The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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This is the Mac Jones thread.

Redirect it where, to Nick Folk?
Well it got redirected but apparently to another subject.

Back on topic, let's try this. If the Patriots keep winning despite Mac Jones being the "hey-are-you-all-seeing-what-I-am-seeing-about-his-(mechanics/platform/ability to see the field etc etc)-he-is-clearly-not-a-long-term-solution" lightning rod here, how do we all feel? I understand that QB wins are not a thing but team wins are kind of the only thing. If they can win despite him not being the guy, does that change anything? I think it can, especially if its against better competition.
 

radsoxfan

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Mac looked like a bottom 10 QB again, like he has most of the season. No disaster plays and one of his "better games", though damning with faint praise.

The protection wasn't good and a lot of the sacks weren't entirely on him, though the decision making and pocket awareness are just really bad. Lots of panic, and unable to make quick decisions to the open man/get the ball out.

For a guy with limited physical skills and needs mental processing to be a strength...this just isn't going to work.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Well it got redirected but apparently to another subject.

Back on topic, let's try this. If the Patriots keep winning despite Mac Jones being the "hey-are-you-all-seeing-what-I-am-seeing-about-his-(mechanics/platform/ability to see the field etc etc)-he-is-clearly-not-a-long-term-solution" lightning rod here, how do we all feel? I understand that QB wins are not a thing but team wins are kind of the only thing. If they can win despite him not being the guy, does that change anything? I think it can, especially if its against better competition.
If the defense is able to dominate like today sure, but they aren't going to win many games scoring 3 points on offense.
 

Euclis20

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Well it got redirected but apparently to another subject.

Back on topic, let's try this. If the Patriots keep winning despite Mac Jones being the "hey-are-you-all-seeing-what-I-am-seeing-about-his-(mechanics/platform/ability to see the field etc etc)-he-is-clearly-not-a-long-term-solution" lightning rod here, how do we all feel? I understand that QB wins are not a thing but team wins are kind of the only thing. If they can win despite him not being the guy, does that change anything? I think it can, especially if its against better competition.
It's a point in his favor, but shouldn't save him. The Jets are on pace for their best season in a dozen years, think they're happy with Wilson?
 

DJnVa

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Just not sure how we can blame him for the OL sucking. It makes QBs gun shy. When the ball left his hand he averaged 9.1 YPA. That's really good. The crappy OL play blurs everything else--I mean Stevenson averaged 1.7 YPC today. The OL did nothing.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If the defense is able to dominate like today sure, but they aren't going to win many games scoring 3 points on offense.
So you are saying that you don't think a Mac Jones led offense is capable of scoring TDs anymore? That would be terrible if true and I would agree that he isn't a long term solution anywhere.

Again, my question is this. If Jones proves to be an ok game manager and they manage to make some noise in the playoffs, does that change anything? Its a given that if an upgrade were freely available, the Pats should go in that direction. There is no upgrade available (unless you are a Zappe fan of course) and nobody is arguing that Jones is exceeding in his role. But its a fact that Jones will be the QB the rest of the way this year barring injury. It just is.

What happens if the Patriots keep winning despite Jones' poor play? Is it possible that anyone's opinion of him can change?
 

FL4WL3SS

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So you are saying that you don't think a Mac Jones led offense is capable of scoring TDs anymore? That would be terrible if true and I would agree that he isn't a long term solution anywhere.

Again, my question is this. If Jones proves to be an ok game manager and they manage to make some noise in the playoffs, does that change anything? Its a given that if an upgrade were freely available, the Pats should go in that direction. There is no upgrade available (unless you are a Zappe fan of course) and nobody is arguing that Jones is exceeding in his role. But its a fact that Jones will be the QB the rest of the way this year barring injury. It just is.

What happens if the Patriots keep winning despite Jones' poor play? Is it possible that anyone's opinion of him can change?
Best case scenario if this happens is it buys him another season as starter.
 

johnmd20

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It's a point in his favor, but shouldn't save him. The Jets are on pace for their best season in a dozen years, think they're happy with Wilson?
The Jets, like the Pats, have other options. But for the Jets, they have MUCH better options.

Sticking with Zach when you can play White or Flacco is insanity. Mac is not good in that he doesn't help much, but Zach is actively detrimental to the team.
 

8slim

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Well it got redirected but apparently to another subject.

Back on topic, let's try this. If the Patriots keep winning despite Mac Jones being the "hey-are-you-all-seeing-what-I-am-seeing-about-his-(mechanics/platform/ability to see the field etc etc)-he-is-clearly-not-a-long-term-solution" lightning rod here, how do we all feel? I understand that QB wins are not a thing but team wins are kind of the only thing. If they can win despite him not being the guy, does that change anything? I think it can, especially if its against better competition.
This is a strange way of advancing the discussion, IMHO. I mean, if Mac continues to look mediocre-to-poor then people will continue to critique him regardless of how the D carries the team to wins.

And rightfully so.

Personally, I’m still thoroughly undecided about Mac. His OL stinks and I don’t think he’s getting optimal coaching. But at the same time, he also isn’t making a single person on the O better, nor is he doing much more than “not screwing up” as a means of contributing.

It’s a conundrum. And it’s why message boards exist, to talk about this stuff.
 

