Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

[BigA27]

I put this down to Klitschko being seriously freaked out by southpaws. The Corrie Sanders fight lift an impression on him. I have watched that fight a couple times and don't think Wlad saw many if not most of those straight lefts coming. Something about the way lefties throw punches makes him uneasy.

Every winging right hook from Ibragimov flustered him. He was not picking them up well. He was reluctant to throw a right hand, have it slipped, then get clocked with a right hook he didn't see coming.

I will give him a pass on this one. He has won 50 fights, 44 by knockout. He knows how to stop people, often spectacularly like the Brock fight.

Still it was boring, frustrating, and tenative. He clearly did not want to take risks. Put him in there with an orthodox fighter and he will be more aggressive.

 

[BGrif21125]

I put this down to Klitschko being seriously freaked out by southpaws. The Corrie Sanders fight lift an impression on him. I have watched that fight a couple times and don't think Wlad saw many if not most of those straight lefts coming. Something about the way lefties throw punches makes him uneasy.

But 2 of the most dominant performances of Wlad's career came against Chris Byrd, who like Ibragimov is a shifty southpaw without much power. That's why most people expected a dominant performance last night, because he'd already proven that he can handily beat that type of opponent.

 

[eddiew112]

The fight last night was a perfect display of why I have lost all of my patience with the heavyweight division, the division that originally brought me to boxing.

All Klitschko had to do was double up his jab and throw his right hand behind it. If it couldn't be any more simple than that, Ibragimov is giving up six inches, has no punching power, and he was leaving himself open! What a goddamn waste of physical talent and power.

I will give some credit to Ibragimov. He isn't any good, but at least he was in there to fight. I can't believe that he succeeded in making Klitschko afraid of him (as Gene already pointed out). Klitschko's post fight interview should leave any southpaw with a punch thinking they could challenge him.

In terms of JMM-Pacquiao II, I like JMM in this one. Pacquiao might have faster hands than Marquez, but he wings his punches. If Marquez can weather the initial storm, he should win this fight with solid defense and consistent, compact, and hard punching. Either a TKO in the 11th or UD for Marquez.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

In terms of JMM-Pacquiao II, I like JMM in this one. Pacquiao might have faster hands than Marquez, but he wings his punches. If Marquez can weather the initial storm, he should win this fight with solid defense and consistent, compact, and hard punching. Either a TKO in the 11th or UD for Marquez.

I think a lot depends on whether Pacquiao is serious abut boxing again. He had a lackluster year last year which has to be put down to his preoccupation with politics and partying. If he comes into this fight focused, I'd have to call it a pick 'em. But at the same time, I have hard time picking against a focused Pacquiao, no matter who the opponent is. He's just too much of an unstoppable force. So I guess the only thing I 'm willing to predict is that this will be a really exciting fight.

The next three weeks bring us five fights that range from good to great, so that should help wash out the bad taste of last night's heavyweight debacle. We've got Raul Marquez-Israel Vasquez III, which as always has to be a FOY candidate going in. Then on March 8, Showtime has the All-British cruiserweight slugfest, Enzo Maccarinelli vs. David Haye. That one's a sure bet to not go the distance. Just two bombers squaring off. Also on March 8, HBO has the double bill of Maskaev-Peter and Juan Diaz vs. Nate Campbell. Yeah, I know they're heavyweight and neither is the greatest fighter in the world, but Maskaev-Peter if nothing else should provide the type of slugfest we want to se from heavyweights. It probably won't be a work of art, but it should be exciting. Diaz-campbell has the makings of an intriguing lightweight style matchup. I don't know if Diaz has fought a slickster like Campbell yet. It will be a good test to see how he deals with it.

Finally, of course, on March 15 we have the PPV, JMM-Pac 2. 'Nuf sed on that.

Oh yeah, as a bonus, ShoBox this Friday has a very exciting featherweight title matchup, with Robert Guerrero against Jason Litzau. That one will be worth staying up for, or at least DVR'ing.

So best to forget the Klitschko disappointment and move on to what looks like a terrific three weeks of boxing ahead!

 

[BigA27]

But 2 of the most dominant performances of Wlad's career came against Chris Byrd, who like Ibragimov is a shifty southpaw without much power. That's why most people expected a dominant performance last night, because he'd already proven that he can handily beat that type of opponent.

Chris Byrd couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag. Ibragimov has at least some pop. Wlad knew he had nothing to fear from Byrd and acted that way. It appeared to me that Ibragimov clearly hit hard enough for him to be somewhat concerned.


