Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended

[lambeau]

Philbin presumably wanted to cut Incognito because his behavior was primitive,out of control, and not conforming to civilized norms--even as loosely defined in the NFL.
 
This speaks to how "adult" the atmosphere was. Martin had to spend all his time at work being hazed by "adult" Richie and "Free Hernandez" Pouncy, his linemates.

 

[dcmissle]

If -- IF -- Martin gave as good as he got, and there are some snippets here to support that contention:
 
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/01/30/richie-incogntio-fights-back-against-bullying-allegations/
 
then I suspect he has drawn his last NFL paycheck, and that Richie has not.

 

[smastroyin]

Based on Martin's public comments, it sounds like both sides are just amping up a little rhetoric before the official NFL findings come out after the Super Bowl.
 
I think a team might still take a chance on Martin, but he won't get a job as a LT any time soon.  I think lost in the shuffle of the bullying discussion is that Martin sucked at his job.  Perhaps you could argue that he sucked because he was being bullied and would flourish in a better environment, but I'm guessing NFL teams aren't going to be lining up to take that chance.  

 

[Shelterdog]

Based on Martin's public comments, it sounds like both sides are just amping up a little rhetoric before the official NFL findings come out after the Super Bowl.
 
I think a team might still take a chance on Martin, but he won't get a job as a LT any time soon.  I think lost in the shuffle of the bullying discussion is that Martin sucked at his job.  Perhaps you could argue that he sucked because he was being bullied and would flourish in a better environment, but I'm guessing NFL teams aren't going to be lining up to take that chance.  

 
If there a gif somewhere of patriots nickelback Derrick Martin bullrushing Martin in that game late in 2012? Because that was the single worst play I've ever seen from an NFL tackle.

 

[dcmissle]

Based on Martin's public comments, it sounds like both sides are just amping up a little rhetoric before the official NFL findings come out after the Super Bowl.
 
I think a team might still take a chance on Martin, but he won't get a job as a LT any time soon.  I think lost in the shuffle of the bullying discussion is that Martin sucked at his job.  Perhaps you could argue that he sucked because he was being bullied and would flourish in a better environment, but I'm guessing NFL teams aren't going to be lining up to take that chance.  

 
 
Interesting point made on local radio last night by Chris Cooley, recently retired from the Redskins.
 
Wherever Martin goes (and Cooley thinks he may get a shot), Martin will have to air this whole thing out with his new teammates.  Otherwise, he will be regarded as an untrustworthy rat in the locker room.  Put aside talking to Martin -- Cooley said:  there would be concerns on the players' part about talking to each other -- i.e., fodder for a claim of hostile working environment given the back-and-forth common in an NFL lockerroom.  Telling in this  respect is the reaction of the Dolphin teammates.
 
It's too bad so many people got on their high horses before the full facts were presented.  That's not to say that Richie is a good guy.  But it may be  the same old story -- charges in page 1 headlines, clarifications buried on p. 12 of the C section of the paper.

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

It's too bad so many people got on their high horses before the full facts were presented.  That's not to say that Richie is a good guy.  But it may be  the same old story -- charges in page 1 headlines, clarifications buried on p. 12 of the C section of the paper.

 
Welcome to SOSH!!!!  Incognito still seems like a d-bag and I'm sure he's still somewhat at fault but go back and read some of this thread's early pages.  You'd think Martin was poor Daniel LaRrusso just trying to make it through Reseda High before he was viciously attacked by the Cobra Kai.  I wouldn't want either of these guys on my team if I'm a coach or GM.   

 

[soxfan121]

It's too bad so many people got on their high horses before the full facts were presented.  That's not to say that Richie is a good guy.  But it may be  the same old story -- charges in page 1 headlines, clarifications buried on p. 12 of the C section of the paper.

 
First, you've done some awesome work in the above section. I tried to find a gif of an old western comedy where someone is shoved off horseback by someone jumping onto the horse, only to have the pusher slide off the other side, but couldn't. Oh well. 
 