Cellar-Door

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So you are saying that you don't think a Mac Jones led offense is capable of scoring TDs anymore? That would be terrible if true and I would agree that he isn't a long term solution anywhere.

Again, my question is this. If Jones proves to be an ok game manager and they manage to make some noise in the playoffs, does that change anything? Its a given that if an upgrade were freely available, the Pats should go in that direction. There is no upgrade available (unless you are a Zappe fan of course) and nobody is arguing that Jones is exceeding in his role. But its a fact that Jones will be the QB the rest of the way this year barring injury. It just is.

What happens if the Patriots keep winning despite Jones' poor play? Is it possible that anyone's opinion of him can change?
If that happened, it wouldn't change much for me, in the sense that I'd call him a tier 3 QB, and start him until I could find someone better. I'd basically be looking for QBs in the draft, maybe FA, with the intent of starting Mac until I had that guy.

Right now I see 2 paths for Mac.
1. He continues to have a high TO rate and he's a career backup who gets benched as early as next season.
2. He reigns in the turnover issues, is a game manager and he starts through year 4 of his rookie deal (maybe 5) but doesn't get re-signed, ends up overpaid somewhere and they're looking for a replacement by mid-year 2 (the Cassel/Goff QBs).
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Just not sure how we can blame him for the OL sucking. It makes QBs gun shy. When the ball left his hand he averaged 9.1 YPA. That's really good. The crappy OL play blurs everything else--I mean Stevenson averaged 1.7 YPC today. The OL did nothing.
The OL was not good, but the OL was garbage argument is overplayed, as it is a trope in every game Mac plays, and is always used to defend bad quarterback play. Also, using Stevenson’s YPC and ignoring Damien’s is unfair.
 

tims4wins

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The OL was not good, but the OL was garbage argument is overplayed, as it is a trope in every game Mac plays, and is always used to defend bad quarterback play. Also, using Stevenson’s YPC and ignoring Damien’s is unfair.
Harris had a 22 and 30 yard run. So yes the O line gets some credit for that. His other 6 carries went for 13 yards. Add that to Stevenson’s and you get 21 carries for 39.
 

DJnVa

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Some numbers from Lazar:

The Patriots second-year quarterback's 246 passing yards were the second-most by an opponent against the stingy Jets defense this season. Jones finished with a completion percentage over expected of +9.8, averaging a shade over nine yards per pass attempt.

New England found success with their play-action passing game, with Jones completing seven passes for over 100 yards, including hitting Jakobi Meyers on a downfield option route between the zone defenders for a 20-yard completion here. The Pats also incorporated bootleg actions and ran successful play-action concepts out of their full house formation (more on that later).

The other element of Jones's game that stood out was quicker decisions to get the ball to his check-down options. With the Jets playing soft zone coverages to take away big plays, Mac focused on taking profits underneath the defense and got the ball in his playmakers' hands.
https://www.patriots.com/news/game-observations-eight-takeaways-from-patriots-last-second-win-over-the-jets
 

BaseballJones

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This season, the Jets' pass defense has allowed:

63.2% completion (#10)
200.8 yards per game (#11)
9 touchdowns (#2)
77.2 passer rating (#5)
5.9 yds/att
they have 11 INT (#3)

Against this pass defense, Mac Jones went 23-27 (85.2%), 246 yds, 9.1 y/a, 0 td, 0 int, 104.6 rating. In a strong and swirling wind. In a game where he was pressured constantly.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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This season, the Jets' pass defense has allowed:

63.2% completion (#10)
200.8 yards per game (#11)
9 touchdowns (#2)
77.2 passer rating (#5)
5.9 yds/att
they have 11 INT (#3)

Against this pass defense, Mac Jones went 23-27 (85.2%), 246 yds, 9.1 y/a, 0 td, 0 int, 104.6 rating. In a strong and swirling wind. In a game where he was pressured constantly.

Which sounds and looks pretty good. But he also took 6 sacks, negating about 50 yards, and led the team to 3 points while they punted seven times.

This is the essence of the Mac dilemma. He does some things well but not enough of them to put up consistent points. And his bad plays come in situations that cost the team (took sacks before Folk’s FG missed, the stupendously poor QB sneak on second down, etc).

He’s frustrating to watch. I watched the whole game and not once did I think hewas playing very well. He has a hard time overcoming any sort of negative play.
 

BaseballJones

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Which sounds and looks pretty good. But he also took 6 sacks, negating about 50 yards, and led the team to 3 points while they punted seven times.

This is the essence of the Mac dilemma. He does some things well but not enough of them to put up consistent points. And his bad plays come in situations that cost the team (took sacks before Folk’s FG missed, the stupendously poor QB sneak on second down, etc).

He’s frustrating to watch. I watched the whole game and not once did I think hewas playing very well. He has a hard time overcoming any sort of negative play.
Taking sacks is sometimes on the QB, and sometimes not on the QB. Saying he "took 6 sacks" implies that they were all his fault. I think at least one of them was inexcusable. I actually think two of them were essentially his fault. But not all of them. The Jets have a terrific pass rush. And the Pats' OL was terrible. A combination of poor play, lots of penalties, and lots of injuries.

