Tatum got the bag(5 years, $195 million)

Sam Ray Not

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Oddly, Tatum's 50 yesterday came in a game that is considered neither a playoff game nor a regular season game.

Still, it is his 3rd 50+ game in 38 days. No Celtic had done that before.

Here are all of the Celtics 50+ games, regular season or... postseason.

1T. Larry Bird, 60, 3/12/1985
1T. Jayson Tatum, 60, 4/30/2021
3. Kevin McHale, 56, 3/3/1985
4. John Havlicek, 54, 4/1/1973 (playoffs)
5T. Bird, 53, 3/30/1983
5T. Isaiah Thomas, 53, 5/2/2017 (playoffs)
5T. Tatum, 53, 4/9/2021
8. Thomas, 52, 12/30/2016
9T. Sam Jones, 51, 10/29/1965
9T. Jones, 51, 3/28/1967 (playoffs)
9T. Ray Allen, 51, 4/30/2009 (playoffs)
12T. Bob Cousy, 3/21/1953 (playoffs)
12T. Bird, 50, 3/10/1986
12T. Bird, 50, 11/10/1989
12T. Paul Pierce, 50, 2/15/2006
12T. Tatum, 50, 5/18/2021 (play in game)

Only 2 Celtics have done it more than twice: Bird (4) and Tatum (3). Only 9 Celtics have scored 50+ more than once. And IT is the only other guy to do it twice in one season before Tatum. Sam Jones is the youngest Celtic to go for 50, but Tatum is the youngest to do it more than once.
Only three contributions to that list in the 30+ year period from the Bird era till now (IT x 2, Pierce). And now three contributions in the past five weeks by Tatum.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Seeing his work ethic, his season to season improvement, and his playoff resume (at such a young age), I have 100% faith in Tatum ascending to the top of the league in the next few seasons.
Agree with your post and agree with this but the big question is - will JT be a top-5 player? Top-3? MVP?

That's what I'm eager to see.
 
Feb 26, 2002
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He’s gotten some heat locally and nationally this season, but the Tatum consternation is lacking some perspective. JT is the purest scorer the Celtics have had since Bird (and Bird was picking up trash and playing for free in a shitty conference at age 20-22).
I watch the Celtics and Tatum almost every night (maybe I missed 5 games this season)....I like him a lot and truly believe that he is a piece to build-around. However, there are some issues and in quick bulleted-form:

1. inconsistency
2. habitually slow-starts to many games
3. inability to affect the game in other ways when his shooting / scoring is not helping the team

For # 1 - I'm willing to somewhat attribute this to his age and his bout with Covid this season....but Tatum (if this team is going to be a Finals contender going forward) has to be the rock that this team can count on every game, every quarter, every possession.

For # 2 - He is really creating a challenge for the coaching staff here - as time management and rotations on the personnel are already determined based on the match-up with that day's competition; being a 'no-show' for the first 12 or 24 minutes of the game causes an alternate-reliance on other individuals for production that could / should originate more consistently from JT. Some of the wild comebacks this season can be attributed - in part - to Tatum's slow starts.

For # 3 -

His defense is pedestrian at best...his effort really has to improve in this area.

His ability to drive and kick (as opposed to settling for fall-away shots) especially when drawing the double-team was something that should have been displayed all season, not just in the final two months of the season.

His dribbling skills need to greatly improve. Too often he loses his handle and causes the offensive-set / possession to hiccup.

---

Don't get me wrong - he's a wonderful young player. A fantastic scorer and unstoppable when he drives to the basket. I don't want to come-off sounding like I'm one of the 98.5 nitwits that wants to trade him away for Kevin Love and draft picks. However, let's be honest - there are current weaknesses in this young man's game that would prohibit him from being an elite "all around" NBA player. And if they aren't improved upon, he would be the next coming of Carmelo Anthony - a one-dimensional player / scorer that never had a complete 'positive-effect' on a franchise.
 

lovegtm

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Apr 30, 2013
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I watch the Celtics and Tatum almost every night (maybe I missed 5 games this season)....I like him a lot and truly believe that he is a piece to build-around. However, there are some issues and in quick bulleted-form:

1. inconsistency
2. habitually slow-starts to many games
3. inability to affect the game in other ways when his shooting / scoring is not helping the team

For # 1 - I'm willing to somewhat attribute this to his age and his bout with Covid this season....but Tatum (if this team is going to be a Finals contender going forward) has to be the rock that this team can count on every game, every quarter, every possession.

For # 2 - He is really creating a challenge for the coaching staff here - as time management and rotations on the personnel are already determined based on the match-up with that day's competition; being a 'no-show' for the first 12 or 24 minutes of the game causes an alternate-reliance on other individuals for production that could / should originate more consistently from JT. Some of the wild comebacks this season can be attributed - in part - to Tatum's slow starts.

For # 3 -

His defense is pedestrian at best...his effort really has to improve in this area.

His ability to drive and kick (as opposed to settling for fall-away shots) especially when drawing the double-team was something that should have been displayed all season, not just in the final two months of the season.

His dribbling skills need to greatly improve. Too often he loses his handle and causes the offensive-set / possession to hiccup.

