Naz is an unrestricted FA this year and is due for a good payday. Slow Mo makes 9 million, so if there even is some sort of S+T possibilities I think that means Grant at 20 million or so. Can't see anyone doing that.
The Celtics Offseason
- Thread starter kazuneko
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I'm guessing the Celtics would much rather just match him if he's that cheap instead of moving him for Slo-Mo.
Part of the value of being deep though is that it both helps keep you healthier/fresher and lets you overcome injuries.
In order to use Grant in a S&T to obtain Kyle Anderson, Grant would have to be on a TL-style deal.
The $20M/yr Grant pipe dream ain't happening
I'd rather have Kyle than Grant as a player & on a shorter deal.
If Boston is going down the Jaylen Brown Super MAX road (which is what we all expect), Grant is a luxury this team won't be able to afford on a multi-year contract. By the end of the season/playoffs, Grant was racking up DNP-CD, and scrub minutes galore. Joe isn't a fan of the Granite state.
Going off the report in The Athletic, Grant has the support of JT and JB, which is nice if you're Grant and your contract status is so up in the air. I think he'll be back and hopefully Mazzulla finds a way to get the best out of him rather than putting him in the dog house, which was a big fail on his part.
Yup. This was Mazzulla’s biggest fault for me. Playing Hauser so much and burying Grant and having neither ready or playingi in the playoffs was bad.
Until it mattered.
Ballhandling was a key defect on the team that lost to the Warriors that was either not improved or even worse this year. I expected Brogdon to be more of a solution to that than he ended up being.
The Celtics' three primary ballhandlers are, essentially, Smart, Tatum, and Brown. I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that a team cannot win a championship like that. If there is an argument for dealing Smart, it is that the Celtics need to put a much better ballhandling/less turnover prone PG on the floor with Tatum and Brown.
Outside of that, there is no reason to move Smart - but if you keep Smart, something else needs to change to try to minimize turnovers against defenses like the playoff Heat.
I'm really getting on team "we need to flip Brown for a scoring guard/ballhandlier". I know everyone is scared about, god forbid, having a guy on the team who's less than 6-4, but at some point you really need that dynamic offense, and that's the best way to get it.
White, Brogdon & Point Tatum is a solid ball-handling rotation if Smart got dealt.
Garland/Allen would be somewhat interesting if the Brown situation gets sticky
I don't really believe in White and Brogdon as #2 guy lead scoring threats, at least to the degree that you need at the highest levels if you don't have Steph or peak LeBron.
Contrast Jokic/Murray with Tatum/Brown (or Tatum/anyone-on-Boston), and you'll see what I mean.
No not after this season. Grant had that chance if he followed up on last year with another strong one but he's pretty clearly at his ceiling with his body fully developed and skillset pretty much where it's at.
Too bad there’s no way to entice OKC with a Jaylen+ for Shai deal. Perfect fit outside of the mediocre 3 point shooting.
If, as rumored, Charlotte really doesn’t want Scoot with the 2 pick ( they see him as a poor fit with Lamelo) and Portland wants to build a winner around Lillard (which would need to happen immediately as Dame is about to turn 33) than a draft day trade of Simons and Scoot for Brown would give the Cs their ball handler of the future and an elite 3point shooter (in Simons). That’s a lot of young talent to add around Tatum - who only turned 25 two months ago, and it’s a ton of value to get for Brown, especially if the other option is giving him the Supermax and clogging up our cap for the foreseeable future. I guess it all depends on how you scout Scoot. If he’s a future top ten player and you can get him on a rookie deal, that’s a big get for Brown as he potentially enters the overpriced stretch of his career.
They'd only move Brown if a #2 scorer was returned (ie Bridges or Bane).
White does everything Marcus does but is better in every way. White would be your starting ball handler in your scenario with Brogdon off the bench (and a lot of Point Tatum throughout)
I just listened to the latest “Winning Plays” podcast with Brian Robb and Ryan Bernardoni and, after listening to Bernardoni talk about the new CBA, I think one of Grant/Brogdon is definitely gone and I wouldn’t be surprised if both were (either moved for picks or players on expiring contracts).
I think the Celtics want to get ahead of clearing out some contracts so they aren’t stuck in a situation next year where they HAVE to move money and probably end up being forced to attach picks to contracts.
I think the Celtics want to get ahead of clearing out some contracts so they aren’t stuck in a situation next year where they HAVE to move money and probably end up being forced to attach picks to contracts.