I actually thought the sneak was a pretty smart idea. He almost got there, but that should have set them up at a minimum to convert the first down, but then there was a terrible play on third down that meant they didn't get it. (and the spot was bad on Mac's sneak...it wasn't a first down but it was within inches - they spotted the ball a full yard short)

I agree with you on the last part - how it FELT. But I'll say this. If the situation was reversed, and the opposing QB went 23-27 for 246 yards and no picks, and that team beat the Patriots, we'd all be so frustrated with how much he chewed up the Pats' pass defense. We'd be talking about the really good plays he made against the Pats to move the ball and at least tilt field position.

But because it's Mac, the vibe in here is that he stunk up the joint.
 

Eddie Jurak

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THis is over the top. Patricia is no genius, and the line is hurt. However... Patricia did okay with Bailey Zappe, and the line was the same for that as many of Mac's failures.

Today the line was quite bad, Mac did nothing to help but didn't hurt, so not one of his worse performances
As to Saint Zappe, he started against bad defenses with multiple injuries - I think Deteroit was down 4 DBs by the time that game ended. He was markedly worse than Mac was today during the last half of football he played. Throughout his time in the lineup he was considerably more turnover prone than Mac has been over the past 3 games.

I wonder if Mac is the first quarterback ever to play turnover free, complete 85% of his passes while averaging 9 yards per attempt, and be called terrible. I'll grant he was worse than the numbers look, but, still. He had a lot of good throws today.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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BJ, I don’t disagree, but the Pats scored 3 offensive points. At some point Mac has to get them into the end zone. When they got near the red zone he played a lot worse. And in the second half when they crossed midfield he played worse.

I said this in the game thread: I don’t think he’s doing himself any favors trying to be Brady pre-snap by moving people around and audibling and calling out defenses. He’s not playing, he’s thinking too much and it’s interfering with his feel for the game.
 

8slim

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BJ, I don’t disagree, but the Pats scored 3 offensive points. At some point Mac has to get them into the end zone. When they got near the red zone he played a lot worse. And in the second half when they crossed midfield he played worse.

I said this in the game thread: I don’t think he’s doing himself any favors trying to be Brady pre-snap by moving people around and audibling and calling out defenses. He’s not playing, he’s thinking too much and it’s interfering with his feel for the game.
In fairness, I can’t recall a series near the red zone where the OL didn’t (a) give up a bull rush sack and (b) take a penalty. Seemed like Mac was working on more than a few 3rd and 17s because of that.
 
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I get that Mac has continued to be under duress, and that there are plenty of reasons not to blame him for the rough sophomore campaign. I get that he did some things well today, there were definitely signs of progress. But I think MOST of the six sacks he gave up, while a sort of sliding scale of blame, were the result of his lack of awareness, a slow trigger to just THROW THE FUCKING BALL AWAY. Many unforgivable sacks today. Just throw it at the feet of a RB.

I know it’s not as easy as this, and you want to avoid making a dumb mistake - coaches in his ear all week, all year - but still. Come on, man. Get rid of it. More than three, probably more than 4 of them, at key moments, important field position gets lost in a low-scoring game. You can’t do that.

edit mistakes
 

Eddie Jurak

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Taking sacks is sometimes on the QB, and sometimes not on the QB. Saying he "took 6 sacks" implies that they were all his fault. I think at least one of them was inexcusable. I actually think two of them were essentially his fault. But not all of them. The Jets have a terrific pass rush. And the Pats' OL was terrible. A combination of poor play, lots of penalties, and lots of injuries.
The opening play of the game, for example, 2 DLs were there with him as he finished his drop.
I actually thought the sneak was a pretty smart idea. He almost got there, but that should have set them up at a minimum to convert the first down, but then there was a terrible play on third down that meant they didn't get it. (and the spot was bad on Mac's sneak...it wasn't a first down but it was within inches - they spotted the ball a full yard short)
A couple of bad spots today, I thought. I agree that sneak was worth a shot, and I wonder how much Mac's ankle is still an issue.

I hope in the offseason they bring in a real OC. I think Mac's problems go way beyond problems with the offense, but those problems surely aren't helping.
 

Cellar-Door

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Which sounds and looks pretty good. But he also took 6 sacks, negating about 50 yards, and led the team to 3 points while they punted seven times.

This is the essence of the Mac dilemma. He does some things well but not enough of them to put up consistent points. And his bad plays come in situations that cost the team (took sacks before Folk’s FG missed, the stupendously poor QB sneak on second down, etc).

He’s frustrating to watch. I watched the whole game and not once did I think hewas playing very well. He has a hard time overcoming any sort of negative play.
So QBR is a dumb stat, but they had him at 20.8, that's probably too low, but I do occasionally like looking at those kinds of things because it at least tries to look at what you did to help your team win, in a way that rating or raw totals doesn't. So it gives you very little credit for getting a bunch of screens and dumpoffs between your own 20 and the opponent 40 (I think quick eyeball about half Mac's yards came on RB and TE screens/dumpoffs).

Mac wasn't terrible, in fact I'd say his 1st half was pretty decent. His 2nd half though was pretty bad. Only 1 drive put them in position for even a FG. He deserves some credit for not throwing the game away, but if the Jets had put up a single TD we probably lose this game.

As to Saint Zappe, he started against bad defenses with multiple injuries - I think Deteroit was down 4 DBs by the time that game ended. He was markedly worse than Mac was today during the last half of football he played. Throughout his time in the lineup he was considerably more turnover prone than Mac has been over the past 3 games.

