SportsCenter & OTL Bringing Back Spygate (live, 9AM)

[BigJimEd]

I will say, if they were actually going into locker rooms and stealing play sheets, that's pretty fucked, but to be clear, they have literally no evidence as best I can tell.

I will say, if Jose was actually stealing kids Christmas presents, that's pretty fucked, but to be clear, they have literally no evidence best I can tell...

still where there's smoke...amirite?



That's the problem with these anonymous allegations without anything to back it up. They get repeated enough, even with qualifiers, that people started taking them as truth regardless of merit.
Smear campaign.

 

[gammoseditor]

 
 

 
 
For every anti-Patriots quote I can give you at least one pro-Patriots quote from the same article.  That's what I mean by balanced.  
 
Here's a few:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 
I don't see how quotes 2-4 are pro-patriot.  #2 insinuates cheating.  #4 is half pro patriot and half insinuates cheating.  #3 just talks about how the NFL changed it's rules to make it easier to catch teams cheating.  

 

[Hoya81]

 
That is not what your link is arguing.  
 
That article is saying there should be an investigation, because this is a very serious allegation, and the author is encouraging a member of the Pats organization to come forth and come clean.
 
And, frankly, I'll be shocked if the league doesn't use this as another bite at the apple vis a vis the Patriots.  

There's no way that this goes anywhere unless one of these unnamed former patriots sources goes to the NFL and turns them in. After deflategate, no one will want to be involved in something that may involve them in a federal court action down the line.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

I will say, if Jose was actually stealing kids Christmas presents, that's pretty fucked, but to be clear, they have literally no evidence best I can tell...
still where there's smoke...amirite?
That's the problem with these anonymous allegations without anything to back it up. They get repeated enough, even with qualifiers, that people started taking them as truth regardless of merit.
Smear campaign.

Former members of the organization and coaching staff aren't anonymous sources off the street.

 

[rodderick]

I wonder what it is about football fans specifically that gets them in such fits of righteous rage about shit like "classiness", "cheating" and "running up the score". Teams are suspected of signal stealing in baseball all the time (which has a much more direct impact in the outcome of a game) and people don't generally care; pitchers are suspected of using substances in their gloves/arm for better grip once a month and no one really gives a shit; fans are even starting to come around to the idea that leaving guys like Clemens and Bonds out of the Hall of Fame for steroid use is kind of stupid.

Why is football this sacrosaint game that has to be played at the highest of gentlemanly standards, otherwise it's a personal afront to americans everywhere?

 

[doc]

 

The Seahawks trained in Tempe, on Arizona State’s outdoor practice fields, which left a large perimeter to secure. They worked hard to secure it. They hired extra guards and scanned any area nearby with a vantage point of the field. Security personnel monitored what locals call “A” Mountain, the 1,400-foot hill that towers above the university’s athletic complex. They combed the parking garage and parking lots between Sun Devil Stadium and the practice fields. And they checked around the boundary of the complex, where baseball and softball fields and various buildings provided clear views of Seattle’s Super Bowl drills. Several observers who have attended practices for other Super Bowls noted the unusual, Secret Service–like level of activity.
The Seahawks didn’t discover any covert operations. Most of the time New England’s opponents don’t.
 

 
 
 
 
 
My favorite part of the SI article...the Seahawks were paranoid and went to great lengths to discover...nothing. So it must be proof that the Pats did something.
 
http://www.si.com/nf...y?xid=si_social

We should spread a rumor that Kraft and BB have had their own spy satellite for years, why do you think he gave Putin the ring.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Why is football this sacrosaint game that has to be played at the highest of gentlemanly standards, otherwise it's a personal afront to americans everywhere?

 
Because of the amount of money Americans bet on the games

 

[DJnVa]

We should spread a rumor that Kraft and BB have had their own spy satellite for years, why do you think he gave Putin the ring.

 
Oh I like that. It's like Ice Cube and his porcelain dolls.

 

[brandonchristensen]

I wonder what it is about football fans specifically that gets them in such fits of righteous rage about shit like "classiness", "cheating" and "running up the score". Teams are suspected of signal stealing in baseball all the time (which has a much more direct impact in the outcome of a game) and people don't generally care; pitchers are suspected of using substances in their gloves/arm for better grip once a month and no one really gives a shit; fans are even starting to come around to the idea that leaving guys like Clemens and Bonds out of the Hall of Fame for steroid use is kind of stupid.

