Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
No, the exact opposite. Everyone tries to cheat, yet Brady throws it a bit more often to the endzone than the other guys.
SportsCenter & OTL Bringing Back Spygate (live, 9AM)
- Thread starter Lose Remerswaal
- Start date
No, the exact opposite. Everyone tries to cheat, yet Brady throws it a bit more often to the endzone than the other guys.
Exactly. Have they ever really even denied that? Unless I've got the timeline messed up, wasn't the one too game many they taped after the memo prior to week 1 in 2007 the only time they were really in violation of league policy?rodderick said:
Had MDU on as I listen to morning men on the way to work. There was actual callers suggesting the NFL give the patriots the NCAA style death penalty.
How did they ever lose a game if they had the signals? Oh that's right the game is played on the field and Tim generally aware that it was more probable than not the Pats were the better team from 2001 on.NortheasternPJ said:
The league policy regarding videotaping was "clarified" prior to the 2006 season with a memo sent by the league office to all the teams, in response to accusations against the Patriots and other teams. However, there were some complaints by teams during the 2006 season that the Patriots were still videotaping from the sidelines; Mike Holmgren complained about it during his post-game interview after the Packers lost to the Pats in Green Bay. He called it "annoying" and noted that "it's supposed to be illegal" or similar. So technically they were in violation of the rule at least once during the 2006 season.cornwalls@6 said:
In 2007, the contents of the league memo made it into the league's policy manual for game operations. The language was pretty clear, and ignoring the language contained in the policy manual wasn't exactly one of Belichick's brighter moments.
There was never, ever a ban against taping opponent's signals. The Pats would have technically been violating the rule had they been taping the other team's cheerleaders (which apparently happened at least once).
I strongly suggest taking a look at the following link, which gives a lot more detailed information regarding timeline, etc.
http://yourteamcheats.com/what-is-spygate
I won't watch ESPN and havn't watched since the BS started with Mort's fraudulent tweet.
Far as I can read, there is ZERO evidence of anything regarding all the accusations outside of the one thing The Patriots admitted and were punished for in a totally outrageous manner.
As per usual normally rational people just read the headlines and assume there is actual evidence. I ask them all to provide some and as in the case of the supposedly deflated footballs, I've never seen any.
This report is as egregious as it gets as it is simply meant to capture the clicks of the Patriots haters. Fans of all the teams that have often been beaten by them.
I wish this stuff didn't get me angry but it does. Through the roof pissed off.
Far as I can read, there is ZERO evidence of anything regarding all the accusations outside of the one thing The Patriots admitted and were punished for in a totally outrageous manner.
As per usual normally rational people just read the headlines and assume there is actual evidence. I ask them all to provide some and as in the case of the supposedly deflated footballs, I've never seen any.
This report is as egregious as it gets as it is simply meant to capture the clicks of the Patriots haters. Fans of all the teams that have often been beaten by them.
I wish this stuff didn't get me angry but it does. Through the roof pissed off.
I hope they investigate this. All of it. I want Goodell to personally stick a thermometer in the Pats' Gatorade.Ed Hillel said:
If they managed to botch the ballghazi investigation that badly, can anyone even imagine what would happen if they tried to ascertain whether or not the Patriots had employees steal opponent's playsheets 8+ years ago? Goodell doesn't want this. If I'm Kraft this would also be the point where I go to Bill and ask him if he knows of anything shady other teams might be doing, and alert the league of that fact. If anonymous complaints are enough for a full scale investigation, let's take advantage of that precedent.
See, this is a symptom of a problem that truly worries me.RedOctober3829 said:
90% of the people that read the ESPN headline will ignore what it means for Goodell and his lack of leadership. Instead, they will jump on the "the Pats cheated and got off easy" bandwagon, and accept the articles findings as fact. So will the local mediots.
Goodell loses nothing by ignoring that noise. Hell, the ESPN article says the owners have his back even more now that he attempted to suspend Brady. The league is not going to lose viewers, sponsors, broadcast revenue or anything else due to the ESPN article. However, as we've seen with Deflategate, it's not clear Goodell is smart enough to realize that, and we know he's very beholden to the Jets fans in the league office that do respond to the whims of the Pats haters. So we'll see if he decides to turn this into "something".
EDIT: Kraft needs to be ready to go nuclear here. There's no point in "cooperating" with another investigation.
Forgot I live within reach of Oakland fan territory.RedOctober3829 said:
Accidentally listened to raimi and kinkaid (sp? no clue) radio show railing on Pats and how they should have had Super Bowls taken away. Except if NFL did that no one would believe what they watch (NFL as WWE) so even though pats did enough to basically deserve title stripping NFL can't do it.