This was a dreadfully boring fight. I don't know if Wlad will ever have wide box office appeal, but he usually does produce a rather impressive knockout. I am willing to give him a mulligan. The only other Wlad fight in recent memory that had rounds that were this boring was the Brock one, which made up for it with its sudden, brutal ending.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Chris Byrd couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag. Ibragimov has at least some pop. Wlad knew he had nothing to fear from Byrd and acted that way. It appeared to me that Ibragimov clearly hit hard enough for him to be somewhat concerned.
This was a dreadfully boring fight. I don't know if Wlad will ever have wide box office appeal, but he usually does produce a rather impressive knockout. I am willing to give him a mulligan. The only other Wlad fight in recent memory that had rounds that were this boring was the Brock one, which made up for it with its sudden, brutal ending.

I think Klitschko COULD have wide box office appeal. He's certainly got the elements in place. But he blew it big time last night. I'd be willing to give him a pass if this were just some routine title defense. Everyone's entitled to a stinker now and again. But this was the first heavyweight unification in 8 years, a fight heavily hyped as the first step in bringing the luster back to heavyweight boxing and Klitschko had every opportunity to seize the moment and he just couldn't or wouldn't do it. Very disappointing, and infuriating, in a way.

On a more exciting note, Showtime is doing everything in its power to promote Marquez-Vasquez III, and good for them. I hope that not only boxing fans, but all sports fans watch this fight because if the first two are any indication (and I think they are) this is one of those fights that reminds the world why boxing -- Klitschkos of the world aside -- was once and can be again, the jewel in the crown of professional sports. I defy anyone, including hardcore MMA fans, to watch this fight and, if it goes the way everyone thinks it will, come away not feeling they've witnessed one of the most exciting sports events they've ever seen.

And for "casual" boxing fans, watch these two 122-pounders and tell me you still think that boxing needs the heavyweights to regain its former luster.

Showtime is even using viral marketing, making the complete fights I and II available for free on line. So here we go. The video's about an hour long. Two fights. 13 rounds of non stop action and world class skill. Watch it right here. You will not be disappointed.

 

[inter tatters]

The well respected British Commentator Jim Watt reckoned Klitschko was just terrified of getting his chin checked again. Sam Peter nailed him and knocked him down, so did Brewster and Sanders, Watt believed that he is concious of how weak his chin is and did everything to avoid getting hit there, making for the boring contest. Shame really, cos when he did oopen up in the 8th I thought he'd get Ibragimov out of there, but he retreated into his shell again.

Anyone catch John Duddy on the undercard? I know he loves a scrap and all, but there's no way he can take the kind of shots Smichet hit him with against a better contender and hope to go far. I've a feeling Pavlik's representatives saw that and must be thinking they're on to an easy pay-day, if, as was mentioned on the Sky commentary, it's '99% done according to Duddy's camp'. Mind you, with that horrendous cut I'm not sure any plastic surgery will have healed enough to let him train properly for a June fight. Thoughts?

 

[Spacemans Bong]

I wish Duddy would go away. If he wasn't from Derry, no one would know who he is.

 

[BGrif21125]

I've a feeling Pavlik's representatives saw that and must be thinking they're on to an easy pay-day, if, as was mentioned on the Sky commentary, it's '99% done according to Duddy's camp'. Mind you, with that horrendous cut I'm not sure any plastic surgery will have healed enough to let him train properly for a June fight. Thoughts?

After two tough fights against Taylor, it makes some sense for Pavlik to have a comparatively easy fight against an opponent with a good-sized fanbase.

That's why they talked to Felix Trinidad's people, because Trinidad is the most popular Puerto Rican fighter ever, and Pavlik's fight at MSG is scheduled for June 7th, on the eve of the annual New York Puerto Rican parade. But that can't work because Trinidad can't make the middleweight limit anymore.

Duddy is an attractive 2nd option because he's got a big fanbase among NY's Irish population, and Arum could then load up the undercard with some of his Puerto Rican fighters to fill out the crowd. But that cut sustained by Duddy may be the widest gash I've seen since the one Vitali Klitschko got 5 years ago against Lennox Lewis. I'll be shocked if Duddy can fight by June 7. I'm not sure where they'll go looking now for an opponent, but I'm guessing it won't be anyone too dangerous.

Then Pavlik can fight in a title-worthy fight in the fall. I'm sure Arthur Abraham will be considered. If that doesn't work, Winky Wright could be considered, I also wouldn't be shocked to see Vernon Forrest move up from 154.

 

[inter tatters]

Just read on Rafael's review of the fight, that the other option being considered by Arum for Pavlik is New York-based Dominican Giovanni Lorenzo. He's also undefeated (26-0, 18KOs), but has faced even weaker competition than Duddy.

 

[BGrif21125]

By the way, Pavlik-Taylor ended up doing only ~225,000 PPV buys. Just further evidence that it shouldn't have been a Vegas/PPV fight.

