The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

SMU_Sox

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What if Mac just got the ball out quicker? He seems to do best with the 5 wide quick game. Of course, all QBs love that.
Could work I think - could have some tight splits too and have guys chip before a route if they were that concerned about pass pro. You can scheme some protection help and honestly 5 wide might see fewer blitzes if Mac can start performing better under pressure. Maybe 11 spread out with the RB in for pass pro? You can spread them out and take deep shots too from time to time. Tua has done that in Miami.

You know what I liked about Josh McDaniels is that he was really good here at maximizing the talent they had and developing good schemes and game-plans. Now no one is perfect but he was damn good at it and had respect across all media outlets including the super nerdy football types. I don't see that so far this year. The learning curve for Matty P and Joe Judge was going to be steep and I thought that through the Baltimore game they were at least flashing positives. Mac was going off for a ton of explosive 30-40+ yard completions vs Baltimore. Even vs GB the running game at least looked good. Then the wheels really came off after the Browns game. Now neither the running or passing game is viable.
 

Bowser

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That's a good thought. I rewatched his highlights against Detroit and Cleveland. He climbed the pocket and completed passes a handful of times against the Lions, less so versus the Browns. But as compared to Mac, he certainly seemed more poised, generally, and less fazed by the rush. Perhaps because he had better protection. Not trying to relitigate the Mac vs. Zappe case, but I think you're right that Zappe was doing something that Mac was not. It wasn't just that he was facing poor defenses (though that was likely part of it, too).
 

Eddie Jurak

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The problem to me is that everything is bad. The line is bad, the play calling is bad, the spacing is bad, and Mac is playing inconsistently. There are so many bad things going on at once it’s hard to know how much of it is on Mac.
When everything is bad, it must be a lot harder to fix specific problems (of which there are many) and see benefits.
 

joe dokes

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Apologies if this is redundant, but a really good explanation from Orlovsky about how Mac's drops are not synching with the depth of WR patterns and how WRs simply aren't ready to receive the ball when Mac's ready to throw. Seems like Offense 101. Not sure why this hasn't been fixed, like, weeks ago.

View: https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1593005822430232578
I could certainly be over my head arguing playing QB with a guy who actually played QB, nor did I watch more than the 1st 2 minutes of him yelling at me, BUT two things jumped out at me to make me say "enough":

1)..that "only guy who was looking who was "only" 2 yards downfield", was downfield enough to get a 1st down on that particular play; and
2) my NFL viewing experience is littered with gushing praise from the color man pointing out how great that throw was because the "QB threw it even before the receiver turned around." Presumably, not *every* play calls for that, but for Orlovsky to harp on that in every clip undermines his credibility, IMO.
 

Cellar-Door

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Orlovsky knows a lot about football, but if he has a weakness it is that once he decides he likes a QB nothing is ever the QBs fault. His Carson Wentz stuff was/is wild.
 

rodderick

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What sucks the most about this season is that to me the biggest value for 2022 was figuring out what we have in Mac and now I feel like no matter the outcome for the team we'll finish the year without having much of a clue about what we have in him. I thought 2021 was his baseline level of performance and was comfortable with that, but in 2022 he's been one of the three worst starters in football. So at the very least it seems like he can't really overcome issues around him and will play down to his environment, which to be fair is most QBs aside from the upper echelon guys. And that's the most charitable interpretation that doesn't lay most of the blame of the offensive struggles on his shoulders.
 

BaseballJones

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What sucks the most about this season is that to me the biggest value for 2022 was figuring out what we have in Mac and now I feel like no matter the outcome for the team we'll finish the year without having much of a clue about what we have in him. I thought 2021 was his baseline level of performance and was comfortable with that, but in 2022 he's been one of the three worst starters in football. So at the very least it seems like he can't really overcome issues around him and will play down to his environment, which to be fair is most QBs aside from the upper echelon guys. And that's the most charitable interpretation that doesn't lay most of the blame of the offensive struggles on his shoulders.
You might very well be right. But there's still a half a season to go and these timing issues could get cleared up by then.

But..... man, this is painful to watch.

