Red Sox Spring training thread

[Plympton91]

That Koni had a back injury late last year is the best baseball news of the offseason.

Betts has gained 25 pounds in 4 years over his age 18 to 22 seasons, and has very low body fat percentages. This is entirely unremarkable news.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I think that is Spanx that is hanging out of his shirt.

It looks almost like a tail. I think it's some sort of animal he's got under there.

Maybe he's not a bear. Maybe he's a marsupial.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Pablo Sandoval will be DH-ing for KC or Houston by the time the 2016 season kicks in and the Sox will have to subsidize his way.  I thought he would use his newfound wealth to buy some food but he outdid himself.  This board will be completely against him come May.

 

[SydneySox]

Well. We will be with that attitude.

 

[Rasputin]

Pablo Sandoval will be DH-ing for KC or Houston by the time the 2016 season kicks in and the Sox will have to subsidize his way.  I thought he would use his newfound wealth to buy some food but he outdid himself.  This board will be completely against him come May.

He's gonna have to tank horrifically for the Sox to give up on him after one year when all they have behind him is Garin Cecchini.

I don't really see that happening.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Are you guys for real? 
 
Betts weight was 156 lbs when he was drafted in 2011. No great stretch that he now weighs 181 lbs.

NObody is accusing him of juicing. We just said he didn't but on 25 pounds of muscle in the last few months.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

He's gonna have to tank horrifically for the Sox to give up on him after one year when all they have behind him is Garin Cecchini.

I don't really see that happening.

 
Well, if you were honest with yourself you would admit that those crimson colored glasses you wear give you blind spots and always have back to the usenet days.  That said, it happens to most of us around here with the Sox or the other hometown teams.
 
Like some of the other posters here, I have watched this guy's career very closely and I will reiterate what some of us thought at the time of the signing - Pablo Sandoval is a very bad fit in Boston.  He may well hit decently but his blemishes are going to make this guy very polarizing very quickly.  
 
Showing up in spring training, after signing a mega-contract, looking like he went on the Buttery Jack diet during the offseason is just the start.  His streaky hitting and penchant for expanding the zone beyond the space-time continuum will only add to the negative feedback.  I like Pablo Sandoval and I like the Red Sox so I hope I am wrong.  However I will stand by my view that this ends badly for both sides.

 

[judyb]

Maybe I jumped the gun. I was under the impression last season was listed at 156.

The same thing happened with Doubront, except it was even more obvious because he would have looked like a twig at his listed weight at the time. They just don't seem to update weight between 1st pro signing and MLB debut season.

 

[Pozo the Clown]

You know who else said you have to get used to things?
The Nazis.
 
That's who.

 
I'm all for irreverence, but this is so fuckin' wrong.on soooo many levels!!!

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

Pablo looks like he just came in from shoveling five feet of nachos.

 

[MikeM]

In all fairness, i doubt Ben signed Sandavol expecting anything different from a guy who's spent his whole career struggling with his weight...*before* he got the big FA payday. DBMH is right that this is just the tip of the iceberg though. Especially from the less hardcore fans/media who are not familiar enough with him to have already fully digested what's coming, and/or won't be as easily sold on the surface concept that his defense plus some WAR statistic make him worth the $20m/per Ben paid.  
 
Luckily though you have to guess he's used to that type of scrutiny over his weight by now, and smart enough to know that if he hits (notably better then the line he put up last year) people will stop caring about that stuff sooner rather then latter. 

 

[gaelgirl]

Pablo Sandoval can be good while hefty. But there's a thin line between hefty-and-hooray and hefty-and-horrible. He looks to be about where he was in October (or a little bit heavier), which is a very bad sign. He has always gained weight through the season and lost most of it in the offseason. Contrary to popular memory, Sandoval was not always this size. He's a streaky skinny.
 