---

Don't get me wrong - he's a wonderful young player. A fantastic scorer and unstoppable when he drives to the basket. I don't want to come-off sounding like I'm one of the 98.5 nitwits that wants to trade him away for Kevin Love and draft picks. However, let's be honest - there are current weaknesses in this young man's game that would prohibit him from being an elite "all around" NBA player. And if they aren't improved upon, he would be the next coming of Carmelo Anthony - a one-dimensional player / scorer that never had a complete 'positive-effect' on a franchise.
"defense is pedestrian at best?"

He had a down year this year on that end, but last year was elite at 21.

If you're comparing him to Carmelo, I don't think you know basketball at all.
 

CreightonGubanich

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Yeah, Jayson Tatum has been an elite, scheme-making defensive player already in his career. By which I mean he's shown the ability to switch at least 1-4, guard elite offensive wings, and provide a reasonable facsimile of weakside rim protection. You can build a whole defense around that guy. He didn't do it this year. I don't know why; it was a weird year, and I'm not prepared to say he's no longer a good defender. He had to carry (or thought he had to carry) a tremendous offensive load through much of this year, with Kemba out of the lineup and injuries to other guys. In the middle, he battled COVID and starting taking an inhaler before games. How much of that affected his ability to go max effort on the defensive end, I'm not sure, but I don't really think it's fair to just label it a lack of effort.

What separates Tatum from Peak Paul Pierce right now is two things, IMO: Playmaking ability and the ability to get to the free throw line at will. I loved that he shot 17 free throws last night, but he still needs to get better here. When Pierce's shot wasn't falling, he could make plays for other guys and still get his points efficiently at the line. That's what Tatum needs: the ability to get 25 points without knocking down 10 jump shots. Seeing as how he's strategically added something to his offensive game every season, it's reasonable to think he'll get there.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Worth noting that we are in the load management era of the NBA and Tatum really was never load managed this year. And he had Covid this year, which took a toll on him long after he recovered. And Tatum is a young 23 - taking issue with his maturity by comparing him to older and more experienced vets isn’t reasonable. And Carmelo, great scorer that he was, has only 4 50+ games (high of 62) in the regular season in a long career. (Not sure whether he has done in the playoffs). Tatum has just dropped 3 such performances in 38 days.

And in each of these Tatum games, the Celtics basically needed him to go off to win. Bird dropped his 60 in a blowout that the Celtics would have won if he’d missed a half.
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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It’s totally unrealistic to expect any player to be on his game all the time, without having any off nights. Even the very best players the league has ever seen has had, even in huge games, had poor performances. Yes even LeBron and Jordan. Even Magic and Bird. It happens to everyone. It’s just not fair to expect Tatum to be elite every single playoff game, or to claim that if he isn’t ON every single game that he’s not elite.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
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I watch the Celtics and Tatum almost every night (maybe I missed 5 games this season)....I like him a lot and truly believe that he is a piece to build-around. However, there are some issues and in quick bulleted-form:

1. inconsistency
2. habitually slow-starts to many games
3. inability to affect the game in other ways when his shooting / scoring is not helping the team

For # 1 - I'm willing to somewhat attribute this to his age and his bout with Covid this season....but Tatum (if this team is going to be a Finals contender going forward) has to be the rock that this team can count on every game, every quarter, every possession.

For # 2 - He is really creating a challenge for the coaching staff here - as time management and rotations on the personnel are already determined based on the match-up with that day's competition; being a 'no-show' for the first 12 or 24 minutes of the game causes an alternate-reliance on other individuals for production that could / should originate more consistently from JT. Some of the wild comebacks this season can be attributed - in part - to Tatum's slow starts.

For # 3 -

His defense is pedestrian at best...his effort really has to improve in this area.

His ability to drive and kick (as opposed to settling for fall-away shots) especially when drawing the double-team was something that should have been displayed all season, not just in the final two months of the season.

His dribbling skills need to greatly improve. Too often he loses his handle and causes the offensive-set / possession to hiccup.

---

Don't get me wrong - he's a wonderful young player. A fantastic scorer and unstoppable when he drives to the basket. I don't want to come-off sounding like I'm one of the 98.5 nitwits that wants to trade him away for Kevin Love and draft picks. However, let's be honest - there are current weaknesses in this young man's game that would prohibit him from being an elite "all around" NBA player. And if they aren't improved upon, he would be the next coming of Carmelo Anthony - a one-dimensional player / scorer that never had a complete 'positive-effect' on a franchise.
I think the above are fair points, except for the Carmelo Anthony comparisons (but I feel Carmelo is one of the most overrated players in recent memory, so YMMV).

I will die on the "His CoVid-19 recovery affected Tatum for a significant portion of this truncated season" hill. The second hill I will die on is that the roster and constant injury churn did not do him any favors this season.

