Sea Bass and Syrah - Copa America Chile 2015

[blueguitar322]

1-0 HT. Colombia doing a great job tackling at midfield, they're producing quite a few breaks thanks to that. Brazil looked better in the first 15min, but haven't been able to find a way to break down Colombia's defense. It's not like Colombia is parking the bus, either - there are gaps in the defense, but Colombia's defenders are playing well and able to snuff out most potential chances before they happen.

 

[blueguitar322]

Looks like Coutinho is coming on for Brazil

 

[blueguitar322]

Firmino misses a WIDE open net after Ospina makes a mess of an already poor pass - should be tied now.

 

[trekfan55]

Referee showed two red cards after the final whistle.

Neymar basically being an ass.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Referee showed two red cards after the final whistle.

Neymar basically being an ass.

I wouldn't put that on Neymar at all. He was walking off the field when Bacca comes running 15 yards to shove him in the back. I guess some people are saying he "headbutted" the guy who comes up and grabs him while talking in his ear, but there is basically no contact there that I saw. Neymar is obnoxious, but in this circumstance he didn't really do anything.

 

[trekfan55]

I wouldn't put that on Neymar at all. He was walking off the field when Bacca comes running 15 yards to shove him in the back. I guess some people are saying he "headbutted" the guy who comes up and grabs him while talking in his ear, but there is basically no contact there that I saw. Neymar is obnoxious, but in this circumstance he didn't really do anything.

From my TV feed, Neymar kicked a ball right to Armero when they blew the final whistle, and that's what started it all.

 

[Zososoxfan]

Looks like Coutinho is coming on for Brazil

 
I don't claim to know much about the Brazil NT, but I'm pretty shocked that Coutinho isn't a no-brainer starter for this team. Other than Neymar, he's their most talented attacker, no?
 
Also, Neymar is an idiot. He should've gotten a second yellow for showing the ref up and punching the ball after a hard foul shortly after his handball yellow in the first half.

 

[Dummy Hoy]

Grabbed the ref, punched the ball, booted it right at someone at the end of the game. 
 
Colombia did to him exactly what Brazil did to Rodriguez last year and he couldn't handle it. Although in his defense, I'd be pissy carrying this Brazil team too.

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

 

[Zososoxfan]

Neymar is suspended for 2 matches for this incident. Since he was already on a yellow from the first game, this is really only 1 additional match. So, if Brasil makes it out of the group stage, he would miss the QF.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

And less than an hour later, they've provisionally trimmed the ban to 1 match.
 
"Final" decision is apparently to come tomorrow.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I haven't followed the Copa America or this discussion very closely so maybe this is old hat...but why does Brazil continue to have such awful squad selection?  Its great that they are giving time to Coutinho and Firmino, two players who probably should have made the WC2014 roster.  But guys like Tardelli and Robeiro over Lucas Moura? We're talking about dudes playing in China and Dubai versus one of the more dynamic young wing players in the world playing for PSG.  And this for a team that obviously needs some more creativity in attack.

 

[Senator Donut]

Brazil allegedly sold their squad selection to a marketing firm. (CBF denies this claim.)
http://www.espnfc.us/brazil/story/2455221/brazil-national-team-squad-selection-sold-to-firm-report

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Brazil allegedly sold their squad selection to a marketing firm. (CBF denies this claim.)
http://www.espnfc.us/brazil/story/2455221/brazil-national-team-squad-selection-sold-to-firm-report

I had to double-check that link to make sure it wasn't the Onion.
 
If that's true.....wow.

 

[Conigliaro's Potential]

Historically, Brazilian squad selection has often felt weird - and I'm not talking about Ronaldo being picked (allegedly by Nike) to play in the 1998 World Cup final. There's always been a disconnect between Brazilians playing in Brazil and those playing in Europe (or elsewhere) which managers have found hard to reconcile; then there are managers like Dunga and Lazaroni who haven't felt comfortable playing expansive football and have picked more water carriers and fewer artists in their teams. Additionally, Brazil always seem to have played more fixtures in more competitions in more parts of the world than any other country, which has led to a much larger group of players being incorporated into the national side than you typically see anywhere else. And I haven't even mentioned the part where Brazil have historically had far more superb players to call upon than most countries. Add a touch of possible corruption to all of those other factors, and I've come to accept that Brazil's starting XI will almost never be the 11 players I know best or would expect to play for them.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Neymar is suspended for the rest of the tournament.
 
Mexico is out after losing to Ecuador 2-1.