Thanks. Grant feels expendable. Hopefully, he gets cheap enough that his contract has some trade value.
Agree with Bernardoni and they should push Hauser minutes up.
The stapling of Firsts to contracts next season is a concern.
BUT I'd rather they just keep Malcolm/Smart and run that back next season. Either way, CJM needs to commit to Derrick White as his #3/starting PG (minutes up) if he returns to double BIG. I've kind of had enough of Marcus Smart completely banged up by the playoffs. His defense was pedestrian after the Toronto injury. Smart has a lot of mileage he needs fewer minutes. Horford also needs to be handled better, averaging 30mpg during the regular season was too much.
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The only guys who aren't a hard step back from Jaylen are
Never going to happen - Steph, SGA, Luka, Fox, Brunson
Already did it - Irving
In timeout - Ja Morant
Maybe but it is hard to do - Dame, Trae, LeMelo
Honestly I think the Celtics best bet is to run it back next year, then see Ja's price when he is back from timeout.
What about KAT? Obviously a much different player. Otherwise, the POR approach where they pair JB with Dame and trade us #3 plus others (Simons etc.) is, I guess, at least a conversation. All of these kind of suck though.
EDIT: and not ball handlers...
I assume you're only doing ballhandlers, but I think the following in that cateogry also aren't a "hard step back"
Halliburton
Mitchell (I dislike his game, but he's at or above Jaylen's level)
Jrue
LaMelo
FVV
Ant Edwards
Jrue is too old imo. LaMelo is interesting, given the option for Charlotte to draft Scoot, but that kind of thing rarely actually happens. I don't trust FVV as that guy, given his last season. I'd add Garland.
Oh I wasn't saying we SHOULD trade for any of those, just that they are guys who at least short term wouldn't be a real step back.
I treated the last week after the Game 7 debacle as a Celtics news blackout.
In hindsight, almost all this team’s fault lines were on display as they fizzled out of the playoffs.
Jaylen Brown’s turnoveritis and idiotic decision making
Malcolm Brogdon’s injury proneness
Robert Williams‘ inability to play at 100 percent.
Al Horford’s one trick pony offense, the three pointer, abandoning him
The lack of savvy, patient playmakers against a zone defense, leaving the team vulnerable when cold from three
Poor crunch time basketball, especially at the offensive end
Complacency at home
Tatum, Brown, and Smart have had plenty of time to get over the hump. If MB stayed healthy, and JT didn’t turn his ankle in the opening minute of Game 7, they might have snuck by the Heat, but to me the core of this team needs to change if they’re going to win a title.
I would try to move Smart for a rotation quality big who can stay healthy and score points in the area between the rim and the three point line. If he can bang threes, all the better. Move White into the starting PG role, retain PP as the third PG, and try to develop JDD, who I think could be a spot player next season and real contributor in two seasons when Pritchard prices his was way out of town. Maxing JB looks like the right move, and with Smart give, they would consistently have more reliable deep PG shooting around the Jays.
Just moving Smart and running it back is a minor chanbe, but if they can add a solid veteran wing, like Denver did with Bruce Brown and KCP, that might be enough, along with a more solid coaching staff and their second year coach with more experience, an offseason to prepare, and a training camp to implement changes.
In hindsight, almost all this team’s fault lines were on display as they fizzled out of the playoffs.
Jaylen Brown’s turnoveritis and idiotic decision making
Malcolm Brogdon’s injury proneness
Robert Williams‘ inability to play at 100 percent.
Al Horford’s one trick pony offense, the three pointer, abandoning him
The lack of savvy, patient playmakers against a zone defense, leaving the team vulnerable when cold from three
Poor crunch time basketball, especially at the offensive end
Complacency at home
Tatum, Brown, and Smart have had plenty of time to get over the hump. If MB stayed healthy, and JT didn’t turn his ankle in the opening minute of Game 7, they might have snuck by the Heat, but to me the core of this team needs to change if they’re going to win a title.
I would try to move Smart for a rotation quality big who can stay healthy and score points in the area between the rim and the three point line. If he can bang threes, all the better. Move White into the starting PG role, retain PP as the third PG, and try to develop JDD, who I think could be a spot player next season and real contributor in two seasons when Pritchard prices his was way out of town. Maxing JB looks like the right move, and with Smart give, they would consistently have more reliable deep PG shooting around the Jays.