Second, while it is certainly possible that the high-horse brigade (including me) may have used the Jump To Conclusions mat, I'd argue that the discussion and awareness of the issue of bullying did some societal 'good', regardless of the outcome in the specific Dolphins/Incognito/Martin situation. 
 
 

 
Welcome to SOSH!!!!  Incognito still seems like a d-bag and I'm sure he's still somewhat at fault but go back and read some of this thread's early pages.  You'd think Martin was poor Daniel LaRrusso just trying to make it through Reseda High before he was viciously attacked by the Cobra Kai.  I wouldn't want either of these guys on my team if I'm a coach or GM.   

 
This probably belongs in the Things You Just Learned thread but Jack from LA used go by John...

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

This text from Martin to Incognito is pretty awesome:
 

 
‘I’m gonna give McDonald bath salts and lock him in your house with a tranquilizer gun & a box of sand paper condoms,’

 

[Van Everyman]

So just scanned thru the Fox story. But are we just assuming Martin was full of shit now because...Incognito's attorneys said so?

 

[EvilEmpire]

So just scanned thru the Fox story. But are we just assuming Martin was full of shit now because...Incognito's attorneys said so?

More like because of what Martin texted (said), but if Incognito's attorney is fabricating texts from Martin, yeah, that will be a big deal.

 

[dcmissle]

 
First, you've done some awesome work in the above section. I tried to find a gif of an old western comedy where someone is shoved off horseback by someone jumping onto the horse, only to have the pusher slide off the other side, but couldn't. Oh well. 
 
Second, while it is certainly possible that the high-horse brigade (including me) may have used the Jump To Conclusions mat, I'd argue that the discussion and awareness of the issue of bullying did some societal 'good', regardless of the outcome in the specific Dolphins/Incognito/Martin situation. 
 
 
 
This probably belongs in the Things You Just Learned thread but Jack from LA used go by John...

I would not include you in the high horse brigade. I said at the time and still believe that your posts on bullying were some of the most compelling I have ever seen here.

Nonetheless, their merit is not diminished one iota by the distinct possibility that Martin and his HR lawyer mother have played everyone on this incident. That does not make Richie a good guy. But it does underscore the dangers of knee jerk reactions to media firestorms ignited by one-sided presentations of what allegedly occurred.

 

[Van Everyman]

More like because of what Martin texted (said), but if Incognito's attorney is fabricating texts from Martin, yeah, that will be a big deal.

No, I get that they both texted crazy shit to each other. I just thought that that folks like sf121 had established that victims of bullying often gave as good as they got.

Maybe I'm missing something here but almost everything I read in that Fox piece—that Martin texted offensive stuff too, that he only piped up when he was at risk of losing his job—was more or less raised when the story original broke. I mean, Incognito himself said as much to Jay Glazer. The fact that we now have texts and that Martin self-medicated don't in and of themselves seem to change that narrative. But perhaps I'm missing something...

 

[mascho]

Here are over 1000 texts exchanged between the two.  Enjoy.

 

[veritas]

Here are over 1000 texts exchanged between the two.  Enjoy.

 
I've been pretty much on the side of Martin up until now, but those texts really make him look bad.
 
One interesting thing, none of the horrible texts from Incognito that have been made public are in there, which means that is just a subset of the texts between the two. Obviously cherry-picking text messages can make a relationship look a lot different than it actually is.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Here are over 1000 texts exchanged between the two.  Enjoy.

My two takeaways from that are (a) those guys were pretty friendly and pulled a ton of women together and (b) players in Miami party all the fucking time.

 

[Soxy]

I didn't see a lot of hazing, but I saw a lot of texts about drugs and hookers.
 
They both come off like meathead dudebros.

