Season ending PC

RedOctober3829 · Sep 29, 2014

Since when is Will Middlebrooks good enough to dictate what he should do? He should go to winter ball if he is serious about wanting to compete for a job in 2015.

soxhop411 · Sep 29, 2014

absintheofmalaise said:
Thought this might be a good place to put things and we can break out threads as warranted.

Pete Abraham @PeteAbe

Farrell did not endorse the idea of all the #RedSox coaches coming back. Sounds like changes will be made.

I assume this would be about the hitting coach(es)?

bosockboy · Sep 29, 2014

RedOctober3829 said:
Since when is Will Middlebrooks good enough to dictate what he should do? He should go to winter ball if he is serious about wanting to compete for a job in 2015.

Sounds like a play to force his way out of town.

Snoop Soxy Dogg · Sep 29, 2014

bosockboy said:
Sounds like a play to force his way out of town.

More like force his way to Pawtucket. The one thing this does though, is that it really puts the pressure on him to perform to show them they were wrong.

Hank Scorpio · Sep 29, 2014

soxhop411 said:
I assume this would be about the hitting coach(es)?

I saw an article up on ESPN that Greg Colbrunn is undecided if he wants to return, and is leaning towards spending more time with family.

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/11611851/boston-red-sox-hitting-coach-greg-colbrunn-not-return-next-season

Sean McAdam @Sean_McAdam

Middlebrooks has decided no winter ball. While Cherington said players have right spend off-season as they choose, Sox clearly wanted him to

I get that he's within his rights, and who wouldn't want to spend the offseason with Jenny Dell, but between this and his alleged refusal to even consider corrective lenses, I really have to question his committal as a major league player. He's likely to go into spring training with no spot on the 25 man roster, and behind Cecchini in AAA.

Jason Mastrodonato @JMastrodonato

Red Sox OK with internal options at 3B. Don't forget about Brock Holt, Cherington says, "He's made us believe..."

I hope this is some kind of posturing, but as much as I like Holt in the 'bench guy who can play anywhere role', I think the Red Sox can and should do much better in the 3B spot. Unless a major part (Ortiz, Nap, Pedey, X, Betts, Castillo, Yoenis, Vaz) is moving, where else do you add a proven bat?

Jason Mastrodonato @JMastrodonato

John Farrell: "No secret we want to bring Koji back and we'll try to do that."

I'm fine with this, but I think you need to have a backup closer to give him extra days off. Mujica may or may not work out to be that guy - but I'd hope they'd go after someone a bit more stable. I get that Koji gets emotional and animated after closing out a save, but sometimes he looks like he just went 13 rounds with Ivan Drago. He was pitching on fumes last October, and probably for a good portion of this season too.

Pilgrim · Sep 29, 2014

Middlebrooks has had a bad finger all year and probably thinks it's worth more for his career to get entirely healthy than to get some games in winter league.

The guy kind of sucks at baseball but there's no evidence that's due to lack if effort.

DJnVa · Sep 29, 2014

Jason Mastrodonato @JMastrodonato

Red Sox OK with internal options at 3B. Don't forget about Brock Holt, Cherington says, "He's made us believe..."

Eh. Super sub? Sure. Everyday 3B, is that what Cherington means here?

Dude crashed HARD over his last 200 or so PA--OPS below .550

Sausage in Section 17 · Sep 29, 2014

Hank Scorpio said:
He was pitching on fumes last October, and probably for a good portion of this season too.

He totally dominated last October, was ALCS MVP, and I'm not sure they win without him.

I'm not sure about going for the qualifying offer, because if he doesn't pan out that's a big sunk cost. The only thing that gives me pause is his age, and the low velocity on his FB. Other than a dead arm phase at the end of this year, he's been one of, if not the best reliever in the league for most of the last ~ 2 years.

67WasBest · Sep 29, 2014

DrewDawg said:
Eh. Super sub? Sure. Everyday 3B, is that what Cherington means here?

Dude crashed HARD over his last 200 or so PA--OPS below .550

I suspect the thinking is, they have two start of year possibilities in Holt and WoMBat and if neither is established by mid season, they can maybe turn to Cecchini. He's basically saying they're not focused on the position, but if a better option is found or presented, it will be considered. I'm good with that approach assuming the focus will be on front of the rotation starters.