 

[rguilmar]

And Chile is looking like the real deal. With the way this tournament is shaping up, they have to be feeling like they're the favorites to win it at home. Just get Vidal a DD.

 

[dirtynine]

Suarez is still suspended. Neymar and Vidal are effing up. Messi has been generally less than magical for Argentina.

Obviously everybody's just warming up for the 2015 Copa up this way.

 

[Zososoxfan]

With the group stage over, we now know the QF setup:
 
Chile vs. Uruguay
Bolivia vs. Peru
 
Argentina vs. Colombia
Brazil vs. Paraguay
 
Chile vs. Uruguay and Argentina vs. Colombia are pretty scintillating matchups. Bolivia and Peru pits the two underdogs against each other and Brazil should be favored over Paraguay. As teams have now had 3 meaningful games and more time to train together, hopefully we will see some better aesthetic soccer going forward. This tourney has been notable for the compactness of most teams (outside of the ABC - Argentina, Brazil, Chile and to a lesser extent Colombia). I really hope the refs clamp down on strategic fouls and let these games breathe a bit more. Also, Neymar was suspended 4 games for his antics at the end of the Colombia match, so he is out for the rest of the tournament. 
 
Chile put in the best performance of the tournament so far, shellacking Bolivia 5-0 to win Group A. I expect them to press Uruguay's backline, create turnovers, and have their creative attackers create lots of chances. Finishing will be key for them. By virtue of finishing 3rd in Group B, Uruguay draws the host. Uruguay has played very compact and physically so far. Cavani has not been great and Godin has been the best player. Alvaro Pereira will be out for the Chile match, which doesn't help. The team looks best on set pieces and attacking early crosses. With Suarez, this team would be a considerable threat but without him, I think Chile takes this in a not so close game.
 
I'll be honest and say I haven't watched much of Bolivia. But, I have seen Peru against Brazil and Colombia. This team is very resilient and sneaky good. They don't have any allstars, but they are solid at the back and can frustrate the opposition. Although Neymar's pass undid them late against Brazil, they played well in that game and announced their presence. Against Colombia, they shut down James and really frustrated the Colombia attack (which admittedly hasn't been great yet). They will likely have to bring the game to Bolivia in this match, and I expect that they will be able to get at least one past Bolivia and progress.
 
Argentina vs. Colombia has a lot of potential to be a great match. Argentina haven't shown their true talent level yet, but there is something to be said for not losing a match and getting results. Pastore has really started to play better, Argentina has gotten their bench players some minutes (Higuain, Demichelis), and the team still has that Messi fella. I still feel like Lavezzi should replace Di Maria in the lineup because he can provide the same width Di Maria does, but he can also make more incisive runs than Di Maria who is more of a creator than finisher. Tevez could also be included, but he plays more centrally. All 3 have good defensive effort though, which is quite a luxury. Colombia was frustrated in their match against Peru, but again, just getting to this point is important. James may have more room to operate in this game since Argentina will have to attack. Colombia can try to attack on the break, especially thru Cuadrado (who hasn't been utilized nearly enough yet IMO), but if Argentina scores early and opens them up, it could be a long day for the Cafeteros. Carlos Bacca and Carlos Sanchez are both out for this match and with Falcao's form pretty shitty right now, Colombia has a tough test ahead. James will need to have some moments of brilliance to dent Argentina. Nevertheless, they are still a good squad and should be competitive.
 
Brazil looked much better in their match against an underrated Venezuela side than in their match against Colombia. Alves and Willian were excellent going forward and the Brazilians were combining very well up front. Even Robinho looked pretty good. Coutinho still doesn't look comfortable, but he has so much quality, it's only matter of when, not if. David Luiz didn't start and the CBs (Silva and Miranda) looked just fine. This allowed Fernandinho to play in his natural position and the pieces looked to fit much better. I will be very interested to see if Luiz starts this match. Paraguay is a stingy defensive team that is very representative of CONMEBOL sides. They defend in numbers and compactly, and look to pip a goal and defend. Richard Ortiz is out for the Brazil match. I expect the Paraguayans to make it difficult for Brazil to find space, but since they can't really threaten Brazil going forward, Brazil should advance.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

My god I just saw the replay of the Cavani second yellow.  I love Chile but that was one of the more despicable episodes of comical yet successful fakery that I've seen on the pitch.  Sergio Busquets and Dani Alves have nothing on Gonzalo Jara.