Also quoting ESPN article as everything is fact based versus innuendo. So unless you are more than a casual fan willing to dig into the minutiae, all you hear is "Pats are confirmed cheaters and spy gate was even worse than we thought"
One of them, Kinkaid, actually said that. He thought spy gate was bad before this. Now he thinks it's even worse because of the newest ESPN article.
To quote from the ESPN story:
"Inside a room accessible only to Belichick and a few others, they found a library of scouting material containing videotapes of opponents' signals, with detailed notes matching signals to plays for many teams going back seven seasons. Among them were handwritten diagrams of the defensive signals of the Pittsburgh Steelers, including the notes used in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game won by the Patriots 24-17."
(A) Who should have had access to the room? The Doritodink twins? Season ticket holders? What is sinister about restricting who gets into the room?
(B) Why does it matter that the diagrams are handwritten? Is the allegation that Bill roofied Cowher and stole them off a cocktail napkin?
(C through Z) It was not illegal to tape opponents' signals. Again, depending on where they are taped from, Hoodie could still have his secret bunker with retinal clearance and stick figure diagrams today. And it would be legal.
The ESPN report states, "the Patriots didn't want any of [the taped material] to leave the building, arguing that some of it was obtained legally and thus was proprietary." It strikes me that the "some of it" was more likely than not (a favorite NFL phrase) the tapes from all prior years, before the clarifying memo. Given that this happened on September 18, the most number of tapes that could have been obtained illegally is 6, two regular season games plus 4 preseason.
"Inside a room accessible only to Belichick and a few others, they found a library of scouting material containing videotapes of opponents' signals, with detailed notes matching signals to plays for many teams going back seven seasons. Among them were handwritten diagrams of the defensive signals of the Pittsburgh Steelers, including the notes used in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game won by the Patriots 24-17."
(A) Who should have had access to the room? The Doritodink twins? Season ticket holders? What is sinister about restricting who gets into the room?
(B) Why does it matter that the diagrams are handwritten? Is the allegation that Bill roofied Cowher and stole them off a cocktail napkin?
(C through Z) It was not illegal to tape opponents' signals. Again, depending on where they are taped from, Hoodie could still have his secret bunker with retinal clearance and stick figure diagrams today. And it would be legal.
The ESPN report states, "the Patriots didn't want any of [the taped material] to leave the building, arguing that some of it was obtained legally and thus was proprietary." It strikes me that the "some of it" was more likely than not (a favorite NFL phrase) the tapes from all prior years, before the clarifying memo. Given that this happened on September 18, the most number of tapes that could have been obtained illegally is 6, two regular season games plus 4 preseason.
Rational actors wouldn't want to touch a new investigation of this with a ten foot pole. But we are clearly not dealing anything like rational actors. I'm with you. Nothing these people do would shock me at this point.Ed Hillel said:
OnWisc has the spank machine running:
https://twitter.com/chicagofakenews/status/641270618277740545
https://twitter.com/chicagofakenews/status/641334139480879105
https://twitter.com/chicagofakenews/status/641270618277740545
https://twitter.com/chicagofakenews/status/641334139480879105
ESPN, talk radio, etc etc. all profit from stirring up controversy. That's been their MO for years now. Best to just ignore it all at this point.
The time to worry is if this gets into the TNF broadcast and Al & Cris start moralizing on this. Then we'll know that the entire game has been corrupted. Until then, I'm (cautiously) holding out hope that this is just a one-day story that will be long-forgotten by the time the games begin.
The time to worry is if this gets into the TNF broadcast and Al & Cris start moralizing on this. Then we'll know that the entire game has been corrupted. Until then, I'm (cautiously) holding out hope that this is just a one-day story that will be long-forgotten by the time the games begin.
I don't see it. Spygate has already been disciplined. The owners have already seen the deflategate investigation turn into a mess and there's been enough ownership/coaching turnover among the "impacted" teams that nobody will make a big stink publicly. It's possible that this just goes away once week 1 gets going.Ed Hillel said:
NFL coaches are paranoid to the point they will call plays by covering their mouths because they are afraid that someone from the opposing team is a master lip reader yet will have no problem leaving a play sheet somewhere that can be easily found and stolen!? Then when they realize that low-level employees are stealing said play sheet they make up a fake play sheet? Wouldn't a coach guard said play sheet with their life? Why wouldn't one just hold on to the fucking play sheet if you thought something nefarious was occurring instead of taking time to create a fake play sheet!? What a waste of energy. This makes no sense, yet I made the mistake of thinking so I apologize.
AB in DC said:
That was what I thought when the original deflate story came out. And that was with the biggest game of the year coming up.