Why is football this sacrosaint game that has to be played at the highest of gentlemanly standards, otherwise it's a personal afront to americans everywhere?

Because their teams are shitty still.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

 
Exactly.  The "Patriots are big, dirty cheaters" storyline is about 99% myth, rumor, urban legend, and flat out lies.  But an awful lot of people want to believe it, so it just continues on.  
 
Slate's Hang Up and Listen podcast did a segment on Deflategate a few weeks ago.  It's normally a pretty good podcast, with reasoned opinions and intelligent debates.  They had a seemingly intelligent guest on, who was a Jets fan.  Now granted, our first reaction would be, "Oh, a Jets fan on to talk about Deflategate.  That seems fair and balanced."  And it went pretty much exactly like how you would expect.  He's going on and on about how the Wells Report is rock solid, the science is solid, the conclusions are sound.... and it's just completely maddening to listen to this without anyone calling him out.  At the very end, in a rare moment of introspection, he acknowledges some self doubt that maybe, just maybe, the fact that he is a Jets fan who hates the Patriots may be causing him to see ghosts everywhere when it comes to his hated rivals.  But he ultimately discards that opinion, basically deferring to the "where there's smoke, there's fire" canard that I mentioned up thread, and then compares the Patriots to Lance Armstrong.
 
Willful ignorance and self-delusion are both very dangerous and affect a large number of people on this planet.  Unfortunately, you see otherwise intelligent people do the same mental gymnastics on issues far more important than football.  They pick a conclusion and work backwards from there, rather than examining the facts and forming an opinion based on their merits.  Most fans of the other 31 teams want to believe that the Patriots win by cheating.  So that narrative marches on.

 
Adding on to this, once a conclusion is reached, almost all the political science research suggests that it is very, very hard to persuade people to change their minds using facts (search for the work of Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler on the 'backfire effect' - which I'm pretty sure has been mentioned upthread), and that's even when it comes to things that have a material impact on their children's health, such as the safety and efficacy of vaccinations. You have to lead people to accept the facts in a way that doesn't change their beliefs.
 
In this case, I think the warm Gatorade thing is actually an interesting anecdote to use to change some people's minds, because it comports somewhat with their idea that the Patriots will push the limit of what is acceptable - while clearly showing that the worst example SI could show was something that is faintly amusing rather than nefarious. But you can't change everyone's mind, or even that of a majority.

 

[edmunddantes]

At the end of the day, America's Game is airing tonight. It tells the story of the world champion New England Patriots.

Watch it. Enjoy.

 

[Montana Fan]

Now I know how the Pats kept it so close versus the Giants in Super Bowls 42 and 46.  Damn cheaters.

 

[BigJimEd]

Former members of the organization and coaching staff aren't anonymous sources off the street.

you are right. I was thinking that came from opponents. My bad.
Still without knowledge of the employees or their positions I can't give it much credence.

 

[TheoShmeo]

Something that never made sense to me about DG was why the NFL didn't handle it with even a little bit of common sense.

Why the sting?  Why the awful, misleading leaks?  Why take down one of the most "likable" players in the league?  Really, the Derek Jeter/Jerry West/Magic Johnson/Wayne Gretzky type face of the game guy.  That's who you're going to go after as if he kidnapped Lindbergh's baby?

It remains astounding.

The adult move would have been a phone call to the Pats about a report they received, etc.  If the allegations were true, that they were willing to risk the Pats actually HAVING a potential competitive advantage in the first half of the AFC Championship game never made sense...until you consider that even the NFL probably always knew that the ball pressure being off was a near irrelevancy so allowing the Pats that supposed advantage was for the greater good, and that catching the Pats was a higher level value all along.  But when the crime is a low level misdemeanor, it was hard to grasp at the time and still makes zero sense in a DG only prism.
 
Of course, I always knew that SpyGate was viewed as underpunished but I never fully appreciated the extent to which this was the NFL's chance for gotcha and righting the wrong, even though many had speculated on that previously.

Today's articles shed some light on the NFL's twisted motivation.