Arum is blaming it on Taylor ordering the immediate rematch, he's claiming it would have been a higher selling PPV if they had each had a tune-up fight in-between. I think that's a BS excuse, Arum just made a poor decision on this one.

I'm guessing that Pacquiao-Marquez II will do around 350,000, which is about the standard for big fights that feature either non-English speaking fighters or Americans who aren't really big names. It's kind of sad that a fight like Pacquiao-Marquez will probably get far less viewers than Trinidad-Jones did, considering it's arguably the biggest fight of the entire decade so far from a PFP perspective.

 

[BGrif21125]

Mosley-Judah is on for May 31 on PPV.

Rafael

 

[JeffFryesStartingJob]

Mosley-Judah is on for May 31 on PPV.

Rafael

should i be excited about this? neither of these guys seem to even be very relevant anymore

 

[BGrif21125]

should i be excited about this?

Not really.

I think it will be an entertaining fight, but it's not worthy of $50. Basically, HBO is already booked up, so the fight is forced onto PPV. For me, this is a "skip the PPV fee and download on the internet the next morning" type of fight.

 

[shawnrbu]

If the undercard develops as hoped, it's a pretty solid card with Mosley-Judah, Barrios-Juarez, Codrington-Bika and Ponce de Leon-Caballero. I'd be very happy with that type of undercard on a show with a more meaningful main event.

 

[ElUno20]

I have bought worse. Plus, Zab Judah is must see TV. The guy is entertaining. And even at his advanced age, this fight will still be "high speed" chess.

And I just read that PBF is getting $20 million. 20 MILLION? Are you f'n kidding me? For 30 minutes of work against a big stiff. Hats off to Ellerbe & co.

 

[inter tatters]

So Ricky Hatton is planning his 'Big Comeback' at home against either Juan Lazcano or Isaac Hlatashwayo (WHO???) on May 24th. Whoopie-doo to that.

Ricky's latest excuse for ducking a Unification bout against Junior Witter, is that the US TV stations don't want to know about Witter. So I ask this question in all seriousness - Are Lazcano or Hlata-whatshisname such a big draw in the US market that US TV would prefer to watch Hatton drill an opponent like them, rather than watch a highly competitive Unification bout, in a match Hatton has a more than possible chance of losing?

This is pathetic Ricky, give the public what they want to see or your star is going to fade big time over here.

 

[BGrif21125]

So Ricky Hatton is planning his 'Big Comeback' at home against either Juan Lazcano or Isaac Hlatashwayo (WHO???) on May 24th. Whoopie-doo to that.

Ricky's latest excuse for ducking a Unification bout against Junior Witter, is that the US TV stations don't want to know about Witter. So I ask this question in all seriousness - Are Lazcano or Hlata-whatshisname such a big draw in the US market that US TV would prefer to watch Hatton drill an opponent like them, rather than watch a highly competitive Unification bout, in a match Hatton has a more than possible chance of losing?

This is pathetic Ricky, give the public what they want to see or your star is going to fade big time over here.

I'm not a Hatton fan by any means, but I do think he deserves a pass on this opponent. When a guy gets knocked out, I think he's entitled to one "bounceback" type of fight to regain his confidence. It'd be very admirable of him to fight Witter immediately after the TKO loss to Mayweather, but I'm not going to criticize him for not doing so. Now if he beats Lazcano, and his NEXT fight is not against Witter (or even Malignaggi), then I think Hatton is fair game for criticism.

If Hatton wants to be in big fights and make big paydays, he doesn't have a ton of time to waste. He's already 29, and I've been saying for awhile now that I think his career is headed for a nosedive in the very near future. He's a high-energy fighter with short arms and a high-contact style, and he also blows up in weight repeatedly between fights... those guys tend to crash and burn at/around the age of 30. (I wouldn't be surprised to see Pacquiao's career make a similar descent over the next 12-18 months, fwiw).

 

[inter tatters]

I know what you mean about the bounceback fight and I do think it's right that he has one, but to intimate that a bout against Lazcano would be a bigger draw to US TV markets than a Unification bout with Witter is just plain nonsense.

On that note, Dan Rafael, in his latest rankings, doubts that either of the big channels in the States would bother with a Hatton-Lazcano fight, and definitely would not touch Hatton-Hlatashwayo.

 

[BGrif21125]

I know what you mean about the bounceback fight and I do think it's right that he has one, but to intimate that a bout against Lazcano would be a bigger draw to US TV markets than a Unification bout with Witter is just plain nonsense.

Ya, I agree with you. He should just admit he wants a tuneup fight instead of saying Lazcano is a bigger draw than Witter, because that's obviously not true.

I'm guessing what's happening here.... Witter has spent so long calling out and bashing Hatton, that this is Ricky's way of needling Witter in return.