I do feel these weaknesses are all fixable issues; the development curve for younger players in the NBA is not always linear. The pressure will also be on the coaching staff to bring out the best in Tatum next season. It's also time for the obligatory reminder that a lot of the limitations in Paul Pierce's game became less noticeable once KG and Ray Allen joined the team. Teammates matter.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Only three contributions to that list in the 30+ year period from the Bird era till now (IT x 2, Pierce). And now three contributions in the past five weeks by Tatum.
I can only imagine how many points Larry would have scored under today's rules. He also would have lasted a few more years not having to be pounded by Rodman (et al.).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I watch the Celtics and Tatum almost every night (maybe I missed 5 games this season)....I like him a lot and truly believe that he is a piece to build-around. However, there are some issues and in quick bulleted-form:

1. inconsistency
2. habitually slow-starts to many games
3. inability to affect the game in other ways when his shooting / scoring is not helping the team

For # 1 - I'm willing to somewhat attribute this to his age and his bout with Covid this season....but Tatum (if this team is going to be a Finals contender going forward) has to be the rock that this team can count on every game, every quarter, every possession.

For # 2 - He is really creating a challenge for the coaching staff here - as time management and rotations on the personnel are already determined based on the match-up with that day's competition; being a 'no-show' for the first 12 or 24 minutes of the game causes an alternate-reliance on other individuals for production that could / should originate more consistently from JT. Some of the wild comebacks this season can be attributed - in part - to Tatum's slow starts.

For # 3 -

His defense is pedestrian at best...his effort really has to improve in this area.

His ability to drive and kick (as opposed to settling for fall-away shots) especially when drawing the double-team was something that should have been displayed all season, not just in the final two months of the season.

His dribbling skills need to greatly improve. Too often he loses his handle and causes the offensive-set / possession to hiccup.

---

Don't get me wrong - he's a wonderful young player. A fantastic scorer and unstoppable when he drives to the basket. I don't want to come-off sounding like I'm one of the 98.5 nitwits that wants to trade him away for Kevin Love and draft picks. However, let's be honest - there are current weaknesses in this young man's game that would prohibit him from being an elite "all around" NBA player. And if they aren't improved upon, he would be the next coming of Carmelo Anthony - a one-dimensional player / scorer that never had a complete 'positive-effect' on a franchise.
First of all, he's 23.

Second of all, from a high level, it's pretty difficult for the lead scorer on a team to also be the best defender just because how much energy it takes to score in the NBA. With regards to JT specifically, note that he guarded Beal last night and has guarded opponents' best non-PG scorers like Kawhi and Harris and the like.

I mean JT's defense may not always be there, but he's certainly no Devin Booker or Trae Young. Or even Tobias Harris.
 

Fishy1

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Nov 10, 2006
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Yeah, he's an already elite scorer who I suspect will only get bigger and tougher. He can guard anybody, he can score over anybody. He can hit stepbacks from all over the court, handle the pick and roll competently, and is an absolutely elite wing defender when needed.

An underrated issue for him is his handle. He's got a lot of moves, but he still dribbles too high a lot of the time and leaves himself vulnerable to pickpockets. He's late swinging the ball on double teams sometimes, but he's only going to get better at that since other teams are desperately and constantly throwing doubles at him even in regular season games.

His handle is already very good, but once he makes it elite, he's going to be even more unstoppable than he already is.

With him and Brown hopefully continuing to improve, and finally a healthy roster, this team will win 50+ next year without many roster changes. And it'll mostly be because of Tatum.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If Tatum doesn’t improve he’ll only be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer? So good to have a bar that high at age 23.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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If Tatum doesn’t improve he’ll only be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer? So good to have a bar that high at age 23.
I wish basketball-reference did what baseball-reference does, and have player comps listed at each stage of a player's career. Because I'd love to know who they have as, say, the top 5 comps to Tatum at age 21-22. Because here's what he's done during his age 21 and age 22 seasons (as b-ref has it...the age must be determined by the age they are when the season starts):

2018-19 (age 21): 23.4 points, 7.0 rebounds, 3.0 assists, 1.4 steals, 52.7% eFG
2019-20 (age 22): 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 53.0% eFG

I can't imagine there are tooooooo many guys in the league who have done this at those ages.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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If Tatum doesn’t improve he’ll only be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer? So good to have a bar that high at age 23.
If Tatum averages 25 ppg for the next 10 years and remains a top 10-15-ish player during that time - which basically means that he doesn't get markedly better than he is right now), isn't that a first ballot HOFer?

He's scored 5594 points in his career so 10 more seasons at 25 ppg would give him north of 26,000, which would put him (currently) 18th. That would mean his career was basically Vince Carter or Dominique. I think first ballot HOF isn't pretty likely.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I wish basketball-reference did what baseball-reference does, and have player comps listed at each stage of a player's career. Because I'd love to know who they have as, say, the top 5 comps to Tatum at age 21-22. Because here's what he's done during his age 21 and age 22 seasons (as b-ref has it...the age must be determined by the age they are when the season starts):

2018-19 (age 21): 23.4 points, 7.0 rebounds, 3.0 assists, 1.4 steals, 52.7% eFG
2019-20 (age 22): 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 53.0% eFG

I can't imagine there are tooooooo many guys in the league who have done this at those ages.
If you subscribe to Stathead, you can find this information. I don't know if NBA.com will let you run this kind of search.

Looks like there are 20 players that, at age 21, had seasons with Assists >= 2.5 and Points >= 23 and Total Rebounds >= 6.5 and Effective Field Goal Pct >= 0.520 but the limited search tool on BRef won't give entire list.

Luka is on it though.
 