Yes, he was awful at the start of last season, when he was the fittest. He was also trying something different, namely not swinging at everything and being more selective in his pitches. When he just went back to his free-swinging self, his old numbers came back. Personally, I don't think it was because of a correlation between being heavier giving him more ability. And all the writers saying his weight has no impact on his play clearly don't remember the end of 2010 or 2013, when Sandoval couldn't field, couldn't run, couldn't hit and thus couldn't keep his full-time job.  
 
When he gets to be about 270, that's a very bad sign. He reported to Spring Training last year somewhere around 250 pounds. Here's a story from the San Jose Mercury News about how his weight loss was good for his game: http://www.mercurynews.com/giants/ci_26316065/pablo-sandovals-defense-no-longer-strikes-fear-into. That was from August last season, and they talked of "extra padding" added during the course of the season (so, probably 255-260). This is how he looked:
 

 

[Spacemans Bong]

GG said most of what I wanted to say, but I just wanted to really push forward the point that the narrative (which Wendy Thurm advocates for on Page 1 in Natty's SF sportswriter kibitz) that it doesn't matter how fat Panda is, he hits, is wrong.
 
Panda's two best seasons in the majors were 2009 and 2011. 2009 he was not a full-time third baseman, having caught his last games in the majors that year, and he was thinner and younger. 2011 was the offseason of the famous Camp Panda, where he lost a lot of weight after a subpar 2010 that saw him sitting on the bench when the Giants won the World Series. 
 
It doesn't mean he'll hit 260/310/390 this season, but I think the odds of that happening just went up. 

 

[HomeRunBaker]

1) I hated this overpay from Day One. Surprised Ben signed him.

2) You guys are seriously surprised he's fat? Shocked at what your expectations were.

 

[InsideTheParker]

OK, SF fans, I'll expect the worst. Happy now? I'm sitting here with -9 degrees outside and looking for a little ray of sunshine, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo. The Panda is so fat that my whole summer and fall will suck.  Goody.

 

[ivanvamp]

GG said most of what I wanted to say, but I just wanted to really push forward the point that the narrative (which Wendy Thurm advocates for on Page 1 in Natty's SF sportswriter kibitz) that it doesn't matter how fat Panda is, he hits, is wrong.
 
Panda's two best seasons in the majors were 2009 and 2011. 2009 he was not a full-time third baseman, having caught his last games in the majors that year, and he was thinner and younger. 2011 was the offseason of the famous Camp Panda, where he lost a lot of weight after a subpar 2010 that saw him sitting on the bench when the Giants won the World Series. 
 
It doesn't mean he'll hit 260/310/390 this season, but I think the odds of that happening just went up. 

 
I think there will be zero Red Sox fans unhappy with his weight *if he hits and plays good defense*.  If that happens, he'll just be our lovable big fat panda.  If, however, he plays poorly (or even just less good than we hoped), then his weight will become a major issue.
 
It wouldn't shock me if he plays poorly in 2015, gets huge negative feedback, and then gets himself in much better shape and puts up a solid campaign in 2016.  

 

[joe dokes]

It looks almost like a tail. I think it's some sort of animal he's got under there.

Maybe he's not a bear. Maybe he's a marsupial.

I think its a gravy drain.
 
 

NObody is accusing him of juicing. We just said he didn't but on 25 pounds of muscle in the last few months.
 

 
The whole "he put on 'x' pounds OF MUSCLE" is a stupid narrative.  When a player works out all winter AND gains weight, both the player and your average reporter-using-shorthand will say he put on 'x' "pounds of muscle."  It is unlikely that every single ounce of that weight gain is "muscle." As with JBJ and his "beast mode" comment, I think we have to stop taking stuff so literally.  And looking good in a tight t-shirt is no indication of anything.
 

 

I think there will be zero Red Sox fans unhappy with his weight *if he hits and plays good defense*. If that happens, he'll just be our lovable big fat panda. If, however, he plays poorly (or even just less good than we hoped), then his weight will become a major issue.
 