I wonder what they did right against Baltimore? Aside from the two bad picks (the last INT was a desperation kind of play), Mac really threw a ton of great passes, at all kinds of depths. They piled up yards (447) and points and could easily - EASILY - have gotten into the mid-30s in terms of points. So clearly they're capable of doing something right on offense in the passing game.
 

lexrageorge

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You might very well be right. But there's still a half a season to go and these timing issues could get cleared up by then.

But..... man, this is painful to watch.

I wonder what they did right against Baltimore? Aside from the two bad picks (the last INT was a desperation kind of play), Mac really threw a ton of great passes, at all kinds of depths. They piled up yards (447) and points and could easily - EASILY - have gotten into the mid-30s in terms of points. So clearly they're capable of doing something right on offense in the passing game.
But even bad offenses occasionally put together such a game over the course of the regular season. Last season's Giants (2nd worst passing offense in 2021) put up 402 passing yards one game; Bears (3rd worst) season high was 310 yards passing. So that one game agains the Ravens could be a glimpse of the offense's potential; or just a random statistical variation that only proves that outliers do exist.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I think it's the injury, guys. A high ankle sprain isn't something that goes away quickly. He got hurt on the very last offensive play of the Baltimore game, and to me it's no coincidence that he's played poorly since then.
 

FL4WL3SS

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The problem with these arguments is that it doesn't explain what happened last season after the Buffalo wind game. It's not just a this season issue and it's not isolated to post-injury.

He was pretty average for the first half of last season and then for whatever reason has been awful since. We probably can't discount that defenses have figured out to disrupt his timing and he can't recover from it.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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What do we mean by the second half of last year? Are we talking from the first Buffalo game onwards? Because if so that's only 5 games. Until the Buffalo game he was putting up very good numbers. Good number through 12 games and mediocre numbers over the last 5 isn't a half and half split.

Just trying to get a handle on the splits people are referring to.
 

FL4WL3SS

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What do we mean by the second half of last year? Are we talking from the first Buffalo game onwards? Because if so that's only 5 games. Until the Buffalo game he was putting up very good numbers. Good number through 12 games and mediocre numbers over the last 5 isn't a half and half split.

Just trying to get a handle on the splits people are referring to.
Fair enough. However 'very good numbers' in the first half is debatable. He put up great completion numbers and didn't turn the ball over, but we all recognize that it was in a simplified offense that didn't require him to stretch the field.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Fair enough. However 'very good numbers' in the first half is debatable. He put up great completion numbers and didn't turn the ball over, but we all recognize that it was in a simplified offense that didn't require him to stretch the field.
I agree. At the same time he also put up 16 TDs and only 8 picks, which for a rookie is very very good. And the team won 7 games in a row in the middle of the season. He wasn't throwing for huge yardage but as a rookie he was leading them to points and wins, even if he wasn't the main weapon.

I'm just trying to get a handle on the true scope of his struggles. He certainly hit a plateau, but I'm beginning to wonder if some of that has been overstated. The last four games of last season weren't his best, but against Indy he threw for 300 yards. Against Jax 227. Miami he threw for 261. The second Buffalo game was very bad though.

This year, he's unquestionably struggled. New OC, new blocking scheme, clearly not comfortable, and his injury messed everything up.
 

lexrageorge

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If it is the injury, hopefully Mac is healthy enough these last 8 games to give us the answer to whether he is the answer or not. But the other issues on the offense are still present and less easily fixed by a healed ankle; if the OL is bad these last 8 games and the WRs still cannot get open, we will unfortunately learn very little.
 

DJnVa

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What do we mean by the second half of last year? Are we talking from the first Buffalo game onwards? Because if so that's only 5 games. Until the Buffalo game he was putting up very good numbers. Good number through 12 games and mediocre numbers over the last 5 isn't a half and half split.

Just trying to get a handle on the splits people are referring to.
You can split it up to find anything you want.

Up until the "wind game": 97.1 QBR
Four games after that: 79.7 QBR
Games after "wind game" excluding Buffalo (who were in stretch of 5 games where they allowed average of 15.4 points/game): 94.4
Entire season except vs. Buffalo: 96.6 QBR

Pats made decision that they needed to make changes to offense, because while that's a good rookie year, they needed more. The guy is struggling with it and had an ankle injury and has had a shaky OL. None of this is surprising. It sucks, yes, but it's not surprising.
 

rodderick

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What do we mean by the second half of last year? Are we talking from the first Buffalo game onwards? Because if so that's only 5 games. Until the Buffalo game he was putting up very good numbers. Good number through 12 games and mediocre numbers over the last 5 isn't a half and half split.