 

[inter tatters]

I'm guessing what's happening here.... Witter has spent so long calling out and bashing Hatton, that this is Ricky's way of needling Witter in return.

Yeah, that's probably true. It's a shame Witter's match against Demetrius Hopkins fell through, as that was a real chance for Witter to step out of Hatton's shadow and show the US fight fans that he is a great Boxer in his own right. A good performance in that fight would've been his way to ramp up the pressure on Hatton to take the big fight. He couldn't get a replacement that was acceptable to HBO and he's off the card altogether now.

BTW, if you get the idea I'm more of a fan of Witter than Hatton then you're right. Two reasons...
1) Witter is from Bradford in Yorkshire, Hatton is from Manchester in Lancashire, I'm from Sheffield in Yorkshire and the cross-Pennines rivalry doesn't half stir the passions up here!
2) Hatton's showman antics annoy the hell out of me, Witter just gets in there and does the job, no nonsense. I know that's part and parcel of the game these days, but it grates, hence the reason I want Haye to dump loud-mouth Maccarinelli on his backside next weekend.

 

[BGrif21125]

So best to forget the Klitschko disappointment and move on to what looks like a terrific three weeks of boxing ahead!

Absolutely. There's a very good chance that this is the best 3 week stretch that we'll see all year.

Guerrero-Litzau on Friday, then Marquez-Vazquez III Saturday, both for free.

Then next weekend, Peter-Maskaev and Diaz-Campbell on HBO, Haye-Maccarinelli on Showtime, all for free.

Then Pacquiao-Marquez II on 3/15, which is one of those PPVs where you pay the $50 without thinking twice. As I've said before, I think this is the biggest fight of the entire decade so far from a pound-for-pound perspective, as I currently rank Pacquiao and Marquez as 2nd and 3rd in the world PFP (some people would understandably put Calzaghe at either #2 or 3).

Should be a great three weeks, since not only do the fights feature significant names, but also feature style matchups that should practically guarantee entertaining fights.

Then in April, we get Cotto-Gomez, Cintron-Margarito II, and Calzaghe-Hopkins in a stretch of 7 days... again, all for free. Not bad.

I just hope HBO isn't blowing its 2008 budget on the De La Hoya-Forbes farce. I'd rather see the Mosley-Judah fight on HBO, with Oscar-Forbes on PPV. There are enough blindly loyal Oscar fans, that he could be fighting me in May and still draw strong PPV numbers.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Absolutely. There's a very good chance that this is the best 3 week stretch that we'll see all year.

Guerrero-Litzau on Friday, then Marquez-Vazquez III Saturday, both for free.

Then next weekend, Peter-Maskaev and Diaz-Campbell on HBO, Haye-Maccarinelli on Showtime, all for free.

Then Pacquiao-Marquez II on 3/15, which is one of those PPVs where you pay the $50 without thinking twice. As I've said before, I think this is the biggest fight of the entire decade so far from a pound-for-pound perspective, as I currently rank Pacquiao and Marquez as 2nd and 3rd in the world PFP (some people would understandably put Calzaghe at either #2 or 3).

Should be a great three weeks, since not only do the fights feature significant names, but also feature style matchups that should practically guarantee entertaining fights.

Then in April, we get Cotto-Gomez, Cintron-Margarito II, and Calzaghe-Hopkins in a stretch of 7 days... again, all for free. Not bad.

I just hope HBO isn't blowing its 2008 budget on the De La Hoya-Forbes farce. I'd rather see the Mosley-Judah fight on HBO, with Oscar-Forbes on PPV. There are enough blindly loyal Oscar fans, that he could be fighting me in May and still draw strong PPV numbers.

It was earlier reported that HBO will pay for this fight with money from outside its boxing budget. I guess they figure the ratings potential is so high that they can justify taking money from elsewhere. So it shouldn't affect the rest of the boxing schedule. And it will be interesting to see, given De La Hoya's consistently massive PPV numbers, just how many people will watch him fight for "free." (Or more accurately, without paying an extra 50 bucks.)

Interesting argument about Pac-Marquez II being the PFP fight of the decade. What are the other candidates? Both De La Hoya-Mosley fights were in this decade (if you count 2000 as part of the decade). I think either of those give this one a run for its money. Where do the Barrera-Morales wars rank? Both of those guys would have to be pretty high on the PFP lists at the time of their fights, the first two especially. All took place in this decade (the first was in February 2000).

Anything else?

 

[BGrif21125]

Interesting argument about Pac-Marquez II being the PFP fight of the decade. What are the other candidates? Both De La Hoya-Mosley fights were in this decade (if you count 2000 as part of the decade). I think either of those give this one a run for its money. Where do the Barrera-Morales wars rank? Both of those guys would have to be pretty high on the PFP lists at the time of their fights, the first two especially. All took place in this decade (the first was in February 2000).

