Shane the Giant: 3/$12.35m, $4.75m gtd

TheoShmeo

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The primary focus of most fans this off season is on Darrelle Revis, and understandably so.  It's hard to argue that the return of any player who is unsigned or has a contract that is not viable without adjustment is any more important than Revis.  It's not even close.
 
I think Devin McCourty is the next biggest concern for most Pats fans and again, I think that's pretty understandable given McCourty's skill set and the emergence of the Pats' secondary.
 
Shane Vereen is probably next on the list for many (though some would argue for Ghost or Connolly) but, at the same time, it seems like the prevailing view is that (a) BB doesn't spend a lot on RBs so there's a real risk that Shane will move on and (b) if Shane does move on, it's no big deal in that his skill set can likely be replaced fairly easily.
 
The first assumption is what it is and seems accurate.  I want to challenge the second assumption or at least make some of the arguments related to it and see what others think.
 
First, let's look at the current roster and who would step into the third down/pass catching role (recognizing that Vereen saw plenty of first downs and carried the ball more times than any other Patriots RB this season (96 times)).  In any event, the only current Pat who seems like a candidate is James White.  White, as we know, only dressed a few times this year and didn't do much in limited carries during the regular season, much less the pre-season.  More than one non-hysterical commentator wondered whether he has the speed or size to succeed in the NFL.  He is, at best, a large question mark.  There might RBs who look like Vereen in college who the Pats might draft or who are available on the free agent market.  Danny Woodhead was rather effective and the Pats picked him up from seemingly out of nowhere (though deliciously, from the Jets).  Maybe they can just do that again.  
 
Second, let's look at Vereen's regular season numbers.  His primary role was as a receiver and he caught 52 balls and had an 8.6 yards per catch average, with three TDs.  He was 4th on the team in receptions behind only Edelman, Gronk and LaFell.  The next two were Amendola and Wright, who had 27 an 26 catches, respectively.  As a receiver, Vereen was clearly part of Brady's core, and unlike Amendola and Wright, his production was relatively constant throughout the season.  As a runner, given the Ridley injury and the late emergence of Blount, Vereen actually lead the team in carries and averaged 4.1 yards per attempt, nothing to sneeze at.  Now many of those runs were change of pace and out of what appeared to be passing sets, but you are what the numbers say you are, for the most part.  But I think it's instructive on some level that Vereen and Ridley had virtually the same amount of carries (Ridley had 94) and Vereen averaged half a yard more per attempt than Ridley.  Vereen benefitted from improved play as the season wore on from the offensive line, to be sure.
 
Third, let's look at Vereen's Super Bowl numbers and performance.  As most here know, Vereen lead the Pats with 11 catches and had several key first downs.  He also caught one pass one handed that was thrown high on the Pats second to last TD drive.  It's a happy footnote now but that ball could have easily been tipped up in the air and intercepted.  Kudos to Vereen for coming down with it.  He also came up with one pass earlier in the game that was fairly low. 
 
But, to me, the numbers and those two more difficult catches don't tell the whole story.  My view is that it says a lot about Vereen, Brady's trust in him and his value to the team that in the last game of the season, against a very good and aggressive defense, Vereen became a centerpiece of the short passing offense and was able to execute it flawlessly.  I don't believe he had any drops.  When it counted the most, Vereen was one of the core of four offensive skill players that the Pats featured.
 
Last, an overlooked and arguably difficult to quantify aspect of Vereen's game is as a blocker.  I'm sure he got beat at times but I don't remember all that many plays when Brady got blown up and it appeared to be at the expense of Shane Vereen.  It almost certainly happened over the course of a 19 game season (it's nice to be able to drop that reference), but it wasn't a frequent occurrence.  Brady, BB, Josh and Fears clearly don't view him as a liability in that category.
 
Presumably, someone else could step into Vereen's role and I may be suffering from some recency bias when I focus on the Super Bowl and Vereen's role in the glorious outcome of that game.  On the other hand, I think replacing him might well prove harder than some seem to be assuming.  
 
But fire away, I'd love to read others' views on this.
 
(And mods, if this should be its own thread -- I debated and decided that it fit well in this thread -- please make it so.) 
 

tims4wins

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Great post Theo. The "passing back" in the Pats offense is a very important role - different routes, ability to flex out wide, ability to run both between the tackles and outside, and maybe most importantly blitz pickup. So I fully appreciate the value of a guy like Vereen and how crucial he is to the Pats offense.
 
