The Game Goat Thread: AFCCG @ Broncos

[Stitch01]

Passing game is the functional equivalent of a running game. Until it isn't.

I wouldn't ride him to this extent. Great values are to be found in RBs because the position is undervalued. I'd get a tough physical runner or two and build the line.

If they are going to continue on this year's path, they need to build the line and get more receivers.

In any case, build the line.

..

I don't think RB's are really undervalued. You can find them without spending high draft picks or lots of cap dollars, but they aren't really undervalued. Most of them are fairly fungible and the few that aren't that would have been fairly wasted behind the line this year. The interior line hasn't been very good in the running game outside of playing the lol Colts for a couple of years now, hopefully the young guys develop there. Tackle is, to me, the biggest need. Cannon and Fleming aren't really NFL caliber players and Solder and Vollmer aren't going to be around forever. More toys at the skill positions would be nice, but they have enough to win with even average tackle performance.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Have to wonder how aggressive they'll be in free agency with the loss of draft pick. I'd love to get a player that can impact the offense the same way Jabaal Sheard impacted the D this year. If there is the offensive equivalent of JS, go get him.

And yes, I know that is a terribly general post. It's the day after the end of the season, I'll be more specific in a few months.

 

[JimD]

I don't know ... blaming the Patriots offensive line for yesterday's loss feels like blaming your Honda Civic for not being a pickup truck when you buy some furniture at Ikea that comes in a ten-foot long box. This was a patchwork unit trying to do just enough to get the job done, not a group of Pro Bowlers who shat the bed.

Gostkowski deserves some blame for missing a chip shot PAT, but Brady deserves more blame in my opinion for the Miller INT. Yes he was under pressure all afternoon but an All-World QB like Tom should be held to a higher standard in the biggest games.

After going 6-0 in conference championship and Super Bowl games from 2001 to 2004, Belichick and Brady have gone 4-7 in these games since then. I don't want to even think of what the national media narrative would have been if Malcolm Butler hadn't picked off Russell Wilson last February.

 

[Ed Hillel]

In the hypothetical department, had the game gone to OT and the Pats won the toss, it sure would have made for an interesting decision. I think Bill would have kicked again.

 

[Stitch01]

Yeah they won more than their fair share the first four years, lost more than their fair share since. It more shows how narratives about clutch and playoff winners and stuff is sort of stupid more than anything else.

 

[BigSoxFan]

In the hypothetical department, had the game gone to OT and the Pats won the toss, it sure would have made for an interesting decision. I think Bill would have kicked again.

That's my biggest regret from yesterday. I wanted to see OT play out since it would have been so riveting.

 

[lexrageorge]

The record shows that Brady-led teams have gone 10-7 against the elite of the league's best teams. Surprise, that record looks worse if you disregard 60% of the team's victories over that period. If we arbitrarily disregard 4 random losses over that period, their record would look a lot better. But noone ever claimed that basic math skills were required to be a media blowhard.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

A day after...

I was going to jump on board with destroying Cannon in this thread yesterday. I'd say he was a turnstile, but on many of Miller's rushes he actually got beat so badly he wasn't even turned around. More like a swinging door that was left open. He was awful, and a merely poor performance at his position may have been the difference.

During the game I was wondering why DeGuglielmo kept putting Cannon out there, play after play, in the same position, without shaking things up. I have to assume it was because he didn't have a better answer. The problem wasn't just Cannon, it was offensive line depth. I did a half-assed pass through the NFL Transactions list this season to see what OL were traded, and really couldn't come up with any names the Pats missed out on, so it must've just been a value thing -- but OL has to be the priority this off-season.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

I'd like to give the organization a hat tip for not making a big deal or even a peep about the Tablet issue. If that had happened to whiny teams like Pitt or Baltimore (even if they weren't playing the Pats) then those loser coaches would be all over the place screaming about it and making excuses.

The tablets won't be a story because they shouldn't be a story and the Pats won't force the issue. I know they don't "get" anything for acting like adults and it will be forgotten, but I just really wanted to point out that Pitt and Baltimore fucking suck.