Anything else?

Obviously all PFP rankings are 100% subjective, but here are the Ring's year-by-year PFP rankings for this decade, which are as close to an "official" PFP ranking system as you'll get.

The first DLH-Mosley fight is the closest. Both of those guys were top 5 at the time of that fight. As you'll see on that list, Mosley finished 2000 at #1 pfp, but a lot of that high ranking was based on the win over Oscar, he wasn't considered #1 yet at the time they actually stepped in the ring . (Fwiw, I still would have considered Jones #1 PFP at the end of that year instead of Mosley. I thought Jones was #1 all the way from about '96 or so until he lost to Tarver in '04).

As great as the Barrera-Morales fights were, those guys weren't ever both Top 5 at the time of their fights. At the time of the first fight, Barrera wasn't viewed that highly because he was coming off two losses to Junior Jones. For the 3rd fight, a lot of people thought Barrera was washed up because he had been recently annihilated by Pacquiao. The 2nd fight was the closest, but they were both top 7-8 PFP, not top 5 or top 2-3.

If you buy into the theory (as I do), that Pacquiao and Marquez are #2 and #3 (or the best two fighters not named Mayweather), then I think it's the only time this decade when 2 of the top 3 fighters PFP fought each other. If you think Calzaghe deserves to be ahead of one (or both) of these guys, then Pac-Marquez is about equal with Mosley-DLH I.

PFP is one of my favorite boxing arguments, and I like researching the historical lineage of the PFP crown, hence all the thought on the significance of Pac-Marquez II. (I would love for the cards to fall right and for Mayweather-Cotto in '09 to be a #1 vs. #2 PFP matchup. That hasn't happened in 15 years, when Whitaker-Chavez took place.)

 

[BU1995Hockey]

How absolutely sick is Mayweather? This is the best thread ever. Would someone point me in the direction of some great FMJ fights?

Thank you!

 

[shawnrbu]

How absolutely sick is Mayweather? This is the best thread ever. Would someone point me in the direction of some great FMJ fights?

Floyd has yet to be in a fight given serious consideration for FOTY. He is a technical wiz who is often content to win on the scorecards. His most impressive performances would be the January 2001 fight against Diego Corrales and his December 2007 fight against Ricky Hatton. If you like to watch Arturo Gatti get punched in the face a lot, then check out Floyd's fight with him from June 2005. ESPN Classic replays it on occasion. The best action fight Floyd has had on TV would certainly be against Phillip N'Dou from November 2003.

 

[shawnrbu]

Interesting argument about Pac-Marquez II being the PFP fight of the decade. What are the other candidates?

Trinidad vs. Vargas (Not exactly sure whereabouts each guy would fall, but I would have to think they were both in the Top 10)

Hopkins vs. Trinidad from 9/01 (Trinidad was Top 3 and Hopkins was in the middle to back of the Top 10 going into the fight)

Taylor vs. Wright from 6/06 (Winky was Top 3 and Taylor received a huge boost when Hopkins smashed Tarver the week before)


I find PFP lists somewhat hard to grasp. Where does Hopkins rank currently? What about Winky Wright? How high up is Cotto?

 

[BGrif21125]

When Mayweather was at 130, 135, and 140, he had a much more crowd-pleasing style than some people give him credit for.

His fights with Emmanuel Burton, Jesus Chavez, Carlos Gerena, Diego Corrales, the first Castillo fight, Philip Ndou, DeMarcus Corley... None of them were classics, but those were all entertaining fights where he showed plenty of aggression.

It's only since he moved to 147/154 that he's become a safety-first, one-punch-at-a-time type of fighter. Don't get me wrong, his style has always been based around defense from Day 1, but at the lower weights he would also explode with combinations on offense.

I find PFP lists somewhat hard to grasp. Where does Hopkins rank currently? What about Winky Wright? How high up is Cotto?

Here are the current Ring Magazine rankings. (PFP is all the way at the bottom).

My rankings would be something like this:
1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. JM Marquez
4. Calzaghe
5. Hopkins
6. Cotto
7. Winner of R Marquez/Vazquez III

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

When Mayweather was at 130, 135, and 140, he had a much more crowd-pleasing style than some people give him credit for.

His fights with Emmanuel Burton, Jesus Chavez, Carlos Gerena, Diego Corrales, the first Castillo fight, Philip Ndou, DeMarcus Corley... None of them were classics, but those were all entertaining fights where he showed plenty of aggression.

It's only since he moved to 147/154 that he's become a safety-first, one-punch-at-a-time type of fighter. Don't get me wrong, his style has always been based around defense from Day 1, but at the lower weights he would also explode with combinations on offense.
Here are the current Ring Magazine rankings. (PFP is all the way at the bottom).