 
How is that any different from any other player.  In Boston (not exlusively) players can't just suck.  JD Drew didn't just "suck," HE DIDNT CARE.  Sandoval can't just suck, "HE SUCKS BECAUSE HE'S FAT."  Buchholz can't just suck, "HE SUCKS BECAUSE HE'S MENTALLY WEAK." That's not to say that there aren't ancillary causes of suckdom (age, injury, etc).  But sometimes sucking is just sucking. 

 

[TheoShmeo]

It's February 18.  Assuming that Panda needs to shed a few pounds, he's got some time in Florida to get that done, and it wasn't long ago that many players used Spring Training as a time to get in shape.  True, I'd prefer that more Sox went the off season training route (like Pedroia and apparently Boegarts this year, to name a few) but failing that, there are no games that count for about a month and a half. 

 

[C4CRVT]

For shame, people. Dude shows up early for camp, says all the right things, apparently has been working on the weakness in his game (hitting righty) and it's about the belly which he's had for almost his entire career? He gave up money to come here and play with Papi. He's got 6 weeks go get in game shape.
 
Relax people. I'm pumped for this season.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

It's February 18.  Assuming that Panda needs to shed a few pounds, he's got some time in Florida to get that done, and it wasn't long ago that many players used Spring Training as a time to get in shape.  True, I'd prefer that more Sox went the off season training route (like Pedroia and apparently Boegarts this year, to name a few) but failing that, there are no games that count for about a month and a half. 

 
The problem is that when he's lost weight, he's typically shed it during the offseason. Historically he gains weight while playing, which is pretty impressive, when you think about it.

 

[mr_smith02]

Pablo looks like he just came in from shoveling five feet of nachos.

I wonder if he called dibs on his spot after shoveling.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

It was Fat Tuesday yesterday.  Calm down, he's just playing the part.

 

[Al Zarilla]

It's February 18.  Assuming that Panda needs to shed a few pounds, he's got some time in Florida to get that done, and it wasn't long ago that many players used Spring Training as a time to get in shape.  True, I'd prefer that more Sox went the off season training route (like Pedroia and apparently Boegarts this year, to name a few) but failing that, there are no games that count for about a month and a half. 

You beat me to it. Seems to me a couple of his years with the Giants he got to ST in Arizona sloppier than he finished the previous year, but then he took off some pounds during ST. I mean it was really noticeable from early March in AZ to opening day. I also would prefer a guy come into ST in as good shape as he left in September/October, but that's Pablo.

 

[kieckeredinthehead]

Guys I hate to break it to you, but if Sandoval plays poorly Boston fans are going to hate him. The only way Boston fans like him is if he plays well. It's a really tough situation, not sure why Ben would roll the dice like this.

 

[soxhop411]

Guys I hate to break it to you, but if Sandoval plays poorly Boston fans are going to hate him. The only way Boston fans like him is if he plays well. It's a really tough situation, not sure why Ben would roll the dice like this.

Isn't that the case with any big ticket FA signing?

 

[Darnell's Son]

Isn't that the case with any big ticket FA signing?

That would be the joke.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

I don't think it's unusual at all for a player with weight problems to put on weight during the season, when he works out less and eats hotel food more. 
 
Like others, I wish he looked leaner now, having had a few months to get into shape, but he could still shed 5-10 pounds over the next 6 weeks if he wants to.  It IS a good sign that he reported early.

 

[YTF]

He could shit 5-10 pounds over the next 6 weeks. It's the next 20 pounds and 8 months that I'm concerned about.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 

Guys I hate to break it to you, but if Sandoval plays poorly Boston fans are going to hate him. The only way Boston fans like him is if he plays well. It's a really tough situation, not sure why Ben would roll the dice like this.

 

Isn't that the case with any big ticket FA signing?
 

Only big ticket FA guy I can recall escaping the ire of Sox fans when he got off to a slow/poor start was, strangely enough, Carl Crawford.  But even that honeymoon didn't last long.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

.... and it wasn't long ago that many players used Spring Training as a time to get in shape.  ...

