SportsCenter & OTL Bringing Back Spygate (live, 9AM)

Ed Hillel

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SemperFidelisSox said:
Major overreaction in here. The point of this was to show how the perceived improper handling of Spygate by Goodell set in motion the events of Deflategate. The story just goes into more detail about the various accusations made over the years that we already knew about, why also noting the lack of evidence each time. These suspicions and accusations created a perceived "culture of cheating" that many outside New England felt went ignored for years, putting Goodell in the position of having to use the trumped up charges of Deflategate to appease the masses this time around. This is attack on Goodell and NFL, not the Pats.
The SI piece that just so happens to coincide with this article is a direct attack on New England. As we can safely assume the timing of these articles is not mere coincidence, I'm going to disagree with you. They're both hitjobs that center around "Pats are big cheatie cheats, and you don't know the half of it! Well, neither do we, but look at these accusations from 50+ sources who have lost repeatedly to the Patriots over the past 15 years."
 

RedOctober3829

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On the next episode of Outside The Lines: Allegations of the Patriots cheating in order to make it rain, snow, windy, and below 32 degrees.  Unnamed owners say they got cheated out of wins.  Punishment rumored to be a $5 million fine and 5 first round picks.
 

Youkilis vs Wild

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Ed Hillel said:
The SI piece that just so happens to coincide with this article is a direct attack on New England. As we can safely assume the timing of these articles is not mere coincidence, I'm going to disagree with you. They're both hitjobs that center around "Pats are big cheatie cheats, and you don't know the half of it! Well, neither do we, but look at these accusations from 50+ sources who have lost repeatedly to the Patriots over the past 15 years."
How, exactly, and why, exactly, would SI and ESPN coordinate on this?
 

dcmissle

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It is a coordinated attack. Anyone naive enough to doubt that can line up behind worldly Bob Kraft.
 

nighthob

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PedroKsBambino said:
 
Making false statements under oath to Congress is---but what is suggested here is not likely to be.
 
Really, filing false documentation to Congressional committees and obstructing their investigations isn't a felony? Why would any company ever comply with one? (I'm genuinely curious here, I'm not being a wiseass (for a change))
 

rodderick

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SemperFidelisSox said:
Major overreaction in here. The point of this was to show how the perceived improper handling of Spygate by Goodell set in motion the events of Deflategate. The story just goes into more detail about the various accusations made over the years that we already knew about, why also noting the lack of evidence each time. These suspicions and accusations created a perceived "culture of cheating" that many outside New England felt went ignored for years, putting Goodell in the position of having to use the trumped up charges of Deflategate to appease the masses this time around. This is attack on Goodell and NFL, not the Pats.
The article spends 10 thousand of its 11 thousand words talking about every single imaginary infraction you can conjure up and about 500 words on the effect that had on the deflategate punishment. If the author of this piece didn't intend for it to be a platform through which teams could air their grievances about the Patriots, he failed miserably. By the end of the article so much shit has been smeared on Belichick and the Pats that Goodell's overreaction to deflategate almost sounds like a reasonable response to the rampant cheating that has gone unpunished for more than a decade.
 

WayBackVazquez

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nighthob said:
 
Really, filing false documentation to Congressional committees and obstructing their investigations isn't a felony? Why would any company ever comply with one? (I'm genuinely curious here, I'm not being a wiseass (for a change))
 
Look dude, nothing was "filed with a committee." Lying to a Senator is not a crime. There was no official investigation, and no oaths.
 

DJnVa

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Youkilis vs Wild said:
How, exactly, and why, exactly, would SI and ESPN coordinate on this?
 
You really think that both organizations, with deep ties to the NFL both randomly decided to release pieces on something 8 years old, within hours of each other?
 
Do you think the NFL, SI, and ESPN really can't coordinate something? The "how" is puzzling?
 

nighthob

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Youkilis vs Wild said:
How, exactly, and why, exactly, would SI and ESPN coordinate on this?
 