DJnVa

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Dec 16, 2010
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I watch the Celtics and Tatum almost every night (maybe I missed 5 games this season)....I like him a lot and truly believe that he is a piece to build-around. However, there are some issues and in quick bulleted-form:

1. inconsistency

For # 1 - I'm willing to somewhat attribute this to his age and his bout with Covid this season....but Tatum (if this team is going to be a Finals contender going forward) has to be the rock that this team can count on every game, every quarter, every possession.
Can you define this more? Does he have more quarters with 0 points than other big players? More halves with less than 5 points?



2. habitually slow-starts to many games

For # 2 - He is really creating a challenge for the coaching staff here - as time management and rotations on the personnel are already determined based on the match-up with that day's competition; being a 'no-show' for the first 12 or 24 minutes of the game causes an alternate-reliance on other individuals for production that could / should originate more consistently from JT. Some of the wild comebacks this season can be attributed - in part - to Tatum's slow starts.
Again, what are his actual numbers here? I'm looking but I can't find scoring by half anywhere yet.

EDIT: Found it.

Tatum, by quarter, ranks 47th, 8th, 16th, 1st, in scoring. However, Harden is 39th in 1st quarter scoring. KD is 38th. Trae Young is 27th.

Are they all no-shows?
 
Last edited:

Sam Ray Not

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Melo’s career true shooting % is a sub-mediocre .542. Baby Tatum is at .569, and likely to improve a ton as he hits his early prime.

And that’s without mentioning defense, which is half the game for a forward. I haven’t checked the adjusted plus-minus numbers recently, but IIRC, Melo rated as a top ten player in terms of impact on wins maybe once or twice over his career, and was more typically in the 20s or below. I’d expect JT to crush that. Wayyy closer to KD or Kawhi than to Melo, imho.
 

Dduncan6er

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Apr 16, 2020
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Can you define this more? Does he have more quarters with 0 points than other big players? More halves with less than 5 points?





Again, what are his actual numbers here? I'm looking but I can't find scoring by half anywhere yet.

EDIT: Found it.

Tatum, by quarter, ranks 47th, 8th, 16th, 1st, in scoring. However, Harden is 39th in 1st quarter scoring. KD is 38th. Trae Young is 27th.

Are they all no-shows?
I think the first quarter scoring for most of these guys has to do more with the teams' rotations than anything else. Tatum usually checks out 5-6 minutes into the first and comes back with a minute or 2 left. So let's say he's at about 7-8 minutes in the first. He then plays most of the 2nd. So it makes sense that he'd be low on 1st quarter scoring and high on the 2nd quarter list. Likewise with those other guys as I believe they are on similar rotations to Tatum.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I wish basketball-reference did what baseball-reference does, and have player comps listed at each stage of a player's career. Because I'd love to know who they have as, say, the top 5 comps to Tatum at age 21-22. Because here's what he's done during his age 21 and age 22 seasons (as b-ref has it...the age must be determined by the age they are when the season starts):

2018-19 (age 21): 23.4 points, 7.0 rebounds, 3.0 assists, 1.4 steals, 52.7% eFG
2019-20 (age 22): 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 53.0% eFG

I can't imagine there are tooooooo many guys in the league who have done this at those ages.
He truly is under appreciated around here. I feel Jaylen is also. Take the two of them off the team and this is the ‘72 Sixers.
 

TripleOT

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Lots of good stuff here. I can put the pom poms down for a minute to list the parts of Tatum’s game I don’t like.

1) I despise when he high dribble takes the ball up the court. I’ll bet they are unsuccessful at scoring 60+ percent of the time when he brings it up.

2) He doesn’t protect the ball when dribbling the ball against resistance in the front court when he’s not straight line driving to the hoop. Turning your back to defenders while spinning in the middle of the court with a high dribble is a pick-6 turnover waiting to happen.

3) He doesn’t seem to want to heat up to start a game, instead deferring to Kemba or JT. I’d like to see the Celtics start out every game being exploitative with Tatum, either on the mid post against smaller covers, or putting bigs in foul trouble off the pick and roll game

4) I’d like to see lock down defense to start the game. He’s being pulled at the six minute mark. I’d like all his tools implemented from the jump, so the other team doesn’t get going in the first, especially with lesser opponents.

Comparing Pierce to JT, Pierce didn't surpass the four assists per game mark until his fifth season, at age 25. Tatum did this year, his fourth, age 22 season, and increased his apg by at least 40% every season. He should be a 6 apg guy very soon, especially if they can get better shooting around him.
 

lovegtm

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Lots of good stuff here. I can put the pom poms down for a minute to list the parts of Tatum’s game I don’t like.

1) I despise when he high dribble takes the ball up the court. I’ll bet they are unsuccessful at scoring 60+ percent of the time when he brings it up.

2) He doesn’t protect the ball when dribbling the ball against resistance in the front court when he’s not straight line driving to the hoop. Turning your back to defenders while spinning in the middle of the court with a high dribble is a pick-6 turnover waiting to happen.

3) He doesn’t seem to want to heat up to start a game, instead deferring to Kemba or JT. I’d like to see the Celtics start out every game being exploitative with Tatum, either on the mid post against smaller covers, or putting bigs in foul trouble off the pick and roll game

4) I’d like to see lock down defense to start the game. He’s being pulled at the six minute mark. I’d like all his tools implemented from the jump, so the other team doesn’t get going in the first, especially with lesser opponents.