HomeRunBaker · Sep 29, 2014

bosockboy said:
Sounds like a play to force his way out of town.

Precisely. It's time to cut losses and move on. It's best for both player and team......and 12 months in waiting. Just end this nonsense.....bag of balls and all that stuff.

Sox and Rocks · Sep 29, 2014

Hank Scorpio said:
Red Sox OK with internal options at 3B. Don't forget about Brock Holt, Cherington says, "He's made us believe..."

I hope this is some kind of posturing, but as much as I like Holt in the 'bench guy who can play anywhere role', I think the Red Sox can and should do much better in the 3B spot. Unless a major part (Ortiz, Nap, Pedey, X, Betts, Castillo, Yoenis, Vaz) is moving, where else do you add a proven bat?

I caught this, too. It's got to be posturing because Cherrington's stated need for a LH bat can only happen at 3rd given the OF logjam and 1B, 2B, SS, and DH already filled.

It's also coincidental that two of the top 3 3B available this winter happen to be LH.

TomRicardo · Sep 29, 2014

HomeRunBaker said:
Precisely. It's time to cut losses and move on. It's best for both player and team......and 12 months in waiting. Just end this nonsense.....bag of balls and all that stuff.

What losses exactly are you cutting if you put in AAA next year?

Do you have some sort of better depth option?

TomRicardo · Sep 29, 2014

Sox and Rocks said:
I caught this, too. It's got to be posturing because Cherrington's stated need for a LH bat can only happen at 3rd given the OF logjam and 1B, 2B, SS, and DH already filled.

It's also coincidental that two of the top 3 3B available this winter happen to be LH.

There is also Garin Cecchini

HomeRunBaker · Sep 29, 2014

TomRicardo said:
What losses exactly are you cutting if you put in AAA next year?

Do you have some sort of better depth option?

It's apparent to me that he isn't on the same page as us by refusing to play winter ball. He's sucked for two years once the book came out on his and made zero adjustments to compensate. Stubborn in every way imaginable and now essentially telling us he wants out. Nobody with any sense who is fighting for a job be so remiss to our "suggestion" of playing winter ball or succeeding here.

TheoShmeo · Sep 29, 2014

Papelbon's Poutine said:
You'd rather dump him for a bag of balls than send him back to AAA next year and hope he rightens the ship?

If he doesn't want to do winter ball, ok, get yourself healthy Will. When you come to spring training, have a 1B mitt and an OFs glove with you. You're going to be bouncing around in Pawtucket a lot next season.

I think the real answer is the always boring "it depends."

I can see Will being part of a trade in which some team takes note of his prior success and RH power and thinks that a change of scenery will do him good. If he tips the scale or helps facilitate bringing back an attractive get, then I'd rather say good bye to WMB than give him another year in the Sox system -- at any level -- to figure it out.

On the other hand, I agree that giving him away for a bag of balls is pointless for the reasons noted by others.

Red(s)HawksFan · Sep 29, 2014

HomeRunBaker said:
It's apparent to me that he isn't on the same page as us by refusing to play winter ball. He's sucked for two years once the book came out on his and made zero adjustments to compensate. Stubborn in every way imaginable and now essentially telling us he wants out. Nobody with any sense who is fighting for a job be so remiss to our "suggestion" of playing winter ball or succeeding here.

So after playing for 3+ months with a broken finger that apparently never quite healed up, he should continue to play through whatever pain/discomfort that exists to what, get better at hitting with a broken finger?

As noble as it was for him to keep playing and try to right his ship and contribute, he may have been better served sitting out entirely until the finger was 100% (frankly, the same can be said of Napoli). Now he has five months off in which to do that, but instead he should go ahead and keep running straight into the same brick wall for a couple more months?

I don't see the harm in him taking the winter to get fully healthy and try to earn himself a place during spring training. Failing that, he can go to Pawtucket for another year and at worst be roster filler or at best maybe have something click for him that turns him into a valuable contributor to the big league club (via playing or via a trade).

Rovin Romine · Sep 29, 2014

Red(s)HawksFan said:
So after playing for 3+ months with a broken finger that apparently never quite healed up, he should continue to play through whatever pain/discomfort that exists to what, get better at hitting with a broken finger?