Just moving Smart and running it back is a minor chanbe, but if they can add a solid veteran wing, like Denver did with Bruce Brown and KCP, that might be enough, along with a more solid coaching staff and their second year coach with more experience, an offseason to prepare, and a training camp to implement changes.
How about JB to Charlotte for Melo Ball, expiring Oubre, and filler (expiring Maledon)?
Move Smart for a big or a package with two back of the rotation players, like Smart to the Nets for Finney-Smith, Cam Thomas, and Sharpe, or Smart to ATL for Collins and a pick, or Bogie and Bey.
Move Smart for a big or a package with two back of the rotation players, like Smart to the Nets for Finney-Smith, Cam Thomas, and Sharpe, or Smart to ATL for Collins and a pick, or Bogie and Bey.
I wouldn't call Jrue or Edwards "scoring guard/ballhandler". Also neither is going to get traded for Brown so I am not sure why you added them. Jru is a ball handler / defender like a rich man's Marcus Smart and Edwards is like a scoring guard / secondary ball handler like a very very rich man's Derrick White.
VanVleet is not a scoring guard. He shot less than 40% from the floor last year. Sure he turns the ball over less than Jaylen up until you watch him clank shot after shot.
If you hated Playoff Jaylen, I can't wait until you see Playoff Donovon. Donovon had more TOs than Jaylen did in the playoffs per game. His shooting regresses a lot in the playoffs as well. Also he is older than Jaylen.
What that leaves Haliburton and LaMelo, both have only played one full season in the NBA and both are still on rookie contracts. LaMelo is once again a turnover machine. Haliburton is quasi healthier and probably the only one I debated keeping off the list because while there is zero chance the Pacer would trade him for Brown he almost is just a half step worse than Brown. If he could consistently give you 65 games at 30 MPP yea I can see it.
Oubre is an unrestricted free agent. I could see something involving LaMelo and Brown, although I doubt either team has any interest.
You have Marcus Smart too highly rated, IMO. BRK wouldn't even think about a Cam Thomas for Smart straight up, nevermind adding those other two. And Maybe a Smart to ATL works, but they are already so heavily invested in a Trae/Young pair, it's hard for me to see them adding another guard to that mix.
As a Celtic fan, I don't care if Oubre actually is under control and was a throw in. Hard pass on him for any team with high expectations.
If Brown's handle issues and Smart's decision-making bother you, boy oh boy are you going to hate The Tsunami Papi. IMO he is where he is at this point in his career because multiple clubs have tried to make use of his ample physical gifts and failed.
On the other hand, if you like players who don't defend and like playing one on one/two/more, Kelly Oubre Jr. is your kind of player.
If Brown's handle issues and Smart's decision-making bother you, boy oh boy are you going to hate The Tsunami Papi. IMO he is where he is at this point in his career because multiple clubs have tried to make use of his ample physical gifts and failed.
On the other hand, if you like players who don't defend and like playing one on one/two/more, Kelly Oubre Jr. is your kind of player.
My mistake for using ESPN trade machine, which is terrible.
Brown and PP to Charlotte for Ball and expiring old friend Gordon Hayward
Charlotte has to consider Ball eventually going the UFA route to find a higher profile franchise. JB can have his own team, and can groom Henderson, who can bring Melo-like excitement to that franchise. Boston would get a young all star that is one of the best playmakers in the league. Then move Smart for a big wing or a SG who complements JT.
I don't think the Celtics trade Brown this offseason (I think it's 50/50 they do one of the 2 following), but if the Celtics make any trade this offseason they're cutting long-term salary.
They really have 2 options:
1. Status quo and cut salary next offseason
2. Start reducing salary this offseason so they don't have to take the hit next offseason when even more teams are looking to reduce.
My guess is if they go 2 it's Brogdon out with less money (or 1 year deal) coming back.
They really have 2 options:
1. Status quo and cut salary next offseason
2. Start reducing salary this offseason so they don't have to take the hit next offseason when even more teams are looking to reduce.
My guess is if they go 2 it's Brogdon out with less money (or 1 year deal) coming back.
I really can’t stress enough just how bad of a fit KAT would be in Boston. The fans would turn on him fairly quickly and I don’t think his personality would be a great fit in a city like Boston.
Also, if anyone thinks Jaylen is a low IQ player then wait until you get a load of KAT. The guy is a foul machine who seems to do the dumbest possible thing at the dumbest possible time.