Comparing Pierce to JT, Pierce didn't surpass the four assists per game mark until his fifth season, at age 25. Tatum did this year, his fourth, age 22 season, and increased his apg by at least 40% every season. He should be a 6 apg guy very soon, especially if they can get better shooting around him.
To your last point, it's worth noting how big a deal 6 APG is for forwards who aren't LeBron/Luka primary ballhandlers. A lot of PG assists are kind of fake and just come from being the guy who starts with the ball.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Tatum's age-22 season (this year) is roughly comparable to Kobe's age-22 season:

Tatum (2020-21): 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 53.0% eFG
Kobe (2000-01): 28.5 points, 5.9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.7 steals, 48.4% eFG

On the one hand, yes, scoring has increased since 2001, but on the other hand Tatum was on a significantly worse team and had to deal with Covid. More to the point, Tatum's stats this year are roughly comparable with Kobe's career rate-stats, so if Tatum can keep this up for another 15 years (I get it, that's a huge "if") he is almost certainly a first-ballot Hall of Famer and quite possibly in the discussion as a top-25 player all-time. We have a ways to go before we get there but Tatum is absolutely on pace to do that.
 
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Lots of good stuff here. I can put the pom poms down for a minute to list the parts of Tatum’s game I don’t like.

1) I despise when he high dribble takes the ball up the court. I’ll bet they are unsuccessful at scoring 60+ percent of the time when he brings it up.

2) He doesn’t protect the ball when dribbling the ball against resistance in the front court when he’s not straight line driving to the hoop. Turning your back to defenders while spinning in the middle of the court with a high dribble is a pick-6 turnover waiting to happen.

3) He doesn’t seem to want to heat up to start a game, instead deferring to Kemba or JT. I’d like to see the Celtics start out every game being exploitative with Tatum, either on the mid post against smaller covers, or putting bigs in foul trouble off the pick and roll game

4) I’d like to see lock down defense to start the game. He’s being pulled at the six minute mark. I’d like all his tools implemented from the jump, so the other team doesn’t get going in the first, especially with lesser opponents.

Comparing Pierce to JT, Pierce didn't surpass the four assists per game mark until his fifth season, at age 25. Tatum did this year, his fourth, age 22 season, and increased his apg by at least 40% every season. He should be a 6 apg guy very soon, especially if they can get better shooting around him.
All fair.

And again - I don't mean to come across as 'shitting' on Tatum. He's a wonderful player (especially on the offensive end) who will only get better with maturity and additional talent surrounding him...but the 'catapult' to elite-player will come after some of these obvious flaws are lessened / eradicated.
 
Feb 26, 2002
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Citifield - Queens, NY
Tatum, by quarter, ranks 47th, 8th, 16th, 1st, in scoring. However, Harden is 39th in 1st quarter scoring. KD is 38th. Trae Young is 27th.

Are they all no-shows?
Unfortunately for Tatum - he doesn't have the roster-support that Harden & KD have. So a 'no-show' in the early portions of the game is not as consequential for a Nets player.

As for Trae Young...he's a one-dimensional player (who barely participates defensively) on a mid-level playoff seed. That's not the type of player Tatum aspires to be.
 

lovegtm

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Unfortunately for Tatum - he doesn't have the roster-support that Harden & KD have. So a 'no-show' in the early portions of the game is not as consequential for a Nets player.

As for Trae Young...he's a one-dimensional player (who barely participates defensively) on a mid-level playoff seed. That's not the type of player Tatum aspires to be.
It's also not the type of player Tatum is. He was literally one of the best defenders in the league a year ago, and then got COVID. The fact that you don't seem to be aware of this is shocking.
 

Euclis20

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2) He doesn’t protect the ball when dribbling the ball against resistance in the front court when he’s not straight line driving to the hoop. Turning your back to defenders while spinning in the middle of the court with a high dribble is a pick-6 turnover waiting to happen.
I've seen this mentioned a couple times (and I feel the exact same way watching him), but is it actually a problem? For a high volume scorer he turns the ball over relatively rarely (one of the low key awesome parts of his 60 point game was that he had 0 turnovers). Of the players who averaged 25+ ppg this year (15 total), only Kyrie averaged fewer TOs/game. 45 players had a usage rate of 25% or higher - of that group Tatum had both the 13th highest usage rate and the 13th best turnover percentage. Nobody with a higher usage rate had a better turnover percentage than Tatum. Maybe his turnovers are more likely to lead to easy points than others, but statistically I can't see him having a turnover problem of any kind.
 

OurF'ingCity

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All fair.

And again - I don't mean to come across as 'shitting' on Tatum. He's a wonderful player (especially on the offensive end) who will only get better with maturity and additional talent surrounding him...but the 'catapult' to elite-player will come after some of these obvious flaws are lessened / eradicated.
I get what you are saying but Tatum started the All-Star game this year (as an injury replacement, but still) and has a pretty decent shot at being an All-Pro (some projections even have him making the second team), meaning he's a top-15 player in the NBA. He's already elite. The question is whether he can become an MVP contender/consistent first-team All-Pro.
 

