was just putting a "make it look like we're competitive" club together. The rotation was iffy... Lester was the ace but wasn't quite in the same category as other top aces. Buchholz was always injured and couldn't be consistent. Lackey was loathed across New England. Ortiz was getting old. Lots of other issues. Who was their "closer"!?!?!?
But '13 WS victory shut up the fans for two more years it seemed despite some horrendous signings and trades. We're at that point again IMO.... the Sox need to get a winning team together (maybe not a full WS victory but a deep playoff run for a few years in a row) soon. I don't know if '23 is in line for that or not despite the public statements by Bloom.
 

DJnVa

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You also have to read EXACTLY what he said. Maybe they won't let the Sox "match" an offer and stay. That's "market preference". That does not say they won't bring an offer to Sox and see if they will beat it.
 

EvilEmpire

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Boras doesn't want Boston to sit back and wait and would prefer to have them actively bidding. So of course he is going to say they don't have an obligation to let them match*. But yeah, if Bogaerts wants him to, he will.

I don't think that quote means a damned thing.

*Assuming that is what the quote actually means. Seems a bit garbled.
 

Sausage in Section 17

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Boras doesn't want Boston to sit back and wait and would prefer to have them actively bidding. So of course he is going to say they don't have an obligation to let them match*. But yeah, if Bogaerts wants him to, he will.

I don't think that quote means a damned thing.

*Assuming that is what the quote actually means. Seems a bit garbled.
Exactly. Boras will do whatever he can extract the most money for his client. Not even a crappy agent would ever say publicly, "we will give x team a chance to match", even if the player had directed them to do this. That would scare away offers, and drive down the price for the client who wants to stay at home. It's also in Boras/Xander's interest to tell everyone they are still engaged w/ Boston, even if they think Boston doesn't have the best offer, again to simply drive up interest in the player and the price.

It's the one time of year when players and agents get to scare teams/fanbases with the possibility of leaving, and this thread is an example of the kind of hand wringing and anxiety this creates.
 

ehaz

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The Sox should not have been as mediocre - they weren't bad - as they were last year. Injuries to the pitching staff - 4 of 5 starters down at the same time - were devastating. Plus, if the Orioles hadn't managed to return from the scrap heap, we would not have been in last place in 2022, anyway. As was posted earlier, while you're building a team, you're going to have years where you're approximately .500. It's all part of the process.
This is true but I'd argue that the Sox's pitching staff, as constructed, probably carrier greater injury risks than most. Between veterans with long and/or recent injury histories and younger guys with little experience starting at the MLB level, it was partly a disaster waiting to happen. If both Eovaldi and Wacha leave without serious replacements, 2023 could be even worse. Right now you have:

1. Chris Sale. 34 years old. Tommy John surgery, broken fingers, COVID, etc. have limited him to less than 50 innings over the past three seasons combined.
2. Nick Pivetta. Not very good, but here is your one dependable innings eater.
3. Garrett Whitlock. Great upside, but he lasted all of 40 innings before getting hurt and returning to the bullpen. He has not crossed the 80 innings threshold since Single A ball in 2018. Going from ~75 IP to ~150+ is a tremendous ask and injury risk.
4. James Paxton. See Sale, Chris. But older and worse. Only ~21 IP since the start of 2020.
5. Brayan Bello. Easier to project than Whitlock for ~150 IP since he just threw 153 innings in 2022 (combined MLB and MiLB) after throwing ~90 innings in 2021. But he's a rookie so best to keep expectations in check.
6. Tanner Houck. Yet to throw more than 69 IP in an MLB season. Unclear if organization even sees him as a starter--probably more of an opener/3-4 inning guy.

I don't know if you can realistic expect anything from Sale and Paxton based on their injury histories. So you've really just got Pivetta, a rookie, and some young guys with nice upside that you're transitioning from the bullpen. Obviously, they're going to sign a guy or two and/or bring back Eovaldi. But still--you're likely seeing way too many innings from the Kutter Crawford/Winckowski/Seabold crew than you'd like even if you're just aiming to be in the mix. The rotation simply isn't competitive for mid-tier FAs like 37 year old Corey Kluber to make a substantive difference.
 