EDIT: As for the Portland offer, Zach Lowe said that the #3 and Simons wouldn’t be enough for OG Anunoby. Lowe is pretty plugged in and generally doesn’t throw specific offers like that out there unless he definitely knows what he’s talking about. If that’s the case, there is literally 0 chance the Celtics and Blazers match up on a trade. You’d be taking a fairly big step backwards in the next 2-3 years and I think that’s a complete nonstarter
This was Ryan Bernardoni's take (Grant gone + trade Malcolm). Which means they probably keep Pritchard
The CBA isn't finalized, I wonder if there is a chance they move the start date back a year so teams have 2 years to re-configure
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHZ8W4_uR3s
I think the players that might be traded or leave this offseason are Grant, Brogdon, Gallinari and Pritchard. My guess is 2-3 of them are moved (the lone remaining player would be Brogdon or PP IMO).
The C’s would be looking for picks, cheap players or players on expirings.
If my thinking is correct, the Celtics “core” (just can’t think of a better word) next year would be:
Smart, White
The Jays, Hauser
Horford, TimeLord, Muscala.
Ideally, you don’t have to move Brogdon just yet (although with the new CBA, you might have to) and Hauser and Muscala are 9th and 10th in the rotation..
Could PP, Gallinari and a pick (maybe a pick in return for Grant in an S&T), get you a Grant replacement? If it can, is that player cheap enough to allow Brogdon to stay on the team?
The C’s would be looking for picks, cheap players or players on expirings.
If my thinking is correct, the Celtics “core” (just can’t think of a better word) next year would be:
Smart, White
The Jays, Hauser
Horford, TimeLord, Muscala.
Ideally, you don’t have to move Brogdon just yet (although with the new CBA, you might have to) and Hauser and Muscala are 9th and 10th in the rotation..
Could PP, Gallinari and a pick (maybe a pick in return for Grant in an S&T), get you a Grant replacement? If it can, is that player cheap enough to allow Brogdon to stay on the team?
I would hope that is being talked about. It seems like if they don’t give teams more time to lower salary then next year is going to be a complete clusterfuck
No idea if Melo is even remotely a possibility but that’s basically the only one that has me intrigued. If Jaylen forces his way out, I could probably be talked into Simons, #3, and something else.
Simons is a 6'3" (barely in his Doc Martens) SG. It would have to be a lot more.
I think that's the idea, to force the teams over that second apron to give talent away to teams with cap space. So reconfiguring this summer might not be the worst idea.
I think PP value is more around a mid to late 2nd. Gallinari at this point seems a pure salary dump (negative asset). So what unprotected first are you adding to it to bring in a player of value?
I'm going to cross my fingers and hope that PBS doesn't share the sentimentality behind some of the Smart and Brown trades that are being proposed even here.
"Yeah this unit can't get over the hump, keeps flaming out in the conference finals, so let's trade the guys who get to the conference finals every year for guys who don't" is an interesting strategy.
"Yeah this unit can't get over the hump, keeps flaming out in the conference finals, so let's trade the guys who get to the conference finals every year for guys who don't" is an interesting strategy.
Its understandable why people think there need to be wholesale changes after two years in a row of being tantalizingly close. However some of these trade ideas suggest that while most here are well aware of current Celtics player flaws, they aren't as familiar with some trade targets.
Every single player mentioned misses roughly 40-50% of their FGs and roughly 60-70% of their threes. Each of them has holes in their game commensurate with Brown and Smart. And they are all imperfect decision makers.
In short, we should all be hoping the Celtics are relentlessly seeking out the pieces that get them over the hump. But moving bodies because familiarity has bred contempt seems like a poor strategy for a team that is pretty close.
Gallinari is filler. Brad could attach a first to him to land a bench rotational 4/5
If Grant's RFA gets cheap enough he becomes an asset for a team on the cusp (Minnesota is my wild ass guess with Naz/Slo-Mo exits)
PP probably stays if they move Brogdon or Smart
The odds are Jaylen Brown is NOT getting traded:
80% chance Brown gets the Super Max extension
10% he takes a discounted deal
5% JB demands a trade
5% Brad gets an absurd offer
Jimbo, I'd save your finger crossing for other stuff
DBMH can close his eyes/cover his ears.