That said, they basically picked up his predecessor off the street to replace Faulk, and that guy has had a few good years in the NFL too (Woodhead, of course). And then Vereen took over the role. So I guess where I am going is that if the position is that difficult, why have the Pats been able to turn it over so successfully (unlike, for instance, WR).
 
I'd love Vereen back, but he may be a luxury. And of course it is hard to know how good White is / how much faith the Pats have in him. Plus there are reports that this is a deep RB draft class, so a Vereen replacement could be had in the 3rd or 4th round.
 
I don't know enough about any of this to be convinced either way. Given the importance of Revis and McCourty, we may have to be ok with watching him walk away.
 
Vereen vs. Ghost as more important FA would be an interesting debate.
 

RedOctober3829

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tims4wins said:
Great post Theo. The "passing back" in the Pats offense is a very important role - different routes, ability to flex out wide, ability to run both between the tackles and outside, and maybe most importantly blitz pickup. So I fully appreciate the value of a guy like Vereen and how crucial he is to the Pats offense.
 
That said, they basically picked up his predecessor off the street to replace Faulk, and that guy has had a few good years in the NFL too (Woodhead, of course). And then Vereen took over the role. So I guess where I am going is that if the position is that difficult, why have the Pats been able to turn it over so successfully (unlike, for instance, WR).
 
I'd love Vereen back, but he may be a luxury. And of course it is hard to know how good White is / how much faith the Pats have in him. Plus there are reports that this is a deep RB draft class, so a Vereen replacement could be had in the 3rd or 4th round.
 
I don't know enough about any of this to be convinced either way. Given the importance of Revis and McCourty, we may have to be ok with watching him walk away.
 
Vereen vs. Ghost as more important FA would be an interesting debate.
Good post.  I'd also love Vereen back, but he might end up pricing himself out of Foxboro. 
 
As far as Ghost, my ultimate scenario is for them to re-sign Revis, re-sign McCourty without having to use the tag, then franchise Ghost with the ability to negotiate until July to work out a longer term deal to lower that cap number.
 

Super Nomario

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TheoShmeo said:
Shane Vereen is probably next on the list for many (though some would argue for Ghost or Connolly) but, at the same time, it seems like the prevailing view is that (a) BB doesn't spend a lot on RBs so there's a real risk that Shane will move on
You talked about b), but I think a) is worth challenging, too. Under BB, the Patriots have drafted RBs at roughly a league-average rate, with one first-rounder (Maroney), a second (Vereen), and two thirds (J.R. Redmond and Ridley) compared to league averages of 1.2, 1.2, and 1.1 - basically identical. They also traded a second for Corey Dillon. They haven't paid big bucks to any RBs, but they've given substantial contracts to Antowain Smith, Dillon, and Faulk. I don't think the Patriots really value RBs a lot less than most other teams.
 
The Pats have been all over the place with RBs, really. Smith, Dillon, and lesser lights like Taylor and Morris were at the end of the line. Blount was a reclamation project (twice) though younger. Maroney, Vereen, Ridley, and Faulk (drafted earlier) were fairly high picks. Green-Ellis, Gray, and Woodhead were scrap-heap guys. I guess the one constant is not drafting (or getting much out of) 4th-7th-round RBs: James White is already #2 in career rushing yards in that group, and needs just 22 yards to pass Cedric Cobbs for #1.
 
TheoShmeo said:
and (b) if Shane does move on, it's no big deal in that his skill set can likely be replaced fairly easily.
 
The first assumption is what it is and seems accurate.  I want to challenge the second assumption or at least make some of the arguments related to it and see what others think.
 
First, let's look at the current roster and who would step into the third down/pass catching role (recognizing that Vereen saw plenty of first downs and carried the ball more times than any other Patriots RB this season (96 times)).  In any event, the only current Pat who seems like a candidate is James White.  White, as we know, only dressed a few times this year and didn't do much in limited carries during the regular season, much less the pre-season. More than one non-hysterical commentator wondered whether he has the speed or size to succeed in the NFL.  He is, at best, a large question mark.  There might RBs who look like Vereen in college who the Pats might draft or who are available on the free agent market.  Danny Woodhead was rather effective and the Pats picked up from seemingly out of nowhere (though deliciously, from the Jets).  Maybe they can just do that again.
White didn't do much, but neither did Vereen his rookie year (0 catches, just 57 rushing yards). That doesn't mean White will become Vereen of course, but I suspect receiving RB is one of the most complicated positions on the team - you need to know basically everything the RBs know, everything the WRs know, and the pass blocking schemes and blitz pickup. So while White might not be the answer (and, let's face it, most 4th-rounders fail), I'm skeptical they can draft someone and just plug them in day one.
 