The reality is that the press reports the things that get the clicks, and what the last 7 months seem to have taught us is that Patriots-are-cheaters hits a nerve in a way that is virtually unprecedented. It's a golden goose, and it's hard to see why those who stand to benefit would back off. And those who don't have to answer questions about domestic violence and concussions are highly incentivized to play along.
But, there is nothing we as Patriots fans can do when the appetite of those who crave these stories seems to be limitless. A baseball team was accused of hacking into one of their opponents' evaluation systems or whatever earlier this year. A team that has had prolonged and sustained success that perhaps rivals that of the Patriots, and the story came and went in two days. There is something about this story that touches something and while there have been various theories about why, it has gone so far beyond reason and understanding at this point, that it's hard to say anything but that it is what it is.
And the sad truth is that once this one blows over -- whether after another prolonged treatment, investigation and sanctions or even Congressional hearings or after a couple of days -- the next one is right around the corner. When there is no accountability and the headline becomes the narrative, this is a perpetual motion machine. You can just keep churning the shit out.
Further sanctions from Spygate aren't coming. That's over and done.
What we should be fearful of is ESPN & NFL continuing with these coordinated attacks, using baseless accusations of minor infractions that may pop up during the season from opponents to justify another -gate.
What we should be fearful of is ESPN & NFL continuing with these coordinated attacks, using baseless accusations of minor infractions that may pop up during the season from opponents to justify another -gate.
If only the NFL had some sort of a panel or body tasked with overseeing issues related to competitive balance, maybe they could have addressed some of these allegations.
Marciano490 said:
Just wanted to second this---a bunch of complexity and reasons the Pats are not likely to actually go there, but running a sidebar with a wholly unproven statement as a fact is how you end up paying large defamation settlements.
At least, if the statement is false
I've come to the conclusion that nothing I can ever say or do will change this perception of the Patriots. I can't compete with ESPN. So until TB and BB retire and the Kraft family sells the team, I have adopted the "Fuck It" stance:
You think we cheated? Fine. I don't care what you think, because winning is awesome and your team sucks for letting a competing franchise have its way with the league. So while you're busy trying to find the shooter on the grassy knoll, we'll keep on cheating and hoisting banners.
Kiss. My. Ass.
You think we cheated? Fine. I don't care what you think, because winning is awesome and your team sucks for letting a competing franchise have its way with the league. So while you're busy trying to find the shooter on the grassy knoll, we'll keep on cheating and hoisting banners.
Kiss. My. Ass.
So let me get this straight the Patriots have sent low level employees into opposing team locker room to steal play sheets and this took place during 2000-2007. So for this to be true this is what have had to of happened:
1. "Low level employees" had to sneak into the visitors locker room on game day without ever being caught.
2. "Low level employees" must be an extremely trusted source.
3. This practice was so we'll known that players and coaches knew about it.
4. Only a few (out of what I assume hundreds) of ex players and coaches were willing to talk about it off the record.
5. Not one low level employee, player, or coach has gone on the record with this accusation. We are not talking about speaking out against State Govt here.
6. Dummy play sheets were left out - but no mention in the story if they were lifted.
7. No specific example of sheets being stolen.
8. A high school coach would know better than leave that type of Intel in a visitors locker room.
1. "Low level employees" had to sneak into the visitors locker room on game day without ever being caught.
2. "Low level employees" must be an extremely trusted source.
3. This practice was so we'll known that players and coaches knew about it.
4. Only a few (out of what I assume hundreds) of ex players and coaches were willing to talk about it off the record.
5. Not one low level employee, player, or coach has gone on the record with this accusation. We are not talking about speaking out against State Govt here.
6. Dummy play sheets were left out - but no mention in the story if they were lifted.
7. No specific example of sheets being stolen.
8. A high school coach would know better than leave that type of Intel in a visitors locker room.
What's mind-blowing is the real story, Brady getting prosecuted and railroaded for the real/imagined Pats SPYGATE transgressions is getting lost in this ESPN/NFL bullshit. And that its seen by the owners as a legitimate use of RG's power to make a make-up call on an unrelated player, is pathetic.
I've no idea what remedies Kraft has if this bullshit continues, but I'm fucking disgusted.
I've no idea what remedies Kraft has if this bullshit continues, but I'm fucking disgusted.
Might be the other way around. During warmups or as the game is starting TB12 chats up the refs:soxhop411 said:
TB: yeah the NFL really tried to railroad me. Whatever. I'm just glad we beat the suit, you know, for the union. Those NFL guys will do anything to beat the union down. You refs ever have that happen to you guys?