I wonder if Mac is the first quarterback ever to play turnover free, complete 85% of his passes while averaging 9 yards per attempt, and be called terrible. I'll grant he was worse than the numbers look, but, still. He had a lot of good throws today.
Oh I think Zappe stinks, my point was that people were praising Patricia's playcalling in those games. He didn't suddenly stink again because Mac is in there. And he added a lot of PA which people were calling for, he simplified the reads for Mac, etc.


Overall I don't think Mac was TERRIBLE today... he was backup QB quality,, borderline starter. He didn't lose the game. He also showed nothing particularly different from what he has the last 10+ games, and that's been a guy who if you're lucky gets you what is schemed, if you're not is below that.
 

tims4wins

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Can someone who is able, post video of / break down the 6 sacks?

I just watched the last sack. 9:01 of the 4th. 1st and 10 from their own 44. Play action pass. By the time Mac is looking down field, the DE is around Jonnu. Mac had zero chance.

I didn’t see all 6 sacks live. But at least 2-3 sacks were exactly like this.

I’m neither pro nor anti Mac. I think in some previous games he was definitely responsible for some of the sacks.

I’m not sure how much that was the case today.
 

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I think the major issue right now that his internal clock is slow and he has little feel for the rush and very low pocket awareness.

Running more hurry up and more play action might help free up more space and time, but the essential issue of his not feeling comfortable out there remains.
 

sezwho

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BJ, I don’t disagree, but the Pats scored 3 offensive points. At some point Mac has to get them into the end zone. When they got near the red zone he played a lot worse. And in the second half when they crossed midfield he played worse.

I said this in the game thread: I don’t think he’s doing himself any favors trying to be Brady pre-snap by moving people around and audibling and calling out defenses. He’s not playing, he’s thinking too much and it’s interfering with his feel for the game.
To bolded I agree it wasn’t helpful ultimately, but It may be part of Mac improving his pre snap reads hoping for a tell in the Ds reaction. He indicated was a focus for improvement in bye…(think it was live interview so no link)

Also, maybe not all sacks are equal. As I recall, he got obliterated on the first or second play when they failed to pick up (Strange?…didn’t watch back yet) a pretty basic looking stunt. Not the way to kick off qb confidence rebuild 101.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Another way to look at this...

QB1: 23-27, 246 yards, no TDs, no turnovers, sacked 6 times for 50 yards

QB2: 9-22, 70 yards, no TDs, no turnovers, sacked 4 times for 33 yards.

Is there even a conversation here?
 

IdiotKicker

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Another way to look at this...

QB1: 23-27, 246 yards, no TDs, no turnovers, sacked 6 times for 50 yards

QB2: 9-22, 70 yards, no TDs, no turnovers, sacked 4 times for 33 yards.

Is there even a conversation here?
Yes but it’s incredibly one-sided. Mac had a few bad plays today but didn’t turn the ball over against a good defense. Today doesn’t mean he’s the answer going forward but if the only game I saw of him this year was today’s game, I wouldn’t be calling for his job either.

Basically if this is the best Mac can play, he’s not the guy, but if this is him against a good D in the cold wind with a shit line, I keep rolling him out there.
 

Cellar-Door

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Can someone who is able, post video of / break down the 6 sacks?

I just watched the last sack. 9:01 of the 4th. 1st and 10 from their own 44. Play action pass. By the time Mac is looking down field, the DE is around Jonnu. Mac had zero chance.

I didn’t see all 6 sacks live. But at least 2-3 sacks were exactly like this.

I’m neither pro nor anti Mac. I think in some previous games he was definitely responsible for some of the sacks.

I’m not sure how much that was the case today.
FOund a few:
View: https://twitter.com/7RoundsInHeaven/status/1594420566483673088


That one to me is at least partially probably mostly on Mac, doesn't step up, had 2 guys coming open if he did.

This one:
View: https://twitter.com/MikeGiardi/status/1594416715060084736


3.15 seconds is a while, but 3rd and long lot of long routes only guy he can complete it to is Henry, but he's still looking left, probably should have at least dumped it, but a lot of that is just not having options.

This one:
https://www.nfl.com/videos/bryce-huff-secures-jets-fifth-sack-of-game-on-mac-jones
I have no idea what he's doing with his feet, RT eventually gets blown up, but Mac was not exactly showing great pocket presence.


FAKE EDIT-
Okay, found a video of them all, not going to erase above but here it is:
https://www.nfl.com/videos/every-jets-sack-in-6-sack-game-week-11

Sack 1- not on Mac at all, quick throws all covered, jailbreak so he eats it.
Sack 2- some on Mac, he doesn't feel it, then looks right at the rusher and seems unsure what to do, doesn't run and doesn't get rid of it.
Sack 3- addressed above
Sack 4- addressed above
Sack 5- addressed above
Sack 6- the one you mentioned.

So I'd say some were all or partially his fault, some were ones he can't do much about.
Also, part of it is that he has no real mobility at all, and his awareness (pre and post snap) isn't that great. Non-mobile QBs are kind of a dying breed, and those that are left are really good at sensing/identifying pressure and sliding away or getting rid of it. Mac isn't there yet (maybe never will be).
Edit- and of course thinking about Mac long term this is something to watch, not being mobile much like not having a great arm limits you in more than just runs, it lets defenses play you differently, and it means you are much more at the mercy of your O-line. If we had say Fields (not any better as a passer)... he turns a couple of those sacks in 1st down runs (also the Jets probably rush fewer guys much of the time).

