The Celtics Offseason

Cellar-Door

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Weren't people in this forum ripping Murray as an empty stats guy during/after the Hawks series? Add in the attitude -- hip-checking and "verbally abusing" a ref at the end of a playoff game and getting suspended as a result -- and I want nothing to do with the guy. There's a reason Atlanta was a .500 team all season long, and it's not all Trae.
A lot of it honestly is Trae, he's legitimately the worst defender in the league and they loaded up on other bad defenders. Murray made sense hypothetically, because he can defend PGs well, but they couldn't adequately hide Trae and Murray struggles on big PGs and SGs, it's like if to fix the IT problem when he had it we got Derrick White and then had mediocre to bad wing defenders. Not a fit for us, but Murray is a solid player
 

TomRicardo

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Is there a worthwhile package Atlanta might give for Jaylen?
No. The money doesn't match up either way. If the Hawks wanted to do Murray and picks for Smart, you could do that but I am not sure that is really getting better.
 

PedroKsBambino

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There's plenty of deals that match up salary wise with Atlanta...though Murray and picks doesn't work cap wise. You can check trades here: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine

You could do Collins/Okongwu for Jaylen straight up. I wouldn't, but you could....that gets Celts bigger (and likely lets you say goodbye to Grant)

You could do Murray/Okongwu. If Hawks add a pick, that's pretty interesting on assumption you can send Smart elsewhere. I'd keep Jaylen, but that may be the best deal for Jaylen that is out there especially if their assessment of hiscontract and the roster is different than mine. Murray is more empty calories than I'd like, but has size, can pass, and is a credible creator.

You could do Bogdanovich, Okongwu, and Griffin. That probably only makes sense if you are planning to move Brogdon or TL as well. So I wouldn't do it but if one's theory is that Celts need to get younger and more athletic, that allows you to let Grant walk and still keep overall depth.

Just to say---Atlanta is a good profile for a Jaylen trade, a bunch of assets and lots of ways to make cap work while also needing (at least possibly) a guy of his tier who also happens to be local.
 

TomRicardo

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The only trade that makes any sense is Dame for Smart and Brown or extend Brown and know Dame will be there in a year. Young doesn't work money or team build. I guess if Charlotte would listen to Melo and Rozier for Brown but I mean I don't think they would listen.
 

TomRicardo

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There's plenty of deals that match up salary wise with Atlanta...though Murray and picks doesn't work cap wise. You can check trades here: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine

You could do Collins/Okongwu for Jaylen straight up. I wouldn't, but you could....that gets Celts bigger (and likely lets you say goodbye to Grant)

You could do Murray/Okongwu. If Hawks add a pick, that's pretty interesting on assumption you can send Smart elsewhere. I'd keep Jaylen, but that may be the best deal for Jaylen that is out there especially if their assessment of hiscontract and the roster is different than mine. Murray is more empty calories than I'd like, but has size, can pass, and is a credible creator.

You could do Bogdanovich, Okongwu, and Griffin. That probably only makes sense if you are planning to move Brogdon or TL as well. So I wouldn't do it but if one's theory is that Celts need to get younger and more athletic, that allows you to let Grant walk and still keep overall depth.

Just to say---Atlanta is a good profile for a Jaylen trade, a bunch of assets and lots of ways to make cap work while also needing (at least possibly) a guy of his tier who also happens to be local.
Collins and Okonhwu for Brown does what exactly? Makes sure Tatum forces his way out? What problem are you fixing there?
 

BaseballJones

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What trade is realistically out there that makes the Celtics better? It’s hard to think of one. Certainly it’s hard to think of one that includes Brown.
 

Devizier

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What trade is realistically out there that makes the Celtics better? It’s hard to think of one. Certainly it’s hard to think of one that includes Brown.
I don’t see one making them better, but some tinkering might make them not worse, which is part of the battle, especially with some players in their decline phase (Al, Brogdon, Smart).
 

PedroKsBambino

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I personally would not be inclined to trade Jaylen--I certainly wouldn't for some older alpha like Dame.

I do think exploring what you can do with Smart, Brodgon, TL, AL, PP (and Grant) makes a lot of sense. I don't specifically want any of them gone, but I do think trying to get a better distributor; a better young big; a wing who is more versatile than Grant makes sense and those are the currencies to get there
 

teddykgb

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I personally would not be inclined to trade Jaylen--I certainly wouldn't for some older alpha like Dame.

I do think exploring what you can do with Smart, Brodgon, TL, AL, PP (and Grant) makes a lot of sense. I don't specifically want any of them gone, but I do think trying to get a better distributor; a better young big; a wing who is more versatile than Grant makes sense and those are the currencies to get there
I don’t think it makes sense but if we basically have to max Brown and keep him a year and then plan to trade him due to CBA does that start to make De make sense? Essentially, if it’s next to impossible to have 2 max players 2-3 years from now does Dame’s age become less of a concern?
 

nighthob

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What trade is realistically out there that makes the Celtics better? It’s hard to think of one. Certainly it’s hard to think of one that includes Brown.
In a year's time there probably would be (i.e. once it's legal to trade him after extending him). But right now a Brown deal would likely create as many problems as it solves. They can see what they picks they can pry out of someone that wants Grant, but that leaves you with the difficulty of replacing him without an available TPE. So it's likely that they take their medicine and re-sign him.

One deal they might try is seeing if the Blazers would deal #23 for hometown hero Pritchard and pray that Coulibaly floats that far (because, one, he has some serious upside, and two, having Wembanyama's teammate opens up some possibilities dealwise with the Spurs).
 

Cellar-Door

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What trade is realistically out there that makes the Celtics better? It’s hard to think of one. Certainly it’s hard to think of one that includes Brown.
I think there are probably a number of trades that at least don't make you worse and give you more flexibility down the line if you aren't sure about Jaylen at the supermax (a real concern) or he won't sign an extension.

Building a championship team is often about more than just the most talent.

I think that they will offer him an extension at somewhere between 31% max and 35% max, if he takes it they bring back a similar team for next year and re-examine options, if he says no he's gone, you can't let him walk. Hard to say what deals would be out there, but I see some under 30 guys who would probably not necessitate any real step back for this team, different skillsets perhaps, or even positions but maybe also better fits with Tatum.
 

BaseballJones

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I think there are probably a number of trades that at least don't make you worse and give you more flexibility down the line if you aren't sure about Jaylen at the supermax (a real concern) or he won't sign an extension.

Building a championship team is often about more than just the most talent.

I think that they will offer him an extension at somewhere between 31% max and 35% max, if he takes it they bring back a similar team for next year and re-examine options, if he says no he's gone, you can't let him walk. Hard to say what deals would be out there, but I see some under 30 guys who would probably not necessitate any real step back for this team, different skillsets perhaps, or even positions but maybe also better fits with Tatum.
Right, but the other team has to want to do the deal too, right? So the trades need to be thought of from both sides. I can thing of guys I'd WANT, but then I ask, would the other team do that, and the answer is almost always no. That's what I meant by what trades are *realistically* out there?
 