Just trying to get a handle on the splits people are referring to.
He has been the third worst graded QB in football by PFF over his last 13 games and has a passer rating in the 70s and a 1:1 TD/INT ratio over that stretch.
 

ShaneTrot

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I know Mac has had a hard time this year. The line sucking, all the receivers being pretty mediocre except Jacoby, getting hurt, and of course, the coaching staff but he was a first-round pick, he has a decent amount of experience. Would it be too much to ask for him to make a play out of structure, or make a scramble every now and then? He is not slow at his Alabama pro day, he ran 4.72 and 4.68 40 times. He is not a bad athlete. He is a victim of circumstances but he has talent.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think it's the injury, guys. A high ankle sprain isn't something that goes away quickly. He got hurt on the very last offensive play of the Baltimore game, and to me it's no coincidence that he's played poorly since then.
I mean, he played very poorly before that. There are numerous ways to argue for some factors in Mac's poor year, the injury isn't really one of them, and all of them should be balanced by an acknowledgement that he's a significant part of it, his ankle didn't make him make bad decisions.
 

Cellar-Door

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What sucks the most about this season is that to me the biggest value for 2022 was figuring out what we have in Mac and now I feel like no matter the outcome for the team we'll finish the year without having much of a clue about what we have in him. I thought 2021 was his baseline level of performance and was comfortable with that, but in 2022 he's been one of the three worst starters in football. So at the very least it seems like he can't really overcome issues around him and will play down to his environment, which to be fair is most QBs aside from the upper echelon guys. And that's the most charitable interpretation that doesn't lay most of the blame of the offensive struggles on his shoulders.
I think we learned some things about him regardless. One of those is that to me I'm a lot more comfortable saying that Mac isn't a guy who elevates an offense. He's a guy who runs an offense. I compare it to someone like say Fields.... the Bears' line stinks, their pass-catchers are worse than ours, their play design isn't brilliant. But they decided to go with "Go out there and make it happen" after the mini-bye and he's making things happen (despite some significant passing flaws). Mac is a guy who is always going to be pretty heavily dependent on his line, and on the coaches giving him open throws.
 

rodderick

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I think we learned some things about him regardless. One of those is that to me I'm a lot more comfortable saying that Mac isn't a guy who elevates an offense. He's a guy who runs an offense. I compare it to someone like say Fields.... the Bears' line stinks, their pass-catchers are worse than ours, their play design isn't brilliant. But they decided to go with "Go out there and make it happen" after the mini-bye and he's making things happen (despite some significant passing flaws). Mac is a guy who is always going to be pretty heavily dependent on his line, and on the coaches giving him open throws.
Yes, looking at it this way I think you're right. It's more likely by the day that Mac is the kind of guy that'll give you exactly what's to be expected considering the circumstances around him. Though I do wonder if this is passing offense is actually this bad personnel and coaching wise.
 

BaseballJones

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The passing offense personnel isn't bad. Henry is a solid pass-catching TE. Jonnu actually has talent. Parker had a season with 72 receptions, 1202 yds, and 9 touchdowns catching passes from Ryan Fitzpatrick and Josh Rosen. He has ability. Meyers is solid. Bourne had 55 rec, 800 yds, and 5 td last year. He also has ability. Thornton definitely has talent. Agholor isn't Randy Moss obviously, but he has had three seasons with 736 yards receiving or more, catching passes from Carson Wentz and Derek Carr (who aren't awful but aren't exactly Dan Marino either). Rhamondre is a good receiver for a RB.

It's not a receiving corps like the 2001 Rams, but it's not bereft of talent. The line has been the major non-Mac problem on offense.
 