TheoShmeo said:
Second, let's look at Vereen's regular season numbers.  His primary role was as a receiver and he caught 52 balls and had an 8.6 yards per catch average, with three TDs.  He was 4th on the team in receptions behind only Edelman, Gronk and LaFell.  The next two were Amendola and Wright, who had 27 an 26 catches, respectively.  As a receiver, Vereen was clearly part of Brady's core, and unlike Amendola and Wright, his production was relatively constant throughout the season.  As a runner, given the Ridley injury and the late emergence of Blount, Vereen actually lead the team in carries and averaged 4.1 yards per attempt, nothing to sneeze at.  Now many of those runs were change of pace and out of what appeared to be passing sets, but you are what the numbers say you are, for the most part.  But I think it's instructive on some level that Vereen and Ridley had virtually the same amount of carries (Ridley had 94) and Vereen averaged half a yard more per attempt than Ridley.  Vereen benefitted from improved play as the season wore on from the offensive line, to be sure.
 
Third, let's look at Vereen's Super Bowl numbers and performance.  As most here know, Vereen lead the Pats with 11 catches and had several key first downs.  He also caught one pass one handed that was thrown high on the Pats second to last TD drive.  It's a happy footnote now but that ball could have easily been tipped up in the air and intercepted.  Kudos to Vereen for coming down with it.  He also came up with one pass earlier in the game that was fairly low. 
 
But, to me, the numbers and those two more difficult catches don't tell the whole story.  My view is that it says a lot about Vereen, Brady's trust in him and his value to the team that in the last game of the season, against a very good and aggressive defense, Vereen became a centerpiece of the short passing offense and was able to execute it flawlessly.  I don't believe he had any drops.  When it counted the most, Vereen was one of the core of four offensive skill players that the Pats featured.
Vereen was the fourth banana in the Patriots passing game most of the year, but I think the nature of the offense is such that the fourth banana is important. The Patriots don't have elite wideouts that can beat really good corners one-on-one; they rely on combinations and matchups much of the time. In the Super Bowl, Sherman shut down one side and Seattle largely limited Gronkowski with zones. If the Patriots couldn't turn to Vereen they would have really struggled to move the ball. Vereen produced, and in turn, his production opened things up for others - Thomas came down in the box to cover Vereen on Gronk's TD, leaving Chancellor as the only high safety with K.J. Wright one-on-one on Gronk.
 

Stitch01

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Vereen was obviously great in the Super Bowl, I don't think his receiving skills are 100% replaceable, and agree that White is a pretty big unknown.  Vereen played a full season for the first time this year, which was nice.  He knows the offense and, in the right sort of matchup is a very effective player.
 
The issues to me with retaining him are
1) He's not good at actually running the football and breaking contact between the tackles, which limits his role and reduces his effectiveness.  PFF would have him in the bottom quartile of elusive running backs if he qualified. 
2) His receiving skills are good, but not great.  He had a close to league worst drop rate in 2013 and was middle of the pack this year.  He doesn't break tackles.  He's not elite at making guys miss.
3) Not sure Id say his production was constant over the course of the season.  He didn't do very much between the Lions game and the Super Bowl.   A lot of that was matchup related, of course, but that's one of the issues with paying Vereen, he's a niche player.
 
As for blocking, hard for me to evaluate but PFF had him middle of the pack in terms of pass block efficiency and next to last in the league in terms of percentage pass plays spent blocking for whatever that's worth (Woodhead rarely pass blocked as well, so decent chance its just the role in the offense rather than skill set)
 
(PFF stuff is all counting stats, so shouldn't have the usual grading concerns I don't think)
 
So, to me, Vereen is a good, niche player that is very valuable in certain matchups and who would be very nice to have on the team next year, but Im not sure he's going to be worth paying like a good full time back if the market values him as such given that his body of work suggest he has skill limitations that prevent him from being a full time back.  The Pats didn't pay Woodhead who was, IMO, a more effective player during his tenure than Vereen was during his time here.  They don't have Vereen available to plug in as a replacement so its not an apples-to-apples decision comparison, but my gut says that the Pats don't pay up and Vereen is gone   That loss will weaken the offense, all else equal, but I think the Pats will be able to work around it enough through finding a replacement/tweaking the offense so that its not a material blow to their 2015 chances
 