Cellar-Door

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Right, but the other team has to want to do the deal too, right? So the trades need to be thought of from both sides. I can thing of guys I'd WANT, but then I ask, would the other team do that, and the answer is almost always no. That's what I meant by what trades are *realistically* out there?
Hard to know what teams are thinking obviously... but I'm taking based on people like Lowe saying the trade market would be large and robust that guys are available for Jaylen, and it should be, he's a good player, and the question of paying him the designated player max is only BOS's problem, everyone else is planning on just a normal max.
 

Average Game James

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I don't want to see the Celtics trade Jaylen, but if they decide to go that route because they view the new CBA restrictions as making it too tough to build a team around two super max players, I'm more intrigued by chasing some upside for '24-25 and beyond than swapping Jaylen for role players since the team takes a step back next year no matter what if they trade him. If the team has to be a little worse next year, let’s at least have some players we think can be meaningfully better for Tatum’s prime age 27-30 years (I know, hard to think that far ahead when he’s only 19).

A lot of folks have crapped all over the idea of a deal with Portland built around Simons and #3, but Simons is at least young with some room for growth and you give yourself some options from a roster construction standpoint whether it's Scoot or Miller there at #3. If it's Scoot, you can put him into the Brogdon role as the third guard next year and then use Simons/Brogdon as trade chips to try to bring in another wing player and/or a better backup big. And if it’s Miller, you have a talented wing prospect and still have one of Brogdon/Simons as a trade piece while the other is your third guard that can hopefully score a little bit.

I know it’s viewed as a 3 player draft, but if the Celtics really like one of the Thompson twins or another guy after the top, similar logic to a deal with Houston, especially if Brown is interested in an Ime reunion. Something built around #4 and Green or Jabari Smith gives you that same flexibility.

Again, not my preference, but if they are going to trade Jaylen that’s the route I’d want to see them go.

Edit: I’m operating under the assumption Brooklyn isn’t interested in a Bridges/Clayton type of deal
 
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Deathofthebambino

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I'm not going to scroll through an entire highlight package b/c I'm not a scout nor am I that guy who picks apart defensive failures, but 2:30 is exactly the kind of infuriating Jaylen play that I mentioned where he's jogging half speed as the opponent is in transition. That's not a unique occurrence game to game, and it's just as annoying as when we get on Tatum for screaming at the refs instead of getting back.

As Cellar-Door notes above, the rep of his overall defense "has never been particularly good." I'll trust people who know more than me (here's an example with film: https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/11/30/23460819/jaylen-brown-dilemma-boston-celtics-defense-offense-jayson-tatum-joe-mazzulla). Caveat for defensive stats, but his Drtg is league average. He has some highs - like the Philly series - because he's big and athletic, but that's what makes it so frustrating. He COULD be really incredible, and instead he's just kind of inconsistent.



He wants a $300 million extension. It's like you're saying "he's not that good, but we shouldn't expect him to be", which is not typically how teams or fans think of max players. They're supposed to show up in the playoffs and not actively contribute to an embarrassing game 7 loss. He's not the little engine that could. He's a second team all-nba player.

I get that you really like him, and he's a top 25/top 30 player no doubt, but committing 40% of the cap to him puts a ceiling on the Celtics. Why would we expect next year's playoffs to be any different once teams realize he can't dribble or distribute?
So basically, you're just going to continue to push a narrative, and when asked for examples, you just pass the buck?

On that play at 2:30, that "infuriates you," tell me, why weren't you infuriated by the way Derrick White got up the court and guarded nobody, Tatum who was barely in front of Jaylen and guarded nobody...Smart who tried to, I guess, bother the shot, but didn't....Meanwhile, Jaylen is actually the only one guarding anyone, as there is a trailer behind him coming up the court even if you don't like the pace by which he's apparently doing it.

I personally do not care how much effort Jaylen or anyone else puts into defense in the regular season. I think we're seeing in these playoffs just how little the regular season means (same in the NHL mind you). If Jaylen wants to take plays off in the regular season because unlike Tatum, he's not being asked to stand in the corner and guard a corner 3 on possession after possession, I've always been ok with that. In these playoffs, Jaylen has been really good defensively. Yeah, there's a few plays here or there that he didn't play well, but I mean, other teams score like 40 baskets a game, everybody is going to have some bad moments on defense over the course of an entire game.

If Tatum and the 6th man of the year, plus our best defensive big in TL, aren't hurt in next year's playoffs, Jaylen won't be asked to distribute or dribble. If they are, we aren't winning shit anyway.

If players aren't allowed to have a bad day at the office, why do you still like Tatum?

Tatum in the game 6 elimination last year: 40 minutes, 6/18 from the floor, 13 points, 3 rebounds, 7 assists and 5 turnovers. In that same game, Jaylen was 12/23 (5/11 from deep) for 34 points, 7 boards, 3 assists and also 5 turnovers. Jaylen was a +1 in a 12 point loss.

When we needed Tatum to step up because Brown missed the series with injury in 2021, in the first round, Tatum threw up a big 50 point night in their only win. In the other 4 games, all losses, he was 31/81, averaged 6.7 rebounds, 4.0 assists, 3.0 turnovers and 25ppg (mostly because he made 8 free throws per game.

In the elimination game against Miami in 2020, Tatum went 9/26 for 24 points, had 11 boards, 2 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 steals. In the same game, Jaylen was 10/17 for 26 points, 8 boards, 4 assists, 2 turnovers and 3 steals.

Who played better in each of the game 5 losses this year to Atlanta and Philly? If Tatum shows up for those, maybe things are a bit different, but folks certainly remember Jaylen's bricked free throws from those games, but not the 4/21 that Tatum shot from deep in the 2 losses. One guy had 59 points on 39 shots, the other had 55 points on 48 shots.

I'm not trying to argue that Brown is better than Tatum, he's not, it's not even close, but it's clear that they are as good a young duo in this league and 27 other teams (maybe more) would give anything to be in the C's position right now with them. They do make each other better, but I think we haven't found the right pieces to put with them as of yet.

Of course, that has nothing to do with whether or not you sign Brown to a supermax. It is a massive, massive tool for Brad to have in the war chest next year if things don't work out or if he wants to move in another direction. If they don't offer it to him, and Brown refuses to resign this season, you are getting pennies on the dollar in return for him, and that's even assuming you can find a team that he'll agree to resign with after next season. If you can't find one of those, the C's could very well end up in a position with Brown walking and getting nothing in return, because none of these proposed trades are accounting for the fact that Jaylen may very well be a 1 year rental if he won't agree to sign.