My rankings would be something like this:
1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. JM Marquez
4. Calzaghe
5. Hopkins
6. Cotto
7. Winner of R Marquez/Vazquez III

I moved Pacquiao down on my list due to his very blah 2007. Marquez needs another career-defining fight, which he should get in two weeks, but he's still pretty high. I give a huge amount of credit to Calzaghe after that dominant outing against Kessler. I also give Cotto more credit for his win over Mosley than I give Hopkins for beating Wright. So my top 6, anyway, are:

1. Mayweather
2. Calzaghe
3. JM Marquez
4. Pacquiao
5. Cotto
6. B-Hop

 

[ElUno20]

The best action fight Floyd has had on TV would certainly be against Phillip N'Dou from November 2003.

That fight would make a Floyd fan out of anyone. That was a straight beatdown against a guy who had no give or quit. It fit the cliche 'he beat him like he stole somethin'


BTW, thank you Showtime for free boxing at this level.

 

[BU1995Hockey]

PFP is one of my favorite boxing arguments, and I like researching the historical lineage of the PFP crown, hence all the thought on the significance of Pac-Marquez II. (I would love for the cards to fall right and for Mayweather-Cotto in '09 to be a #1 vs. #2 PFP matchup. That hasn't happened in 15 years, when Whitaker-Chavez took place.)

When FMJ does the "shoulder roll" defense with the left shoulder, for example, what does he do with his hands? Is the left hand used to protect the body/ribs and the right cocked to strike? Or is the right used to block punches? Or is the shoulder roll actually a movement back and forth alternating shoulders to protect his face?

Who do you think would win the Mayweather-Cotto fight? This is the one I've been waiting for too! Do they weigh about the same amount right now?

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

When FMJ does the "shoulder roll" defense with the left shoulder, for example, what does he do with his hands? Is the left hand used to protect the body/ribs and the right cocked to strike? Or is the right used to block punches? Or is the shoulder roll actually a movement back and forth alternating shoulders to protect his face?

Who do you think would win the Mayweather-Cotto fight? This is the one I've been waiting for too! Do they weigh about the same amount right now?

As far as i can see, the shoulder roll involves tucking the chin under the raised left shoulder with the left arm held down to protect the body. The right hand his held across the chest or undder the chin to block punches or counterpunch. People kind of make fun of Floyd for using this technique, but it's a lot harder than it looks to pull off. That's why you don't see very many fighters using it.

Right now, I think Floyd beats Cotto rather easily. He wouldn't do what Mosley did, which is stand there and trade with Cotto. I do think Cotto would give him a hard time at points in the fight and as in most of Floyd's fights, it would take him a few rounds to figure Cotto out. But by the fifth or sixth he'd take over and start making Cotto look overmatched.

The problem is, right now Floyd is much more interested in "building the Mayweather brand" than he is in being a boxer. It may be another year or two before this fight actually happens, assuming it ever does. By then, I wonder if Floyd's reflexes will have slowed, even a little. If he's lost any speed or quickness, then all bets are off. He could be in for a very long night -- or a short one. That's why if Mayweather ever expects to make this fight, he's better off doing it sooner rather than later.

 

[eddiew112]

When FMJ does the "shoulder roll" defense with the left shoulder, for example, what does he do with his hands? Is the left hand used to protect the body/ribs and the right cocked to strike? Or is the right used to block punches? Or is the shoulder roll actually a movement back and forth alternating shoulders to protect his face?

Who do you think would win the Mayweather-Cotto fight? This is the one I've been waiting for too! Do they weigh about the same amount right now?

The shoulder roll is an old school defensive technique that involves a boxer tucking his chin under his lead shoulder, and when a punch (either a jab or a cross) is thrown at him, he twists his shoulder out to deflect the punch. Then, while his opponent's arm is going back into position, he would then rotate his shoulder back, leaving him in a perfect position to counter-punch. In that stance, the left hand protects the body, while the right hand is always in a position to counter (as you said). Mind you, that style is VERY difficult to execute. First of all, you must be extremely athletic and quick. It takes years of drilling on pads to learn the angles and reflexes for that stance, because all punches are either being blocked with your upper body or slipped. Floyd does it about as well as anybody can, and it is a thing of beauty when done correctly. Whatever you want to say about Floyd, there is no doubt he is a pugilistic genius.

I think Mayweather would beat Cotto pretty easily by UD.

 

[BGrif21125]

Right now, I think Floyd beats Cotto rather easily. He wouldn't do what Mosley did, which is stand there and trade with Cotto. I do think Cotto would give him a hard time at points in the fight and as in most of Floyd's fights, it would take him a few rounds to figure Cotto out. But by the fifth or sixth he'd take over and start making Cotto look overmatched.