Super Nomario

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Stitch01 said:
So, to me, Vereen is a good, niche player that is very valuable in certain matchups and who would be very nice to have on the team next year, but Im not sure he's going to be worth paying like a good full time back if the market values him as such given that his body of work suggest he has skill limitations that prevent him from being a full time back.  The Pats didn't pay Woodhead who was, IMO, a more effective player during his tenure than Vereen was during his time here.  They don't have Vereen available to plug in as a replacement so its not an apples-to-apples decision comparison, but my gut says that the Pats don't pay up and Vereen is gone   That loss will weaken the offense, all else equal, but I think the Pats will be able to work around it enough through finding a replacement/tweaking the offense so that its not a material blow to their 2015 chances
For what it's worth, Belichick draws a pretty bright line between the receiving skill set of Vereen and that of Woodhead:
 
 
Q: Are there certain routes that White runs that are similar to what maybe Danny Woodhead and Kevin Faulk ran in the past? 
 
BB: Well, I'd say more similarities with Kevin and Shane [Vereen]. Danny was really more of a runner. Not that he didn't catch some passes, but I'd say his pass catching was more screens and checkdowns as opposed to elusive-type routes. Smaller guys that maybe play a little bigger than their size in space – that's common. 
Vereen (and Faulk before him) is a guy who can go in the slot and run option routes; I don't think they really did that with Woodhead. So while Woodhead was a useful player, I suspect Vereen's skill set is more difficult to replace.
 

bsj

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I love Vereen but he'll want to get paid, and he will...he'll get a big contract and then shrivel away on a team that doesn't use him correctly.

Keep Revis, keep McCourty. If VEREEN and Vince are willing to take team friendly deals, they stay. Otherwise, they are far more replaceable than the DB.
 

Stitch01

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Yup that's fair, although Woodhead was more effective when actually running/getting the ball thrown to him. 
 

dynomite

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Very good posts in here -- should probably be split into a Vereen thread.

Super Nomario said:
 White didn't do much, but neither did Vereen his rookie year (0 catches, just 57 rushing yards). That doesn't mean White will become Vereen of course, but I suspect receiving RB is one of the most complicated positions on the team - you need to know basically everything the RBs know, everything the WRs know, and the pass blocking schemes and blitz pickup. So while White might not be the answer (and, let's face it, most 4th-rounders fail), I'm skeptical they can draft someone and just plug them in day one.
This is exactly right. Indeed, even in Vereen's 2nd season, do you know how many passes he caught? 8. These guys take time to develop.
 
Super Nomario said:
Vereen was the fourth banana in the Patriots passing game most of the year, but I think the nature of the offense is such that the fourth banana is important. The Patriots don't have elite wideouts that can beat really good corners one-on-one; they rely on combinations and matchups much of the time. In the Super Bowl, Sherman shut down one side and Seattle largely limited Gronkowski with zones. If the Patriots couldn't turn to Vereen they would have really struggled to move the ball.
And this is crucial as well. Vereen had an incredible Super Bowl. Really amazing, and something that should stay in his highlight reel forever.... That said, the Super Bowl represented his season highs in targets (12) and catches (11) against a defense that was taking away pretty much everything else.

While I love Vereen, I think the 2015 Patriots have more pressing priorities than retaining a 3rd down RB, even one who was as reliable as Vereen this year.

What if the Patriots sign someone like Chris Ogbonnaya (23+ catches '11-'13)? Would folks be comfortable going into next season with him and White/Bolden as the only other pass catching RBs?
 
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I loved Vereen too, and he had a nice Super Bowl. But he hardly got any YAC on those 11 receptions - blame Seattle's terrific tackling for that, definitely, but there were times I was urging Shane to, ya know, GO! - and, for the record, that tremendous one-handed snare was indeed great, but essentially intercepted a ball that would likely have fallen into the hands of Edelman, for whom the pass was arguably intended.

I would love to re-sign Shane at a team-friendly rate, but I think he deserves his chance to secure his grandchildren's future. I wouldn't be stunned to see him get it in Houston, where BOB might actually NOT screw up the best way to utilize a guy with his skill-set.
 

Tony C

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Stitch01 said:
 
2) His receiving skills are good, but not great.  He had a close to league worst drop rate in 2013 and was middle of the pack this year. 
 
I largely agree that Vereen likely won't be worth the  money, but to be fair that drop rate in 2013 came when playing with a cast on his wrist....significant factor.
 