If Jaylen makes all-NBA for another team next year, would he not be eligible for the supermax the following year? I think Jaylen is the kind of guy that would refuse to resign anywhere for less than the supermax, because he believes he can do it again next year (especially when he can go full Dame somewhere and just fill up the box score and not have to worry about wins).
 

Auger34

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Weren't people in this forum ripping Murray as an empty stats guy during/after the Hawks series? Add in the attitude -- hip-checking and "verbally abusing" a ref at the end of a playoff game and getting suspended as a result -- and I want nothing to do with the guy. There's a reason Atlanta was a .500 team all season long, and it's not all Trae.
Murray is a clown and he's not a personality/culture fit on this team or a team trying to seriously win a title.

You have the ref thing that you mentioned, which is completely inexcusable, as well as his general attitude/reactions. I remember him doing a double finger gun celebration towards Derrick White after he hit a turnaround on him....and they were losing by 20.
 

ManicCompression

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So basically, you're just going to continue to push a narrative, and when asked for examples, you just pass the buck?

On that play at 2:30, that "infuriates you," tell me, why weren't you infuriated by the way Derrick White got up the court and guarded nobody, Tatum who was barely in front of Jaylen and guarded nobody...Smart who tried to, I guess, bother the shot, but didn't....Meanwhile, Jaylen is actually the only one guarding anyone, as there is a trailer behind him coming up the court even if you don't like the pace by which he's apparently doing it.
No, I'm acknowledging that I'm not a pro basketball scout and my opinions are informed somewhat by reading the opinions of others who do this professionally. Pretty much every bball media member that I follow agrees that he's capable of really good man defense at times but overall he's just average because he makes poor decisions. Case in point - leaving James Harden on a game winning shot to unnecessarily double Embiid, which he admitted was dumb. Average for someone with his build and athleticism is disappointing.

Regarding the play at 2:30, I'm talking about Jaylen Brown because you asked me about Jaylen Brown. You've done this a couple times where you compare Jaylen to someone else on the team, as if that's an out for Jaylen. It's not. Marcus Smart can also be frustrating - we have a whole thread about trading him because of it. We have a thread about Derrick White. And also Jayson Tatum. This conversation - the one you're having with me - is about Jaylen Brown. Him jogging up the court forces the rest of the team to be out of position in transition. That seems pretty clear to me.

I personally do not care how much effort Jaylen or anyone else puts into defense in the regular season.
I also don't care about Jaylen in the regular season. As we've seen, he's great in the regular season, when other teams are also not trying on every play and scoring is easier. I care about Jaylen Brown in the playoffs, and it's clear that teams employ strategies against him that really work because his skill level in certain areas is not what it needs to be.

If players aren't allowed to have a bad day at the office, why do you still like Tatum?
Again, what does Jaylen Brown have to do with Jayson Tatum? I don't understand your need to compare the two. But to answer your question, Jayson Tatum is better at everything. He's a better shooter, he's a better passer, he's a better defender, he's bigger, he's younger, and he has a better feel for the game. Players can have off nights - I never said they couldn't - but it seems kind of clear to me that this is Jaylen's ceiling as a player and that's very good, but not good enough for the highest levels of NBA competition. This you also admit because you don't think he should be expected to elevate the team in an elimination game in the ECF when Tatum is injured.

You seem to want Jaylen to be treated with kid gloves, like he's a plucky underdog, and any sort of production we get out of him is gravy. That doesn't make sense to me. If he's going to be paid like a max player, that should come with max player expectations, and max player expectations are greater than that of Payton Pritchard.

I think it's totally rational to bring Brown back and even offer him the max because of what you stated above. It's an accounting issue rather than a basketball one, and the Cs don't have a lot of choice in the matter. That said, the team will be locking in a ceiling for themselves under the new CBA, likely under that of a championship team, in part because their second best player is just short of good enough.
 

Auger34

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Regarding the play at 2:30, I'm talking about Jaylen Brown because you asked me about Jaylen Brown. You've done this a couple times where you compare Jaylen to someone else on the team, as if that's an out for Jaylen. It's not. Marcus Smart can also be frustrating - we have a whole thread about trading him because of it. We have a thread about Derrick White. And also Jayson Tatum. This conversation - the one you're having with me - is about Jaylen Brown. Him jogging up the court forces the rest of the team to be out of position in transition. That seems pretty clear to me.
I don’t know how you can watch that clip and specifically say Jaylen jogging back forces the entire team out of position or that it’s clear to see. Before getting into detail, him and Tatum are basically stride for stride until Jaylen peels back to guard Bam.

Jaylen and Bam were underneath the basket for the rebound. It seems like he’s guarding Bam (the trail man) since they were both the furthest away from the play and due to the fact he looks behind him a few times to gauge where Bam is.

Judging by the reactions after the shot (and who shot it) I would bet a decent amount of money that Tatum was supposed to be guarding Caleb Martin and lost him (Tatum looks kind of disgusted and I believe he was guarding Martin in the first half).

EDIT: Jaylen is a top 20-25 player. There are maybe 4 teams that have a better second star than Boston (IMO, it’s 2). The Lakers, Suns, Clippers, and Nuggets
The hes not good enough for the playoffs take isn’t rooted in reality.
 
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Deathofthebambino

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No, I'm acknowledging that I'm not a pro basketball scout and my opinions are informed somewhat by reading the opinions of others who do this professionally. Pretty much every bball media member that I follow agrees that he's capable of really good man defense at times but overall he's just average because he makes poor decisions. Case in point - leaving James Harden on a game winning shot to unnecessarily double Embiid, which he admitted was dumb. Average for someone with his build and athleticism is disappointing.

Regarding the play at 2:30, I'm talking about Jaylen Brown because you asked me about Jaylen Brown. You've done this a couple times where you compare Jaylen to someone else on the team, as if that's an out for Jaylen. It's not. Marcus Smart can also be frustrating - we have a whole thread about trading him because of it. We have a thread about Derrick White. And also Jayson Tatum. This conversation - the one you're having with me - is about Jaylen Brown. Him jogging up the court forces the rest of the team to be out of position in transition. That seems pretty clear to me.
Jaylen Brown was not the reason that their transition defense sucked on that play. Not even a little bit. He was guarding a TRAILER on the play. He was the last guy up the court because he was underneath the hoop in the lane when the shot went up. The Celtics had 4 defensive players down the court, against 3 Miami Heat, but you blame Jaylen for not their transition defense? Yeah, you're not a scout. Nobody on this board is a MLB scout either, but we try to bring actual facts and evidence to our arguments around here. You're bringing nothing but narratives.