Another way to look at this...

QB1: 23-27, 246 yards, no TDs, no turnovers, sacked 6 times for 50 yards

QB2: 9-22, 70 yards, no TDs, no turnovers, sacked 4 times for 33 yards.

Is there even a conversation here?
I agree, we should not trade for Zach Wilson, glad you cleared that up.
 

SMU_Sox

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I think from memory 2/6 sacks were on him or partially on him. That’s not great obviously but I think he’s done a better job vs pressure this year. When you compare him to other QBs he has been better at not taking sacks that are his fault this year Vs other QBs. He could be better at it but remember we’re going from the GOAT at that skill to Mac. We can actually measure this btw. sometime on Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday I’ll update it when the games are all logged and counted.
 

8slim

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Another way to look at this...

QB1: 23-27, 246 yards, no TDs, no turnovers, sacked 6 times for 50 yards

QB2: 9-22, 70 yards, no TDs, no turnovers, sacked 4 times for 33 yards.

Is there even a conversation here?
Mac is definitely better than a guy who’s fan base wants to dump in a marsh near their home stadium.
 

BaseballJones

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BJ, I don’t disagree, but the Pats scored 3 offensive points. At some point Mac has to get them into the end zone. When they got near the red zone he played a lot worse. And in the second half when they crossed midfield he played worse.

I said this in the game thread: I don’t think he’s doing himself any favors trying to be Brady pre-snap by moving people around and audibling and calling out defenses. He’s not playing, he’s thinking too much and it’s interfering with his feel for the game.
I agree. Three points is three points. But....

Jonnu could have scored had he not fumbled. That was a nice play and Jonnu had a great lane to the end zone. Just one guy to beat and he's a really good runner with the ball. The fumble was mind-boggling. Just...popped out of his hands as he transitioned it from one hand to the other. Folk also missed two field goals that he normally makes. I know the wind was an issue obviously, but that's 4 points for the lost TD and 6 points for the two missed FGs. They *should* have had probably 13 points on offense. Which obviously isn't much, and it's not like they were the '07 Pats out there.

The penalties weren't on him.

The FG drive...Jonnu could have scored but fumbled. Ok. After that, there's a 5-yard illegal formation penalty. Not on Mac, but it puts him in a hole. Then, on 3rd and 9, Mac hits Bourne who comes up JUSTSHORT of the first down. They think about going for it but change their mind and then kick the FG. Six inches and Bourne has a first down and the drive is alive.

Missed FG drive...Mac gets them to the 7 yard line, facing 3rd and 2. Mac scrambles for the first down, but it's called back due to a holding penalty on Cajuste. Instead of 1st and goal from the 4, it's now 3rd and 12 from the 17. The holding wasn't on Mac. But the next play was. He took a terrible sack at that point that pushed them back to the 26, and Folk doinked the FG off the crossbar. If not for the hold, they could have had a TD there.

Next missed FG drive...The Pats have 1st and 10 from the Jet 22. Then a sack (can't remember if that one was on Mac) and a holding penalty on Ferentz (who was in there due to Andrews' injury) pushed them back to the Jet 39. Mac got 14 yards of that back, but the 43-yard attempt was wide left. That's another 3 points they should have had.

On the turnover on downs...They got to the Jet 37, and then successive run plays got -3 and 4 yards, setting up 4th and 3. They should have punted there, so this isn't much of a missed scoring opportunity, but it ended up impacting field position. They went for it on 4th down and got nothing on another run.

So some of this is on Mac, of course. No question about it. Some of it is NOT on Mac, however. The fumble by Jonnu. The penalties. The missed FGs. The runs that went backward or got stuffed. Those aren't on Mac.
 

Cellar-Door

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I agree. Three points is three points. But....

Jonnu could have scored had he not fumbled. That was a nice play and Jonnu had a great lane to the end zone. Just one guy to beat and he's a really good runner with the ball. The fumble was mind-boggling. Just...popped out of his hands as he transitioned it from one hand to the other. Folk also missed two field goals that he normally makes. I know the wind was an issue obviously, but that's 4 points for the lost TD and 6 points for the two missed FGs. They *should* have had probably 13 points on offense. Which obviously isn't much, and it's not like they were the '07 Pats out there.

The penalties weren't on him.

The FG drive...Jonnu could have scored but fumbled. Ok. After that, there's a 5-yard illegal formation penalty. Not on Mac, but it puts him in a hole. Then, on 3rd and 9, Mac hits Bourne who comes up JUSTSHORT of the first down. They think about going for it but change their mind and then kick the FG. Six inches and Bourne has a first down and the drive is alive.

Missed FG drive...Mac gets them to the 7 yard line, facing 3rd and 2. Mac scrambles for the first down, but it's called back due to a holding penalty on Cajuste. Instead of 1st and goal from the 4, it's now 3rd and 12 from the 17. The holding wasn't on Mac. But the next play was. He took a terrible sack at that point that pushed them back to the 26, and Folk doinked the FG off the crossbar. If not for the hold, they could have had a TD there.