Stitch01

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Its fair, but it was only average this year and we only have two real seasons of data due to injury/role. He's a guy that is good at getting open, but isn't particularly sure handed or elusive once he has the ball. Would like to have him back, but seems ripe for pay above a Pats offer.
 

ivanvamp

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bsj said:
I love Vereen but he'll want to get paid, and he will...he'll get a big contract and then shrivel away on a team that doesn't use him correctly.

Keep Revis, keep McCourty. If VEREEN and Vince are willing to take team friendly deals, they stay. Otherwise, they are far more replaceable than the DB.
 
Who will get paid more:  Vereen or Reggie Bush?  Bush will likely be cut by the Lions as he was due to make 3.25 million in 2015.  
 
2015 Numbers….
 
- Bush:  12 g, 76 rushes, 297 yds, 3.9 ypc, 40 rec, 253 yds, 6.3 ypc, 2 total TD
- Vereen:  16 g, 96 rushes, 391 yds, 4.1 ypc, 52 rec, 477 yds, 8.6 ypc, 5 total TD
 
2015 Average Game...
 
- Bush:  6.3 rushes, 24.8 yds, 3.3 rec, 21.1 yds
- Vereen:  6.0 rushes, 24.4 yds, 3.3 rec, 29.8 yds
 

theapportioner

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ivanvamp said:
 
Who will get paid more:  Vereen or Reggie Bush?  Bush will likely be cut by the Lions as he was due to make 3.25 million in 2015.  
 
2015 Numbers….
 
- Bush:  12 g, 76 rushes, 297 yds, 3.9 ypc, 40 rec, 253 yds, 6.3 ypc, 2 total TD
- Vereen:  16 g, 96 rushes, 391 yds, 4.1 ypc, 52 rec, 477 yds, 8.6 ypc, 5 total TD
 
2015 Average Game...
 
- Bush:  6.3 rushes, 24.8 yds, 3.3 rec, 21.1 yds
- Vereen:  6.0 rushes, 24.4 yds, 3.3 rec, 29.8 yds
 
Bush had a down year, but per season throughout his career, he has also averaged many more rushing yards, and somewhat comparable receiving yards to Vereen. I don't quite understand why people think Vereen will be an expensive sign.
 
Edit: Danny Woodhead got a 2 year, $3.5 million contract from the Chargers, with a $1 million signing bonus. What's the basis for Vereen getting much more than that on the open market? How much should the Patriots offer him? I think 3/$6-7 million is a very fair offer for Shane's services.  
 

TheoShmeo

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For what it's worth, Reiss posits in his most recent mailbag on ESPN Boston that Donald Brown's deal with the Chargers -- 3 years, $10.5 mm, $4 years guaranteed -- is likely the floor for Vereen.
 

Phragle

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We could be overestimating his market. Evan Silva has Vereen just ahead of Ridley as his 7th best FA RB.

1. DeMarco Murray
2. C.J. Spiller
3. Ryan Mathews
4. Mark Ingram
5. Justin Forsett
6. Frank Gore
7. Shane Vereen
8. Stevan Ridley
9. Roy Helu
10. Ahmad Bradshaw
11. Darren McFadden
12. Knowshon Moreno
13. Ray Rice
14. Ben Tate
15. Chris Johnson
16. Antone Smith
17. Daniel Thomas
18. Jacquizz Rodgers
19. Bilal Powell
20. Cedric Peerman
 
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/51589/309/2015-nfl-free-agents
 
 
Edit:
 
Woah, too much
 
https://twitter.com/jeffphowe/status/568452793624711168
 

MillarTime

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There's no way Vereen gets $5m per. If he gets anywhere in that ballpark, it won't be from the Patriots.
 
Helu would be a very intriguing option as a passing back. 
 

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In terms of RB contracts, there is a big cluster of backs that are somewhere in the $3-4M range for 3-4 years with $3-5M guaranteed. Figure the average deal is two years old right now, factor in 10% annual inflation for those two years to match up with league-wide salaries rising, and you end up with a guy who in the middle of that range get $14.7M with $4.8M guaranteed. That's my guess, and yes, I am leaving out the number of years. But those are the figures I would expect to see.
 

Ed Hillel

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So Shane is gone. Looking at that list, I'd be happy to offer Ridley a show me contract, and Moreno, coming off a knee injury, may be another cheap option with upside. There are other positions of much higher importance with needs.
 

Stitch01

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Brown contract or slightly north is potentially more realistic, and I think he's gone there.
 
Ridley, in some sense, plays a different position than Vereen so not sure that matters much for this discussion. 
 