 

[Tony C]

Thanks for putting into words what I hadn't quite articulated to myself: yeah, total meatheads, can't have sympathy for either. Martin is a total fraud but just when I start thinking that should make me sympathetic to Incognito....well, then I realize it's Richie Incognito.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I didn't see a lot of hazing, but I saw a lot of texts about drugs and hookers.
 
They both come off like meathead dudebros.

 
 Yup, pretty much.  I can maybe see how Martin secretly didn't feel comfortable in that role but he sure kept playing it.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

To be fair, the texts, assuming they are the full record of mobile communications between the two, show only one aspect of their relationship.  Its entirely possible that Incognito was more abusive in person but we simply will never really know.  
 
That said, the texts don't seem to support the one-sided bullying/hazing narrative.  I suspect that there are many people on this site who have text exchanges with their close friends that resemble the interaction between Incognito and Martin except for the high end strippers and hookers....otoh, I wouldn't be surprised if they included exchanges about that stuff too.

 

[veritas]

To be fair, the texts, assuming they are the full record of mobile communications between the two, show only one aspect of their relationship.  Its entirely possible that Incognito was more abusive in person but we simply will never really know.  
 
That said, the texts don't seem to support the one-sided bullying/hazing narrative.  I suspect that there are many people on this site who have text exchanges with their close friends that resemble the interaction between Incognito and Martin except for the high end strippers and hookers....otoh, I wouldn't be surprised if they included exchanges about that stuff too.

 
Except these texts don't contain some of the damning ones Incognito allegedly sent to Martin. Did Martin fabricate those, or did Incognito remove some of the harsher texts from the ones released?
 
Either way, the texts that were released show at the very least these two had a friendship on some level.

 

[Murderer's Crow]

Is anybody else wondering how they passed drug tests? 

 

[Devizier]

Is anybody else wondering how they passed drug tests? 

 
Is this our Canseco moment?

 

[Clears Cleaver]

Is anybody else wondering how they passed drug tests?

It's the NFL. Where guys who retire lose 60 pounds in one offseason suddenly. It's a joke. Drug testing without blood samples is a total farce.

 

[Rovin Romine]

 
Except these texts don't contain some of the damning ones Incognito allegedly sent to Martin. Did Martin fabricate those, or did Incognito remove some of the harsher texts from the ones released?
 
Either way, the texts that were released show at the very least these two had a friendship on some level.

 
Eh.  Context is everything.  Martin could have been pressured to go along with Incognito; he may have sent friendly texts but felt increasingly harassed and pressured to banter back.  
 
Or Martin may have been just fine up until a certain point.  

 

[mascho]

Popcorn time.
 
Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  15m
I'm ready to move on with my life and career. I've been dragged through the mud for months by my "best friend". #betrayed #railroaded
 
Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  1m
Dear Jon Martin..... The truth is going to bury you and your entire "camp". You could have told the truth the entire time.
 
Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  54s
Jon Martin---- you started all of this when Kenny Zimmerman released the VM to ESPN. The same VM we joked about with @brianhartline
 
Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  40s
Bombs over Baghdad by Outkast http://youtu.be/fVyVIsvQoaE  #FREEINCOGNITO #BringIt

 

[MalzoneExpress]

Popcorn time.
 
Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  15m
I'm ready to move on with my life and career. I've been dragged through the mud for months by my "best friend". #betrayed #railroaded
 
Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  1m
Dear Jon Martin..... The truth is going to bury you and your entire "camp". You could have told the truth the entire time.
 
Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  54s
Jon Martin---- you started all of this when Kenny Zimmerman released the VM to ESPN. The same VM we joked about with @brianhartline
 
Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  40s
Bombs over Baghdad by Outkast http://youtu.be/fVyVIsvQoaE  #FREEINCOGNITO #BringIt

Is Richie off his meds again?

 

[mascho]

He continues:
 

1. 
   
   
   
   Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  4m
   And now, @68INCOGNITO is making real clear the way he feels about the last four months. Complete with theme music.
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2. 
   