Next missed FG drive...The Pats have 1st and 10 from the Jet 22. Then a sack (can't remember if that one was on Mac) and a holding penalty on Ferentz (who was in there due to Andrews' injury) pushed them back to the Jet 39. Mac got 14 yards of that back, but the 43-yard attempt was wide left. That's another 3 points they should have had.

On the turnover on downs...They got to the Jet 37, and then successive run plays got -3 and 4 yards, setting up 4th and 3. They should have punted there, so this isn't much of a missed scoring opportunity, but it ended up impacting field position. They went for it on 4th down and got nothing on another run.

So some of this is on Mac, of course. No question about it. Some of it is NOT on Mac, however. The fumble by Jonnu. The penalties. The missed FGs. The runs that went backward or got stuffed. Those aren't on Mac.
This just cycles back to what we were talking about before the game.... Can Mac overcome even a little adversity and create positive QB value. Mac was not catastrophic today, he was better than he has been in some other games (in part because they had him on training wheels), but where was the positive value. Where was the play that a moderately competent backup couldn't make. I mean... those are the 4 BEST drives of 11 and all of them stalled out.
 

BaseballJones

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Well, the positive value was completing 23 of 27 passes for 246 yards, and for much of the game helping to keep the field tilted in the Pats' favor. Here was the starting field position for each team:

NE: 25, 26, 20, 30, 14, 28, 15, 44, 28, 45, 34
NY: 25, 23, 27, 34, 42 (half), 34, 33, 5, 36, 18, 20, 20

Those drives in the second half where the Jets started at their 5, 36, 18, 20, and 20 were all key. The 34 was from the kickoff, so Mac had nothing to do with it. The 33 was when Folk missed a FG after Mac had gotten them into scoring position. The 5 came after the Pats got the ball on their own 15 and Mac moved them to their own 49 before punting. That changed field position dramatically in NE's favor. The 36 came after Mac moved them to the Jet 36 and they failed on 4th down when they should have punted. The 18 came after the Pats had the ball on their 28 and got to their 43, which helped change field position a little.

So it wasn't CRAZY much, but it was SOMETHING. In a massive defensive struggle, not turning it over, creating a lot of positive plays, and helping alter field position...those are all positive things he did to help the team today.
 

Auger34

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Let's save some pixels and Nip's server. If you were uncertain on Mac coming into this game, you are uncertain on Mac after this game.

If you are one of the half-dozen or so folks in this thread who feel like we are irrationally putting any hope that Jones can be anything other than a holder of clip-boards and you need to keep selling that here, nothing has changed. He is still not the guy.

I mean we can all post the same posts over and over again but BB/Patricia/Judge are too busy cooking up baby offenses to read this thread and Mac would have to close the browser three seconds into reading so...

Nothing has changed.
Here I thought that Belichick and the staff read these threads and would make decisions off of them. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone posts here at all if the coaching staff doesn’t read it!
 

Cellar-Door

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Well, the positive value was completing 23 of 27 passes for 246 yards, and for much of the game helping to keep the field tilted in the Pats' favor. Here was the starting field position for each team:

NE: 25, 26, 20, 30, 14, 28, 15, 44, 28, 45, 34
NY: 25, 23, 27, 34, 42 (half), 34, 33, 5, 36, 18, 20, 20

Those drives in the second half where the Jets started at their 5, 36, 18, 20, and 20 were all key. The 34 was from the kickoff, so Mac had nothing to do with it. The 33 was when Folk missed a FG after Mac had gotten them into scoring position. The 5 came after the Pats got the ball on their own 15 and Mac moved them to their own 49 before punting. That changed field position dramatically in NE's favor. The 36 came after Mac moved them to the Jet 36 and they failed on 4th down when they should have punted. The 18 came after the Pats had the ball on their 28 and got to their 43, which helped change field position a little.

So it wasn't CRAZY much, but it was SOMETHING. In a massive defensive struggle, not turning it over, creating a lot of positive plays, and helping alter field position...those are all positive things he did to help the team today.
I mean, are those above replacement level was the point, where is the value you get by having MAC JONES at QB versus what did the offense do.
I mean, on the 1st drive of the 2nd half, the Patriots gained 47 yards, 30 of it on a Harris run (15 on a Harris screen), what positive value did he bring?,
drive 2 was 34 yards, it had 2 decent pass plays (1 I think was a dumpoff but can't remember)
drive 3 20 yards... all runs,
drive 4 15 yards, only pass was a screen,
drive 5 was 3 yards,
drive 6 was 5 yards.
I mean, was there really anything there that you couldn't do with just about any QB? That's what I mean by positive value. You can't grade positive value in a QB as "didn't get zero yards" or "didn't turn it over" those are negatives. Positive play is "did you get more value from this QB than you would have from any other competent QB".
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Here I thought that Belichick and the staff read these threads and would make decisions off of them. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone posts here at all if the coaching staff doesn’t read it!
I understand the pushback but my post was not directed at you or anyone in particular. It was an appeal to discuss performance versus predictions of the future based on ever changing data.

The discussion we're having about performance is good and interesting. Talking about how its all going to turn out really isn't because nobody knows, even if they tell us over and over.

Back to Mac's play, my concerns are similar to others about his pocket presence and ability to create when things are breaking down. He simply hasn't shown much growth on that front though my eyes are untrained and he is probably still limited with his ankle. I hold out hope that he starts to display some more guile back there on a consistent basis but we haven't seen it.
 