Also likely, based on the early draft talk, to be some potential help in the draft in that late 3rd/early 4th area where the Pats have three picks.
 

IdiotKicker

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If Shane is gone, there are some decent receiving options in the draft to look at. Duke Johnson from Miami is the top one that comes to mind, and would probably be available as a late-2nd or early-3rd round pick. Having watched him in the ACC for the past several seasons, his athleticism is outstanding, and he is able to line up as a WR in addition to backfield roles. I've seen some concerns about pass protection, but he's a guy I would take a long look at, though it may require moving up 8-10 picks in the second round to do so, depending on how the dominoes fall.
 

Leather

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Aren't BB et al historically reluctant to rely on 1st year players on offense?
 
James White played in 3 games this year, rushing 9 times.
 
Vereen played in 5 games his rookie year, and didn't catch a pass until his 2nd year.
 
Ridley played in all 16 his rookie year, but averaged about 5 rushes per game.
 
 
I'm all for drafting a guy in the 3rd/4th, but it seems highly unlikely that said draftee will be able to contribute in 2015.
 

theapportioner

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Chuck Z said:
In terms of RB contracts, there is a big cluster of backs that are somewhere in the $3-4M range for 3-4 years with $3-5M guaranteed. Figure the average deal is two years old right now, factor in 10% annual inflation for those two years to match up with league-wide salaries rising, and you end up with a guy who in the middle of that range get $14.7M with $4.8M guaranteed. That's my guess, and yes, I am leaving out the number of years. But those are the figures I would expect to see.
 
Some of those RBs in the $3-4 million average salary range, like Bush, Sproles, and Steven Jackson, had considerably better track records when they signed their contracts, than Vereen. If Vereen got $5 million per, he'd be the 9th most highly paid running back in the league. At $3.5 million per, he'd be tied for 11th. Only way I see that happening is if some team decides he should be more of an every down back, even despite his youth and a strong Super Bowl appearance under his belt.
 
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/running-back/
 

IdiotKicker

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theapportioner said:
 
Some of those RBs in the $3-4 million average salary range, like Bush, Sproles, and Steven Jackson, had considerably better track records when they signed their contracts, than Vereen. If Vereen got $5 million per, he'd be the 9th most highly paid running back in the league. At $3.5 million per, he'd be tied for 11th. Only way I see that happening is if some team decides he should be more of an every down back, even despite his youth and a strong Super Bowl appearance under his belt.
 
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/running-back/
 
Keep in mind that when you're looking at average salaries, you are looking at contracts signed in previous years, whether as free agents or extensions. And with the upward trajectory of the cap and salaries, you have to account for inflation in projecting contract values. I'm not saying that Vereen is in the top ten running backs in the league. But I am saying that if you look at a deal even like Joique Bell's, who is a similar player (though two years older when he signed his deal a year ago), you're looking at a floor of $3.5M per year and very easily north of $4M when it's all said and done.
 
So if you look at what I wrote above and wanted to give different looks based on length of deal, I think you're looking at 3/12M with 4M guaranteed, or 4/17.4M with 5.6M guaranteed. Annual figures in those are 4M and 4.35M, which I definitely think are possible for a 25-year old back coming off the game he had in the Super Bowl. 
 

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I'm a Vereen guy. I like what he brings to the passing game despite tipping the offense's hand. His YPG, YPC, big plays, and he can flex outside, take a hand off, or run an option route. It's not easy to find guys like that. There are also Brady's stats when Vereen plays and when he doesn't.
 

 
That's a 97.9 rating with and a 85.5 rating without Vereen. So he's a great player in the passing game, I'd argue a top-10 back. I like all that, and I want him back, but if he gets a big offer I'm fine letting him go. He can't get in the way of Revis or McCourty. If he isn't back they should target some guys that could replace him or maybe use a 50-100ish draft pick, because I don't think a White-Bolden combo is enough to fill Vereen's shoes.
 

theapportioner

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Tony C said:
That was one of the great thread titles of all time -- can't believe it was changed to "pros and cons", blah. Shane! Come Back!
 
Bah, that kid looks like a young Roger Goodell.
 

SoxVindaloo

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Great Post Theo. I am really curious about James White, he did not look quite ready for prime time last year, but as others have said, neither did Shane in 2011.
Even if the Pats get lucky in the market and could snag him for the Brown to SD deal (3/10.5) I doubt they do it.
The way our offense had evolved it seems important to be able to split the RB out wide at times. I'm not sure if White has that skill set.
 