As noble as it was for him to keep playing and try to right his ship and contribute, he may have been better served sitting out entirely until the finger was 100% (frankly, the same can be said of Napoli). Now he has five months off in which to do that, but instead he should go ahead and keep running straight into the same brick wall for a couple more months?

I don't see the harm in him taking the winter to get fully healthy and try to earn himself a place during spring training. Failing that, he can go to Pawtucket for another year and at worst be roster filler or at best maybe have something click for him that turns him into a valuable contributor to the big league club (via playing or via a trade).

Agreed. Also, he does not have to take the entire winter off - he may be able to give himself a spring training edge if he starts to get himself into playing shape before reporting day.

Philip Jeff Frye · Sep 29, 2014

DrewDawg said:
Eh. Super sub? Sure. Everyday 3B, is that what Cherington means here?

Dude crashed HARD over his last 200 or so PA--OPS below .550

Holt was obviously one of the few things about the team that made us feel warm and fuzzy during the year and its not a like the season would have been different if what I'm about to say had played out differently, but I wonder if Holt is one of those guys who harms you in the long run because of a hot streak at the right point in his career. He's okay as a utility bench player, but his limitations were certainly exposed as the year went on and his numbers returned to earth. I hope the Sox don't trick themselves into thinking he should be an everyday player at any position.

Pumpsie · Sep 29, 2014

Hank Scorpio said:
I get that he's within his rights, and who wouldn't want to spend the offseason with Jenny Dell, but between this and his alleged refusal to even consider corrective lenses, I really have to question his committal as a major league player. He's likely to go into spring training with no spot on the 25 man roster, and behind Cecchini in AAA.

Red Sox OK with internal options at 3B. Don't forget about Brock Holt, Cherington says, "He's made us believe..."

I hope this is some kind of posturing, but as much as I like Holt in the 'bench guy who can play anywhere role', I think the Red Sox can and should do much better in the 3B spot. Unless a major part (Ortiz, Nap, Pedey, X, Betts, Castillo, Yoenis, Vaz) is moving, where else do you add a proven bat?

The Rangers are trying to move Beltre this offseason. Why not just trade Cespedes for Beltre and have Beltre nail down the corner for the next year or two until Cecchini or someone else is ready? We have Castillo, Betts, Nava, Victorino plus Holt as a super-sub to play outfield. An infield of Beltre, X, Pedey and Nap is a very good one with Vazquez and a vet catcher with the catching duties. I'm just hoping that Craig retires, or something. He's looking like quite the albatross going into next year.

HomeRunBaker · Sep 29, 2014

Red(s)HawksFan said:
So after playing for 3+ months with a broken finger that apparently never quite healed up, he should continue to play through whatever pain/discomfort that exists to what, get better at hitting with a broken finger?

As noble as it was for him to keep playing and try to right his ship and contribute, he may have been better served sitting out entirely until the finger was 100% (frankly, the same can be said of Napoli). Now he has five months off in which to do that, but instead he should go ahead and keep running straight into the same brick wall for a couple more months?

I don't see the harm in him taking the winter to get fully healthy and try to earn himself a place during spring training. Failing that, he can go to Pawtucket for another year and at worst be roster filler or at best maybe have something click for him that turns him into a valuable contributor to the big league club (via playing or via a trade).

If only Ben and the Red Sox medical staff, the ones who work with him every day, had consulted with you on WMB's medical condition then maybe they would have considered this option. (I'm only picking fun please take it as lighthearted)

I don't buy the injury thing at all or else he wouldn't be out there all season. Everyone is banged up and if the team felt he was truly injured there is no way they would want him playing winter ball.

I also disagree that the worst case is he goes to Pawtucket and fails (again)......the worst case is him failing again and taking 600 PA away from young players who could use them. Had he shown me any ability to adjust to ML pitching I'd be at least a little hopeful......he hasn't despite multiple opportunities so I don't.

Edit: If WMB had JBJ/Vazquez defense in him and only had to become even a marginal offensive player to be a plus then I would be more open on extending our time with this player. For WMB to be plus he needs to be a plus offensive player when he's struggled badly for over 2 years in becoming even marginal.