Ya, even though Cotto is the biggest threat to Mayweather, Floyd would still be a solid favorite to win. Right now, in terms of odds, I view it as around a 65/35 fight for Floyd. By comparison, I viewed Floyd-Oscar I as ~75/25 and Floyd-Hatton as 95/5. I viewed the Hatton fight as nothing but a complete mismatch from the day it was announced.

The one thing that gives Cotto a good chance is that he has really started to build everything around his jab, and I've always felt the only type of fighter who could beat Floyd is someone with a jab (and unlike Oscar, someone who is willing to stick with it.)

By then, I wonder if Floyd's reflexes will have slowed, even a little. If he's lost any speed or quickness, then all bets are off. He could be in for a very long night -- or a short one. That's why if Mayweather ever expects to make this fight, he's better off doing it sooner rather than later.

The "who benefits more from a delay" question is an interesting one, and I haven't made my mind up yet. Usually, it's an easy answer, the younger guy (Cotto) is going to benefit more. But Cotto's fights are so physical, and Floyd gets hit so rarely, that IMO Cotto will age at a much faster rate than Floyd. If they meet 12-18 months from now, and Cotto has had 2-3 high contact fights during that time period, they might be about equal in "boxing years" even if Floyd is technically 3 years older.

 

[Ahriman]

What an amazing fight. Wow. That 12th round is one for the ages.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

What an amazing fight. Wow. That 12th round is one for the ages.

Unbelievable fight - to follow up with their #2 which is in many people's minds the Fight of the Year in '07.

As much as I like seeing top K-1, Dream, UFC fights, boxing is as interesting as ever in the low to middleweights.

I for one can't wait until the March 15th fight between Pacman and Marquez - it'll be another war!

 

[Ahriman]

I really didn't have a rooting interest going into this one, but I found myself pulling for Vazquez big time from about the 4th round on. Israel was getting inside when he wanted to but seemed to take some strange angles because he couldn't get that hook going at all. Just couldn't seem to square up until about the 9th round when he really starting to take control of things. The right was working for him all night, though. And I thought his jab was much more effective than the announcers let on. Vazquez would pump two or three jabs real quick before stepping in close for most of the fight and landed a fair amount of them (just by the eyeball test, haven't seen punch stat #'s).

Edit: Much credit to Marquez, too. He fought almost exactly the fight he should have to pull off the win. Kept his distance, for the most part, up until the last two rounds. His jab was clearly superior. Vazquez's face was a testament to that. Turned his face into mush.

Lots of talk about the ref, but I thought he was superb. Gave a ton of warnings to Marquez about the low blows. Anything close at that point was going to be a deduction.

I can't remember the last fight which brought that much emotion out of me. As for the 12th, I was running around screaming when the ref stepped in to count. Yelled even more when the decision was announced. It's nights like last...

 

[letsgosox]

what an amazing fight and an amazing trilogy. The best trilogy I've ever seen, since each fight was better then the last one. In case anyone was wondering Vazquez got $750,000 and Marquez got $425,000. They earned every penny of it.

 

[BGrif21125]

what an amazing fight and an amazing trilogy. The best trilogy I've ever seen, since each fight was better then the last one.

It'll be interesting to see where Marquez-Vazquez is placed among the all-time great trilogies. Obviously, Ali-Frazier is #1 and that will never change. From recent decades, I'm still partial to Morales-Barrera. But it's a great debate.

If Marquez doesn't fall back against the ropes in the final seconds last night (which is a legit knockdown), then that fight would have been a draw. I didn't score the fight round-by-round, I'm going to have to go back on the DVR and rewatch it to come up with a score.

 

[BigA27]

The 60 minutes story on the Obama-Clinton race in Ohio had an interesting shot. While doing a long camera shot to show Clinton walking next to her bus, who should be next to her chatting amiably but Kelly Pavlik.

Did this get a mention? No.

Maybe this is a sign of boxing's declining pop cultural impact, but I found it odd that the would show the middleweight champion of the world campaigning with a candidate without even mentioning it. Or maybe its just me.

 

[Vinho Tinto]

It'll be interesting to see where Marquez-Vazquez is placed among the all-time great trilogies. Obviously, Ali-Frazier is #1 and that will never change. From recent decades, I'm still partial to Morales-Barrera. But it's a great debate.

If Marquez doesn't fall back against the ropes in the final seconds last night (which is a legit knockdown), then that fight would have been a draw. I didn't score the fight round-by-round, I'm going to have to go back on the DVR and rewatch it to come up with a score.