RorschachsMask

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For # 3 -

His defense is pedestrian at best...his effort really has to improve in this area.

His ability to drive and kick (as opposed to settling for fall-away shots) especially when drawing the double-team was something that should have been displayed all season, not just in the final two months of the season.
Tatum was probably one of the 10 best defensive players in the league last season, by pretty much any metric. This season he was meh, which covid played a part in. But....almost the entire league was meh defensively this season. This entire team fell off a cliff defensively this year, everyone sucked on defense. I bet it corrects some next year, and you’ll see much better defense across the league.

How he defended last night is pretty much how he defended every game last season,
at an elite level. He was a MONSTER team defender, which is what NBA defenses are all about now.

Also as far as not being a playmaker, Tatum was in the 91st percentile for assist rate amongst forwards. He’s WAY ahead of the curve as a playmaker, in comparison to other elite wings.

Assist rate in their 4th season.

Durant 13.2%
Kawhi 13%
Paul George 17.9%
Pierce 15.7%
Tatum 20.3%

Of course there’s things he needs to work on, but he’s already a top 15 player at worst, and continues to clean up his weaknesses at a crazy rate.
 
Last edited:
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It's also not the type of player Tatum is. He was literally one of the best defenders in the league a year ago, and then got COVID. The fact that you don't seem to be aware of this is shocking.
Fair enough...

I'm well aware that this entire "team" (!!!) was better defensively...injuries, bouts with COVID, and load-management approaches all may have been contributing factors for "both" Tatum and the collective Celtics defensive performance.
 

radsoxfan

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There is no way to really quantify how much COVID affected his year, but I'm sure it had at least some impact. It makes sense to me defense would be affected more than offense, as that is more effort and energy based.

He is 23, has been an above average defender until this year, and has the physical skills to be very good on that end.

I feel very comfortable assuming he will be at least above average defensively going forward, with the potential to be even better than that. Unless he has another below average defensive season next year, I don't think people should worry too much about his D.
 

Strike4

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I'm hoping that Fournier sticks around - he's the kind of player that can alleviate some of the personnel issues limiting Tatum. Fournier is a spot-up shooter (in theory) and so far he's show great flashes of playmaking.
 

Kliq

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I wish basketball-reference did what baseball-reference does, and have player comps listed at each stage of a player's career. Because I'd love to know who they have as, say, the top 5 comps to Tatum at age 21-22. Because here's what he's done during his age 21 and age 22 seasons (as b-ref has it...the age must be determined by the age they are when the season starts):

2018-19 (age 21): 23.4 points, 7.0 rebounds, 3.0 assists, 1.4 steals, 52.7% eFG
2019-20 (age 22): 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 53.0% eFG

I can't imagine there are tooooooo many guys in the league who have done this at those ages.
Basketball reference does have a similarity score based on Win Shares through their first three seasons. Tatum's most similar comps are:

Billy Cunningham
Danny Granger
James Worthy
Clark Kellogg
Xavier McDaniel
Kelly Tripucka
Kevin McHale
Dominique Wilkins
George Yardley
Tommy Heinsohn

So a lot of Hall of Famers, along with a few guys that didn't make it for various reasons. He isn't quite on the LeBron/Jordan/Bird kind of trajectory, but if you factor in his age during his first three seasons compared to people like McHale and Wilkins, it's damn impressive.
 

benhogan

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Agree with your post and agree with this but the big question is - will JT be a top-5 player? Top-3? MVP?

That's what I'm eager to see.
yes, yes, yes within 2-3 seasons

JT's greatest ascendency will be when he gains 10 more pounds of upper body muscle. He'll be a foul drawing machine when he can throw himself into the chests of BIGs and draw &1s. When he starts drawing fouls like last night he could easily average 32pts/gm

The key to being an MVP is surrounding him with the right players. @TripleOT had a good to-do list for Danny. I'll just add a BIG that can hit 3s at a high rate would be a nice yin to TimeLords yang helping spread the floor. No more lane cloggers/non-passers like TT. Also, Nesmith and Romeo's on-ball defensive development (to guard top wings) will be important to Tatum defensively (where he thrives as a free safety/passing lane disruptor).

This team is a lot closer to greatness than the run-of-the-mill .500 team.

I think the question should be “How do I build around Tatum and Jaylen Brown?”

1) Big PG who can make threes. Tatum and Brown can guard 1-4, and even body some 5s on switches. Having a big PG allows total switchability. It also makes it easier to enter the ball on post ups.

2) An athletic rim protector/rim runner who can help offensive flow, which they have in Robert Williams

3) Wing players comfortable with being complementary pieces, who can spot up from three and slash against closeouts (Fournier? Nesmith?) One should ideally be a tough guy.
 