I also don't care about Jaylen in the regular season. As we've seen, he's great in the regular season, when other teams are also not trying on every play and scoring is easier. I care about Jaylen Brown in the playoffs, and it's clear that teams employ strategies against him that really work because his skill level in certain areas is not what it needs to be.
Jaylen Brown last 3 years regular season: .483/.361, 19.4fga, 25.0ppg, 6.3rpg, 3.4apg, 2.8topg.
Jaylen Brown last 3 playoffs: .480/.363, 22.6ppg, 17.6 fga, 6.6rpg, 3.1apg, 3.0topg

Are you trying to tell me that .3 assists per game less and .2 turnovers per game are the reason the C's are losing in the playoffs, or maybe it's something else?

Again, what does Jaylen Brown have to do with Jayson Tatum? I don't understand your need to compare the two. But to answer your question, Jayson Tatum is better at everything. He's a better shooter, he's a better passer, he's a better defender, he's bigger, he's younger, and he has a better feel for the game. Players can have off nights - I never said they couldn't - but it seems kind of clear to me that this is Jaylen's ceiling as a player and that's very good, but not good enough for the highest levels of NBA competition. This you also admit because you don't think he should be expected to elevate the team in an elimination game in the ECF when Tatum is injured.

You seem to want Jaylen to be treated with kid gloves, like he's a plucky underdog, and any sort of production we get out of him is gravy. That doesn't make sense to me. If he's going to be paid like a max player, that should come with max player expectations, and max player expectations are greater than that of Payton Pritchard.

I think it's totally rational to bring Brown back and even offer him the max because of what you stated above. It's an accounting issue rather than a basketball one, and the Cs don't have a lot of choice in the matter. That said, the team will be locking in a ceiling for themselves under the new CBA, likely under that of a championship team, in part because their second best player is just short of good enough.
That wasn't my question. My question was why don't you want to run him out of town when he plays below his capabilities?

Jayson Tatum, last 3 seasons: .459/.361, 20.8fga, 27.9ppg, 8.1rpg, 4.4apg, 2.8topg
Jayson Tatum, last 3 playoffs: .439/.364, 20.1fga, 26.8ppg, 8.3rpg, 5.6apg, 3.4topg

I'm not comparing the two. I'm pointing out the complete, and total hypocrisy around here when Tatum gets a free pass when he plays like complete shit, folks barely acknowledge Jaylen when he throws the team on his back in a lot of those moments, but God forbid Jaylen isn't perfect, the pitchforks start flying. It's ridiculous.

All I ever ask for is actual evidence, actual facts, actual numbers. I want to know how not giving Jaylen the supermax and letting him walk or trading him for pennies will make this team better. These two guys have been to 5 ECF Finals together and an NBA finals, so I assume whatever deal folks around here want to make, it's Championship or bust, because that's pretty much the only improvement we can make. I'm damn sure if we get rid of Jaylen, and lose in the 2nd round next year, folks won't be all upset when I remind them that we had a perennial ECF Finals team and made it worse, because Jaylen things or something.
 

Return of the Dewey

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It could be me, but I get a sense that the team-building and team philosophy during this Stevens era was one that centered on beating LeBron-led teams. Long and athletic players who could switch on LeBron
This is a good take. I especially like the bit about "finding" some overlooked players. I think this is where the FO really needs to earn their money, especially with the new CBA coming. When's the last time that the Cs had an undrafted/2d rounder that became a solid contributor? It's tough, but it can be done, and many of the championship level teams of the last few years had at least 1-2 of those type of players (Draymond Greene (2d round), Jokic (2d round), Miami (too many undrafted/2d rounders to list), Middleton (2d round)).
 

jezza1918

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Jaylen Brown was not the reason that their transition defense sucked on that play. Not even a little bit. He was guarding a TRAILER on the play. He was the last guy up the court because he was underneath the hoop in the lane when the shot went up. The Celtics had 4 defensive players down the court, against 3 Miami Heat, but you blame Jaylen for not their transition defense? Yeah, you're not a scout. Nobody on this board is a MLB scout either, but we try to bring actual facts and evidence to our arguments around here. You're bringing nothing but narratives.



Jaylen Brown last 3 years regular season: .483/.361, 19.4fga, 25.0ppg, 6.3rpg, 3.4apg, 2.8topg.
Jaylen Brown last 3 playoffs: .480/.363, 22.6ppg, 17.6 fga, 6.6rpg, 3.1apg, 3.0topg

Are you trying to tell me that .3 assists per game less and .2 turnovers per game are the reason the C's are losing in the playoffs, or maybe it's something else?



That wasn't my question. My question was why don't you want to run him out of town when he plays below his capabilities?

Jayson Tatum, last 3 seasons: .459/.361, 20.8fga, 27.9ppg, 8.1rpg, 4.4apg, 2.8topg
Jayson Tatum, last 3 playoffs: .439/.364, 20.1fga, 26.8ppg, 8.3rpg, 5.6apg, 3.4topg

I'm not comparing the two. I'm pointing out the complete, and total hypocrisy around here when Tatum gets a free pass when he plays like complete shit, folks barely acknowledge Jaylen when he throws the team on his back in a lot of those moments, but God forbid Jaylen isn't perfect, the pitchforks start flying. It's ridiculous.

All I ever ask for is actual evidence, actual facts, actual numbers. I want to know how not giving Jaylen the supermax and letting him walk or trading him for pennies will make this team better. These two guys have been to 5 ECF Finals together and an NBA finals, so I assume whatever deal folks around here want to make, it's Championship or bust, because that's pretty much the only improvement we can make. I'm damn sure if we get rid of Jaylen, and lose in the 2nd round next year, folks won't be all upset when I remind them that we had a perennial ECF Finals team and made it worse, because Jaylen things or something.
I largely agree with what you are saying, but WRT to the bolded I do feel like last postseason (and a couple times this postseason) the pitchforks were out in the Tatum thread all the time? which to me just says all the rhetoric around both players is too reactionary, and 99% of the backlash lacks any context comparing them to other players who also underperform all the time in the playoffs.
 

Cellar-Door

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It could be me, but I get a sense that the team-building and team philosophy during this Stevens era was one that centered on beating LeBron-led teams. Long and athletic players who could switch on LeBron

This is a good take. I especially like the bit about "finding" some overlooked players. I think this is where the FO really needs to earn their money, especially with the new CBA coming. When's the last time that the Cs had an undrafted/2d rounder that became a solid contributor? It's tough, but it can be done, and many of the championship level teams of the last few years had at least 1-2 of those type of players (Draymond Greene (2d round), Jokic (2d round), Miami (too many undrafted/2d rounders to list), Middleton (2d round)).
If you mean their own 2nd round picks... been a while.
Part of that is most impact 2nd rounders come in the first 10 or so picks (Jokic was 11th, but the other guys you list are top 10).
Celtics picks in that range:
2019- Carsen Edwards... bleh
2017- Semi Ojeleye played a rotation role on teams that went to the ECF
2016- two early 2nds traded for a future 1st (traded for a 1st and the Edwards pick, that 1st was traded with Baynes for a 1st, which was traded to dump Kanter for a pair of 2nds

Last guy who was a true hit I can find was E'Twaun Moore.
 