Jimbodandy

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23/27 246 with two fill-in lineman and wind so bad that even Nick Folk couldn't kick pretty reasonable fieldgoals. I'm not sure what Mac has to do to get a pat on the back around here, but clearly that ain't it.
 

Justthetippett

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Aug 9, 2015
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23/27 246 with two fill-in lineman and wind so bad that even Nick Folk couldn't kick pretty reasonable fieldgoals. I'm not sure what Mac has to do to get a pat on the back around here, but clearly that ain't it.
If he’d managed more than three points (or even nine, although I think the difficulty of the second missed field goal falls partly on Mac), then I think the assessment would be a little more kind.
 

Rico Guapo

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FOund a few:
View: https://twitter.com/7RoundsInHeaven/status/1594420566483673088


That one to me is at least partially probably mostly on Mac, doesn't step up, had 2 guys coming open if he did.

This one:
View: https://twitter.com/MikeGiardi/status/1594416715060084736
First play he tries to step up into the pocket but both tackles got beat so badly that he doesn't have time to do so.

Second clip the entire line loses its individual battles almost immediately and he has nowhere to go.

Your expectations for Jones are incredibly unrealistic given how awful the OL is.
 

Cellar-Door

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First play he tries to step up into the pocket but both tackles got beat so badly that he doesn't have time to do so.

Second clip the entire line loses its individual battles almost immediately and he has nowhere to go.

Your expectations for Jones are incredibly unrealistic given how awful the OL is.
On the first one I agree with the original tweeter, it's not all his fault but if both tackles push their guys back, if he steps up earlier he has a better chance. If I were crediting blame he gets maybe 25%?

On the 2nd, it's over 3 seconds and he could go to Henry (or dump it at Stevenson's back/feet). It's a screwed play in terms of picking up the 1sr on 3rd and long, but over 3 seconds is not beat immediately in the NFL, that ball needs to come out in that situation even if it's just ditching it to make a shorter FG.

Neither is all his fault, both have significant faults from the line, but also in both cases he doesn't help himself or the line. In particular the 2nd one is a lack of awareness... he gets so concerned about a potential 1st he forgets that an incompletion is the 2nd best thing he can do there.

I don't know if I expect him to make the right play on both of those, but there are ways he can handle pressure better and he consistently has not shown good awareness on these.
 

FL4WL3SS

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23/27 246 with two fill-in lineman and wind so bad that even Nick Folk couldn't kick pretty reasonable fieldgoals. I'm not sure what Mac has to do to get a pat on the back around here, but clearly that ain't it.
In a season where he hasn't had a single good game, why should he get the benefit of the doubt? That's the thing that's absolutely killing me about these conversations. It's not as though he's been even average and we can say "yeah just a rough game where he was able to manage the game but not put up any points, it happens". This is literally the peak performance of the season and you want us to pat him on the back?

The point is, if this is his pat on the back game, we're fucked.
 

ponch73

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I think I'm on record as viewing Mac as Tony Eason 2.0, but it's hard for me to beat him up too much for a game where he had a Zappe-like 85% completion percentage and 9.0 yards per attempt. I appreciate the frustration about his pocket presence and proclivity for taking sacks, but I suspect that he made a conscious decision to take sacks instead of risking costly interceptions against a ball-hawking secondary (perhaps at the urging of the coaching staff).

Case in point, on the first play from scrimmage, he sees Henry in the middle of the field, but eats the ball and takes the sack because he's worried about Bryce Hall jumping the route. Perhaps he could have dumped the ball off to Harris in the flat, but Harris hasn't really wrapped himself in glory as a pass-catcher this season.

On the third play in the second possession (3rd and 2), he maintains his composure while getting blitzed and hits Tyquan Thornton in the hands for what should be a first down, but Thornton drops it.

On the third possession, perhaps we could have gone for it on 4th and 1 at the NYJ 6 instead of kicking a field goal.

On the fourth possession, Mac deserved to come away with at least 3 points. That's on Folk, not him.

On the fifth possession, the Patriots are just trying to force the Jets to burn timeouts.

On the sixth possession, Mac deserved to come away with at least 3 points. Again, that's on Folk, not him.

On the seventh possession, Mac moved the team upfield, but couldn't avoid a sack on 3rd and 10. It happens.

On the eighth possession, the play-calling on 3rd and 7 and 4th and 3 were absolutely abysmal. That's not on Mac, but on Patricia.

On the ninth possession, Mac did well to avoid pressure on 3rd and long, but sloppy footwork caused him to miss Meyers for the first down. And Mac knew it.

On the tenth possession, the Jets D outplayed the o-line, putting the Pats in difficult 2nd and 3rd and longs. Doesn't really feel like that's on Mac.

I didn't see the eleventh possession, so I can't speak to Mac's play.