DJnVa · Sep 29, 2014

Pumpsie said:
I'm just hoping that Craig retires, or something. He's looking like quite the albatross going into next year.

Why would Craig retire? He's only 30, coming off an injury-marred year, and just one season removed from Top 20 finishes in the MVP voting in the NL. He sucked this year, but his track record is good (and I mean this from his POV). He's not retiring.

HriniakPosterChild · Sep 29, 2014

Pumpsie said:
The Rangers are trying to move Beltre this offseason. Why not just trade Cespedes for Beltre and have Beltre nail down the corner for the next year or two until Cecchini or someone else is ready? We have Castillo, Betts, Nava, Victorino plus Holt as a super-sub to play outfield. An infield of Beltre, X, Pedey and Nap is a very good one with Vazquez and a vet catcher with the catching duties. I'm just hoping that Craig retires, or something. He's looking like quite the albatross going into next year.

Team sources have suggested they want a LH bat at 3rd, which would rule out Beltre.

JohntheBaptist · Sep 29, 2014

DrewDawg said:
Why would Craig retire? He's only 30, coming off an injury-marred year, and just one season removed from Top 20 finishes in the MVP voting in the NL. He sucked this year, but his track record is good (and I mean this from his POV). He's not retiring.

His contract kind of stretches the definition of "albatross" a bit far, too.

nvalvo · Sep 29, 2014

Pumpsie said:
The Rangers are trying to move Beltre this offseason. Why not just trade Cespedes for Beltre and have Beltre nail down the corner for the next year or two until Cecchini or someone else is ready? We have Castillo, Betts, Nava, Victorino plus Holt as a super-sub to play outfield. An infield of Beltre, X, Pedey and Nap is a very good one with Vazquez and a vet catcher with the catching duties. I'm just hoping that Craig retires, or something. He's looking like quite the albatross going into next year.

Send Craig first to extended Spring Training, then to AAA: he has options. If you have to expose him to optional reassignment waivers, that's fine — there's a small and entirely acceptable chance that he gets claimed, probably by LaRussa's Diamondbacks, in which case, again, that's fine. It's not like we should be so worried about him blocking Travis Shaw or Ryan Lavarnway as Pawtucket's DH.

There is the potential problem of morale, but I think he could be brought on board. If/when he gets his act together, he has a pretty loud bat. We'll know in a hurry. He could be extremely valuable offensive contributor and heir apparent at 1B/DH.

Bergs · Sep 29, 2014

HriniakPosterChild said:
Team sources have suggested they want a LH bat at 3rd, which would rule out Beltre.

Source? There aren't that many right-throwing lefty-hitting dudes out there, and I'm pretty sure the Sox aren't trying to go against pretty much the entirety of baseball history and attempt to get a full time 3rd baseman who throws lefty.

ALiveH · Sep 29, 2014

i just noticed brock holt had 6 of his 7 errors in 37 games (out of 106 played) at 3B.

also, his end of year finish was brutal. hope brock is not the main plan at 3B.

Hank Scorpio · Sep 29, 2014

Bergs said:
Source? There aren't that many right-throwing lefty-hitting dudes out there, and I'm pretty sure the Sox aren't trying to go against pretty much the entirety of baseball history and attempt to get a full time 3rd baseman who throws lefty.

There aren't many solid LH hitting 3B at all, and the best ones won't be available (Carpenter and Seager - at least what a quick look before class tells me, so don't crucify me if I'm wrong on this).

There are, however, two notable switch hitting third basemen, Sandoval and Headley. Both are free agents, and both throw right handed. Headley historically has fairly balanced LH/RH splits and Sandoval has better numbers hitting left handed. I'm expecting them to go after Headley fairly aggressively, preferably on a 1-2 year deal.

Edit: I got Sandoval's splits backwards. He's better as a LH hitter vs RHP. I think he'll absolutely be a target as well. He was terrible vs LHP this year though with a ~.560 OPS. I wonder if they'd keep WMB if he can start hitting lefties again and platoon Sandoval and WMB...

HomeRunBaker · Sep 29, 2014

Hank Scorpio said:
I'm expecting them to go after Headley fairly aggressively, preferably on a 1-2 year deal.

I can see an offer consistent with our max dollars/min years philosophy we've used on stopgaps recently (Vic, Drew, Nap). Would 2/$26m get it done?