 

[Conigliaro's Potential]

To be fair, Uruguay are the pantomimiest of pantomime villians - that was a pretty empty display by them for all 90 minutes. And Cavani arguably should have been sent off when he got his first yellow for bumping the linesman...I'm not going to shed any tears for them.

 

[SocrManiac]

Chile were despicable, but as an Italian fan it's some karmic retribution for the events that happened a year ago. Godin shouldn't even have been on the field against Italy (should have been suspended from his antics in the previous game) and he scored the game winner. Don't get me started on Suarez.
 
I'm more concerned about Vidal's knee. It's difficult to believe he was able to get back on the field and play. http://gfycat.com/ComplexAthleticAlpaca

 

[DLew On Roids]

Chile were despicable, but as an Italian fan it's some karmic retribution for

I was hoping your were going to say the Battle of Santiago.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, stop everything you're doing and watch this.

 

[Zososoxfan]

 
I was hoping your were going to say the Battle of Santiago.
 
For those who don't know what I'm talking about, stop everything you're doing and watch this.
 
 

 

 
This is outstanding. There's a nice form tackle right around the 3-minute mark, would make BB proud. From the Wiki on this game:
 

 
The referee was Ken Aston, who later went on to invent yellow and red cards[!!!]
...
The first foul occurred within 12 seconds of the kick-off.[1] Italy's Giorgio Ferrini was sent off in the twelfth minute after a foul on Honorino Landa, but refused to leave the pitch and had to be dragged off by policemen. Landa retaliated with a punch few minutes later, but he was not sent off.
 
English referee Ken Aston overlooked a punch by Chilean Leonel Sánchez to Italian Mario David, which had come in retaliation for being fouled seconds earlier. When David kicked Sanchez in the head a few minutes later, he was sent off.
 
In the violence that continued, Sanchez broke Humberto Maschio's nose with a left hook, but Aston did not send him off. The two teams engaged in scuffles and spitting, and police had to intervene three more times. Chile won the match 2–0.
 
When highlights from the match were shown on British television a couple of days later (not the same night, because film of matches still had to be flown back), the match was famously introduced by BBC sports commentator David Coleman as: "the most stupid, appalling, disgusting and disgraceful exhibition of football, possibly in the history of the game."[

 

[Schnerres]

Peru into the semifinal vs. Chile after they beat Bolivia 3-1. Paolo Guerrero (former Bayern, Hamburg) scored all three goals.

 

[Zososoxfan]

Peru looked very fluid on offense and solid overall, but weak on set pieces. Their match vs. Chile should be a good one. I'm a big fan of Advincula's game, but I have an odd obsession with FBs, so yeah. Cueva is performing very well and a lot of their attacks flow thru him. I bet he gets snatched up by a Euro club by the end of summer. Bolivia's keeper was atrocious.

 

[teddykgb]

Heading to penalties. Squeaky bum time

 

[teddykgb]

How does Biglia end up in Argentinas 5?

 

[sachmoney]

How does Biglia end up in Argentinas 5?

And how did it take so long for Carlitos to take one?

 

[sachmoney]

Also, goes without saying, but Ospina was unbelievable during regulation. Argentina probably should have had several goals, but Ospina made big save after big save. Worthy man of the match, even in defeat. And he's up for sale!

 

[slamminsammya]

A seleção is playing disjointed, frustrating, conservative soccer again against Paraguay today. Two defensive midfielders, no midfield support for any attacking moves, and without the ball they are managing to both sit back in their own half and maintain very little shape. How can a team with such a wealth of attacking talent have so little creativity? 

 

[shawnrbu]

Ribeiro misses.  Door open for Paraguay. 

 

[Zososoxfan]

A seleção is playing disjointed, frustrating, conservative soccer again against Paraguay today. Two defensive midfielders, no midfield support for any attacking moves, and without the ball they are managing to both sit back in their own half and maintain very little shape. How can a team with such a wealth of attacking talent have so little creativity? 

 
They really don't have a wealth of attacking talent, though. I'm a huge Coutinho fan and Firmino seems to have some skill, but Brazil's strength is at the back. Robinho played better than I expected, but he's not a world class striker by any means. I was a huge critic of Hulk and Fred during last year's WC, but they probably should've been on the squad. Were they left off because of injury or were they blamed for last year's results? Silva and Miranda are excellent, no team has better FBs than Alves, Luis, and Marcelo (huge loss for them this cup). I'm not a huge David Luiz fan, but he's probably a solid DMF, Willian is outstanding, and Fernandinho can play his role well. But, without Neymar, that's not really a great attacking group. There's no Kaka, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, etc. It would've been a gamble, but Brazil should've considered playing a 3-4-3 or a 3-5-2 to get Alves and Luis into the attack. But, that's not how the modern Selecao does things, and to be honest, it's hard to argue with their results over the past 20 years too much even if it's conservative and aesthetically drab. Cup soccer is just such a different animal and you can't overstate how important being solid at the back and not giving up goals is.
 