MuellerToldHisTale

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Depends on the number of years, no?
Does it? Assuming the contract isn't something totally unconventional, it sounds like a solid value if Turner landed 11/300 with a full NT clause. The talk has been that X would land a contract in roughly the 8 year range - I'd take him all day at 8/200 with the market being what it is.
 

nvalvo

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This is true but I'd argue that the Sox's pitching staff, as constructed, probably carrier greater injury risks than most. Between veterans with long and/or recent injury histories and younger guys with little experience starting at the MLB level, it was partly a disaster waiting to happen. If both Eovaldi and Wacha leave without serious replacements, 2023 could be even worse. Right now you have:

1. Chris Sale. 34 years old. Tommy John surgery, broken fingers, COVID, etc. have limited him to less than 50 innings over the past three seasons combined.
2. Nick Pivetta. Not very good, but here is your one dependable innings eater.
3. Garrett Whitlock. Great upside, but he lasted all of 40 innings before getting hurt and returning to the bullpen. He has not crossed the 80 innings threshold since Single A ball in 2018. Going from ~75 IP to ~150+ is a tremendous ask and injury risk.
4. James Paxton. See Sale, Chris. But older and worse. Only ~21 IP since the start of 2020.
5. Brayan Bello. Easier to project than Whitlock for ~150 IP since he just threw 153 innings in 2022 (combined MLB and MiLB) after throwing ~90 innings in 2021. But he's a rookie so best to keep expectations in check.
6. Tanner Houck. Yet to throw more than 69 IP in an MLB season. Unclear if organization even sees him as a starter--probably more of an opener/3-4 inning guy.

I don't know if you can realistic expect anything from Sale and Paxton based on their injury histories. So you've really just got Pivetta, a rookie, and some young guys with nice upside that you're transitioning from the bullpen. Obviously, they're going to sign a guy or two and/or bring back Eovaldi. But still--you're likely seeing way too many innings from the Kutter Crawford/Winckowski/Seabold crew than you'd like even if you're just aiming to be in the mix. The rotation simply isn't competitive for mid-tier FAs like 37 year old Corey Kluber to make a substantive difference.
You'd have to think that Tanner Houck is likely to get traded, right? He's between roles, and his personal conduct put the team in a lurch last season. Not quite Clevinger levels of effing over his teammates, but certainly not the kind of team-first attitude and dedication one would like to see.

Dealing him to a team that sees him as a starter makes a ton of sense, and probably could bring back a pretty interesting return.

Does it? Assuming the contract isn't something totally unconventional, it sounds like a solid value if Turner landed 11/300 with a full NT clause. The talk has been that X would land a contract in roughly the 8 year range - I'd take him all day at 8/200 with the market being what it is.
I think I said my top offer would be 6/$180m, but 8/$200m doesn't really seem much more expensive to me. Lower AAV, longer deal, similar money. So maybe I'm talking myself into 8/$200.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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What I do take issue with is the media (and by proxy, some fans) insisting that 1. we're entitled to any and all free agents, and 2. that not signing them means that our front office is not interested in winning. And I'm not saying that you're doing that specifically, @E5 Yaz - but I am seeing a lot of impatience in these threads, and it's obnoxious. It's December 6 - if they're still standing pat come spring training, then yeah, that's probably an issue. We've already added 2 pretty nice bullpen pieces. Let's see what else Bloom has up his sleeve before we start writing off ownership.
Why are you posting then? Wait until the day before Spring Training starts and write your measured post season take then.

The reason why people are posting on a message board about the Red Sox on December 6 is because they're reacting to what is happening at that particular minute. It's the same reason why people post on Game Threads in the third inning. Blowing off steaming, wondering about the path that the Front Office is taking, freaking out about every rumor is what fans have done since the Hot Stove began 120+ years ago. Either you wade into it, or don't. But tsk-tsking people about "being obnoxious" is dumb. It doesn't make you a better or smarter fan, the thread is titled "Red Sox Rumors" and I presume that you can read. If you don't want to read about reactions from fans on rumors, you literally don't have to. Create another thread called, "Sober thoughts for a Winter's Day" and post to your heart's delight there.

Posters have given tons of reasons why they are concerned about the makeup of the 2023 Boston Red Sox. You don't buy it, which is fine. We all know that a lot of those concerns aren't going to be worth a nickle on February 13--or maybe even December 13. Who cares. Either enjoy it for what it's worth, this thread will be a memory by March. It's baseball, it's not life-and-death.
 

Daniel_Son

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2021
1,807
San Diego
Why are you posting then? Wait until the day before Spring Training starts and write your measured post season take then.

The reason why people are posting on a message board about the Red Sox on December 6 is because they're reacting to what is happening at that particular minute. It's the same reason why people post on Game Threads in the third inning. Blowing off steaming, wondering about the path that the Front Office is taking, freaking out about every rumor is what fans have done since the Hot Stove began 120+ years ago. Either you wade into it, or don't. But tsk-tsking people about "being obnoxious" is dumb. It doesn't make you a better or smarter fan, the thread is titled "Red Sox Rumors" and I presume that you can read. If you don't want to read about reactions from fans on rumors, you literally don't have to. Create another thread called, "Sober thoughts for a Winter's Day" and post to your heart's delight there.