Tony C

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Isn't the difference that White was healthy and made no impact, whereas Vereen's rookie season was marred by nagging injuries -- foot and hammy -- that kept him out?
 
I dunno...find it hard to be optimistic about White from what little we saw.
 

Silverdude2167

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Tony C said:
Isn't the difference that White was healthy and made no impact, whereas Vereen's rookie season was marred by nagging injuries -- foot and hammy -- that kept him out?
 
I dunno...find it hard to be optimistic about White from what little we saw.
What is to say he would have played more his first season if he wasn't injured?
Also ahead of him in 2011 was Woodhead and old Kevin Faulk compared to Vereen being in front of White. I would say Vereen is better than both of those players even though I still love Woodhead.
 

Tony C

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Silverdude2167 said:
What is to say he would have played more his first season if he wasn't injured?
Also ahead of him in 2011 was Woodhead and old Kevin Faulk compared to Vereen being in front of White. I would say Vereen is better than both of those players even though I still love Woodhead.
 
Nothing. It's just to say that it's not a strictly even comparison.
 

Reverend

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GeorgeCostanza said:
Holy shit that's whatsnits actually from? I remember it from the Jerky Boys movie. Makes more sense now that I have the context.
 
"Shane."
 

SoxVindaloo

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Tony C said:
 
Nothing. It's just to say that it's not a strictly even comparison.
I see your point, its just always hard to say with the Non IR stuff with the Pats how healthy or unhealthy someone actually is. Vereen has proven to be pretty tough (2013) so maybe his lost 2011 was more because of injury than anything. I am not sure if White was banged up or not in 2014 but he would almost certainly have been a healthy scratch in most cases even if he was 100% the whole year.
 

dynomite

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Phragle said:
That's a 97.9 rating with and a 85.5 rating without Vereen. ...I don't think a White-Bolden combo is enough to fill Vereen's shoes.
Interesting stat, but I wonder how telling it really is. I found this post from 2013 that compares Brady without Gronk, Vereen, or both, and it was the games without both that were particularly poor. http://www.nepatriotslife.com/2013/12/how-does-missing-shane-vereen-affect.html?m=1

Anyway, I agree that White/Bolden in 2015 is not ideal, I still wonder whether they could add a cheap veteran as short-term (perhaps even just training camp) insurance. Maybe someone like Bilal Powell, who had 36 catches for the Jest in '13?
 

Leather

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Also,
 
Games played without Vereen were also played, presumably, without a "Vereen replacement".   They likely had to stick someone in there that wasn't used to being a pass-catching back, or had to ditch certain plays due to personnel.
 
The fall off, if any, wouldn't be as great if they can find someone to fill his role.
 
Count me as someone that thinks losing Vereen is only a mild concern.   
 

SeoulSoxFan

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We have to consider the RB cap hit list for the 2015 in properly gauging Vereen's value:
 
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2015/cap-hit/running-back/
 
We have the following players in the $3m to $5m (+ Reggie Bush) range:
  • 9. Reggie Bush @ $5,277,777
  • 10. Steven Jackson @ $4,916,668
  • 11. Shonn Greene @ $4,183,333
  • 12. Darren Sproles @ $4,100,000
  • 13. Donald Brown @ $4,083,333
  • 14. Joique Bell @ $3,500,000
  • 15. Dexter McCluster @ $3,350,000
  • 16. Trent Richardson @ $3,184,062 (aka LOL/FU Grigson)
  • 17. Toby Gerhart @ $3,000,000
That makes Vereen seem like a decent sign at $4m+/yr, except that there are plenty of younger backs that represent much better value, ala Giovani Bernard, Le'Veon Bell, or lesser known backs like Khiry Robinson (few months older than Vereen @ $580k) or Theo Riddick (@ $607k). 
 
As nice it is to have Vereen on the team, it is certainly reasonable to get close to his production at a fraction of the cost. I say pass at anything above $3.5m per year.
 

Eddie Jurak

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PROS:  
 
Vereen has incredible speed, he made real progress as a receiver this year, he can do blitz pickup, and the Patriots are probably going to feature a largely dink-and-dunk passing attack for the rest of Brady's career.  I would imagine there is room for further growth in his game, and he's a big play threat on an offense that needs more of those after Gronk.   
 
CONS:
 
He's just been awful running the football, at least since he broke his wrist against Buffalo last year.  Sometimes he looks like he could be arm-tackled by an off-balance kicker. Mediocre hands with a lot of drops, although he improved in that regard last year.  Not a consistent and reliable producer like a Gronk or an Edelman.  Any chance that some of his problems are related to the wrist injury?
 