So, tonight we have Chile-Peru and tomorrow a rematch of Argentina-Paraguay. Chile-Peru has the potential to be an awesome match. Chile's attack continues to scintillate, but their defense does not inspire. Peru looks pretty good at the back and has some sneaky skill up front. I think both teams will come out and attack and this should be a blast to watch. I'm picking Chile to win 2-1 in an open attacking match. Argentina looked much better in attack against Colombia and Ospina had a crazy good game. Colombia had little to nothing going forward, but Argentina looked fine at the back. Paraguay showed a lot of guts in the Brasil match and they are very well organized, but looked vulnerable in the first 30 minutes of that match. I think Argentina will explode in this game, score one early and Paraguay will be forced to open up. Offensively gifted teams should gel as cups go on and Argentina has the added benefit of seeing how Paraguay defends them from the group stage. I think this benefits Argentina much more than Paraguay and I don't expect this to be close.

 

[slamminsammya]

The point about the greater importance of defending in these national games is well taken. Some thoughts:
 
Yes, I agree that they don't really have any offensive "craques" aside from Neymar, but they are not slouches either as you mentioned. For me, the side should be better at creating.
 
The dropping of Hulk is a mystery to Hulk himself and I can't understand it when you are picking players like Diego Tardelli in the squad.
 
I am interested that you felt the loss of Marcelo was felt, I thought Luis was actually the only player who looked decent in attack for Brazil.
 
I had an opposite impression regarding Alves and Luis. To me one of the issues was that they were getting Alves and Luis forwards, and frequently, but this was their only method of attack. It was like watching Barca from a few years ago where whenever Alves had the ball out wide he invariably crossed it into the box from the touchline, which is a ridiculous strategy whether you are aiming for Messi/Iniesta/Villa or whether you are going for Robinho/Firmino/etc. Against Paraguay, the frustrating pattern was seeing the play go wide, always for Brazil because of their conservative midfield selections, and then seeing no support for them.
 
The issue to my eyes in the Paraguay game was that midfield was providing them with nothing going forward since it was such a conservative choice of the central pairing, which has been an aesthetic issue for a while for Brazil. They want to rightfully launch the wingbacks forwards and so keep a two man pivot with Fernando and Fernandinho. But the quality of the possession was so bad and so many balls were lost out wide that they never really functioned as a proper pivot when in possession. I only ever saw them sliding over to cover for the fullbacks when Paraguay was counterattacking. So yes indeed, why not just play a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2?
 
It was ugly.

 

[Zososoxfan]

I am interested that you felt the loss of Marcelo was felt, I thought Luis was actually the only player who looked decent in attack for Brazil.
 
I had an opposite impression regarding Alves and Luis. To me one of the issues was that they were getting Alves and Luis forwards, and frequently, but this was their only method of attack. It was like watching Barca from a few years ago where whenever Alves had the ball out wide he invariably crossed it into the box from the touchline, which is a ridiculous strategy whether you are aiming for Messi/Iniesta/Villa or whether you are going for Robinho/Firmino/etc. Against Paraguay, the frustrating pattern was seeing the play go wide, always for Brazil because of their conservative midfield selections, and then seeing no support for them.
 
The issue to my eyes in the Paraguay game was that midfield was providing them with nothing going forward since it was such a conservative choice of the central pairing, which has been an aesthetic issue for a while for Brazil. They want to rightfully launch the wingbacks forwards and so keep a two man pivot with Fernando and Fernandinho. But the quality of the possession was so bad and so many balls were lost out wide that they never really functioned as a proper pivot when in possession. I only ever saw them sliding over to cover for the fullbacks when Paraguay was counterattacking. So yes indeed, why not just play a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2?
 
It was ugly.

 
I agree that Luis was fantastic. I really like him as a player and hate Mou even more for sticking him on the bench at Chelsea (along with Cuadrado, another player I like quite a bit). I think Marcelo was a loss in the sense that Brasil could've used more talent on the field and Marcelo could've played as a dedicated MF and provided more going forward than what Brasil actually had (i.e. they could've fielded Alves, Luis, and Marcelo).
 