 

[Bellhorn]

2007: Yes, Shank and Mazz call that win in San Diego some kind of fluke, lucky win, etc. But Brady was throwing to Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell that season. And why a anyone would casually dismiss a road win against the league's top seed that season is beyond me. Yes, it would have been nice to have beaten Indy. But, if you're going to say that they almost lost to the Chargers, then you need to similarly claim that they almost beat Indy.

Exactly - that SD team was a juggernaut, and beating them on the road should count as one of the classic playoff wins of the BB/TB era. It probably would be remembered very differently if they had held on against Indy and then beaten that crappy Bears team in the SB.

 

[Stitch01]

The record shows that Brady-led teams have gone 10-7 against the elite of the league's best teams. Surprise, that record looks worse if you disregard 60% of the team's victories over that period. If we arbitrarily disregard 4 random losses over that period, their record would look a lot better. But noone ever claimed that basic math skills were required to be a media blowhard.

Yup. Plus if the games went in reverse order the media narrative would be about how Brady could never beat Manning in a big game despite trying to cheat twice before Brady finally overcame his nemesis and went on to win Super Bowls 2 through 4 on the back of stellar defenses.

Narratives are dumb.

 

[loshjott]

Gronk looks to be wide open on the 2 pointer. If Brady throws that ball going right a bit more there is no one in site of Gronk.

I was at peace with this loss until seeing this picture.

Thanks!

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

But that picture also shows:

1. Brady getting harried by two unblocked pass rushers right near him, and
2. The underneath cover guy on Amendola being in Brady's line of sight for that possible pass, and given that Brady was picked off earlier in the game by an underneath cover guy, he may have been reluctant to throw it there.

Really, this pic just underscores how poorly the OL played.

 

[johnmd20]

I was at peace with this loss until seeing this picture.

Thanks!

I'm feeling the same way. Considering the roll out and the hole that Gronk had, I'm surprised Brady didn't go for the biggest guy with the biggest hands. He just missed it and that happens. Just like Butler didn't miss it last year.

 

[jsinger121]

But that picture also shows:

1. Brady getting harried by two unblocked pass rushers right near him, and
2. The underneath cover guy on Amendola being in Brady's line of sight for that possible pass, and given that Brady was picked off earlier in the game by an underneath cover guy, he may have been reluctant to throw it there.

Really, this pic just underscores how poorly the OL played.

If Tom throws a strike to the Broncos "C" its a sure catch.

 

[Van Everyman]

So, question for those who know: did the OL suck? Or did Denver's front 3/4 just play really well? I have a hard time beating the shit out of Cannon and Flemming getting beaten by guys like Miller and Ware (even Buster Olney crapped all over them not wanting to talk to the press) when the Pats had such a patchwork group of guys out there.

In retrospect, I wonder if the two biggest losses of the season were not Lewis or even Solder but Connelly and Wendell.

 

[Devizier]

McDaniels. Why why why was freaking White targeted the MOST when we have Gronk, Edelman, and Amendola on this team?? Infuriating.

Because they were covered. And Brady didn't have the time to get them open.

 

[DJnVa]

Some of those guys suck because they suck. And it was compounded by who they played. There's only so much depth you can have at each position and ours got exposed.

In the end, despite all that, we had a shot.

Perhaps had the refs called the lateral correctly, the whole game would have been different, because Freeney would have scored, Gost likely doesn't miss, and everything changes.

 

[DJnVa]

McDaniels. Why why why was freaking White targeted the MOST when we have Gronk, Edelman, and Amendola on this team?? Infuriating.

You know that when McDaniels sends a play call in there's no directive that Brady has to throw to a certain guy right? Because your post makes it seem like you don't.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If Tom throws a strike to the Broncos "C" its a sure catch.

OK. And how's he gonna do that given the breakdown in the OL you see there?

 

[jsinger121]

OK. And how's he gonna do that given the breakdown in the OL you see there?

Ware is 2 yards from him and the other guy is 3 yards from him. If he sees Gronk he should have been able to put right there at the C.