Ref, to self: hmmmm, doesn't chap me either way if the patriots win or lose...but fuck the NFL....
The secret room with the videotapes is interesting, if not for reasons ESPN suggests. OK, so you have a room filled to the wall with taped sideline signals from games. So...where are the alleged tapes of all these practices and walkthroughs? Are they in a second secret room? In an underground bunker? Where? I find it interesting that, with full access granted under league mandate to a whole room filled with illegal videotapes, no one has come up with a single tape of the presumably SUPER-ILLEGAL!!1! further videotapes.
BTW, I'm totally speculating but I'd be shocked if the unnamed, kvetching executive whose team lost the Super Bowl to the Patriots wasn't Marty Hurney, former Panthers GM and current sports radio host. As I recall, he bitched extensively about how convinced he was the Pats taped their Super Bowl practices, too--again with no evidence whatsoever--and Christian Fauria went on the radio to basically demolish the charge as a purely logistical matter (involving the distances across town between where the two organizations stayed, the super-tight security measures for anyone who even purported to be a member of the media, let alone some unidentified dude lugging a video camera, etc.).
BTW, I'm totally speculating but I'd be shocked if the unnamed, kvetching executive whose team lost the Super Bowl to the Patriots wasn't Marty Hurney, former Panthers GM and current sports radio host. As I recall, he bitched extensively about how convinced he was the Pats taped their Super Bowl practices, too--again with no evidence whatsoever--and Christian Fauria went on the radio to basically demolish the charge as a purely logistical matter (involving the distances across town between where the two organizations stayed, the super-tight security measures for anyone who even purported to be a member of the media, let alone some unidentified dude lugging a video camera, etc.).
SemperFidelisSox said:
Stealing play sheets has nothing to do with spygate. If you don't think this leads to anything, then I have a real estate deal I'd like to do with you.
EDIT: I mean Yahoo Sports which has been the most reasonable national media outlet through the last 7 months is now calling for an investigation.
This is really Goodell's doing and it is totally spinning out of control. Everyone outside of NE wants, is begging for, another investigation even though they won't trust it if it exonerates the Patriots and they won't be happy if it finds them guilty but the punishment is too light (which is BB not banned for life, Krafts still own the Pats, Brady not banned for life). Anything short of a finding of guilty or Brady and BB still NFL-eligible will be considered a travesty of justice, which means the next scandal will just be on the horizon.
Please turn to NFLN at 10:00, enjoy and relax.
The NFL owners got their payback on DFG penalties.
No proceedings will flow from these shot-in-the-ribs articles.
But as I have been saying for weeks, the pats are not safe on a going forward basis. The team should act accordingly.
The NFL owners got their payback on DFG penalties.
No proceedings will flow from these shot-in-the-ribs articles.
But as I have been saying for weeks, the pats are not safe on a going forward basis. The team should act accordingly.
RedOctober3829 said:
Remember when we were laughing that every Mortenson tweet was greeted by derisive replies?
Well, click on NFL Films twitter account for any tweet today about America's Game tonight. It's 95% "don't give cheaters airtime" type of things.
There's no way this ever comes back around. None.
Exactly. Only option is to go full heel at this point and embrace the hate.RedOctober3829 said:
Wetzel with another good article:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/alleged-locker-room-break-ins--secret-tapes-and-hamptons-parties--the-patriots-way-191617766.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/alleged-locker-room-break-ins--secret-tapes-and-hamptons-parties--the-patriots-way-191617766.html
The "Kraft should go nuclear" idea has been discussed off and on in the last half year mostly to the conclusion that he never will because he's still part of the club, raking in the money, etc. But at what point does his going nuclear make economic sense? How much of a hit is he willing for his brand to take throughout all of this? Surely this kind of character assassination lessens the value of the franchise or at least retards its growth.
Exact date? "Fifth of Never"koufax32 said:
Considering merchandise sales and TV money is pooled, his brand isn't hurt too much.
How so?
koufax32 said:
As I posted in one of the mega-threads, the Krafts need to embrace their inner Al. Not to actually win a lawsuit or whatever, but to put the NFL on notice that dealing with the Pats will be like wrestling with a porcupine. NFL stooges need to know that if they want to come after the Pats, they better have all their crap in order and be prepared to waste a ton of time and get wounded in the process
When you have the makings of a decent lawsuit.
I don't read garbage, so I have read neither article today. What factual assertions in either article are demonstrably false? Of those, which can you prove were made with actual malice? Then, how do you tie them to the NFL?
I don't read garbage, so I have read neither article today. What factual assertions in either article are demonstrably false? Of those, which can you prove were made with actual malice? Then, how do you tie them to the NFL?