I don't know, it's almost as if there were an organization involved, like a major sports league, asking its media spokesmodels to do hitpieces on their current target.
 

Average Reds

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nighthob said:
Seriously? If I had a contract to produce a Patriots hitpiece for the NFL I could get 50+ sources to chitchat. If ESPN had taken months they would have hundreds. Also, if they had months they probably wouldn't have accidentally exposed an NFL felony.
nighthob said:
 
In the piece Mike Martz was shown his statement that was submitted to Senator Magic Bullet's investigation of the Cheaty Cheatriots that totally cheated his favourite team out their well deserved Super Bowl win. He claimed that his statement had been edited, and that wasn't what he said. This was part of the "That Goodell went too easy on the Chety Cheatriots!!!" narrative. Problem is that filing false documents to a congressional committee has to be some sort of felony.
 
A few points:
  • It's routine for a 30 minute report like this to take a couple of months to produce.  
  • Having said this, the timing was not accidental.  It was absolutely produced to coincide with the beginning of the regular season.
  • The fact that it came out a few days after Berman's ruling strikes me as being pure coincidence.  (No one knew back in July that Berman would rule this quickly.)
  • What you are identifying as a felony is nothing of the sort.  It's evidence that (8 years later) Martz thinks the document was edited. 
 

GregHarris

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If it was truly a report on the NFL and Goodell and their actions, why rehash all this Spygate crap?  Or add in all the new speculation?  It doesn't really help the narrative, but rather give support to the NFL follow up with DeflateGate.
 

Ed Hillel

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Youkilis vs Wild said:
How, exactly, and why, exactly, would SI and ESPN coordinate on this?
They don't, the NFL coordinates with them separately. Seriously, you think the timing of everything is mere chance? After Berman's decision, right before the opener, two at the same time? Some of this stuff is 8 years plus old.
 

Youkilis vs Wild

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DrewDawg said:
 
You really think that both organizations, with deep ties to the NFL both randomly decided to release pieces on something 8 years old, within hours of each other?
 
Do you think the NFL, SI, and ESPN really can't coordinate something? The "how" is puzzling?
They're competitors. And the Patriots just had a controversial offseason, and will be kicking off the NFL season in two days--it doesn't shock me that either organization had the pieces planned for this week.
 
The ESPN article is littered with issues -- the Faulk bit stands out the most egregiously to me. The SI piece does not read that ugly, in my opinion. "Patriots are in NFL coaches' heads" is quite a far ways off from the substance of ESPN report.
 

Average Reds

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DrewDawg said:
 
You really think that both organizations, with deep ties to the NFL both randomly decided to release pieces on something 8 years old, within hours of each other?
 
Do you think the NFL, SI, and ESPN really can't coordinate something? The "how" is puzzling?
 
I agree with your perspective. 
 
SI and ESPN may not have coordinated their reporting, but there's no way they both release stories like this (taking weeks/months to produce) on the same topic within hours of each other by coincidence.
 

Youkilis vs Wild

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Ed Hillel said:
They don't, the NFL coordinates with them separately. Seriously, you think the timing of everything is mere chance? After Berman's decision, right before the opener, two at the same time? Some of this stuff is 8 years plus old.
Fair enough on Point A. But I still have a VERY hard time believing ESPN just decided to throw together a 50-source, 11,000 word story over Labor Day weekend. That's just not how this stuff works. I think they had it planned for the NFL opener, which features the Patriots fresh off what most of the country, rightly or wrongly, considers a cheating scandal.
 

CaptainLaddie

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canderson said:
This might be a bridge too far for the NFL/ESPN. Kraft won't be happy about this and I imagine he's already been on the phone with ol' Rog already.
 
You can poke a bear long enough, eventually it'll be the final time. 
 
This is how ESPN plays though. They did this same shit during the Penn State/Paterno saga. 
 