    
   
   Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  2m
   @AlbertBreer 4 months of silence while independent investigation did its job.
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3. 
   
    
   
   Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  1m
   @68INCOGNITO Yup, that too.
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[*]

 

Richie Incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO  1m
I apologize to all of the women out there that I offended with my text messages to my close personal friend.

 

[EvilEmpire]

Almost sounds like he knows the results of the investigation and feels like he doesn't have to hold back anymore.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Why is Breer acting like his fluffer? Just let the guy say his thing without idiotic commentary.
 
God he sucks.

 

[dcmissle]

Almost sounds like he knows the results of the investigation and feels like he doesn't have to hold back anymore.

 
True enough, but that makes the behavior even more bizarre because he now has to find a job.  Last week, he was baiting Ted Wells' law firm in tweets.  Off his  meds indeed.

 

[mascho]

And there's this:
 
@68INCOGNITO  2m
FACT: Jonathan Martin told me he thought about taking his own life in MAY 2013 b/c he wasn't playing well. Told me he felt worthless.

 

[EvilEmpire]

True enough, but that makes the behavior even more bizarre because he now has to find a job.  Last week, he was baiting Ted Wells' law firm in tweets.  Off his  meds indeed.

Yeah. I'm not sure that bizarre is the right word though. Dumb guy doing dumb things isn't very strange or unusual to me. He'll get a job, but he sure as hell cost himself some money. What a meathead.

 

[soxhop411]

Those tweets will be deleted within the hour I think

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

does anyone else sometimes wonder if the part of guy's like Incognito's brain that makes him a meathead/dumbass is the same part of his brain that turns him from a large, resonably atheltic guy into a professional athlete? 
 
I mean clearly there are are guys in the NFL that have just superior athleticism and god given talent, size, speed, etc...  But I often wonder if there is a second group that does not have terribly large gap in their size and athletic ability vs their peers in college that never made it in the NFL.  I imagine if the difference in this second group can't be measured physcially then it must be some mental difference.
 
It's an intersting question to think about.  Is Richie Incognito a psycho because he is an overpaid pro athlete or is he an overpaid pro athlete because he is a pyscho?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Smells Like Cream Spirit

 

[mascho]

Hilarious.  Something tells me Mr. Schamel just blew a stack.
 
 ‏@68INCOGNITO  7s
I have no further comment at this time. Please contact my attorney Mark Schamel @WCSRtweet 202-857-4481

 

[dcmissle]

does anyone else sometimes wonder if the part of guy's like Incognito's brain that makes him a meathead/dumbass is the same part of his brain that turns him from a large, resonably atheltic guy into a professional athlete? 
 
I mean clearly there are are guys in the NFL that have just superior athleticism and god given talent, size, speed, etc...  But I often wonder if there is a second group that does not have terribly large gap in their size and athletic ability vs their peers in college that never made it in the NFL.  I imagine if the difference in this second group can't be measured physcially then it must be some mental difference.
 
It's an intersting question to think about.  Is Richie Incognito a psycho because he is an overpaid pro athlete or is he an overpaid pro athlete because he is a pyscho?

 
There is evidence he was a "psycho" in college, which tends to open your door #2.  Still, while we are dealing in generalities, the most sensible and intelligent guys in the League are often found on the o-line.
 
He can't control his emotions right now, and that's a not a good calling card for a good team, if for no other reason than the fact that any new team does not want to be on PFT.com because of things Richie says or does.  He's been a very good player but certainly not the kind of overwhelming talent that would lead you to put up with the bs, especially at his age.
 
Richie is enraged.  I get it.  Particularly if he was played by Martin and the mommy lawyer.  He's out to make Martin entirely radioactive and may well succeed.  But you have to look out for yourself first.

 

[Average Reds]

Hilarious.  Something tells me Mr. Schamel just blew a stack.
 