Euclis20

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The passing offense personnel isn't bad. Henry is a solid pass-catching TE. Jonnu actually has talent. Parker had a season with 72 receptions, 1202 yds, and 9 touchdowns catching passes from Ryan Fitzpatrick and Josh Rosen. He has ability. Meyers is solid. Bourne had 55 rec, 800 yds, and 5 td last year. He also has ability. Thornton definitely has talent. Agholor isn't Randy Moss obviously, but he has had three seasons with 736 yards receiving or more, catching passes from Carson Wentz and Derek Carr (who aren't awful but aren't exactly Dan Marino either). Rhamondre is a good receiver for a RB.

It's not a receiving corps like the 2001 Rams, but it's not bereft of talent. The line has been the major non-Mac problem on offense.
+1. Give this team a typical Tom Brady O-line (and Tom Brady) and it's a legit super bowl contender. The offensive skill players (outside of QB) are absolutely not the problem with the offense.
 

rodderick

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The passing offense personnel isn't bad. Henry is a solid pass-catching TE. Jonnu actually has talent. Parker had a season with 72 receptions, 1202 yds, and 9 touchdowns catching passes from Ryan Fitzpatrick and Josh Rosen. He has ability. Meyers is solid. Bourne had 55 rec, 800 yds, and 5 td last year. He also has ability. Thornton definitely has talent. Agholor isn't Randy Moss obviously, but he has had three seasons with 736 yards receiving or more, catching passes from Carson Wentz and Derek Carr (who aren't awful but aren't exactly Dan Marino either). Rhamondre is a good receiver for a RB.

It's not a receiving corps like the 2001 Rams, but it's not bereft of talent. The line has been the major non-Mac problem on offense.
I was including the OL in "personnel". The pass catchers and running backs are more than fine.
 

bunchabums

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It's going to be so disappointing when the post-bye week Mac and offense looks the same as the pre-bye team. For reasons stated above it doesn't feel like the kind of things that can get fixed.
 
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The problem with these arguments is that it doesn't explain what happened last season after the Buffalo wind game. It's not just a this season issue and it's not isolated to post-injury.

He was pretty average for the first half of last season and then for whatever reason has been awful since. We probably can't discount that defenses have figured out to disrupt his timing and he can't recover from it.
I can explain it. They played better teams.
 

DJnVa

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I can explain it. They played better teams.
His only really bad game AFTER the wind game was against Buffalo. He was mediocre in loss to Colts (26/45, 299 yds, 2/2) and pretty good in win over Jax (22/30, 227 yds, 3/0) and the Miami loss (20/30, 261 yds, 1/1), then kinda meh in the playoff game, but I recall many watching that game came away feeling okay about him. The numbers are right there to look it. Post-wind game he played 4 regular season games---really bad against Buffalo (not shocking, they were really fucking good) and then on his season numbers for the other 3 games.

But it was always going to be this way for the guy after the GOAT.
 
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rodderick

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His only really bad game AFTER the wind game was against Buffalo. He was mediocre in loss to Colts (26/45, 299 yds, 2/2) and pretty good in win over Jax (22/30, 227 yds, 3/0) and the Miami loss (20/30, 261 yds, 1/1), then kinda meh in the playoff game, but I recall many watching that game came away feeling okay about him. The numbers are right there to look it. Post-wind game he played 4 regular season games---really bad against Buffalo (not shocking, they were really fucking good) and then on his season numbers for the other 3 games.

But it was always going to be this way for the guy after the GOAT.
See, this is where box score scouting doesn't tell the story. He sucked against the Colts, they couldn't move the ball at all until late in the third quarter and Mac was a big reason they got into a hole. Against the Dolphins again the same story: he threw a pick 6 in their first offensive possession then put points on the board after it was a 27-10 game in the 4th quarter. The playoff game was basically a repeat of that: early turnover, can't get anything going until the score gets out of hand, then puts some points up in garbage time. Those weren't "okay" performances.
 

tims4wins

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See, this is where box score scouting doesn't tell the story. He sucked against the Colts, they couldn't move the ball at all until late in the third quarter and Mac was a big reason they got into a hole. Against the Dolphins again the same story: he threw a pick 6 in their first offensive possession then put points on the board after it was a 27-10 game in the 4th quarter. The playoff game was basically a repeat of that: early turnover, can't get anything going until the score gets out of hand, then puts some points up in garbage time. Those weren't "okay" performances.
That's not really true about the Colts game.

First drive, they picked up a couple first downs, crossed midfield, and then had a nice play to the Indy 33, but Mason was called for ineligible downfield, and the drive stalled.