The thing that is still quite hard to wrap my brain around is the utter callousness around allowing Tom to be the sacrificial lamb.  I mean, I get that they were not happy with Tom for not cooperating, but consider the sequence:
 
- Lingering anger at SpyGate
 
- Goodell looking for a way to get his chance to punish the Pats and likely the Big Bad Hoodie, the man viewed as the person behind all the chicanery
 
- Reports emerge regarding ball pressure ahead of the AFC Championship
 
- Rather than taking preventative measures (like any other normal league would do), the NFL plans to measure the balls at half time and hopes to catch the Pats with balls that are too low
 
- Some level of funny business is detected, albeit with a keystone cops methodology
 
- an Investigative Report is ordered up and conducted
 
- BB -- presumably the real target -- is exonerated but the team is nevertheless penalized with the loss of picks and dollars
 
- Tom Brady, three time SB MVP, lock HOFer, golden boy, becomes the next intended victim so that real punishment can be extracted on...the Patriots
 
I mean, if this is how this whole thing really unfolded, it's completely shameful.  And gutless.  I could understand, somewhat, targeting Bill.
 
But to make Tom the sacrifice to the extent the NFL sought for the sins of SpyGate and other assorted rule bending?  That's some nasty, and cold hearted, stuff.

 

[Peak Oil Can Boyd]

 

1. 
   http://sports.yahoo.com/news/latest-cheating-allegation-against-patriots-is-most-damning-of-all-180544622.html
   

LOGIC!
 

 
 
So, teams are so ridiculously paranoid about facing the Patriots that they're padlocking locker rooms, fencing off perimeters (including watching an entire fucking mountain for people filming), bug sweeping for listening devices.... and a low-level Patriots employee is able to infiltrate the visiting locker room Mission Impossible-style and steal arguably the most important (and presumably, guarded) piece of pre-game intelligence.
 
We just have to start taking this as flattery.

 

[rodderick]

 
 
So, teams are so ridiculously paranoid about facing the Patriots that they're padlocking locker rooms, fencing off perimeters (including watching an entire fucking mountain for people filming), bug sweeping for listening devices.... and a low-level Patriots employee is able to infiltrate the visiting locker room Mission Impossible-style and steal arguably the most important (and presumably, guarded) piece of pre-game intelligence.
 
We just have to start taking this as flattery.

And don't forget, instead of trying to find a way to catch said employee on the act and bring the issue to the league to stop it once and for all, they take the measure of putting a dummy playsheet there for the guy to steal. If that scenario were true, it tells me one of two things: the team affected does the same shit and doesn't want to bring the league's attention to it; or it's so prevalent, and, to a degree, thought of as harmless that they take it as a chance to play a prank on Bill.

 

[bankshot1]

I'm skipping ahead, but when does the paranoia about the Pats get turned into a parody?
 
This shit is fucking crazy.

 

[nighthob]

Because of the amount of money Americans bet on the games

Wait, teams should willingly not score because of the amounts wagered?

 

[djbayko]

 
Because of the amount of money Americans bet on the games

No, it's simply because the Patriots win and people enjoy tearing down success.

Gamblers should be taking the Patriots' practices and procedures into account every week, whether or not they think that involves cheating. It's all bundled into their performance.

 

[Harry Hooper]

And don't forget, instead of trying to find a way to catch said employee on the act and bring the issue to the league to stop it once and for all, they take the measure of putting a dummy playsheet there for the guy to steal. If that scenario were true, it tells me one of two things: the team affected does the same shit and doesn't want to bring the league's attention to it; or it's so prevalent, and, to a degree, thought of as harmless that they take it as a chance to play a prank on Bill.

 
I still doubt that these sheets of plays even exist. Why does the running back need to know before the game starts that play #14 will be a toss sweep right?

 

[troparra]

Now I know how the Pats kept it so close versus the Giants in Super Bowls 42 and 46.  Damn cheaters.

 
Exactly.  How do you think they went 4-2 in close Super Bowls when the odds would have them at only 3-3?

 

[edmunddantes]

I wish I was in the local market so I could see the whole pre-game festivities. It should be interesting to see how the Pats play this opening night "song and dance" show. 

 

[brandonchristensen]

They need to buy a bunch of dummy security cams and put them everywhere in the visitors clubhouse. Put them under the visiting bench. Put them everywhere.

 

[rodderick]

They need to buy a bunch of dummy security cams and put them everywhere in the visitors clubhouse. Put them under the visiting bench. Put them everywhere.