Your read of Alves and Luis on the attack is spot on. What I meant by playing them in the MF has more to do with their defensive duties. If Alves and Luis had been playing as MF, I would've expected them to either press in the midfield or otherwise modify the defensive shape with the idea of transitioning to attack more quickly.
 
Your last paragraph is really astute analysis as well. It reflects that this Brasil squad had lots of talent, but that it was redundant and lacking in offensive quality. Recognizing this, it would've made a lot of sense to play a high press system to generate turnovers in the attacking third and by extension, offense. Lots of these players already have experience of playing high presses thru their clubs (e.g. Alves) and with their strong defensive players it would've made sense. But again, the decision to play a more conservative style is understandable. But when you name Dunga your coach, it's pretty clear what direction and shape you want the team to take.

 

[blueguitar322]

More home cooking refereeing for Chile. Vidal arguably should have been sent off for shoving Zambrano in the face early in the game, but now Zambrano was just given a straight red (he did have a yellow already, which was also harsh imho) for a clearance in which his cleats ran into Aranguiz's back. It clearly was not malicious, and Zambrano was already pulling his foot back once he saw the collision was inevitable. Morever, Aranguiz didn't challenge for the ball and didn't make any effort to get out of the way.
 
Maybe I'm wrong (I'm no rules expert) but it seems like this game would have gone very differently if it were played anywhere but Santiago. I'm rooting for Chile, but that leaves a bit of a sour taste.

 

[DLew On Roids]

Caitlyn Jenner is having a hell of a month. First Vanity Fair and now she's managing Peru.

 

[Senator Donut]

I just turned on the game and checked the thread. I had no idea Peru were playing with ten the way they were dominating.

And there's the goal!

 

[DannyDarwinism]

Holy shit that was pretty.

 

[DannyDarwinism]

Ha, maybe not!

 

[DannyDarwinism]

But that one was.

 

[blueguitar322]

Vargas with the goal of the tournament to crush Peru's spirit right after they'd drawn level on a Chile own goal

 

[DLew On Roids]

Holy fuckballs.

 

[Cellar-Door]

It'll be sad when Chile win this. The refereeing in this tournament has been so poor and so consistently in their favor that one has to assume some kind of fix.

 

[Zososoxfan]

Questionable reffing or not, that was a fantastic match to watch. At halftime, the Bein sports crew showed that Vargas was offside on the first Chile goal, and that although he did not play the ball before the ball bounced off the post, he "became active" and should've been flagged offisde as the first player to touch the ball after the ricchochet. Blueguitar nailed it the straight red to Zambrano was terrible. Peru played outstanding regardless, and it's a shame we didn't get to see this 11 v. 11. Vargas had a beautiful volley called back wrongly, so it evened out a bit. Valdivia, Vargas, Vidal, and Sanchez are an awesome attacking group. Advincula bombed down the flank and fired in an excellent cross that Medel knocked in for an own goal, for which Advincula deserves a lot of credit. I was really impressed with Bravo too - fundadmentally sound keeper who's really hitting his peak now that he has tightened up his distribution. Spectacular to watch throughout.

In the end, Chile has an awesome team, plays a fun style, and will either play an awesome final against Argentina or will have to unlock a stout Paraguay team. Peru's coach had a very interesting defensive strategy for the fist twenty minutes, of having two banks of four morph into a back 5, with either 4-1 or 3-2 ahead of them (at one point it looked like a defender was directed to follow Valdivia/Vidal even if they picked up the ball at the back), but after the red, Peru changed tactics and you could tell it really hampered their gameplan. Nevertheless, I was very impressed by that Peru performance. If Argentina wins tomorrow, it's hard not to get excited about an open Chile-Argentina final. Paraguay will be formidable though.

 

[Gunfighter 09]

It'll be sad when Chile win this. The refereeing in this tournament has been so poor and so consistently in their favor that one has to assume some kind of fix.

 
My old man just compared this to 1978. Brutal. Peru might have a future though, this is good to see. 

 

[Zomp]

I watched the wiminz tonight but it sounds like Di Maria has been playing well for Argentina.

 

[DLew On Roids]

Your boy Rojo scored the opener, too.

 

[Zomp]

Another great cross to Aguero to make it 5.

 

[DLew On Roids]

I for one am shocked that a team with captained by Roque Santa Cruz isn't getting farther in this tournament.