Second drive, again they picked up a first down, and then on the following 3rd down, Meyers had a bad drop on a deep ball. Not Mac's fault at all.

The Colts blocked that punt for a TD and went up 14-0.

Then the Pats went 3 and out (short pass for 5, run for 3, run for -2 on 3rd and 2).

Then the Pats drove into the red zone, where Mac was picked. That was 100% on Mac.

Was it a great half of football? No. But Mac wasn't really the reason they got into that hole.
 

rodderick

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That's not really true about the Colts game.

First drive, they picked up a couple first downs, crossed midfield, and then had a nice play to the Indy 33, but Mason was called for ineligible downfield, and the drive stalled.

Second drive, again they picked up a first down, and then on the following 3rd down, Meyers had a bad drop on a deep ball. Not Mac's fault at all.

The Colts blocked that punt for a TD and went up 14-0.

Then the Pats went 3 and out (short pass for 5, run for 3, run for -2 on 3rd and 2).

Then the Pats drove into the red zone, where Mac was picked. That was 100% on Mac.

Was it a great half of football? No. But Mac wasn't really the reason they got into that hole.
This is what's frustrating to me. Look at how low the bar is for us to consider that a fine performance. So only interceptions that are no questions asked the fault of the QB can be talked about as the QB not playing well enough for the team to win? The offense sucked that game until they got down big. If Mac wasn't terrible, he sure didn't do enough to keep them in the game.
 

cshea

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They had 4 drives in the first half of that game. They went 10 yards, 12 yards, 9 yards, 60 yards.

It was really bad. It wasn't like the Baltimore game this season where they moved the ball up and down the field all game but shot themselves in the foot with turnovers. It was a horrible offensive half. It wasn't a drop and a penalty away from a good one.
 

Cellar-Door

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That's not really true about the Colts game.

First drive, they picked up a couple first downs, crossed midfield, and then had a nice play to the Indy 33, but Mason was called for ineligible downfield, and the drive stalled.

Second drive, again they picked up a first down, and then on the following 3rd down, Meyers had a bad drop on a deep ball. Not Mac's fault at all.

The Colts blocked that punt for a TD and went up 14-0.

Then the Pats went 3 and out (short pass for 5, run for 3, run for -2 on 3rd and 2).

Then the Pats drove into the red zone, where Mac was picked. That was 100% on Mac.

Was it a great half of football? No. But Mac wasn't really the reason they got into that hole.
I mean, that's a really bad half of football.
I'd also note... drive 1,after the Mason call, Mac took a delay of game off a penalty(taking us from a not great 2nd and 14 near midfield to 2nd and 19 nearer our own 40), then a pretty bad sack (-15 yards so even with a Stevenson 4 yard run in-between we went from Midfield to our own 30) so not only did it kill the drive, we couldn't even flip field position.

That's a bad first half of football... he had 1 drop and 1 5 yard penalty go against him from his teammates... every QB has that in a half.
Mac threw a bad pick and wasnt good on his other drives. If that's the standard for ok QB play there are 70-80 guys in the league who can do that.

He followed that game by being horrific against Buffalo (their D was good... his performance was attrocious, no D in the NFL has been good enough that 14/32, 165 yards 0 TD, 2 INT and a fumble is expected).

Came back with a good game against the Jags

Then MIA... mediocre or worse, 261 yards, 1 TD 1INT (pick 6) and a Fumble lost.

Then obviously we get to a bad playoff game and then this whole season.

Mac had 1 game in that stretch that I would say was an above backup level performance, and that is the Jags game.
 

sezwho

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What sucks the most about this season is that to me the biggest value for 2022 was figuring out what we have in Mac and now I feel like no matter the outcome for the team we'll finish the year without having much of a clue about what we have in him. I thought 2021 was his baseline level of performance and was comfortable with that, but in 2022 he's been one of the three worst starters in football. So at the very least it seems like he can't really overcome issues around him and will play down to his environment, which to be fair is most QBs aside from the upper echelon guys. And that's the most charitable interpretation that doesn't lay most of the blame of the offensive struggles on his shoulders.
Bit of a delayed response, but I also thought that ultimately getting a sense of Macs ability to lead the team in an ongoing way would be clear this season.