Well, except Paterno enabled the rape of many children.  That was a thing that happened.
 

plucy

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The level of innuendo utilized to "prove" the allegations in the ESPN piece makes it read like an extended urban legend. You don't think that the Pats would send additional defenders to help McGinest if Faulk tried to get him in space near the goal line? Oh no must have stolen the play. Martz was a "genius".
 

nighthob

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Average Reds said:
It's evidence that (8 years later) Martz thinks the document was edited. 
 
 
Most likely true, but it puts the NFL office in a squeamish position if people begin asking questions. 
 

AB in DC

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So far the Martz-statement thing seems to be getting the most traction in the non-ESPNFL media.  Let's see if that gets anywhere, because if Martz is right, that could be a huge egg on the NFL's face.
 

kartvelo

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The Patriots are cheaters. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Brady actually touch the footballs during last year's AFCCG. I guess it's pretty serious.
 

dcmissle

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Ed Hillel said:
They don't, the NFL coordinates with them separately. Seriously, you think the timing of everything is mere chance? After Berman's decision, right before the opener, two at the same time? Some of this stuff is 8 years plus old.
This was intended as a spike after what they assumed would be a favorable Berman opinion. Now it's sour grapes.
 

joe dokes

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Martz was a "genius".
 
 
His record after 2001 proves it!  As does the number of teams that hired him to be a head coach after the Rams turfed him after 5 games in '05.
 

Captaincoop

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kartvelo said:
The Patriots are cheaters. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Brady actually touch the footballs during last year's AFCCG. I guess it's pretty serious.
Well done.
 

doc

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
If the Pats cheated, what kind of chicanery did the Giants pull to beat them?  Twice!
They rushed Brady up the middle, so I think we should complain to the league and get that play banned, also catching balls with you helmet is obviously deceptive.
 

lexrageorge

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AB in DC said:
So far the Martz-statement thing seems to be getting the most traction in the non-ESPNFL media.  Let's see if that gets anywhere, because if Martz is right, that could be a huge egg on the NFL's face.
Mike Martz has always been in a bit of an awkward position.  He was an admirer of Belichick back in the day, in particular after the Rams beat the Pats during the 2001 regular season.  By the time Spygate broke, Martz had been in the assistant ranks for a couple of years, which meant he had a lot of good reasons to be quiet back then.  He was probably upset after the bogus "taped walkthrough" story broke, and so I can see his original statement being a bit less than a complete absolution of the NFL and Patriots of all their sins.  The statement got edited, but who really knows how substantive those edits really were.  The fact that Martz refused to give details says a lot, and also allows the ESPN report to continue the innuendo of cheating accusations.  I doubt very much that those edits impacted Senator Comcast's so-called investigation. 
 
Both the ESPN and SI pieces were hatchet jobs.  Both have reporters that hate Belichick.  Both have access to NFL sources that hate Belichick.  Both have connections with former coaches and GM's that hate Belichick.  And the simultaneous release is not an accident.  The recent Berman ruling only makes the stories juicier.  Unfortunately, things will only get worse when the local mediots (Volin, Shank, Borgie, and the gang) start piling on.  If ESPN and SI reported it, it must be true, says Volin.
 
Methinks it's time that Kraft and Kraft come up swinging and begin a media blitz of their own.  Really, they have nothing to lose at this point. 
 

Average Reds

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dcmissle said:
This was intended as a spike after what they assumed would be a favorable Berman opinion. Now it's sour grapes.
 
I think it was intended to be part of the ongoing effort to tar and feather the Pats, but I can't imagine they knew there would be a ruling this early.  Probably a distinction without a difference.  But yeah, it's clearly sour grapes now. 
 
Can't imagine how the NFL could think this was a good idea, but they don't seem to have a very astute PR touch these days...
 

ifmanis5

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No one is going to listen to Kraft or BB or the former coaches on the Spygate. It's up to the former players to speak up and put an end to this. They have the credibility and the inside dope. When Bruschi or Law or McGinest speak people will listen. Otherwise forget it. And even then it'll be a VERY tough sell.
 