He's a guy who I really want back, and someone who has at least some chance of being a breakout player.  On the other hand, it could be that he is what he is.  If he's valued at $4-5 million per year I think I pass.
 
EDIT: Also, how does he compare to the early Kevin Faulk?  Later-career Faulk was a consistent receiving threat who could also run it pretty well.  Of course, Faulk never got the big bucks Vereen wants.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Would it be a choice between having Revis at $15m+/year or Vereen + $11m in additional cap space?
 
If so, I vote for Revis. Give James White (Vereen was essentially red-shirted his rookie year) & the draft kids a chance to compete for Vereen's role & give that money to the Revis pot. 
 

JohnnyK

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SeoulSoxFan said:
Would it be a choice between having Revis at $15m+/year or Vereen + $11m in additional cap space?
I think the much more likely scenario is: Vereen or Ghost  – keep one, seeing that they will probably command similar yearly figures. I highly doubt it's between him and Revis.
 

j44thor

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SeoulSoxFan said:
We have to consider the RB cap hit list for the 2015 in properly gauging Vereen's value:
 
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2015/cap-hit/running-back/
 
We have the following players in the $3m to $5m (+ Reggie Bush) range:
  • 9. Reggie Bush @ $5,277,777
  • 10. Steven Jackson @ $4,916,668
  • 11. Shonn Greene @ $4,183,333
  • 12. Darren Sproles @ $4,100,000
  • 13. Donald Brown @ $4,083,333
  • 14. Joique Bell @ $3,500,000
  • 15. Dexter McCluster @ $3,350,000
  • 16. Trent Richardson @ $3,184,062 (aka LOL/FU Grigson)
  • 17. Toby Gerhart @ $3,000,000
That makes Vereen seem like a decent sign at $4m+/yr, except that there are plenty of younger backs that represent much better value, ala Giovani Bernard, Le'Veon Bell, or lesser known backs like Khiry Robinson (few months older than Vereen @ $580k) or Theo Riddick (@ $607k). 
 
As nice it is to have Vereen on the team, it is certainly reasonable to get close to his production at a fraction of the cost. I say pass at anything above $3.5m per year.
 
That list is a great example of why you don't pay non-generational (Charles/AP/Shady) RB's more than 3M per year.
Other than Joique Bell would anyone want one of those players at that cap hit on NE next season?
Also how did Shonn Greene get 4M?  He makes Trent Richardson look like a serviceable RB.
 

theapportioner

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j44thor said:
Also how did Shonn Greene get 4M?  He makes Trent Richardson look like a serviceable RB.
 
Well, when he signed the contract two years ago, he was coming off of consecutive 1050+ yard rushing seasons with the Jests, and caught a few passes too.
 

tims4wins

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theapportioner said:
 
Well, when he signed the contract two years ago, he was coming off of consecutive 1050+ yard rushing seasons with the Jests, and caught a few passes too.
Real similar to BJGE IMO
 
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Couldn't agree more. I like Shane, think he had a great, if overrated, Super Bowl, and will sort of miss him, but...bigger off-season fish to fry. Guys I would rather they re-signed or extended:

Revis (duh), McCourty, Gost, Connelly (and I don't even care that much, since we should draft OG), Dobson (just kidding), get to work on extending Chandler and High...THEN Vereen.

Again, really like the player, but think he's fairly replaceable. Enjoy Houston, tell Billy O we say hi.
 

crystalline

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j44thor said:
 
That list is a great example of why you don't pay non-generational (Charles/AP/Shady) RB's more than 3M per year.
Other than Joique Bell would anyone want one of those players at that cap hit on NE next season?
Also how did Shonn Greene get 4M?  He makes Trent Richardson look like a serviceable RB.
Kevin Faulk is a pretty close comp to Vereen as a 3rd down/pass catching scat back. Faulk was probably worth the same or a little more to the Pats as Vereen is now, for similar skills: game intelligence, connection with Brady, blocking, and pass catching ability. It's tough to tell exactly, but it looks like Faulk averaged about $2.5M in real dollars/cap hit per season from 2004 on. Even with cap inflation I don't see the Pats going to $4M AAV for Vereen. We'll see.

Edit: Miguel's page on Faulk: http://patscap.com/2009capfootnotes.html
 

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Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
Couldn't agree more. I like Shane, think he had a great, if overrated, Super Bowl, and will sort of miss him, but...bigger off-season fish to fry. Guys I would rather they re-signed or extended:
 
Wat?