 
Yes, the same era where some players smoked cigarettes in the dugout. 

 

[TheoShmeo]

Only big ticket FA guy I can recall escaping the ire of Sox fans when he got off to a slow/poor start was, strangely enough, Carl Crawford.  But even that honeymoon didn't last long.

Or so Carl has told us.  I still don't recall the fans or media reacting negatively to him in any perceptible way.
 
I think that Panda will get some rope in Boston, too.  Hasn't the CHB been ripping Boston fans for being TOO nice in recent years?  Not tough enough or quick enough to get mad?
 
Sandoval seems likable enough to me and I don't remember many guys -- in recent times -- getting ripped absent a perception that the player in question wasn't trying.  Is being overweight equal to that? 
 
Added "in recent times"....

 

[JimD]

The Red Sox finished in last place in 2014, so they're going to the World Series this year.  The Panda loves the World Series.  It's all good.

 

[C4CRVT]

When does the prediction thread start? Is it too soon?

 

[Rasputin]

 
Well, if you were honest with yourself you would admit that those crimson colored glasses you wear give you blind spots and always have back to the usenet days.  That said, it happens to most of us around here with the Sox or the other hometown teams.
 
Like some of the other posters here, I have watched this guy's career very closely and I will reiterate what some of us thought at the time of the signing - Pablo Sandoval is a very bad fit in Boston.  He may well hit decently but his blemishes are going to make this guy very polarizing very quickly.  
 
Showing up in spring training, after signing a mega-contract, looking like he went on the Buttery Jack diet during the offseason is just the start.  His streaky hitting and penchant for expanding the zone beyond the space-time continuum will only add to the negative feedback.  I like Pablo Sandoval and I like the Red Sox so I hope I am wrong.  However I will stand by my view that this ends badly for both sides.

There's a lot of difference between ending badly and him being so bad that it end before the start of 2016.

You want to tell me his last couple years are terribad, I think that's fairly likely. You want to tell me were wishing the Sox had signed Headly, I think that's fairly likely too.

I just think it's a big stretch to think it's going to happen before 2016.

 

[jimbobim]

 
Well, if you were honest with yourself you would admit that those crimson colored glasses you wear give you blind spots and always have back to the usenet days.  That said, it happens to most of us around here with the Sox or the other hometown teams.
 
Like some of the other posters here, I have watched this guy's career very closely and I will reiterate what some of us thought at the time of the signing - Pablo Sandoval is a very bad fit in Boston.  He may well hit decently but his blemishes are going to make this guy very polarizing very quickly.  
 
Showing up in spring training, after signing a mega-contract, looking like he went on the Buttery Jack diet during the offseason is just the start.  His streaky hitting and penchant for expanding the zone beyond the space-time continuum will only add to the negative feedback.  I like Pablo Sandoval and I like the Red Sox so I hope I am wrong.  However I will stand by my view that this ends badly for both sides.

For someone who didn't like the fit from the first rumors that started connecting the two it is very easy and lazy to look at one side view picture and say "Boom I'm right what a bum for not showing up like he did to SF Giants camp last year" 
 
OTOH and not through rose tinted glasses He's incredibly early to camp  and worked on RH hitting which clearly needs to improve. Personally the fit couldn't be better in my eyes in terms of needing a competent 3b which has been a gaping hole since Youk broke down. Also it's not like all the negative media attention will be on him thanks to Hanley's transition and of course the ace less pitching staff.
 
Also it should be and has been noted he showed up in "best shape of his life" last spring and was terrible till he gained some weight back.  Positive vibes dammit spring training hasn't even officially begun yet. 

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Ok all you data driven naysayers. Please provide evidence that there's a relationship between weight (body mass) and ability in baseball. Don't hesitate to use real life examples. Please don't branch out to other sports, because it's already clear that guys like Vince Wilfork can't handle it (as evidenced by a tiny wave in Nassau knocking him off his feet).
 