 

[Peak Oil Can Boyd]

This post has a few more photos of the 2-pt conversion:

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/162742324/patriots-failed-two-point-conversion-brady

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Ware is 2 yards from him and the other guy is 3 yards from him. If he sees Gronk he should have been able to put right there at the C.

Yeah, I'm gonna go with Tom Brady's judgement there over yours, if that's OK.

What I also see in that picture is Edelman slipping underneath his man at the goal line, which Brady might have felt was a more makable throw.

 

[Stitch01]

Yeah, he could have, probably easier to do before taking 25 hits for 60 minutes though and the line did break down.

 

[johnmd20]

OK. And how's he gonna do that given the breakdown in the OL you see there?

I'm not sure you're looking at the picture. Brady threw across his body on the play. If he just threw it at Gronk, running right, it surely had a much better chance. I'm not saying Brady choked, just that there was a good option there that he didn't see because of the OL breakdown. But it was there.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I'm not sure you're looking at the picture. Brady threw across his body on the play. If he just threw it at Gronk, running right, it surely had a much better chance. I'm not saying Brady choked, just that there was a good option there that he didn't see because of the OL breakdown. But it was there.

I suspect he didn't get a clear look at Gronk due to Talib's being on Edelman in the line of sight. But that's just a guess.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

That 22-film screenshot is a gut punch.

 

[genoasalami]

Not going to win many NFL games, especially on the road, with a horrid offensive line, without a legit RB in the backfield, and your QB gets hit 23 times. (and it still came down to a missed 2 point conversion)

 

[ALiveH]

I'm shocked nobody mentioned two uncalled helmet-to-helmet hits by bronco defenders on amendola and the one that concussed white. There were 4 blatant helmet-to-helmet hits on patriot passcatchers or down players and two of them were called (the hits on edelman and bolden). For all the worries about broncos knee-hunting, they ended up head-hunting instead.

 

[soxhop411]

Taiwanese animation treatment

 

[scotian1]

We're not in the business of scripting losses, but this was the least painful loss imaginable in Denver. Some days they are just better than you. Brady, characteristically, is pointing the finger at himself and not throwing the o-line under the bus.

Like BB said in his press conference, when questioned about how he felt about Ghost blaming himself for the loss, almost everyone on the team including himself should feel the same way. That being said as bad as the OL was, Brady did not have his best game and deserves criticism as well.

 

[teddykgb]

I'm shocked nobody mentioned two uncalled helmet-to-helmet hits by bronco defenders on amendola and the one that concussed white. There were 4 blatant helmet-to-helmet hits on patriot passcatchers or down players and two of them were called (the hits on edelman and bolden). For all the worries about broncos knee-hunting, they ended up head-hunting instead.

Most of these were exceptionally violent and the types of hits that draw flags in today's NFL but almost all of them save the one that was called was really a shoulder to helmet hit. I'm not sure that that is better, but really any Patriots fan whining about the refs today is barking up the wrong tree.

 

[j44thor]

This post has a few more photos of the 2-pt conversion:

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/162742324/patriots-failed-two-point-conversion-brady

That was a great breakdown and reminded me of another issue I had with the two pt try. Why line up in a tight formation with a RB next to Brady and play into DEN strength. Had they spread them out Brady would have had a much better chance of figuring out who was covering who. Had the same issue with the 4th and 1 play when they again came out in a tight formation.

Esp with DEN down 2 DB's they should have put Brady in the best position to read the play pre-snap. Instead they line up tight and DEN can line two guys up over Gronk giving the pre-snap appearance that he is going to be doubled. That is probably why Brady never considers him in the play.

 

[DJnVa]

Yeah, the refs could have EASILY let that backwards pass stand as inconclusive. I have gripes with a missed call or two on Gronk, but the issue wasn't the refs.

 

[DourDoerr]

Great photo. Looks like it was a good play call. Gronk's inexplicably open and Edelman is too - although the coverage is tighter and you can see another defender making his way over. You can see why Brady made the pass. Perhaps if his arm was cocked at this moment all is well. Too bad but man this team never quit.