ManicCompression

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Jaylen Brown was not the reason that their transition defense sucked on that play. Not even a little bit. He was guarding a TRAILER on the play. He was the last guy up the court because he was underneath the hoop in the lane when the shot went up. The Celtics had 4 defensive players down the court, against 3 Miami Heat, but you blame Jaylen for not their transition defense? Yeah, you're not a scout. Nobody on this board is a MLB scout either, but we try to bring actual facts and evidence to our arguments around here. You're bringing nothing but narratives.
Not even a little bit?
65493

Jaylen and Tatum are even here. It's currently three Heat vs. three Celtics. Tatum has a sprained ankle. Duncan Robinson is behind Jaylen.

65494

Now Duncan Robinson has sprinted up the floor, past Jaylen. It's transition. Might be good for him to guard Robinson since no one else can, and Tatum can take the trailer as you so note. Also, Tatum has a sprained ankle.

65495

Now Robinson is going to hit the three point line in stride. Jaylen? Still taking his time on the logo, not even moving in that direction. Smart has to guard two shooters simultaneously. Easy three in transition.

The most generous thing you can say about Jaylen on this play is that he's maybe not the ONLY reason they scored, but he certainly does absolutely nothing to help on the play. Robinson beat him down the floor. That's indisputable. If he sticks to Robinson, Smart can stay on Martin, and Lowry probably has to slow it down to a half-court possession.

If we're looking at "actual facts", please show me where Jaylen is "not even a little bit" to blame on this play. He's really totally blameless in your eyes? This is game 7, ECF effort to you?

I'm not comparing the two. I'm pointing out the complete, and total hypocrisy around here when Tatum gets a free pass when he plays like complete shit, folks barely acknowledge
I've criticized Tatum. A lot of posters have criticized Tatum. I don't need to criticize Tatum every time I criticize Jaylen Brown. I really don't think Tatum gets a free pass on these boards. He needs to up his level of play as well - he just seems to be more likely to do so because he's a better player.

All I ever ask for is actual evidence, actual facts, actual numbers. I want to know how not giving Jaylen the supermax and letting him walk or trading him for pennies will make this team better. These two guys have been to 5 ECF Finals together and an NBA finals, so I assume whatever deal folks around here want to make, it's Championship or bust, because that's pretty much the only improvement we can make. I'm damn sure if we get rid of Jaylen, and lose in the 2nd round next year, folks won't be all upset when I remind them that we had a perennial ECF Finals team and made it worse, because Jaylen things or something.
I'm not trying to "run him out of town." I didn't say that trading him for pennies would make them better. I said they're capped because his skill level. They're capped because of Tatum's skill level, too, but I think Tatum has more room to grow because he's simply has more feel for the game. Also, it wouldn't make sense - if you were to split the two of them up - to get rid of the obviously better player who's underpaid in the salary cap system and keep the inferior player who's overpaid in the system.
 

Auger34

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I largely agree with what you are saying, but WRT to the bolded I do feel like last postseason (and a couple times this postseason) the pitchforks were out in the Tatum thread all the time? which to me just says all the rhetoric around both players is too reactionary, and 99% of the backlash lacks any context comparing them to other players who also underperform all the time in the playoffs.
Not nearly to the same extent.

If you think that there is even close to the same amount of vitriol for the players, I would invite you to look at the Game 7 game thread. Someone in there was posting consistently about how he thinks Jayson exaggerates his injuries to make up for playoff failings. A ton of posters got VERY upset. There was talk of banning him.

Meanwhile, there's a specific poster that literally goes into game threads just to shit on Jaylen. That is all that he does..I've never seen him post anything informative or even attempt to do anything other than call out Jaylen. He comes in the thread and says "fuck Jaylen Brown" with his normal bullshit after and no one bats an eye. In fact, I think someone responded to him and agreed with it.

When Tatum gets criticized, it's always a very specific thing and not nearly that venomous. It's I don't know if he will ever be the #1 guy on a team and they might need to bring in someone better to be the #1 guy. I don't think I've seen anyone say that they want him shipped out.

When Jaylen gets criticized, it's much more personal and "get him out of here, I never want to see him play again!!!". There's also much more of a hesitance to just say Jaylen had a great game.

Also, just anecdotally, after Tatum's Finals last year, there were a ton of posters talking about how he obviously had a serious shoulder injury that needed surgery and that excused his performance. It was the most common narrative on the board. (I have no idea how much the shoulder hurt him but I do know he didn't have surgery on it)

There are very, very few posters mentioning Brown's hand/arm/wrist...and when it is mentioned, it's "it might have played an issue".

Jayson is definitely the favored son on this board
 

jezza1918

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Not nearly to the same extent.

If you think that there is even close to the same amount of vitriol for the players, I would invite you to look at the Game 7 game thread. Someone in there was posting consistently about how he thinks Jayson exaggerates his injuries to make up for playoff failings. A ton of posters got VERY upset. There was talk of banning him.

Meanwhile, there's a specific poster that literally goes into game threads just to shit on Jaylen. That is all that he does..I've never seen him post anything informative or even attempt to do anything other than call out Jaylen. He comes in the thread and says "fuck Jaylen Brown" with his normal bullshit after and no one bats an eye. In fact, I think someone responded to him and agreed with it.

When Tatum gets criticized, it's always a very specific thing and not nearly that venomous. It's I don't know if he will ever be the #1 guy on a team and they might need to bring in someone better to be the #1 guy. I don't think I've seen anyone say that they want him shipped out.

When Jaylen gets criticized, it's much more personal and "get him out of here, I never want to see him play again!!!". There's also much more of a hesitance to just say Jaylen had a great game.

Also, just anecdotally, after Tatum's Finals last year, there were a ton of posters talking about how he obviously had a serious shoulder injury that needed surgery and that excused his performance. It was the most common narrative on the board. (I have no idea how much the shoulder hurt him but I do know he didn't have surgery on it)

There are very, very few posters mentioning Brown's hand/arm/wrist...and when it is mentioned, it's "it might have played an issue".

Jayson is definitely the favored son on this board
Fair, I think we are talking about two slightly different things. I agree with everything you wrote. The way Jaylen is criticized is vastly different, I was more coming from angle of simply the amount of times that Tatum thread would get bumped LAST post season seemed very similar to Jaylen's this season. I largely avoid game threads fwiw, so I will defer to your analysis. FWIW, my personal opinion is that Tatum's shoulder was somewhat of an issue last year, and his ankle was very much an issue in game 7. And Brown's hand was an issue this season. I don't view these as excuses, I view them as part of the explanation as to why they didn't play up to their potential at times. It's sports, it happens. People that use these types of things to build narratives about either of these guys being soft makes me a little stabby.
 