 ‏@68INCOGNITO  7s
I have no further comment at this time. Please contact my attorney Mark Schamel @WCSRtweet 202-857-4481

 
The visual I am getting of a chastened Richie Incognito pecking away at his keyboard is beyond awesome.

 

[Shelterdog]

And there's this:
 
@68INCOGNITO  2m
FACT: Jonathan Martin told me he thought about taking his own life in MAY 2013 b/c he wasn't playing well. Told me he felt worthless.

 
I'm not sure that that goes in the "FACTS THAT MAKE INCOGNITO SEEM LIKE A SWELL GUY WHO JOSHS AROUND WITH PALS" bin.

 

[sodenj5]

 
I'm not sure that that goes in the "FACTS THAT MAKE INCOGNITO SEEM LIKE A SWELL GUY WHO JOSHS AROUND WITH PALS" bin.

It goes in the "Richie didn't bully Martin to the point of suicidal thoughts" bin, as some were trying to portray.

 

[Average Reds]

It goes in the "Richie didn't bully Martin to the point of suicidal thoughts" bin, as some were trying to portray.

 
Please don't try to sell these tweets as being anything other than the stupid move that they are.
 
This is like a guy who believes he's on the verge of being cleared of rape charges taking to Twitter to tell everyone "the bitch asked for it!!!"

 

[PedroKsBambino]

It goes in the "Richie didn't bully Martin to the point of suicidal thoughts" bin, as some were trying to portray.

Only if one believes Incognito, which I think is a poor approach to take.   I have no idea what went on between them, but I'm confident that Incognito is one strange dude...

 

[sodenj5]

 
Please don't try to sell these tweets as being anything other than the stupid move that they are.
 
This is like a guy who believes he's on the verge of being cleared of rape charges taking to Twitter to tell everyone "the bitch asked for it!!!"

Ha, I'm pretty sure I didn't state that it was a great legal or career move anywhere. That's just my guess on the thinking, or lack thereof, that was behind that particular tweet.

I see the anti-Incognito sentiment in this thread is still pretty strong.

 

[Average Reds]

Is there such a thing as pro-Incognito sentiment?
 
Edit:  I mean, the only argument in favor of Incognito is what, exactly?  That his racism is within the bounds of what the NFL accepts?

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Right, I have zero idea if Incognito did the set of things he's been accused of or not.  So, my criticism of Incognito doesn't assume much about this incident.  That said, even if I assume everything Martin has said about Incognito is false, I still have no problem concluding (based on his track record) that Incognito is a turd and an unlikeable and unreliable guy.

 

[smastroyin]

Don't go around with this again sodenj, please.  And it's not because your opinion is invalid or anything, it's that everyone feels the need to reply to you and you feel the need to keep replying and it's a clusterfuck.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Hilarious.  Something tells me Mr. Schamel just blew a stack.
 
 ‏@68INCOGNITO  7s
I have no further comment at this time. Please contact my attorney Mark Schamel @WCSRtweet 202-857-4481

 
He'll feel better when he realizes that Incognito just created another 50 hours of work for him. 

 

[Dogman]

 
He'll feel better when he realizes that Incognito just created another 50 hours of work for him. 

 
My first thought was that he lawyer was gonna love this.  Not from the perspective that he needs to put this fire out but from the one where he gets to charge for the water.

 

[kenneycb]

Is there such a thing as pro-Incognito sentiment?
 
Edit:  I mean, the only argument in favor of Incognito is what, exactly?  That his racism is within the bounds of what the NFL accepts?

No.  But there can be neutral sentiment that both parties are at "fault", for lack of a better term. Which seems the most plausible to me given the stuff that keeps coming out.

 

[cromulence]

 

No.  But there can be neutral sentiment that both parties are at "fault", for lack of a better term. Which seems the most plausible to me given the stuff that keeps coming out.

 
Which is why this was so shockingly stupid. He was thisclose to coming out of this looking better than anyone could have imagined, but then "LOL HE'S SUICIDAL!!1" pretty much torched any chance of that.