That and cardboard cut outs of a guy holding a camera up on the hills overseeing teams walkthroughs.

 

[nighthob]

That and cardboard cut outs of a guy holding a camera up on the hills overseeing teams walkthroughs.

Inflatable spies with cardboard cameras, and then secretly film the league security personnel catching the airheads in the act and upload the results to their new Pats, Psych! Youtube channel.

 

[brandonchristensen]

Leave ball gauges, or a needle of sorts everywhere. A handful of them in the ball bags.

Turn it up to 11

 

[Shelterdog]

I wish I was in the local market so I could see the whole pre-game festivities. It should be interesting to see how the Pats play this opening night "song and dance" show. 

 
They're going to post them on patriots.com on Friday.
 
Unless Steven Tyler, Pedroia, Steven King, a lobster roll and zombie Henry David Thoreau gang up, form New England Voltron and declare jihad on the NFL. Then I'm guessing they NFL doesn't let them post it.

 

[wiffleballhero]

Talk about in for a penny, in for a pound. Does ESPN even bother with an ombudsman anymore? Ha.

 

[Harry Hooper]

They need to buy a bunch of dummy security cams and put them everywhere in the visitors clubhouse. Put them under the visiting bench. Put them everywhere.

 
 
NFL as Tip Tucker? Works for me. Go to about 2:15 in the clip.

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

They need to buy a bunch of dummy security cams and put them everywhere in the visitors clubhouse. Put them under the visiting bench. Put them everywhere.

I was envisioning some comedically large old-tyme radio microphones, with the huge bases and the rings around the top part:
 

 

[canderson]

A Steelers fan wants this to go to Congress, BB be barred from NFL for life, and Kraft and Goodell to see criminal charges brought against them.
 
He's dead serious. 

 

[doc]

Rumor has it these guys are on the Pats staff
 

 
 
 
And these guys do the club house maintenance at Gillette
 

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

 
 
So, teams are so ridiculously paranoid about facing the Patriots that they're padlocking locker rooms, fencing off perimeters (including watching an entire fucking mountain for people filming), bug sweeping for listening devices.... and a low-level Patriots employee is able to infiltrate the visiting locker room Mission Impossible-style and steal arguably the most important (and presumably, guarded) piece of pre-game intelligence.
 
We just have to start taking this as flattery.[/quot

Or... All this is made up BS

 

[DJnVa]

Love the KenTremendous line on twitter that is saying that the Patriots angling a kickoff towards the sideline is apparently evidence of cheating.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

I wish I was in the local market so I could see the whole pre-game festivities. It should be interesting to see how the Pats play this opening night "song and dance" show. 

 
Jeff Howe ‏@jeffphowe  21m21 minutes ago
Jeff Howe retweeted abdul
I also asked that question. It's supposed to be carried live on NBC.

 

[brandonchristensen]

Just got the rundown of how Van Natta wouldn't be writing unless it was true. Blah blah blah

 

[wiffleballhero]

A Steelers fan wants this to go to Congress, BB be barred from NFL for life, and Kraft and Goodell to see criminal charges brought against them.
 
He's dead serious. 

Sounds like someone is excited about Thursday's game!
 
You should suggest he endorse some good, old fashion 'trial-by-ordeal' for Brady and Belichick: tie stones to their necks and throw them in the river (the old, if they sink they are innocent, if they float they are witches).

 

[canderson]

Sounds like someone is excited about Thursday's game!
 
You should suggest he endorse some good, old fashion 'trial-by-ordeal' for Brady and Belichick: tie stones to their necks and throw them in the river (the old, if they sink they are innocent, if they float they are witches).

He has Steelers season tickets ... that he is eating because they signed Vick. He is going to write a letter every game to the owners saying why he isn't going to any of the games. 

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

He has Steelers season tickets ... that he is eating because they signed Vick. He is going to write a letter every game to the owners saying why he isn't going to any of the games. 

So he favors rapists instead. Good guy.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Googling Tom Brady Cheating and Polamalou turned up a very very telling issue of cheating: 
 

 
Troy lines up on Amendola, but cheats towards Edelman and completely giving away his coverage.
 

 
Brady reads it like a Dr. Seuss book, goes to Amendola. Troy runs after Amendola like a bottle of Head and Shoulders and is 15 yards behind.
 