Tyrone Biggums · Sep 29, 2014

HomeRunBaker said:
I can see an offer consistent with our max dollars/min years philosophy we've used on stopgaps recently (Vic, Drew, Nap). Would 2/$26m get it done?

I would rather pay Kung Fu Panda at 18 million than Headley at 13. That's just me though. I'm not a fan. I'm still not sure why the Sox wouldn't try Betts at 3rd. Worst case scenario he comes into the spring as your 3B and it doesn't work out thus pushing him to a corner spot in the outfield. You could also always make Xander your 3B and Betts your SS too...

Don Bradman · Sep 29, 2014

Bergs said:
Source? There aren't that many right-throwing lefty-hitting dudes out there, and I'm pretty sure the Sox aren't trying to go against pretty much the entirety of baseball history and attempt to get a full time 3rd baseman who throws lefty.

19 third basemen had at least 100 ABs in the majors this year. Its not an unusual player at all.

HriniakPosterChild · Sep 29, 2014

Bergs said:
Source? There aren't that many right-throwing lefty-hitting dudes out there, and I'm pretty sure the Sox aren't trying to go against pretty much the entirety of baseball history and attempt to get a full time 3rd baseman who throws lefty.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/09/28/red-sox-roster-heading-into-offseason/74bDNucQbc3KdSA9pvsShM/story.html

DennyDoyle'sBoil · Sep 29, 2014

HomeRunBaker said:
I can see an offer consistent with our max dollars/min years philosophy we've used on stopgaps recently (Vic, Drew, Nap). Would 2/$26m get it done?

You never know how markets will emerge, but it seems to me that Headley is either going to get his free agent payday and sign for 4 years, or he's going to have to sign a pillow contract. A 2-year deal seems like something he'd want to stay away from. I'm guessing someone is going to give him a 4 year deal, but it could be that's because I said that somewhere in these forums 2 months ago and so I'm being stubborn. His last 3 years are 7.2, 3.6, and 4.2 wins (fgraphs) and he's 30 years old. Yes, much of his value is in his glove, but I think he has proven the ability to play above replacement level in both leagues, and I just can't see a free agent like that, not saddled with a qualifying offer, not being attractive enough to get a 4 year deal.

On the list of left hitting 3Bs who will be FAs, it seems like only Panda and Headley. I guess I can see why the FO is saying they are going to roll the dice with what they have in the system already. The options for signing a 3B that's a significant upgrade from what they already have come with $15m price tags per year. There's really no in-between out there, unless it's a trade.

As for the lefty righty thing, can we solve the problem with a left-handed hitting backup catcher? Those are even more rare than left hitting 3Bs. The guy with the funny last name in St. Louis is a free agent, I think.

jscola85 · Sep 29, 2014

Tyrone Biggums said:
I would rather pay Kung Fu Panda at 18 million than Headley at 13. That's just me though. I'm not a fan. I'm still not sure why the Sox wouldn't try Betts at 3rd. Worst case scenario he comes into the spring as your 3B and it doesn't work out thus pushing him to a corner spot in the outfield. You could also always make Xander your 3B and Betts your SS too...

Any particular preference for one over the other? I know more of Headley's value is tied up in his glove, but even by the eye test and scout's lense, it's pretty clear he is a very good defender at 3rd. Additionally, while his bat wasn't quite as strong as Panda's this year, they've had basically identical production over the last 5 years on average - Headley has a wRC+ of 117, Sandoval is at 116.

Lastly, it would seem Headley should age better. He strikes out more than Pablo but also walks significantly more and has a less dramatic career platoon split. Headley is almost certainly a better baserunner and his body type leaves a lot less questions about aging too.

The three big points in Panda's favor are that he is coming off a better year at the plate, he's two years younger, and he has a bit more pop in his bat when he makes contact. I would counter by saying that Headley's numbers with the Yankees show he's "still got it", his body type better offset age issues, and the pop issue is overblown given we're probably talking 2-3 more HRs a year for Sandoval going forward vs. Headley.

EDIT - spelling

mauidano · Sep 29, 2014

Anyone else surprised about the Sleep Apnea thing and Napoli? First I've heard about it. THAT was a Press Conference issue? Hmmm.