Auger34

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Not even a little bit?
View attachment 65493

Jaylen and Tatum are even here. It's currently three Heat vs. three Celtics. Tatum has a sprained ankle. Duncan Robinson is behind Jaylen.

View attachment 65494

Now Duncan Robinson has sprinted up the floor, past Jaylen. It's transition. Might be good for him to guard Robinson since no one else can, and Tatum can take the trailer as you so note. Also, Tatum has a sprained ankle.

View attachment 65495

Now Robinson is going to hit the three point line in stride. Jaylen? Still taking his time on the logo, not even moving in that direction. Smart has to guard two shooters simultaneously. Easy three in transition.

The most generous thing you can say about Jaylen on this play is that he's maybe not the ONLY reason they scored, but he certainly does absolutely nothing to help on the play. Robinson beat him down the floor. That's indisputable. If he sticks to Robinson, Smart can stay on Martin, and Lowry probably has to slow it down to a half-court possession.
Looking at these screenshots, it's even more apparent that Jaylen is guarding the trail man. If you were to take the screenshots at face value, Tatum is kind of jogging to nowhere.

However, given the context and watching the clip, I think Jayson is jogging to cover Haywood Highsmith who is running to the corner in the area where Jayson is running.

Unfortunately, Smart pointed at White to cover Haywood who is running with him...unfortunately, it seems like no one on the team knew where Caleb Martin was, which leads to him getting a wide open 3 pointer.

Transition defense requires a lot of communication. Generally, the person boxing out and is farthest away from the play, guards the trail man (thats Jaylen).

Again, I have no idea how you can watch that play and come away with the idea that Jaylen fucked over his teammates and caused the fast break 3. It looks like a multitude of factors caused the open 3....the worst thing you could say about Jaylen would be that he should have taken agency for Tatum's injury (something that Tatum didn't seem to do on this play) yelled at him to cover the trail man and then just ran to a corner anticipating Smart's communication. That's kind of a lot and not really obvious
 

ManicCompression

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Again, I have no idea how you can watch that play and come away with the idea that Jaylen fucked over his teammates and caused the fast break 3. It looks like a multitude of factors caused the open 3....the worst thing you could say about Jaylen would be that he should have taken agency for Tatum's injury (something that Tatum didn't seem to do on this play) yelled at him to cover the trail man and then just ran to a corner anticipating Smart's communication. That's kind of a lot and not really obvious
I mean, I hate that we're diving this much into one single play, but you have no idea how one can watch Jaylen Brown be the closest player to Duncan Robinson - who was behind him when the play started - and make no effort to guard a shooter as good as DR in transition and think that this action puts Marcus Smart in a compromising position (having to guard two shooters as once)? No idea at all?
 

Auger34

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I mean, I hate that we're diving this much into one single play, but you have no idea how one can watch Jaylen Brown be the closest player to Duncan Robinson - who was behind him when the play started - and make no effort to guard a shooter as good as DR in transition and think that this action puts Marcus Smart in a compromising position (having to guard two shooters as once)? No idea at all?
Smart has to guard that many shooters because he specifically motions White to guard Highsmith and didn’t notice Martin trailing him.

That’s where the communication thing comes into play. If Smart doesn’t call on White to guard Higbdmith, they actually have the play covered. White stays on that side of the court and he can either guard Martin or have one side of the court contested with 3 people which makes it easier to guard. If Highsmith ends up doing the same thing, Jayson is running to that area to cover it
 

Deathofthebambino

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I mean, I hate that we're diving this much into one single play, but you have no idea how one can watch Jaylen Brown be the closest player to Duncan Robinson - who was behind him when the play started - and make no effort to guard a shooter as good as DR in transition and think that this action puts Marcus Smart in a compromising position (having to guard two shooters as once)? No idea at all?
This was your initial quote that led to me responding: "And the defense is not a bonus, if it ever was, and he jogged around game 7 with the urgency of a server at Denny's."

I then posted the entire game highlights, and asked you to point out plays where you thought this was the case. This is the ONLY play you could come up with. So even if I grant you this play, which is absurd IMO, how does that jive with your quote above? Jaylen's defense wasn't a problem in game 7, and it wasn't a problem throughout these playoffs. Shooting in some games, turnovers in others, absolutely a problem, but Jaylen was engaged and making plays on defense pretty much throughout the playoffs, while being asked to cover the opponents best scorers, and then handle the duties of an all-NBA scorer on the other end.
 

Cellar-Door

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Looking at these screenshots, it's even more apparent that Jaylen is guarding the trail man. If you were to take the screenshots at face value, Tatum is kind of jogging to nowhere.

However, given the context and watching the clip, I think Jayson is jogging to cover Haywood Highsmith who is running to the corner in the area where Jayson is running.

Unfortunately, Smart pointed at White to cover Haywood who is running with him...unfortunately, it seems like no one on the team knew where Caleb Martin was, which leads to him getting a wide open 3 pointer.

Transition defense requires a lot of communication. Generally, the person boxing out and is farthest away from the play, guards the trail man (thats Jaylen).

Again, I have no idea how you can watch that play and come away with the idea that Jaylen fucked over his teammates and caused the fast break 3. It looks like a multitude of factors caused the open 3....the worst thing you could say about Jaylen would be that he should have taken agency for Tatum's injury (something that Tatum didn't seem to do on this play) yelled at him to cover the trail man and then just ran to a corner anticipating Smart's communication. That's kind of a lot and not really obvious
There is absolutely no reason Jaylen should be waiting on the trail man (who is a big) he should be either... sprinting with Robinson (likely his man) or coming back hard so Horford who did a good job to get back and stop Lowry's path, can switch off and not have to guard a PG in space. Tatum should also be getting back into the play, neither should be jogging while waiting for Bam.

In particular, once Jaylen sees Robinson go by him he has to know it's now 4 v 3 unless he gets in the play since Tatum was also lazy getting back, but is on the far side of the court.

Both stars played like garbage there.
 

8slim

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FWIW, Mike Gorman was on T&R this morning and said the team needs a new PG and C. Said Rob is a 4 and Al is too old, and that Marcus should be a backup 1/2.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Fair, I think we are talking about two slightly different things. I agree with everything you wrote. The way Jaylen is criticized is vastly different, I was more coming from angle of simply the amount of times that Tatum thread would get bumped LAST post season seemed very similar to Jaylen's this season. I largely avoid game threads fwiw, so I will defer to your analysis. FWIW, my personal opinion is that Tatum's shoulder was somewhat of an issue last year, and his ankle was very much an issue in game 7. And Brown's hand was an issue this season. I don't view these as excuses, I view them as part of the explanation as to why they didn't play up to their potential at times. It's sports, it happens. People that use these types of things to build narratives about either of these guys being soft makes me a little stabby.
Jaylen was catching shrapnel throughout the playoffs around here, as he does throughout the season. It's almost maniacal.