Honestly, it feels like there's some good stuff for Mac to build on from this game. I don't think he's the long-term answer at QB, but I think bad luck had much more to do with the Pats only scoring 3 points on offense than Mac's play, which seemed pretty decent against a stout defense.
 

riboflav

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Which (available or possibly available) offensive coordinator would SOSH like to see work with Mac in 2023?
This thread has some hysteria. But to answer your question the obvious answer is Josh. That said, it's very unlikely BB is going to move away from Matt and Joe in the offseason and just reinstate Josh assuming the Raiders end up like 5-12 and he's fired. BB is not going to bring in Reich.
 

rodderick

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It's very easy to be Mac Jones because when you have a tragic box score against Baltimore people will say you have to disregard that and look at all the big time throws he made and how he was asked to go down field so often which of course will lead to turnovers. Now when he makes zero plays against the Jets and plays the safe kind of ball they did in 2021 that precipitated the schematic change in the first place, it's all about how pretty his box score looks. The bar is super low for a second year first round QB for some reason. He wasn't awful or anything yesterday, but this can't be the standard for what's considered a good game.
 

Eddie Jurak

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On the first one I agree with the original tweeter, it's not all his fault but if both tackles push their guys back, if he steps up earlier he has a better chance. If I were crediting blame he gets maybe 25%?
Of couirse, if he stepped up too soon on a play where the tackles won their battels the talk would be Mac's happy feet, not willing to stand in the pocket, etc.
It's very easy to be Mac Jones because when you have a tragic box score against Baltimore people will say you have to disregard that and look at all the big time throws he made and how he was asked to go down field so often which of course will lead to turnovers. Now when he makes zero plays against the Jets and plays the safe kind of ball they did in 2021 that precipitated the schematic change in the first place, it's all about how pretty his box score looks. The bar is super low for a second year first round QB for some reason. He wasn't awful or anything yesterday, but this can't be the standard for what's considered a good game.
That argument can be turned around. At the beginning of the year people were (rightly) killing him for all of the turnovers (5 INTs and a lost fumble in 3 games). Now that he's not turning the ball over, Mac's haters view turnovers as irrelevant.
 
Of couirse, if he stepped up too soon on a play where the tackles won their battels the talk would be Mac's happy feet, not willing to stand in the pocket, etc.

That argument can be turned around. At the beginning of the year people were (rightly) killing him for all of the turnovers (5 INTs and a lost fumble in 3 games). Now that he's not turning the ball over, Mac's haters view turnovers as irrelevant.
EJ is right here. On the plays where he actually threw the ball, I don't know what more you can reasonably want. He was accurate and safe, in non-ideal conditions. None of those awful throws & decisions we saw earlier in the season. Do people really have complaints about those 27 passes? I mean, sure, he didn't make any huge plays and they weren't wildly exciting but if you offered me that every time from my QB I would be fine with it. Could he be better? Sure. He could be Tom Brady. Is it reasonable to EXPECT better? I don't think so.

So the problem is really the sacks, and these weren't good, but not all of that is on him.

I thought Mac was OK overall in this game, and for me it was clearly a step in the right direction from his earlier performances this year. It's easy to see what a bad NFL QB looks like - Wilson demonstrated that. Mac showed us what an adequate QB looks like. Obviously we'd all like more than adequate, but for now I'm just happy that we didn't have the other guy.

[The people obsessing over the 3 points thing are way too focused on outcomes v process IMO]
 

wilked

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I think I'm on record as viewing Mac as Tony Eason 2.0, but it's hard for me to beat him up too much for a game where he had a Zappe-like 85% completion percentage and 9.0 yards per attempt. I appreciate the frustration about his pocket presence and proclivity for taking sacks, but I suspect that he made a conscious decision to take sacks instead of risking costly interceptions against a ball-hawking secondary (perhaps at the urging of the coaching staff).

Case in point, on the first play from scrimmage, he sees Henry in the middle of the field, but eats the ball and takes the sack because he's worried about Bryce Hall jumping the route. Perhaps he could have dumped the ball off to Harris in the flat, but Harris hasn't really wrapped himself in glory as a pass-catcher this season.

On the third play in the second possession (3rd and 2), he maintains his composure while getting blitzed and hits Tyquan Thornton in the hands for what should be a first down, but Thornton drops it.

On the third possession, perhaps we could have gone for it on 4th and 1 at the NYJ 6 instead of kicking a field goal.

On the fourth possession, Mac deserved to come away with at least 3 points. That's on Folk, not him.

On the fifth possession, the Patriots are just trying to force the Jets to burn timeouts.

On the sixth possession, Mac deserved to come away with at least 3 points. Again, that's on Folk, not him.

On the seventh possession, Mac moved the team upfield, but couldn't avoid a sack on 3rd and 10. It happens.

On the eighth possession, the play-calling on 3rd and 7 and 4th and 3 were absolutely abysmal. That's not on Mac, but on Patricia.

On the ninth possession, Mac did well to avoid pressure on 3rd and long, but sloppy footwork caused him to miss Meyers for the first down. And Mac knew it.

On the tenth possession, the Jets D outplayed the o-line, putting the Pats in difficult 2nd and 3rd and longs. Doesn't really feel like that's on Mac.

I didn't see the eleventh possession, so I can't speak to Mac's play.

Honestly, it feels like there's some good stuff for Mac to build on from this game. I don't think he's the long-term answer at QB, but I think bad luck had much more to do with the Pats only scoring 3 points on offense than Mac's play, which seemed pretty decent against a stout defense.
Good summary, just a note that the second missed Folk FG was made 7ish yards harder because Max took a sack there. They had the FG in their pocket, you have to be willing to throw it away and ensure you don’t get sacked. He held it too long there and therefore shoulders a good bit of the blame on the miss