Ghost is #1 goat. 500+ xp's and misses this one. Funny that BB's successful lobbying for extra point attempts to be further back finally bit us in the backside.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Obviously the game would have played out somewhat differently, but those two Brady picks in the second quarter were both pretty awful from a game management perspective. We basically had the Broncos offense in our pocket after the first drive and those two picks handed them a bunch of free points that changed the contours of the game - the first giving the ball in the red zone, which they converted into seven, the second pick didn't directly lead to points but it flipped field position and sort of indirectly helped them get the FG at the end of the half, as otherwise we would have punted and pinned them deep, they probably punt back to us in relatively good field position, and we either drive for points or the half ends.

It is all hypothetical but if we go into halftime down 7-6 I really like our chances in the second half, as I think our offense had a better chance of figuring out some way to move the ball than their offense did.

 

[Captaincoop]

So, question for those who know: did the OL suck? Or did Denver's front 3/4 just play really well? I have a hard time beating the shit out of Cannon and Flemming getting beaten by guys like Miller and Ware (even Buster Olney crapped all over them not wanting to talk to the press) when the Pats had such a patchwork group of guys out there.

In retrospect, I wonder if the two biggest losses of the season were not Lewis or even Solder but Connelly and Wendell.

The offensive line looked the same as it did against Miami and the Jets at the end of the year. Horrid. I am already sick of hearing about how amazing Denver's defense was, so I look forward to seeing them give up 30 to Carolina and lose.

In the post mortem, let's remember that the Pats made a lot of defenses look amazing in the last two months. The offensive line was decimated.

 

[Stitch01]

Obviously the game would have played out somewhat differently, but those two Brady picks in the second quarter were both pretty awful from a game management perspective. We basically had the Broncos offense in our pocket after the first drive and those two picks handed them a bunch of free points that changed the contours of the game - the first giving the ball in the red zone, which they converted into seven, the second pick didn't directly lead to points but it flipped field position and sort of indirectly helped them get the FG at the end of the half, as otherwise we would have punted and pinned them deep, they probably punt back to us in relatively good field position, and we either drive for points or the half ends.

It is all hypothetical but if we go into halftime down 7-6 I really like our chances in the second half, as I think our offense had a better chance of figuring out some way to move the ball than their offense did.

First one was really bad. Second one was bad, but he was getting killed and it didn't cost that much field position. Definitely not Brady's best day for sure.

 

[j44thor]

The offensive line looked the same as it did against Miami and the Jets at the end of the year. Horrid. I am already sick of hearing about how amazing Denver's defense was, so I look forward to seeing them give up 30 to Carolina and lose.

In the post mortem, let's remember that the Pats made a lot of defenses look amazing in the last two months. The offensive line was decimated.

This is true, I think we had a false sense of confidence based on NE OL holding up against an equally banged up KC pass rush. A healthy Houston/Hali and that KC game is probably a lot closer than it turned out.

 

[lexrageorge]

First one was really bad. Second one was bad, but he was getting killed and it didn't cost that much field position. Definitely not Brady's best day for sure.

Yeah, that second pick was not much different than an incomplete pass followed by a punt.

 

[Stitch01]

This is true, I think we had a false sense of confidence based on NE OL holding up against an equally banged up KC pass rush. A healthy Houston/Hali and that KC game is probably a lot closer than it turned out.

KC still didn't have the secondary chops to cover the Pats short passing game, Brady was getting the ball out in like 1.8 seconds. Yesterday he couldn't get the ball out fast to his first option.

 

[Valek123]

KC still didn't have the secondary chops to cover the Pats short passing game, Brady was getting the ball out in like 1.8 seconds. Yesterday he couldn't get the ball out fast to his first option.

I'm not sure he even had 1.8 seconds on a bunch of plays yesterday, I've never seen an NFL QB pancaked so often as he was. This must be what it was like for Texans fans during the Carr years...

 

[Stitch01]

Some plays, no, but he never gets hit 21 times or whatever against KC. Annoying Talib finally made it through a title game.