From there we can move onto to other physical attributes.

 

[pokey_reese]

Topical: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/55162/why-pablo-sandoval-weight-does-matter?ex_cid=espnapi_public

 

[StuckOnYouk]

Hey, he's replacing a guy who liked playing here but was beyond awful.
It's not like he has to play like mike Schmidt to be a big improvement

 

[Rasputin]

Hey, he's replacing a guy who liked playing here but was beyond awful.
It's not like he has to play like mike Schmidt to be a big improvement

 
Seriously, if he plays halfway decent, is a fun guy, and the Sox win, there won't be a problem.
 
If he plays like crap, is a fun guy, and the Sox win, there won't be a problem.

 

[swingin val]

I don't think it's unusual at all for a player with weight problems to put on weight during the season, when he works out less and eats hotel food more. 
 

Why is he eating hotel food in the off season? Doesn't he have a home?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Or so Carl has told us.  I still don't recall the fans or media reacting negatively to him in any perceptible way.

 
I don't either, which was my point.  Crawford skated through 2011 for the most part.  It wasn't until maybe the last play of the year when he failed to catch the liner, and then some comments during the off season, that the media really turned on him to any degree.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

Why is he eating hotel food in the off season? Doesn't he have a home?

That's not what I wrote, and I was responding to Allented's post #71.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Why is he eating hotel food in then off season? Doesn't he have a home?

He's part of a food cartel in Venezuela so he has to eat out a lot.
 
This many posts and undoubtedly more to come over the one Pablo picture. Hope the dude comes out of the chute with a good bat or we're in trouble. He's in trouble?

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Skinny guys hitting .250 > fat guys hitting .270

 

[gaelgirl]

I don't think it's unusual at all for a player with weight problems to put on weight during the season, when he works out less and eats hotel food more. 
 
Like others, I wish he looked leaner now, having had a few months to get into shape, but he could still shed 5-10 pounds over the next 6 weeks if he wants to.  It IS a good sign that he reported early.

 
This would be relevant if the Giants didn't have a health-conscious chef that traveled with the team AND Pablo Sandoval didn't have his own personal chef (his brother, who graduated from culinary school) who was employed full-time specifically to provide Pablo Sandoval with healthy food. Also, there are other Giants who religiously adhere to post-game workout sessions. It's not like Pablo would be a man alone on an island if he wanted to work out during the season. 
 
Sandoval has lost weight in Spring Training before, when he showed up to camp out of shape and Bruce Bochy threatened to bench him if he didn't drop weight by a certain date. 
 

Ok all you data driven naysayers. Please provide evidence that there's a relationship between weight (body mass) and ability in baseball. Don't hesitate to use real life examples. Please don't branch out to other sports, because it's already clear that guys like Vince Wilfork can't handle it (as evidenced by a tiny wave in Nassau knocking him off his feet).
 
From there we can move onto to other physical attributes.

Why do you need data about all players? There's plenty of evidence about this specific player and how he performs at various weights. Pablo Sandoval can be very effective while also being overweight. I have sat and watched him play, in person, for his entire career. When he's leaner, he's quicker and more agile on the field and more consistent at the plate. When his weight gets out of hand, routine grounders end up in left field, he lumbers around the bases and his hitting ability declines. I'd guess many players would struggle at a weight/size where Pablo still excels. He definitely is surprisingly agile while still being big. But he walks a fine line, because once he gets up to 270, he starts having issues. In 2013, he was apparently north of 280. Let me tell you, it was painful to watch. 
 
I loved Sandoval as a Giant and was angry he left. But I laughed out loud when I saw that picture yesterday. If it's accurate, I don't think he's ever shown up to Spring Training in worse shape. For someone who struggles with conditioning, that's not a good sign. 

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Not picking on you GG, but is there data to back that up? Could very well be, just curious.
 