 
Touchdown!
 
I'm assuming Brady stole the play sheet ahead of the game.
 
 
http://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2013/11/04/troy-polamalu-pittsburgh-steelers-new-england-patriots

 

[nattysez]

I wonder what it is about football fans specifically that gets them in such fits of righteous rage about shit like "classiness", "cheating" and "running up the score". Teams are suspected of signal stealing in baseball all the time (which has a much more direct impact in the outcome of a game) and people don't generally care; pitchers are suspected of using substances in their gloves/arm for better grip once a month and no one really gives a shit; fans are even starting to come around to the idea that leaving guys like Clemens and Bonds out of the Hall of Fame for steroid use is kind of stupid.

Why is football this sacrosaint game that has to be played at the highest of gentlemanly standards, otherwise it's a personal afront to americans everywhere?

 
It has forever been thus.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoWsPRzzia8

 

[wiffleballhero]

Maybe someone else has noted this already, but reading this hatchet job on ESPN, I love this line:
 
"When Bill Belichick became coach of the Browns in 1991, he hired Adams to be a consigliere of sorts."
 
They should go all-in and do some six degrees of Kevin Bacon so we can get Belichick into Cosa Nostra.
 
Is this parody yet?

 

[Seels]

Honestly I don't even care anymore. For all I give a shit Brady and Gronk come out to the NWO theme and have Donald Trump as a team captain ala Hulk Hogan. Fuck every other football fan.

 

[Hoya81]

Finally had a chance to read every word of the ESPN story. In all, it's as bad for Roger Goodell as it is for the Patriots. Possibly worse.
— ProFootballTalk (@ProFootballTalk) September 8, 2015

 

[Devizier]

He has Steelers season tickets ... that he is eating because they signed Vick. He is going to write a letter every game to the owners saying why he isn't going to any of the games. 

 
Hypocrite? Moron? Too many to choose from.

 

[bankshot1]

We should spread a rumor that Kraft and BB have had their own spy satellite for years, why do you think he gave Putin the ring.

Thanks-I needed the laugh
 
#KGB

 

[glennhoffmania]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but these were Roger's comments earlier.  Forget about the substance for a moment.  This man can't put together a coherent sentence.  But sure, he's a great choice to continue leading a multi-billion dollar organization. 
 

Goodell hasn't weighed in directly on the ESPN report yet, but he said Tuesday morning in an appearance on ESPN Radio: "I have not seen this report ... in any way, but I can just tell you I'm not aware of any connection between the Spygate procedures and the procedures we went through here. We obviously learn from every time we go through any kind of a process, try to improve it, get better at it, but there's no connection in my mind to the two incidents."
 

 

[edmunddantes]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but these were Roger's comments earlier.  Forget about the substance for a moment.  This man can't put together a coherent sentence.  But sure, he's a great choice to continue leading a multi-billion dollar organization. 
 

Even though in my punishment of Brady and the Patriots, my underling, Troy Vincent, who of course was only re-iterating the punishment I laid down, he totally didn't make it up on his own, said they were directly related, and in fact were the reason why we had to enhance the punishment of the Patriots. So Yes. Totally un-related. 

 

[djbayko]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but thesewere Roger's comments earlier.  Forget about the substance for a moment.  This man can't put together a coherent sentence.  But sure, he's a great choice to continue leading a multi-billion dollar organization. 
 

Goodell hasn't weighed in directly on the ESPN report yet, but he said Tuesday morning in an appearance on ESPN Radio: "I have not seen this report ... in any way, but I can just tell you I'm not aware of any connection between the Spygate procedures and the procedures we went through here. We obviously learn from every time we go through any kind of a process, try to improve it, get better at it, but there's no connection in my mind to the two incidents."

That's strange wording for just trying to say you haven't read the article yet, isn't it? The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I'm sure he was surprised by the Wells report too.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

That's strange wording for just trying to say you haven't read the article yet, isn't it? The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I'm sure he was surprised by the Wells report too.

 
What? You think that ESPN gave heads up to their main revenue stream and their Commander in Chief about a report skewering the Patriots (and to somewhat Goodell)they released leading up to his interview? Then only asked him a vague question about it? 
 
ESPN is a news outlet sir. I'm disgusted.