I deal with it and the CPAP. It does make a difference in your day if you have a good night sleep.

HomeRunBaker · Sep 29, 2014

mauidano said:
Anyone else surprised about the Sleep Apnea thing and Napoli? First I've heard about it. THAT was a Press Conference issue? Hmmm.

I deal with it and the CPAP. It does make a difference in your day if you have a good night sleep.

Maybe Napoli has a hot girlfriend. #van #youk

Drek717 · Sep 30, 2014

Tyrone Biggums said:
I would rather pay Kung Fu Panda at 18 million than Headley at 13. That's just me though. I'm not a fan. I'm still not sure why the Sox wouldn't try Betts at 3rd. Worst case scenario he comes into the spring as your 3B and it doesn't work out thus pushing him to a corner spot in the outfield. You could also always make Xander your 3B and Betts your SS too...

Betts made so many throwing errors when he first joined the org. and was playing SS that the club moved him off post-haste. Why do people keep bringing it up as an option? If he could play short he'd have taken at least some time there in recent history. He doesn't have the arm. If the club doesn't want to try him at 3B it's probably because they don't think he has the arm for that position either.

nvalvo said:
Send Craig first to extended Spring Training, then to AAA: he has options. If you have to expose him to optional reassignment waivers, that's fine — there's a small and entirely acceptable chance that he gets claimed, probably by LaRussa's Diamondbacks, in which case, again, that's fine. It's not like we should be so worried about him blocking Travis Shaw or Ryan Lavarnway as Pawtucket's DH.

There is the potential problem of morale, but I think he could be brought on board. If/when he gets his act together, he has a pretty loud bat. We'll know in a hurry. He could be extremely valuable offensive contributor and heir apparent at 1B/DH.

They aren't sending a healthy Allen Craig to AAA next year. He's their new Carp/Gomes rolled into one.

The overall best roster construction option would be to move one of Cespedes or Victorino, have Castillo in CF, Cespedes/Vic in RF, and Nava/Craig platooning in LF. Betts is the super sub 4th OF who plays some 2B. Brock Holt is the super sub IF who is also your 5th OF.

Long term roster flexibility would say the best strategy would probably be moving Cespedes this off-season, but their ability to flip him after having just traded for him could be difficult (and get worthwhile value in the process at least). He also provides a lot of power and is a damn good athlete on the bases. I could see him being the Ortiz replacement at DH, which would free up an OF spot making him more valuable to retain.

Tyrone Biggums · Sep 30, 2014

Drek717 said:
Betts made so many throwing errors when he first joined the org. and was playing SS that the club moved him off post-haste. Why do people keep bringing it up as an option? If he could play short he'd have taken at least some time there in recent history. He doesn't have the arm. If the club doesn't want to try him at 3B it's probably because they don't think he has the arm for that position either.

They aren't sending a healthy Allen Craig to AAA next year. He's their new Carp/Gomes rolled into one.

The overall best roster construction option would be to move one of Cespedes or Victorino, have Castillo in CF, Cespedes/Vic in RF, and Nava/Craig platooning in LF. Betts is the super sub 4th OF who plays some 2B. Brock Holt is the super sub IF who is also your 5th OF.

Long term roster flexibility would say the best strategy would probably be moving Cespedes this off-season, but their ability to flip him after having just traded for him could be difficult (and get worthwhile value in the process at least). He also provides a lot of power and is a damn good athlete on the bases. I could see him being the Ortiz replacement at DH, which would free up an OF spot making him more valuable to retain.

Mookie Betts is 21 years old. One would think that he is not a finished product. Again, it doesn't hurt to try him out there in camp. A whole offseason working with a guy like Butterfield could help him out quite a bit. Betts came into the organization as a SS so one would probably figure that at some point in his life he has played the position with a half way decent glove. I would like to see if he can play 3rd though. Zero harm in trying him out at either spot, the worst case scenario is that he's a butcher and goes back to the outfield.

As for Panda vs Headley, Panda has a much better bat and solid athletic ability for his size. I do not think he's going to get a long term deal in free agency due to his weight. However, if it's between those two options you have to go with Kung Fu Panda all day. Hopefully there are other options on the table since both of those are pretty lack luster.