ShaneTrot

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Maybe my memory is getting foggy but I seem to remember a story that when all the Spygate shit was coming down, one of the reasons that 'supposedly' Goodell didn't drag it out was BB had a lot of shit on other teams and possibly gave this evidence to Goodell. Am I remembering this correctly?
 

cshea

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ShaneTrot said:
Maybe my memory is getting foggy but I seem to remember a story that when all the Spygate shit was coming down, one of the reasons that 'supposedly' Goodell didn't drag it out was BB had a lot of shit on other teams and possibly gave this evidence to Goodell. Am I remembering this correctly?
Kind of. One of the rumors in the wake of Goodell destroying the SpyGate tapes was that he destroyed them because the tapes Bill brought him had the goods on every other team doing the same thing. Just a rumor though, no confirmation from anyone.
 

nighthob

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ShaneTrot said:
Maybe my memory is getting foggy but I seem to remember a story that when all the Spygate shit was coming down, one of the reasons that 'supposedly' Goodell didn't drag it out was BB had a lot of shit on other teams and possibly gave this evidence to Goodell. Am I remembering this correctly?
 
I'm sure there were posts here to that effect. Not so sure about the real world. I mean I'm sure that Belichick has heard stories about other coaches' shenanigans, but that's a separate matter.
 

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nighthob

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cshea said:
Kind of. One of the rumors in the wake of Goodell destroying the SpyGate tapes was that he destroyed them because Bill brought him the goods on every other team doing the same thing. Just a rumor though, no confirmation from anyone.
 
As that was the first year that the practice was illegal it probably wasn't too tough to prove that other teams openly taped from the sidelines when it was allowed.
 

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ifmanis5 said:
No one is going to listen to Kraft or BB or the former coaches on the Spygate. It's up to the former players to speak up and put an end to this. They have the credibility and the inside dope. When Bruschi or Law or McGinest speak people will listen. Otherwise forget it. And even then it'll be a VERY tough sell.
Ahh, were this to be true.  Those guys would be dismissed as Patriots homers who benefitted from the very cheating the Patriots undertook, of course they are circling the wagons.  
 

soxhop411

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bluefenderstrat said:
Sigh...
 
 
bing.com/news


 
and.... Time to avoid the ESPN/NFLN media for the next few months....
 

Rice14

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As a fan of another team, I don't really feel like dredging Spygate up again. However, after reading the article and the comments here, I do disagree with the idea that the NFL was somehow behind this article. Frankly, I think Godell comes out looking poorly (again), and I think that he has just about totally lost control. His end can't come soon enough.
 

riboflav

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Rice14 said:
As a fan of another team, I don't really feel like dredging Spygate up again. However, after reading the article and the comments here, I do disagree with the idea that the NFL was somehow behind this article. Frankly, I think Godell comes out looking poorly (again), and I think that he has just about totally lost control. His end can't come soon enough.
 
I agree. Goodell has lost control of the league office and now I'm conflicted about rooting for his ouster for his replacement may be worse.
 

ifmanis5

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One thing is true: NEP-Gate stories are ESPN's new ratings binky. Favre and Jetes have retired. Tiger, Tebow and Manziel have washed out to various degrees. All they have left is LeBron and the Pats.
 

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Youkilis vs Wild said:
Fair enough on Point A. But I still have a VERY hard time believing ESPN just decided to throw together a 50-source, 11,000 word story over Labor Day weekend. That's just not how this stuff works. I think they had it planned for the NFL opener, which features the Patriots fresh off what most of the country, rightly or wrongly, considers a cheating scandal.
 
You know that articles get killed all the time, right? Just because you have an 11,000-word story doesn't mean that the magazine or cable channel will run with it. 
 
If the Pats lost the Deflategate thing, there is no story today. If the Pats played ball with the NFL, there is no story today. I don't like to immerse myself in conspiracy theories, but people (mostly Mike Felger) have been saying that the NFL had an ace up its sleeve and that the Pats should be careful about fighting Deflategate too hard. Well, here's your ace, Kenny Rogers. 
 