And, I think it does relate to "all" players, because baseball is not one of those sports that conforms to a specific body type or athleticism (Prince Fielder being one obvious example, Jose Altuve another, Gabe Kapler being a third).
 
I'm not disputing you, but I want to see cause/effect - mostly because I don't think the guy is going to get a fair shake in Boston. 
 
{edit: Plus, I can't believe that anything posted by BDD elicits serious conversation}

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

For someone who didn't like the fit from the first rumors that started connecting the two it is very easy and lazy to look at one side view picture and say "Boom I'm right what a bum for not showing up like he did to SF Giants camp last year" 
 
OTOH and not through rose tinted glasses He's incredibly early to camp  and worked on RH hitting which clearly needs to improve. Personally the fit couldn't be better in my eyes in terms of needing a competent 3b which has been a gaping hole since Youk broke down. Also it's not like all the negative media attention will be on him thanks to Hanley's transition and of course the ace less pitching staff.
 
Also it should be and has been noted he showed up in "best shape of his life" last spring and was terrible till he gained some weight back.  Positive vibes dammit spring training hasn't even officially begun yet. 

 
Fair enough.  You are right that the Sox need a solution at 3B and when Sandoval is playing well, he is pretty good, flaws and all.  I am not being clear - I like the guy however, I have made my peace with his flaws.  His ABs are not ones that people in Boston will expect coming from a $100mm player and I hope that fans are as forgiving/patient as many here seem to be.  I would like nothing more for Pablo to lead the Sox to multiple WS championships while transitioning to Ortiz' successor.    Its entirely possible so let's just leave it at that.
 

Not picking on you GG, but is there data to back that up? Could very well be, just curious.
 
And, I think it does relate to "all" players, because baseball is not one of those sports that conforms to a specific body type or athleticism (Prince Fielder being one obvious example, Jose Altuve another, Gabe Kapler being a third).
 
I'm not disputing you, but I want to see cause/effect - mostly because I don't think the guy is going to get a fair shake in Boston. 
 
{edit: Plus, I can't believe that anything posted by BDD elicits serious conversation}

 
You ask a fair question - can we track performance and weight together?  Given the information we have now - photos and small sample sizes of data - its probably impossible.  Those of us who watched Sandoval's weight fluctuate may well have been influenced by his streaky nature, the local press or our eyes may have been fooling us.    However its pretty clear that people in the Giants organization had concerns about Sandoval's weight and its impact on his performance.  You can discount that because its not really data but for those of us who have seen him play, it seems to square with some of the struggles he has had in San Francisco over the years.

 

[jacklamabe65]

 
Yes, the same era where some players smoked cigarettes in the dugout. 

Ah, Captain Carl - and he liked Camels - no filters from him.

 

[joe dokes]

His ABs are not ones that people in Boston will expect coming from a $100mm player
 

 
That is a meaningless statement. The only Abs that people in Boston "dont expect" are ones that end up in outs too many times.  if you're saying he's gonna suck, then, yeah, "people in Boston" (are these different than "Red Sox fans"?) wont expect or like it.
"People in Boston" have also been known to be idiots of the not 2004 team variety. ("JD Drew didn't have enuf RBIs.....")

 

[Al Zarilla]

 
I loved Sandoval as a Giant and was angry he left. But I laughed out loud when I saw that picture yesterday. If it's accurate, I don't think he's ever shown up to Spring Training in worse shape. For someone who struggles with conditioning, that's not a good sign. 

He has his weight on the backs of his feet and he's letting it all hang out in that bad picture. Conversely, he looks like pretty normal Pablo in the video Phrenile posted, copied below. Sure, taking off a few lbs and firming up the gut some in ST would be good. As you and I have already pointed out, he has done this is spring training before. 
 
I was thinking that Ortiz and maybe Pedroia may start to be all over his case if he looks like he's going to eat himself out of a job in Boston. Farrell too. He's like a big impressionable kid that probably needs a butt kicking now and then. Ortiz would not be afraid to do that.
 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Urqz08sI8U