I don't have Showtime, so hadn't watched any of their fights until Saturday night (My buddy just got it). I will be ordering Showtime this week just so I can DVR this fight. Lot of brain damage being dished out by these two guys. Looking forward to part IV.

What did you think of the one point deduction?

 

[BGrif21125]

What did you think of the one point deduction?

I'll have to watch it again to be sure, but IIRC, the ref warned Marquez 3 times for low blows, and then penalized him the 4th time. It's completely normal for a ref to deduct a point on the 3rd warning, so the ref actually gave him more leeway than he had to.

 

[Naehring11]

The ref did an amazing job. A bad ref can ruin a fight if he gets too involved. Russell seemed well aware of what he was a part of and let the fighters decide the outcome. At one point Lampley mentioned Russell winking at them when they were talking about how great of a fight it was.

My friend and I watched the fight separately and when discussing it the next day, both agreed that we wanted him refereeing every important fight possible going forward.

I don't have much to say about the fight other than it was one of the most exciting fights I've seen, and was standing for the 12th round as I watched alone in my living room.


ESPN quoted Mickey Ward as saying they shouldn't fight again. I'm torn on this. As excited as I was to hear them both interested in a fourth bout, I am grateful for these three fights and worry about the amount of punishment they have taken.

 

[BGrif21125]

ESPN quoted Mickey Ward as saying they shouldn't fight again. I'm torn on this. As excited as I was to hear them both interested in a fourth bout, I am grateful for these three fights and worry about the amount of punishment they have taken.

I don't think they should fight again.

To reference another great trilogy, I think one thing that Morales and Barrera (and their promoters) were smart about was that they spaced out their 3 fights. They had 2.5 years in between the first and second fights, and another 2+ years in between the 2nd and the third.

As a result, both guys were able to accomplish a lot of things in between, and it's part of the reason why both Morales and Barrera will be first ballot HOFers when they become eligible. If they had followed up their first fight (which was better and more punishing than any of the 3 Vazquez-Marquez fights) by fighting twice more in the next 12 months, they would've both been completely shot at a very young age.

Marquez and Vazquez have fought 3 times in 12 months, and they've never given their bodies/minds the time to recover in between fights. I already have my doubts about how much they have left in the tank after these 3 fights. A 4th fight might end things for both of them.

 

[Ahriman]

Here's the 12th round and the decision on youtube:

[youtube]531HgvSSyJA[/youtube]

Not sure how long it will stay up.

 

[BGrif21125]

Here's the youtube link for Round 4, an early candidate for '08 Round of the Year.

And while I'm at it, one last look at Round 3 of their 2nd fight, which won Round of the Year for 2007.

 

[Ahriman]

You're right about round 4. Not 3 seconds after the ref finished his count on Vazquez did Marquez get his jaw displaced by a perfect right hook. Epic stuff.

The only real disappointment I have about the fight is how Rafa and his camp acted afterwards. I understand that emotions are high, but someone in his camp needed to be at least partially sane about the whole thing. Calling for investigations, blaming the ref, the judges, etc. The post-fight press conference was a disgrace.


On a different note, check out their faces at the post-fight: [spoiler1]

[/spoiler1]

 

[BU1995Hockey]

Was Arturo Gatti meant to give Floyd the fight of a lifetime or something? Gatti looked somewhat bigger, how big was the build up to this one?

 

[BGrif21125]

Was Arturo Gatti meant to give Floyd the fight of a lifetime or something? Gatti looked somewhat bigger, how big was the build up to this one?

No, Gatti was simply a popular fighter with an exciting style and a good-sized Atlantic City fanbase. Both Mayweather and Gatti were HBO fighters, so it was an easy match to make, and they knew Gatti's fans would sellout the arena.

Anyone who had followed both guys' careers had a good idea that Mayweather would annihilate him.

At that time, Kostya Tszyu (longtime 140 pound champ) was the most natural opponent for Floyd, but Tszyu had a contract with Showtime, and HBO and Showtime don't work together. The only time they've co-produced a fight was Lewis-Tyson, because the money was simply too big to pass up.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I've been traveling a little bit, but I just got the chance to watch Marquez-Vasquez III and, wow! What can you add to what's already been said. An instant classic. Going to be hard-to-top for fight of the year and it ranks high on the list for Fight of the Decade.

I thought it was ironic that Marquez complained so bitterly about the referee calling that knockdown in the final 10 seconds, which did in fact cost Raf the fight on the scorecards. First, I believe the referee did precisely the right thing in calling that knockdown. But if he does not step in at the exact moment that he did, the fight's over anyway because Marquez was wide open, falling down, with his hands in the ropes. He's a sitting duck. Vasquez got one free shot in before the ref called the knockdown and pushed him away. If the ref lets it go there, Vasquez punches Marquez silly and he wins with no controversy at all.