For the Fake Trade enthusiasts (I'm guilty), here is the latest pipe dream:
Orlando gets: Brown/PP
Boston gets: Franz Wagner/WCJ/Harris
As the worlds captain of the “Bring WCJ to Boston” movement…I have to say, I think the Magic would probably have to add a pick or another player of value to that.Gallinari is filler. Brad could attach a first to him to land a bench rotational 4/5
If Grant's RFA gets cheap enough he becomes an asset for a team on the cusp (Minnesota is my wild ass guess with Naz/Slo-Mo exits)
PP probably stays if they move Brogdon or Smart
The odds are Jaylen Brown is NOT getting traded:
80% chance Brown gets the Super Max extension
10% he takes a discounted deal
5% JB demands a trade
5% Brad gets an absurd offer
Jimbo, I'd save your finger crossing for other stuff
DBMH can close his eyes/cover his ears.
For the Fake Trade enthusiasts (I'm guilty), here is the latest pipe dream:
Orlando gets: Brown/PP
Boston gets: Franz Wagner/WCJ/Harris
Franz/WCJ/Pick 11 seems like the deal
I like your creativity. I’d want a pick or something else of value to do that deal. Big fan of Wagner though and WCJ would be a nice Horford replacement for the long term.Gallinari is filler. Brad could attach a first to him to land a bench rotational 4/5
If Grant's RFA gets cheap enough he becomes an asset for a team on the cusp (Minnesota is my wild ass guess with Naz/Slo-Mo exits)
PP probably stays if they move Brogdon or Smart
The odds are Jaylen Brown is NOT getting traded:
80% chance Brown gets the Super Max extension
10% he takes a discounted deal
5% JB demands a trade
5% Brad gets an absurd offer
Jimbo, I'd save your finger crossing for other stuff
DBMH can close his eyes/cover his ears.
For the Fake Trade enthusiasts (I'm guilty), here is the latest pipe dream:
Orlando gets: Brown/PP
Boston gets: Franz Wagner/WCJ/Harris
Thank you for saying it better than I did.
With that, I'll stop being the fun police.
I mean, there are salary cap reasons at play as well, which have been discussed in depth here. This isn’t just about moving players because fans are pissed. People know the CBA is about to become a real problem for this team.
Yea, you could adjust with picks. Harris is only there to make the money work.
It's a bet on a 21yr old Franzie & 24yr old WCJ improving along CBA/cap considerations. Orlando is positioned to have a Super Max player with Banchero. The Magic would really be cashing in on the Vucevic Heist. The Bulls are doubling down on that mistake.
I don't see Stevens deliberately taking the team's roster 2 steps backwards just because of the new CBA. But I do agree that the new CBA means that the Celtics will be active listeners on the trade market.
In addition to the CBA, there's no guarantee of organic growth from the existing roster. Horford is clearly in his decline phase, gradual as it may be. It's risky to count on TL's health. And Smart seems unlikely to go back to DPOY form, and I'm personally skeptical that the 2024/25 Smart is going to be good enough to be the #3 player on a championship team. Agree that making change for change's sake is risky, but so is running it back with the exact same roster.
In addition to the CBA, there's no guarantee of organic growth from the existing roster. Horford is clearly in his decline phase, gradual as it may be. It's risky to count on TL's health. And Smart seems unlikely to go back to DPOY form, and I'm personally skeptical that the 2024/25 Smart is going to be good enough to be the #3 player on a championship team. Agree that making change for change's sake is risky, but so is running it back with the exact same roster.
Oh yeah. I'm not a "cap is crap" guy. But that's like 10% of where these conversations are coming from.
I don't know if either team would accept this but how about Brogdon/TimeLord for Gary Harris, WCJ, and Cole Anthony?
The Magic get back shooting, an "adult in the room", and a big upside play in TimeLord. Celtics clear a bit of salary this year and Harris is on an expiring. Cole Anthony isn't an ideal PG but he can fill it up and gives the Celtics a bit of a hedge option with PP as the 3rd guard. WCJ isn't as good as Rob when they're both healthy but Carter's a more dependable player as well as being a bit more system malleable than TL.
Magic could also take Dereck Lively at 11 as a TL hedge.
If I'm Orlando I'd say no and wish the Celtics luck. I'm probably overly bullish on both Franzie/WCJ (& so are Orlando probably)
I'm guessing that the NBA forcing this CBA/Hard Cap situation on NBA teams this quickly will lead to Super MAX players being spread across the league instead of concentrated on teams like the Warriors. Expecting the C's to kick the can down the road and keep the JAYs