And it seems nobody cared that through the first 13 playoff games, Jaylen shot 54.1% from the field and 47.1% from deep. Without his contributions on defense, and hot hand, this team isn't even playing game 1 of the ECF, never mind game 7. But God forbid the guy miss a free throw, or turn the ball over. In Game 6, when Tatum was going 8/22 and 0/8 from deep, there was Brown going 9/16 from the floor (0/4 from deep), burying 5 clutch free throws down the stretch and ripping down 5 offensive boards (10 boards total), but nope, we were filled with angst and folks ready to kill him, because he missed one late free throw and had 4 turnovers (the same number Tatum had).

Edit: Meant to address the rest of your post too, you are absolutely correct on the reactionary bullshit. If it were up to a bunch of folks around here (not necessarily in this forum), Jimmy G. would have been the QB of the NE Patriots from about 2015 onward.
 
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ManicCompression

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I then posted the entire game highlights, and asked you to point out plays where you thought this was the case. This is the ONLY play you could come up with. So even if I grant you this play, which is absurd IMO, how does that jive with your quote above? Jaylen's defense wasn't a problem in game 7, and it wasn't a problem throughout these playoffs. Shooting in some games, turnovers in others, absolutely a problem, but Jaylen was engaged and making plays on defense pretty much throughout the playoffs, while being asked to cover the opponents best scorers, and then handle the duties of an all-NBA scorer on the other end.
How is it absurd? Why can't you just admit his effort sucks here?

I'm sorry, I don't have all of the time in the world to spend hours digging through a highlight package and IDing every single time he moved like it was game 62. I picked the first, most obvious one, a turning point early in the game when the Heat were building their lead, and then you're defying reality by pretending like it makes sense for him to worry about Bam Adebayo in transition (not even a factor in the play) instead of Duncan Robinson. There's also the Vincent soft closeout like 4 minutes into the video, and the Lowry man to man defense like 7 minutes in where he doesn't really contest the jumper.

Jaylen's defense wasn't a problem on the Harden 3? Okay.

As I've said like three times, he's kind of average on defense. Sometimes he makes some great plays, and sometimes he makes some bad ones. I'm not alone in this opinion.


But God forbid the guy miss a free throw, or turn the ball over. In Game 6, when Tatum was going 8/22 and 0/8 from deep, there was Brown going 9/16 from the floor (0/4 from deep), burying 5 clutch free throws down the stretch and ripping down 5 offensive boards (10 boards total), but nope, we were filled with angst and folks ready to kill him,
Who is ready to kill him? You've really got a complex about this - saying the guy might be overpaid on the max and it might have adverse effects on the Celtics is not "angst"
 

TomRicardo

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As is usually the case, Mike Gorman is correct.
I mean Naz Reid is the name you should be looking at center. Maybe Nick Richards if you can't find a way to grab Naz.

Point Guard is really tough. This team needs a Rajon Rondo type facilitator and I am really at a loss at who is out there. I have seen Tyus Jones but I am not sure how you pry him from Memphis
 

jablo1312

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I think there are probably a number of trades that at least don't make you worse and give you more flexibility down the line if you aren't sure about Jaylen at the supermax (a real concern) or he won't sign an extension.

Building a championship team is often about more than just the most talent.

I think that they will offer him an extension at somewhere between 31% max and 35% max, if he takes it they bring back a similar team for next year and re-examine options, if he says no he's gone, you can't let him walk. Hard to say what deals would be out there, but I see some under 30 guys who would probably not necessitate any real step back for this team, different skillsets perhaps, or even positions but maybe also better fits with Tatum.
At the absolute highest levels, yes. But being among the inner-circle of annual title contenders is about which teams have the most talent. With Tatum & Brown you are very close to that threshold of top-tier talent. The issue is 1. filling it out around them with the playoffs in mind (i.e. finding enough 2 way players that won't be played off the court on offense or defense vs. locked-in, top tier teams) and 2. building out a team that utilizies the players around the top-tier talent to maximize the strengths of the top players. From what I can tell that is what generally wins in the NBA. It's a lot harder to acquire that top-tier talent then it is to fill out the roster around it- this is why 1/4th of the league is tanking at a given time.

I'm very open to the idea that giving Jaylen the max isn't the best way to utilize the massive amount of cap space it will take, but we need to not just talk about alternatives and what the objectives of this team are. The reality is, they probably won't win the title next year, even if they're the favorite. Barring some insane event there won't be a pre-season favorite against the field in the NBA the rest of this decade. But he team as currently constructed will enter next season as close to title favorites. That obviously doesn't mean you can't make moves now- they need to urgently prepare for the eventual loss of Horford as an impact player, and get ready for the onerous cap issues they'll face starting after next season for the rest of this CBA- but you need to think hard about what you're potentially taking a step back for if you move away from JB, not just for next year but for the next 5 years.
 
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Cellar-Door

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At the absolute highest levels, yes. But being among the inner-circle of annual title contenders if often about which teams have the most talent. With Tatum & Brown you are very close to that threshold of top-tier talent. The issue is 1. filling it out around them with the playoffs in mind (i.e. finding enough 2 way players that won't be played off the court on offense or defense vs. locked-in, top tier teams) and 2. building out a team that utilizies the players around the top-tier talent to maximize the strengths of the top players. From what I can tell that is what generally wins in the NBA. It's a lot harder to acquire that top-tier talent then it is to fill out the roster around it- this is why 1/4th of the league is tanking at a given time.

I'm very open to the idea that giving Jaylen the max isn't the best way to utilize the massive amount of cap space it will take, but we need to not just talk about alternatives and what the objectives of this team are. The reality is, they probably won't win the title next year, even if they're the favorite. Barring some insane event there won't be a pre-season favorite against the field in the NBA the rest of this decade. The team as currently constructed will enter next season as close to title favorites. That obviously doesn't mean you can't make moves now- they need to urgently prepare for the eventual loss of Horford as an impact player, and get ready for the onerous cap issues they'll face starting after next season for the rest of this CBA- but you need to think hard about what you're potentially taking a step back for if you move away from JB.
Talent is very important, but covering skillsets can be more important than the absolute most top end talent, as can depth.
I was noting this in the way of saying... if you have to move of Jaylen (I probably wouldn't yet but he can force your hand in extension discussions) the idea that you need to get back a single player more talented than him is the wrong way to think about it. You could get back a player who gives you 85% of that, but his skillset is a better fit... maybe he's a top end playmaker who isn't as good on pullups or as athletic, maybe he's a good 3pt shooter and elite defender, but less able to attack the hoop off the dribble.
A great example on a lesser end of this is Horford... he's no longer a top talent, but his skillset is essential to this team, we have nobody else who can both guard the bigs TL can't and stretch the floor. If someone came to you today and said... I'll trade you CJ McCollum for Horford... we'd say no. CJ is likely the more talented player at this point in both careers, but his skill fit is much worse.
 