Im thinking now that Bill’s primary focus was on getting Patricia and Judge, coaches he believes in, up to speed on offense as part of the long game. I’m hoping the second half shows growth all around, and they can help get Mac back on track, or we really haven’t even learned whether that’s the right path either.
 

tims4wins

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That's all fair. He was definitely part of the loss. No disputing that. I just think context is important.

I hate making theses types of comparisons, but there was kind of a similar story in the 28-3 game in the first half. The output is not always indicative of the performance.

That said, output is the only thing that ultimately matters. But we're trying to project performance going forward.

None of this matters though because everything looks completely different on offense this year, aside from the two Zappe games which basically looked exactly like last year's games when they blew out some teams in the middle of the season.
 

rodderick

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That's all fair. He was definitely part of the loss. No disputing that. I just think context is important.

I hate making theses types of comparisons, but there was kind of a similar story in the 28-3 game in the first half. The output is not always indicative of the performance.

That said, output is the only thing that ultimately matters. But we're trying to project performance going forward.

None of this matters though because everything looks completely different on offense this year, aside from the two Zappe games which basically looked exactly like last year's games when they blew out some teams in the middle of the season.
Sure. And then they went out in the second half and showed how many points they could have put on the board in the first were it not for stupid untimely mistakes killing them. Has Mac had a single come from behind win aside from the one against Davis Mills?
 

Cellar-Door

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It feels like a lot of conversations about Mac's shortcomings end up coming around to people arguing... "well if his supporting cast and coaches made no mistakes at all he'd have looked better" of course that's not the NFL. If his supporting case had made no mistakes and his coaching has been top tier Cody Kessler would have won a bunch of games and been the Browns' starter. Nobody has perfect coaching or teammates who never drop the ball or commit penalties, or allow pressure, that's life in the NFL, and if you're a starting QB you need to overcome some or all of those every game.
 

tims4wins

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Sure. And then they went out in the second half and showed how many points they could have put on the board in the first were it not for stupid untimely mistakes killing them. Has Mac had a single come from behind win aside from the one against Davis Mills?
10-3 against the Jets a few weeks ago is the only other one that comes to mind. I completely agree, a 2 score lead feels insurmountable.
 

Justthetippett

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It feels like a lot of conversations about Mac's shortcomings end up coming around to people arguing... "well if his supporting cast and coaches made no mistakes at all he'd have looked better" of course that's not the NFL. If his supporting case had made no mistakes and his coaching has been top tier Cody Kessler would have won a bunch of games and been the Browns' starter. Nobody has perfect coaching or teammates who never drop the ball or commit penalties, or allow pressure, that's life in the NFL, and if you're a starting QB you need to overcome some or all of those every game.
Exactly. I think the best teams have QBs that are either their best player or one of their best players, and they have to drag their teams to wins on occasion. I don’t think Mac has done that yet. Of course the offense is 11 guys moving at once and if one part of the system is weak then the whole system is, but the QB still has to cover for other deficiencies in order for the team to really compete.
 

sezwho

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It feels like a lot of conversations about Mac's shortcomings end up coming around to people arguing... "well if his supporting cast and coaches made no mistakes at all he'd have looked better" of course that's not the NFL. If his supporting case had made no mistakes and his coaching has been top tier Cody Kessler would have won a bunch of games and been the Browns' starter. Nobody has perfect coaching or teammates who never drop the ball or commit penalties, or allow pressure, that's life in the NFL, and if you're a starting QB you need to overcome some or all of those every game.
I agree with the larger point that great qbs can and do occasionally win with very limited teams (Colts/Luck come to mind) but that’s a SOSH quality straw man :). I’m still optimistic but even I don’t think Mac has that kind of ceiling and needs help.

I’ve been highly critical of his supporting cast, but the standard is not perfect coaching and teammates. How about some O coaches who’ve ever done the job in the lives? How about a line that’s not an atrocity? He was getting killed at the beginning of the season.

I don’t questions the IQ or work ethic of Judge/Patricia, and the skill positions have not been the problem so I think they can stop being the gang that couldn’t shoot straight if they can get on the same page during the bye.
 