So while the careful reader will deduce that this story really is more NFL incompetence, the NFL is betting that more people will see the headlines and scream "Durrrrr Cheatriots! Durrrr." and the NFL will win another news cycle (after getting its ass trounced in previous cycles). 

And, you have to give it to the NFL, they understand that the majority of their fans are complete, fucking morons.
 

OnWisc

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CantKeepmedown said:
The Pats have one Monday night game this year, on 11/23 vs Buffalo.  I really, really hope that (if they win), all the players and staff refuse to go up on the podium to talk to the ESPN talking heads, assuming that's still the protocol.  I know some guys like Dilfer have defended the Pats in the past, but I really hope the whole team just ignores pre/post game requests.
Brady just went out of his way to mention his respect for Goodell. If you expect any of the Patriots to publicly say or do anything material indicate displeasure with ESPN, you're probably going to be disappointed. I hope I'm wrong.
 

lexrageorge

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bluefenderstrat said:
Sigh...
 
 
bing.com/news


 
Like I said, it's time for Kraft and Kraft to come out swinging.  This is not the time to "play nice".  There is nothing more left to lose by staging a PR offensive.   Time for the "ESPN and SI reports in context" websites and let Volin once again bleat about the Kraft Foundation. 
 

Oil Can Dan

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kenneycb said:
This was my favorite. Ley was shocked that when the Eagles showed dime the Pats started running all over them. You know, because they were in dime and Corey Dillon was a monster that year. It's literally Football 101.
The poorly worded article stated that the Pats scored TDs on 3 out of 4 drives where the Eagles were apparently in dime D. Of those three TD drives the Pats had a total of 8 rushes for 33 yards, and 17 passes for 144 yards.
 
So on the bolded, not really.  The Pats passed twice as often and twice as effectively as they ran on those particular drives.
 

brandonchristensen

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Wow, this is insane how transparent it is...yet the masses are buying it.
 
Deflategate ended and things were fine for THREE DAYS. Now everyone, even a lot of Pats fan on social media, are trashing the team.
 
Well done, Roger. You win again!
 

Devizier

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It's not even frontpaged at Deadspin right now.
 
It's a troll job and people should stop getting worked up over it.
 

Stitch01

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"Stealing playbooks is new information we were not aware of at the time of the original punishment. As a result, we are suspending Bill Belichick for the entire 2015 season"

If you are going to go heel and try and right perceived past wrongs, should go full out.
 

Toe Nash

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Apart from everything else about the story being old news, the timing, etc...I'm sure this point was made 8 years ago but I wanted to get it off my chest.
 
In baseball teams use signals all the time. Some if not most teams / players try to steal them. It's a well-known thing. But the onus is on the teams to make their signals complicated enough and to change them up often enough so that other teams can't steal them! Like...if the "less sophisticated teams" like the Bills and Dolphins who play the Pats twice in quick succession can't change their signals in-between games that's their own damn fault.
 
Am I wrong that you would just need to develop new signals and get one dude on the defense (and sure, a backup or two if that guy gets hurt) to understand them? It's not like you have to re-teach the whole defensive playbook to the team. You just need your defensive captain, who is supposed to be a relatively sharp guy, to grasp that there are new signals. How hard is that?
 
The other thing that really bugs me is the home-field advantage stuff like serving warm Gatorade. THAT'S PART OF THE GAME! If the experience on the road was comfortable then it wouldn't be a home-field advantage, and when the Patriots go to Miami or Indy you and your fans get to play all the mean tricks on them right back. Belichick can't change the schedule -- he's only going to play 8 games at home in the regular season. And I'm fairly sure that the Patriots have the best record on the road as well, so...whatever
 

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brandonchristensen said:
Wow, this is insane how transparent it is...yet the masses are buying it.
 
Deflategate ended and things were fine for THREE DAYS. Now everyone, even a lot of Pats fan on social media, are trashing the team.
 
Well done, Roger. You win again!
 
You just can't worry about what the fools think anymore.  For every one of us with the ability to navigate the interwebs and post an opinion here, there is one person with "L" and "R" written on the bottom of his/her shoes.