Posters have given tons of reasons why they are concerned about the makeup of the 2023 Boston Red Sox. You don't buy it, which is fine. We all know that a lot of those concerns aren't going to be worth a nickle on February 13--or maybe even December 13. Who cares. Either enjoy it for what it's worth, this thread will be a memory by March. It's baseball, it's not life-and-death.
I didn't mean to imply that I'm a better or a smarter fan. I'm sorry if my thoughts came off that way. I know there are many people on this board who are a hell of a lot smarter than I am.

The thing that bothers me is that it's only December 6 and yet we've got people on here and in the media using Bloom's relative inaction as proof that ownership isn't committed to winning in 2023. All I'm saying is that we should wait a little longer before making that assessment. I don't think any of the contracts that have been tendered are a great fit for the 2023 Red Sox. I'd like to see a few more chips fall first.

Ultimately, you're probably right - I should refrain from sharing these thoughts in a rumors thread. No disrespect intended.
 

MuellerToldHisTale

New Member
Oct 29, 2018
395
New Jersey
It really is ridiculous, isn't it? Boston has always been difficult but it seems like it's really ramped up these past two or three years. The constant complaining, the need for instant gratification. I mean, christ, even if it was "Bloom's fault" that we finished last place in 2020 and 2022, so what? He's quite clearly trying to build something. There's going to be some lean years. Every team goes through it. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that Henry & Co. are content to sit around .500 in perpetuity just because Bloom is running the show. That's the great thing about winning 4 World Series titles in 20 years - I can live with a few last place finishes if it means a better, more sustainable on-the-field product in the near-to-medium future.

The part that gets me is that the fans/writers who are moaning about not "making big signings" are the exact same group of fans who are going to be moaning about overpriced veterans (and likely losing young guys as a result) in 4-6 years.
Agree with all of this, but I'm afraid it's a phenomenon that's not unique to the Boston fanbase. I live in NJ, and the crying of MFY fans these past few years has been completely off the charts. Maybe "crying" doesn't fully capture it - it's more of a sensitivity to swings, both high and low. When things are good, they are the best, the players are wonderful, etc. When things go wrong, everything is some massive organizational failure, or players aren't "playing with heart", or some other such nonsense. I have NYY fan friends who were certain that Boone and possibly Cashman would get the axe this offseason due to their obvious ineptitude. This is after a 99 win season that ended with an ALCS loss to the eventual WS winners.

I'm guessing we'd see similar behavior within other fanbases if we had more exposure to them, and beyond sports, we've certainly seen our share of recent incidents where people act horrifically when things don't go their way. I just think that the internet has broken everyone's brains, and there's no going back.

On that note, resign X or run 'em all out of town :cool:


Edit - having read subsequent posts, let me know if this is not the place for this. Not looking to derail things.
 

NickEsasky

Please Hammer, Don't Hurt 'Em
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 24, 2001
9,300
I'm super patient after all the success of the last 20 years but the fallow period after '07 included a few really great years falling just short. Then there was the Chicken and Beer season and the Valentine year and the fan base was pretty much losing it's fucking mind. Not many people were thrilled with the direction of the team or it's offseason before '13 in which it looked like Cherington was just putting a "make it look like we're competitive" club together. The rotation was iffy... Lester was the ace but wasn't quite in the same category as other top aces. Buchholz was always injured and couldn't be consistent. Lackey was loathed across New England. Ortiz was getting old. Lots of other issues. Who was their "closer"!?!?!?
But '13 WS victory shut up the fans for two more years it seemed despite some horrendous signings and trades. We're at that point again IMO.... the Sox need to get a winning team together (maybe not a full WS victory but a deep playoff run for a few years in a row) soon. I don't know if '23 is in line for that or not despite the public statements by Bloom.
This is completely fair but a fair amount of us spent last off-season convinced Chaim wasn’t going to start the year with JBJ in RF and counting on question marks at 1B too but he did. Happy and hopeful to be proven wrong this off-season, but on some level there is precedent.
 

ehaz

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2007
4,993
You'd have to think that Tanner Houck is likely to get traded, right? He's between roles, and his personal conduct put the team in a lurch last season. Not quite Clevinger levels of effing over his teammates, but certainly not the kind of team-first attitude and dedication one would like to see.

Dealing him to a team that sees him as a starter makes a ton of sense, and probably could bring back a pretty interesting return.
If I were Chaim, Houck and Rafaela are the pieces I'd be most willing to package in a trade for a cost-controllable player like Murphy or Reynolds. Houck's posted excellent results in albeit limited innings, and it's still early enough that a team like OAK could really view him as a starter. With Rafaela, you have the ability to capitalize on a consensus top 100 prospect at potentially his maximum value. Not saying it's the exact same situation or that they are better/worse prospects, but Duran and Yorke illustrate the downside of hoarding every breakout guy. I get that Rafaela potentially fills a position of need as early as 2024, but if you can fill a similar position of need in the lineup or rotation that's under contract for 2 to 3 years without trading Casas/Bello/Mayer that's something to really consider.