Savin Hillbilly · Sep 30, 2014

Tyrone Biggums said:
As for Panda vs Headley, Panda has a much better bat and solid athletic ability for his size. I do not think he's going to get a long term deal in free agency due to his weight. However, if it's between those two options you have to go with Kung Fu Panda all day. Hopefully there are other options on the table since both of those are pretty lack luster.

Boy, are you hard to please. Panda and Headley are well above average players, arguably both in the top 10 3Bs in baseball. Other than obviously implausible trade targets like Miggy, Rendon and Seager, who's out there that is superior enough to those "lack luster" guys that it would be worth giving up significant talent for them?

geoduck no quahog · Sep 30, 2014

I'm beginning to feel bad for Mookie and bemoan why so many on SOSH want to fuck around with him.

He's the only legitimate lead off hitter on the current roster.

He's a 2B forced to play CF.

Now some people want to move him to (pick one): RF, SS, 3B, Bench

I'm not sure turning him into the Red Sox version of Ben Zobrist is best for Mookie.

Maybe they should trade him to Maddon.

Plympton91 · Sep 30, 2014

Drek717 said:
Betts made so many throwing errors when he first joined the org. and was playing SS that the club moved him off post-haste. Why do people keep bringing it up as an option? If he could play short he'd have taken at least some time there in recent history. He doesn't have the arm. If the club doesn't want to try him at 3B it's probably because they don't think he has the arm for that position either.

I agree in principle, especially because he made some quite erratic throws from the outfield this season. But, at the same time, this is the type of thinking that led to David Eckstein being DFAed by the Red Sox a year before he was the starting shortstop on a world series champion Angels team. Just because a guy doesn't "have the arm" for SS or 3B at 18 years old doesn't mean they can't learn the position at 22 or 23. They're professional athletes with 12 hours a day to practice; they can become competent if you let them.

Drek717 said:
They aren't sending a healthy Allen Craig to AAA next year. He's their new Carp/Gomes rolled into one.

The overall best roster construction option would be to move one of Cespedes or Victorino, have Castillo in CF, Cespedes/Vic in RF, and Nava/Craig platooning in LF. Betts is the super sub 4th OF who plays some 2B. Brock Holt is the super sub IF who is also your 5th OF.

Until he struggles, Betts is the everyday leadoff hitter. What position he plays in the field to make that a reality is secondary.

I think the relevant sample size for Craig is 2014; that's the player he is now. Craig was significantly worse against lefthanders than Brock Holt is in his career (the right sample size for Holt) and Craig is massive liability in LF whereas Holt showed above average potential in the outfield. Right now, Craig is not Carp/Gomes, he's Bob Bailey circa 1978 or Grady Sizemore circa 2012. They cannot afford to carry Craig as a backup DH who hits .175 on a team with just 4 bench players, they just can't. In those days of 4 man rotations and 10 man pitching staffs, you could carry a guy who only got 70 at bats all season in hopes that you'd catch a glimpse of his former glory, but now you can't.

I'd be offering to pay 1/2 of Craig's remaining contract and take nothing in return to see if some other team thinks they have the pixie dust necessary to heal his foot, and in reality his decline started before the foot injury.

Drek717 said:
Long term roster flexibility would say the best strategy would probably be moving Cespedes this off-season, but their ability to flip him after having just traded for him could be difficult (and get worthwhile value in the process at least). He also provides a lot of power and is a damn good athlete on the bases. I could see him being the Ortiz replacement at DH, which would free up an OF spot making him more valuable to retain.

They aren't going to be replacing Ortiz until at least 2018, and Cespedes last 2 seasons average would be a 100 point OPS drop from Ortiz's worst season of the past 4. When Ortiz decides to hang it up, I'd hope they could find a Victor Martinez type to take his place, i.e., another high-OBP slugger. Just because the rest of baseball seems to have lost its mind and decided that putting professional outmakers in the middle of their lineup is a good idea, doesn't mean the Red Sox should.

OptimusPapi · Sep 30, 2014

Not a bad idea. Let's ignore Craigs entire career and the fact he is just 30 and give him away.

Plympton91 · Sep 30, 2014

OptimusPapi said:
Not a bad idea. Let's ignore Craigs entire career and the fact he is just 30 and give him away.