jasail

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I think they have to look to find ways to upgrade their playmaking, shooting, and perimeter defense and lengthen their front court rotation. In an ideal world, I'd trade JB this offseason and use that to retool the roster. However, this is not an ideal world, it is one limited by the leagues financial rules. When you consider this, I can't see how they can move on from JB. I think they retain a core of JT/JB/DWhite and make roster moves focused around Marcus/Malcolm/Grant/TL/Al/Pritchard/Gallo. Those chips and their cap space doesn't leave them a whole lot of room to improve.
 

jablo1312

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Talent is very important, but covering skillsets can be more important than the absolute most top end talent, as can depth.
I was noting this in the way of saying... if you have to move of Jaylen (I probably wouldn't yet but he can force your hand in extension discussions) the idea that you need to get back a single player more talented than him is the wrong way to think about it. You could get back a player who gives you 85% of that, but his skillset is a better fit... maybe he's a top end playmaker who isn't as good on pullups or as athletic, maybe he's a good 3pt shooter and elite defender, but less able to attack the hoop off the dribble.
A great example on a lesser end of this is Horford... he's no longer a top talent, but his skillset is essential to this team, we have nobody else who can both guard the bigs TL can't and stretch the floor. If someone came to you today and said... I'll trade you CJ McCollum for Horford... we'd say no. CJ is likely the more talented player at this point in both careers, but his skill fit is much worse.
Totally agree. There are ways to construct a roster around Tatum with a player/players who aren't quite as talented as Jaylen but who's team overall is better. Last years team had an offense that broke down against several elite defenses in the playoffs. This years team lacked defensive consistency for the 2nd half of the season and playoffs. Finding the perfect balance is difficult, and complementary skillsets are critical to have in order to change your strategy against different opponents (obv the comp here is Draymond & Curry, not comparing them to anyone on the Celtics just noting what they do well individually helps their team become more then the sum of its prat).

If you can find a deal that makes sense and builds the team out like that, I'm not opposed to it. Trading Jaylen b/c he had a bad playoff game just to explore what else is out there isn't the proper way to proceed though, imo.
 

chilidawg

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FWIW, Mike Gorman was on T&R this morning and said the team needs a new PG and C. Said Rob is a 4 and Al is too old, and that Marcus should be a backup 1/2.
Joel Embiid would love to see to old Al go away. How short memories are. Two weeks ago Al sent the MVP home, and now he's too old? JFC.

They do need another big (4 or 5 is a useless designation), because TL is fragile and Al is getting older, but too old, nah. I thought Marcus had one of his best seasons offensively, it's defense where he really dropped off.
 

Cellar-Door

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Joel Embiid would love to see to old Al go away. How short memories are. Two weeks ago Al sent the MVP home, and now he's too old? JFC.

They do need another big (4 or 5 is a useless designation), because TL is fragile and Al is getting older, but too old, nah. I thought Marcus had one of his best seasons offensively, it's defense where he really dropped off.
Yeah, replacement for Al has been a need for a while, but it's not because TL is a 4, it's because he's a tweener. You can't play TL at the 4 unless your 5 is a threat from 3 and can guard everyone from big 3s to big 5s and can hold his own in space occasionally. There are very few guys like that out there.

The step we need from TL this year btw is a jumper. Probably not gonna be taking 3s yet, but his FT% is good enough he should be taking some 12 footers when he's open. And then extending to the 3pt line the next year (he can start working on it now).
 

nighthob

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For the record, what they are saying will be "unpopular" is not trading Jaylen Brown. I get there's a lot of loud voices out there now about dealing him, but in the end, I don't know that running it back would be extremely unpopular if PBS makes some other moves.
My only thought in a Brown deal is that it's going to be driven by the restrictions imposed by the new semi-hard cap. It might happen this offseason if he doesn't sign an extension. But I suspect it does next offseason with one. It's not what I would consider an optimal result.
 

Justthetippett

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They are good enough to win, and have been for two years, they just did not execute and played to their worst tendencies. I hope they spend the off-season focused on cleaning up those issues and putting in place a rockstar coaching staff (with or without Mazzula). I am not in favor of a rehaul unless someone really blows them away for a Brown trade (which seems unlikely).
 

greek_gawd_of_walks

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FWIW, Mike Gorman was on T&R this morning and said the team needs a new PG and C. Said Rob is a 4 and Al is too old, and that Marcus should be a backup 1/2.
The guy at PG that I'd love to find a way to bring in is Monte Morris. Good three point shooter (39% career), 4/.08 assist/ turnovers per game. The problem is how cheap he is. Not sure why Washington would move on from him with two years of control remaining. He's not great defensively and is a bit undersized, but a guy who's a knockdown shooter and takes care of the ball is really attractive to me.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
21,313
Row 14
Brown is not overpaid for the Supermax. He is a top 50 (he is a top 25 player but doesn't matter for the economics of the case) player and is getting the SuperMax before a salary cap bump with the TV renewals. The SuperMax becomes its own asset especially an early cycle SuperMax with the new CBA rules. Only place a SuperMax kills you is if you give to a borderline top 50 played like Tobias Harris or some one who just doesn't play like Kawhi or Irving.

When you look at the new CBA, the most valuable assets for luxury tax teams are SuperMax contracts, potential lottery picks, and then lottery second round picks. Late first round picks have gained value as well but not as much as solid second round pick up.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,735
Brown is not overpaid for the Supermax. He is a top 50 (he is a top 25 player but doesn't matter for the economics of the case) player and is getting the SuperMax before a salary cap bump with the TV renewals. The SuperMax becomes its own asset especially an early cycle SuperMax with the new CBA rules. Only place a SuperMax kills you is if you give to a borderline top 50 played like Tobias Harris or some one who just doesn't play like Kawhi or Irving.

When you look at the new CBA, the most valuable assets for luxury tax teams are SuperMax contracts, potential lottery picks, and then lottery second round picks. Late first round picks have gained value as well but not as much as solid second round pick up.
you'll have to explain this one, regular max contracts are way more valuable because with a few exceptions the players are as good or better but for less money. Now you could argue the "ability" to offer a supermax is a control feature that helps teams (dubious, about half the eligible guys have turned it down) but I'm not seeing the argument that once it's signed having a top 25 player in the league as one of the 12-15 guys in the league on the supermax is better than having a player in the same range on a regular max.
 

8slim

has trust issues
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
26,060
Unreal America
Joel Embiid would love to see to old Al go away. How short memories are. Two weeks ago Al sent the MVP home, and now he's too old? JFC.

They do need another big (4 or 5 is a useless designation), because TL is fragile and Al is getting older, but too old, nah. I thought Marcus had one of his best seasons offensively, it's defense where he really dropped off.
I don’t know what to tell you. Just passing along info from noted uninformed hot take flamethrower Mike Gorman.