Devizier

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2019-20 (age 22): 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 53.0% eFG
Obviously you need some era adjustments (significant ones when dealing with the early 00's) but:

Bryant (00-01, age 22): 28.5 points, 5.9 rebounds, 5.0 assists, 1.7 steals, 48.4% eFG
Durant (10-11, age 22): 27.7 points, 6.8 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1.1 steals, 50.9% eFG
McGrady (01-02, age 22): 25.6 points, 7.9 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 1.6 steals, 48.3% eFG

One obvious adjustment is to look at eFG+

Tatum 99
Bryant 102
Durant 102
McGrady 101

The big difference, offensively, is FTA. Tatum has been significantly behind those guys, although he's made huge improvements in that area. I don't think he'll ever be the attacker that Bryant or McGrady was. Hopefully he'll have much better injury luck than McGrady, who started falling apart just a few years later.
 

Auger34

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Apr 23, 2010
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I think Tatum has a few issues and I think almost
all of them will get better with experience.

Last night was about peak Tatum. They mentioned on the broadcast that Brad was stressing to JT that he needed to be more of a distributor/facilitator. He did a very good job of this last night, the ball never seemed to stick to him.
Personally, I think this is his biggest issue. Not because he doesn’t have the skills to do it, he clearly does. I just worry about the “Mamba Mentality” that seeps through some games where he falls in love with pounding the ball and taking contested shots.

The other issues that I see are that he seems to be disengaged during some games. Jackie Mac was on Simmons podcast recently and mentioned that this was something in other teams scouting reports. That if you body him up and cause him to miss some shots early that he could slump his shoulders and not be fully engaged. I fully expect him to get better at this as he gains more experience.
I’d also like to see him continue to get to the rim more and not settle for his mid range jumper. That’s a shot he can get at anytime and it always feels like a win for the defense when he takes it early in the shot clock. He and Hanlon have worked on shot profile in previous off seasons so I also expect this to get better in upcoming seasons. Gaining strength will also help a lot
 

RetractableRoof

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I can only imagine how many points Larry would have scored under today's rules. He also would have lasted a few more years not having to be pounded by Rodman (et al.).
When you figure out how to make this happen, please leave him a note asking him to pay someone else to do work around the property... landscaper/contractor, etc.
 

slamminsammya

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He wastes a lot of possessions on low efficiency shots with the added pain that they are usually situations where anyone watching can tell he isn't going to pass. This sounds like a criticism and it is but I think about it a lot in the context of how much upside he still has when he cleans those up. He is going to be in the tippity top tier of players.
 

Imbricus

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He wastes a lot of possessions on low efficiency shots with the added pain that they are usually situations where anyone watching can tell he isn't going to pass. This sounds like a criticism and it is but I think about it a lot in the context of how much upside he still has when he cleans those up. He is going to be in the tippity top tier of players.
This is so true. Basically, his failure (or slowness) to distribute -- to pass out of jams and double-teams and good defense -- makes offense that much harder for him because opposing teams can just play him tight and wait for his difficult/impossible shot. Once he learns to whip the ball around (after all, in a lot of cases, he'll get it back), his own offense will improve and so will the team's.
 

BringBackMo

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He wastes a lot of possessions on low efficiency shots with the added pain that they are usually situations where anyone watching can tell he isn't going to pass. This sounds like a criticism and it is but I think about it a lot in the context of how much upside he still has when he cleans those up. He is going to be in the tippity top tier of players.
There’s something to this. But another way of thinking about it is that the Celtics waste a lot of games by surrounding one of the league’s very best players with a roster of inexperienced, inconsistent, not-particularly-good, and/or injury-prone teammates. There’s been plenty of analysis that Tatum has emerging playmaking skills, and no one believes that he is a selfish player more interested in getting his shots than winning as a team. Others may disagree with him but it seems clear to me that he believes that those low-efficiency shots give his team a better chance to win in certain lineups than does passing to teammates in whom he appears to lack confidence. Ainge will or will not decide to reconfigure the roster in the offseason. If he does, and is able to bring in a more competent and better-fitting supporting cast, my prediction is that we’ll very suddenly hear a lot less about Jayson Tatum’s shot selection and ball movement.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There’s something to this. But another way of thinking about it is that the Celtics waste a lot of games by surrounding one of the league’s very best players with a roster of inexperienced, inconsistent, not-particularly-good, and/or injury-prone teammates. There’s been plenty of analysis that Tatum has emerging playmaking skills, and no one believes that he is a selfish player more interested in getting his shots than winning as a team. Others may disagree with him but it seems clear to me that he believes that those low-efficiency shots give his team a better chance to win in certain lineups than does passing to teammates in whom he appears to lack confidence. Ainge will or will not decide to reconfigure the roster in the offseason. If he does, and is able to bring in a more competent and better-fitting supporting cast, my prediction is that we’ll very suddenly hear a lot less about Jayson Tatum’s shot selection and ball movement.
People keep clamoring for DA to stock the Cs with veterans. I have no idea what DA will do this summer (probably depends at least a little bit on what happens versus BRK) but one thing about trying to load up on vets - they are all going to be on short-term deals so DA will have to do this year after year and that's pretty hard to keep doing, particularly with increasingly limited salary cap room.
 