 

[Captaincoop]

I still can't get over how infuriating it was to watch Cannon yesterday. Guys were getting around him without even using their hands, just flying past him again and again.

Arghhh.

 

[Valek123]

I still can't get over how infuriating it was to watch Cannon yesterday. Guys were getting around him without even using their hands, just flying past him again and again.

One funny(not at the time) comment from our crew watching the game was "when the hell did the Broncos sign 61 to a contract?"

Tough day at the office for Mr. Cannon, but in his defense Von Miller was playing like a man possessed and was effectively timing the snaps and reacting quicker than the linemen. He played a hell of a game, but I kept expecting the gameplan shift to a TE chipping and/or the screen game to take advantage of the bronco's upfield pursuit but never saw the adjustments. Either that were made didn't work or something else but it just seemed we were tentative to make changes.

It was one of the more interesting Patriots games I've ever watched, so many games within the games that didn't create adjustments. Be it partly the technical difficulties, players just being over-run, injured, altitude or a bad chinese order the Pats just seemed a step slow all day. Credit to the Denver D, they played very well yesterday and their TE had a hell of a game when the Patriots clearly defensively schemed to take away the run and the main WR weapons.

Great season, just came up a bit short in many respects. Very happy to see how they responded even in the final minutes on both sides of the ball. Say what you will on individual performances but quitting wasn't part of the deficiency yesterday at anypoint and that says something about the integrity and coaching of this crew. Hats off to a hell of a season.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I did a half-assed pass through the NFL Transactions list this season to see what OL were traded, and really couldn't come up with any names the Pats missed out on, so it must've just been a value thing -- but OL has to be the priority this off-season.

Michael Oher was available . . . .

 

[8slim]

One thing that's making me a little peeved is the talk that the Pats should have kicked a FG at the 6 minute mark because Denver "hadn't done anything" on offense in the 2nd half. Denver actually moved the ball 48 yards in 10 plays on the series just before that possession and kicked a FG to make it an 8 point game. They burned 4:58 on that drive.

The idea that it was some lock that the Pats could force a 3-and-out and get the ball back is misguided. There was evidence from the most recent Broncos drive that they might very well be able to keep possession for several minutes.

I'm not suggesting that kicking a FG there would have been wrong, but it's certainly not cut-and-dried.

 

[DJnVa]

One thing that's making me a little peeved is the talk that the Pats should have kicked a FG at the 6 minute mark because Denver "hadn't done anything" on offense in the 2nd half. Denver actually moved the ball 48 yards in 10 plays on the series just before that possession and kicked a FG to make it an 8 point game. They burned 4:58 on that drive.

That drive consisted of 9 plays for 18 yards and one busted run for 30 on 3rd and short because the entire defense was on the line of scrimmage.

All yards count, but that doesn't really strike me as a drive where they were consistently moving the ball.

Outside of the first Denver drive of the game and THAT ONE RUN by Anderson, Denver put up 131 yards on 55 plays, or 2.4 yards per play.

Denver hadn't done anything on offense. Denver's last 3 scoring drives came on drives totaling 87 yards. NE had more yards on their last 3 drives than Denver had for the last 53 minutes of the game.

 

[ObstructedView]

Yeah, he could have, probably easier to do before taking 25 hits for 60 minutes though and the line did break down.

Plus I'm reasonably sure that Brady didn't have access to the all-22 while he was rolling out and fearing for his life for the umpteenth time in the game.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

But that picture also shows:

1. Brady getting harried by two unblocked pass rushers right near him, and
2. The underneath cover guy on Amendola being in Brady's line of sight for that possible pass, and given that Brady was picked off earlier in the game by an underneath cover guy, he may have been reluctant to throw it there.

Really, this pic just underscores how poorly the OL played.

I just don't think so. That picture simply doesn't show him being harried (it shows two guys who will harry him because he waits, but with Gronk open he didn't have to wait and they weren't on him yet). And while he remains the greatest QB I've ever seen, he blew that play on his own. There were, sadly, dozens of plays that the line was responsible for---that play simply isn't one of them.