Last I checked, Craig's entire career included 2014, as well as the injury in 2013 that was described by our resident orthopedic specialist as "often requiring surgery that would be incompatible with a continued career as a major league outfielder."

So, go ahead and beat the tar out of that strawman with $30 million left on the bill.

OptimusPapi · Sep 30, 2014

The boards orthopedic surgeon is probably better then the sox doctors who have seen X rays and documents pertaining to that injury. Good point. I still think we keep Craig in a bench role and see what he has left. Many players have a down season or an injured season and rebound. I would rather roll the dice on that possibility then to pay someone to take him.

Savin Hillbilly · Sep 30, 2014

Plympton91 said:
They aren't going to be replacing Ortiz until at least 2018, and Cespedes last 2 seasons average would be a 100 point OPS drop from Ortiz's worst season of the past 4.

"At least"?!?

Certainly it's conceivable that Ortiz could continue to be our full-time DH through his age 41 year. But suggesting that that's the earliest he'll be hanging up the spikes seems absurd. It would be more reasonable to say "They'll be replacing Ortiz by 2018, if not sooner."

CaskNFappin · Sep 30, 2014

OptimusPapi said:
The boards orthopedic surgeon is probably better then the sox doctors who have seen X rays and documents pertaining to that injury. Good point. I still think we keep Craig in a bench role and see what he has left. Many players have a down season or an injured season and rebound. I would rather roll the dice on that possibility then to pay someone to take him.

But....but.....it's so much easier to latch on to the argument he's cooked, this way he can commence to forecasting future rosters with much prospect humping and hypothetical 3 way platoons.

Craig was one of the best hitters in baseball a year ago. One year. I'm willing to eat crow if some R&R doesn't make him a valuable player next year and he continues this downward trend. I know the organization makes some bonehead moves, but playing him on a career destroying injury for the rest of the year seems too stupid. It's far more likely that a change of scenery and last offseason's altered regimen made him uncomfortable all 2014. Let's hit the refresh button before we go trading away a relatively cost controlled MVP candidate for nothing!

Stanley Steamer · Sep 30, 2014

CaskNFappin said:
But....but.....it's so much easier to latch on to the argument he's cooked, this way he can commence to forecasting future rosters with much prospect humping and hypothetical 3 way platoons.

I think we should see what, beyond Craig, it takes to get a Stanton deal done.

Eddie Jurak · Sep 30, 2014

Plympton91 said:
Until he struggles, Betts is the everyday leadoff hitter. What position he plays in the field to make that a reality is secondary.

I think the relevant sample size for Craig is 2014; that's the player he is now. Craig was significantly worse against lefthanders than Brock Holt is in his career (the right sample size for Holt) and Craig is massive liability in LF whereas Holt showed above average potential in the outfield. Right now, Craig is not Carp/Gomes, he's Bob Bailey circa 1978 or Grady Sizemore circa 2012. They cannot afford to carry Craig as a backup DH who hits .175 on a team with just 4 bench players, they just can't. In those days of 4 man rotations and 10 man pitching staffs, you could carry a guy who only got 70 at bats all season in hopes that you'd catch a glimpse of his former glory, but now you can't.

I'd be offering to pay 1/2 of Craig's remaining contract and take nothing in return to see if some other team thinks they have the pixie dust necessary to heal his foot, and in reality his decline started before the foot injury.

I agree, Betts needs to be leading off.

As for Craig, he has an option left and he was terrible enough in 2014 that he should have no claim to a major league job. However, given the option I'm not quite willing to just write him off. Send him down and see if he can learn to hit again sans foot. $26 million is a lot of money for nothing, but even assuming you could get a team to bite on Craig for $13 million, I think I'd rather spend that $13 MM on the lottery ticket that he figures it out in the minors.

Eddie Jurak · Sep 30, 2014

Stanley Steamer said:
I think we should see what, beyond Craig, it takes to get a Stanton deal done.

It would take Craig and Carlos Rivero and Dan Butler and Drake Britton and Dalier Hinojosa (from Cuba). At least.

OptimusPapi · Sep 30, 2014

Eddie Jurak said:
It would take Craig and Carlos Rivero and Dan Butler and Drake Britton and Dalier Hinojosa (from Cuba). At least.

That's a joke right?

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