Cellar-Door

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I agree with the larger point that great qbs can and do occasionally win with very limited teams (Colts/Luck come to mind) but that’s a SOSH quality straw man :). I’m still optimistic but even I don’t think Mac has that kind of ceiling and needs help.

I’ve been highly critical of his supporting cast, but the standard is not perfect coaching and teammates. How about some O coaches who’ve ever done the job in the lives? How about a line that’s not an atrocity? He was getting killed at the beginning of the season.

I don’t questions the IQ or work ethic of Judge/Patricia, and the skill positions have not been the problem so I think they can stop being the gang that couldn’t shoot straight if they can get on the same page during the bye.
Here's my thing... he was getting killed in part because he struggled to ID pressure, made poor decisions and he bailed on good pockets, the line was better early year than the last couple weeks, they weren't great, but most places that grade line play had them solidly in the mediocre tier not the bad tier before Mac got hurt.
And yeah the coaches are inexperienced, and not great, but they aren't just bumbling incompetents, they drew up plays to win the games he missed (yes bad defenses), they drew up decent plays in a lot of games he did play (We've gone through quite a few plays in this thread and others where Mac just misses or chooses not to throw an open ball that is schemed for him).

Beyond that, we were also mostly talking about late last year. The perfect comment came out of an assessment of the Colts game where somehow a 1st half that was 3 horrific drives and a terrible pick wasn't really his fault because of 1 drop and one 5 yard penalty across 2 separate drives. That kind of minor failure by teammates is expected and an NFL starter has to overcome that.

And it's not really about "great" QBs with limited teams, it's good QBs with mediocre teams. There are 4 levels of QBs to me in the NFL:
1. Great QBs who can turn mediocre teams into real contenders (look for and keep at all costs)
2. Good starters... QBs who can turn mediocre teams into semi-contenders, and above average teams into real contenders, you keep these guys until you can get #1 (or they want too much money)
3. Fringe starters... don't actively screw anything up too much, but don't elevate anything either, these are guys you keep until you find a real QB
4. Garbage... guys who make the team worse, these guys don't elevate and make too many mistakes that kill you, if these guys are in their 1st year or two you give them another, but you're already thinking about moving on.

Mac last year was in category 3, but he was a rookie so there was hope he'd move up to category 2, maybe higher. This year he's flirting with the line between 3 and 4, the team as a whole is worse (mostly line and losing McDaniels) but he's also making more really bad mistakes on top of that.

The thing about Mac isn't that he's terrible, it's more that there aren't really any indications of a category 2 guy so far, and the minor to moderate adversity he faces isn't out of the ordinary for the NFL. Our line isn't the worst in the league, when healthy it probably isn't even close. Our playcalling isn't great, but it's not horrific. The passcatching talent is middle of the pack, he has good RBs, there are worse situations around the league, and most of the QBs there are putting up better results than Mac.
 

SMU_Sox

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He wasn't getting killed to start the season. To start the year, so games 1-3 he was under pressure: 26.1%, the 5th lowest in the NFL and if you don't include all 2 of Case Keenum's snaps, the 4th lowest rate.

57814


He was under more pressure in games 7, 8, and 9 but still 20th out of 38 QBs with 20% of dropbacks.
57821


So yes he has been under more pressure lately especially weeks 8 and 9 where he was 10th in pressure rate which I wrote about in another post.

Ok so what if your theory is he is avoiding pressure by throwing quickly? Well...

Here are weeks 7-9:

57816

His average time to throw of 34 QBs with 20% of dropbacks is 15th fastest. He is 0.05 seconds faster than Mahomes. He is average.

What about weeks 1-3?
2.77 which is 23rd overall of 33 QBs with 20% of dropbacks in that time frame:
57818




Ok how about weeks 1,2,3, 7, 8, 9 for pressure and time to throw?

Time to throw:
57819
25th of 39 QBs with 20% dropbacks in that time frame.

As for pressure rate:

57820
15th of 39.


So overall he is under average duress and has an above average time to throw.

One last stat... this is subjective but Mac to the people who track this has actually done a better job of not being responsible for the sacks against him. I personally agree with this as the line has given up pressures and that's been fairly obvious.