BringBackMo

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People keep clamoring for DA to stock the Cs with veterans. I have no idea what DA will do this summer (probably depends at least a little bit on what happens versus BRK) but one thing about trying to load up on vets - they are all going to be on short-term deals so DA will have to do this year after year and that's pretty hard to keep doing, particularly with increasingly limited salary cap room.
I agree that it’s easier said than done to build the right roster around Tatum and Jaylen (and TL?), but I think most of us here agree that it’s priority one for the franchise. To be clear, though, I’m not arguing that the team has to be loaded with proven veterans. Two, perhaps three, competent and experienced players would complement what’s already here quite nicely.
 

slamminsammya

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There’s something to this. But another way of thinking about it is that the Celtics waste a lot of games by surrounding one of the league’s very best players with a roster of inexperienced, inconsistent, not-particularly-good, and/or injury-prone teammates. There’s been plenty of analysis that Tatum has emerging playmaking skills, and no one believes that he is a selfish player more interested in getting his shots than winning as a team. Others may disagree with him but it seems clear to me that he believes that those low-efficiency shots give his team a better chance to win in certain lineups than does passing to teammates in whom he appears to lack confidence. Ainge will or will not decide to reconfigure the roster in the offseason. If he does, and is able to bring in a more competent and better-fitting supporting cast, my prediction is that we’ll very suddenly hear a lot less about Jayson Tatum’s shot selection and ball movement.
I dont know, he averaged like 0.8 points per attempt on a very high volume of fadeaways this year. I have a hard time believing that is more than what you get by trying almost anything else on offense.
 

lovegtm

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I dont know, he averaged like 0.8 points per attempt on a very high volume of fadeaways this year. I have a hard time believing that is more than what you get by trying almost anything else on offense.
Meh, this sort of static analysis ignores a few things:

1. Tatum has gotten good at using the threat of the fadeaway to go up and under or draw fouls
2. Guys cover him closely in the post, opening up passes
3. He needs to shoot fadeaways sometimes to keep them honest on that shot
4. He has improved at that shot, and if it gets to somewhere more like 0.9, that's suddenly very interesting in the half-court when you factor in the chance for fouls, passes, and fakes

The fact that Tatum would shoot a high % on fadeaways if they weren't contested opens up a lot of things for the rest of his game, because guys do have to contest those shots very hard.
 

slamminsammya

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Meh, this sort of static analysis ignores a few things:

1. Tatum has gotten good at using the threat of the fadeaway to go up and under or draw fouls
2. Guys cover him closely in the post, opening up passes
3. He needs to shoot fadeaways sometimes to keep them honest on that shot
4. He has improved at that shot, and if it gets to somewhere more like 0.9, that's suddenly very interesting in the half-court when you factor in the chance for fouls, passes, and fakes

The fact that Tatum would shoot a high % on fadeaways if they weren't contested opens up a lot of things for the rest of his game, because guys do have to contest those shots very hard.
I understand the concept that the threat of the counterfactual where the fadeaway is undefended > actual performance on the fadeaways. But I don't think defenses are worried about it. He shot a lot of them. He shot poorly on them. I am pretty sure defenses know this. My eye test also tells me a lot of these shots were not late clock need something situations, but pounding the ball, I am out of ideas / I want to be Kobe right now type of possessions. I could be wrong.

EDIT: The 0.8 per attempt number was off memory from I think Synergy. NBA.com has it even worse - 151 attempts on 31% shooting... The discrepancy may come if Synergy includes attempts that resulted in fouls but I am not sure. https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/shooting/
 

Jimbodandy

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People keep clamoring for DA to stock the Cs with veterans. I have no idea what DA will do this summer (probably depends at least a little bit on what happens versus BRK) but one thing about trying to load up on vets - they are all going to be on short-term deals so DA will have to do this year after year and that's pretty hard to keep doing, particularly with increasingly limited salary cap room.
That's where he has to earn his money now imo. It's not necessarily just NBA FAs, but guys that just aren't great fits where they are via trade maybe. Or the next Theis/Wanamaker, steady older guys with their heads on straight. We're just too damn inexperienced.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is so true. Basically, his failure (or slowness) to distribute -- to pass out of jams and double-teams and good defense -- makes offense that much harder for him because opposing teams can just play him tight and wait for his difficult/impossible shot. Once he learns to whip the ball around (after all, in a lot of cases, he'll get it back), his own offense will improve and so will the team's.
This sounds like the identical criticism that Kobe faced for much of his career. When you pass the ball inside 10 on the clock (halfcourt set generally is initiated with around 15-17 left) it isn’t likely you get it back and if you do you are under 5 on the clock with your options severely limited. I’m not sure why more don’t recognize how big an advantage this is to a defender knowing a multiple dribble penetration is now off the books. If you think Tatum isn’t efficient now wait until the clock is at 4 and he’s just receiving the ball possibly outside of his desired spot on the floor.
 

DJnVa

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EDIT: The 0.8 per attempt number was off memory from I think Synergy. NBA.com has it even worse - 151 attempts on 31% shooting... The discrepancy may come if Synergy includes attempts that resulted in fouls but I am not sure. https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/shooting/
Is 151 attempts "high volume"? It might be, but I don't know. It's a fadeaway every 15 or so minutes he's on the court, essentially 1 per half.
 

slamminsammya

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Is 151 attempts "high volume"? It might be, but I don't know. It's a fadeaway every 15 or so minutes he's on the court, essentially 1 per half.
High both in the sense that we can be fairly confident about his efficiency on those attempts and in the sense that its a good bit of opportunity cost.