He is 15th of 40 QBs in weeks 1-3 and 7-9:

57822

So of his pressures 96.1% are at least partly responsible from the OL including fucking 39.2% from the turnstile at RT. Mac Himself has only given up 7.8% responsibilities on pressures but unfortunately of those 4 pressures 3 turned into sacks which is not great. So when he does get himself into trouble he usually takes a big L.

The line has been bad weeks 8 and 9 but for the full season he has had decent protection and time to throw.
 

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SMU_Sox

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Just to kind of summarize a bit I do think the line has been bad the last 2 weeks and overall they have been worse vs last year.

If you look at their pass blocking efficiency they've gone backwards from an overall individual player efficiency of 88.4% to 85.0%. Went form 4th overall to 18th overall. Their adjusted sack rate via FO is 26th overall this year, 8.9%. It was 5.4%, 8th overall, last year. This makes sense, right? Not all pressure is equal and Mac is getting sacked at a higher rate of his pressures this year, 24.6%, 11th highest of 39 QBs vs 18.2% last year, 17th highest of 40 QBs.

Run blocking wise their PFF overall line grade went from 79.8 to 61.2 which is a huge drop. I think it's fairly obvious the run blocking has taken a hit.

I think the game plan going into the year with Mac was a more vertical offense but now that the line can't hold up and especially recently with injuries and bad depth the coaching staff is having trouble making adjustments to the offense.
 

sezwho

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I appreciate the rigor @SMU_Sox and I don’t want to be just Pats bleep-posting: I love the team and hold optimism still. Where I separate is that the O line may appear to be just mediocre from analytical distance in aggregate, but the starting QB wasn’t able to finish the game multiple times, including Macs month long (shoulda been more?) injury and a season ender before the half way point.

It’s not like WR, where a great play can overcome a couple drops. They need to be a metronome out there and I think it’s reasonable to assume their performance would take eyes of prize for anyone.
 

SMU_Sox

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I think Mac’s injury is somewhat random and also somewhat due to the lines performance. He’s been sacked at a bad rate and they’ve given up some deadly pressure that guys like him don’t have a prayer to escape from. That definitely increases the odds of getting hurt. But the way he was hit on that play vs Baltimore and how that play developed I’m not sure I’d just put that on the line. We are so used to having a good pass protection line, a QB who got the ball out quick AF, and a scheme to limit pressure that now that the results are average they look so much worse. I think that is a part of it too.
 

sezwho

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I think Mac’s injury is somewhat random and also somewhat due to the lines performance. He’s been sacked at a bad rate and they’ve given up some deadly pressure that guys like him don’t have a prayer to escape from. That definitely increases the odds of getting hurt. But the way he was hit on that play vs Baltimore and how that play developed I’m not sure I’d just put that on the line. We are so used to having a good pass protection line, a QB who got the ball out quick AF, and a scheme to limit pressure that now that the results are average they look so much worse. I think that is a part of it too.
Agree on both.

Im assuming he’s watched it back and it may be comfort to Mac the play he was actually injured on wasn’t due to some egregious line failure. Calais Campbell is just a massive man that has been blowing up plays and players on a timeline measured in decades. Mac will be more comfortable with ongoing sustained protection. Mac has to be on a knife’s edge though: his literal only calling card is quick & quality decision making, by far the best to have if you only have one, but it’s not been on display.

To the bolded, I actually think the quick release cadence enabled the program to save resources by having BB / Scar ID and teach a certain type of skills to a certain type of o-lineman. LT and occasionally LG aside, this has meant not always requiring elite (Stephen Neal excepted: he was elite but still cheap for a while)athletes.
 
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Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Today’s update: The more I watch Mac the less I think he’s the answer. He has zero pocket awareness and his decision making is very slow. He can make some good throws but most of the time he’s not processing the game fast enough.

They’ll stick with him this year and I can see why but I highly doubt he’ll ever win a playoff game. He’s not The Guy.
 

SMU_Sox

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At the same time SJH the last two weeks pass pro, as I said earlier has been bad and it continues today. The OL has been so bad they can’t scheme up anything long and he’s getting sacked at an unholy rate. That and penalties. Two drives the OL has cost them 6 points alone.
 

Cellar-Door

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This game basically told me nothing new... the line was bad, Mac also was bad, I don't think he's a long term solution.