I am not saying this applies to Bill, but coaches are also wrong. Sports history is full of coaching changes where a a guy who was on ther bench is played by the new coach and is better than the guys he sat behind.
The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
- Start date
Isn't one of the hallmarks of a good cook that they can make something out of scraps and leftovers?
I'm saying this not to gamethread, but actually because I think the metaphor is wrong. Great NFL quarterbacks consistently elevate players.
BB did allude to changing things up on his presser but I took that to mean they’d roll back the complexity of the offense a bit.
Which makes zero sense to me. The problem has been that our O is too complicated? How!? And for whom?!
Are the blocking schemes too complex for an OL that is heavy on vets? Are the route trees too complex for a WR and TE crew that is almost all vets?
Are we dumbing down the O for Mac? The guy who's missing badly on his first reads half the time?
Seems like simplifying the O means drawing plays in the dirt at this point.
I expect them to go back to the type of offense they installed in December 2018. A grind it out, run based offense. I would expect to see a lot more Pharaoh Brown, less Gesicki and a fullback added to the roster this week.
That probably works better when you've got Tom Brady and Rob Gronkowski on the field.
That grind it out run based on offense threw their way to a 35-7 lead against the Chargers and then threw their win to beat the Chiefs in a dogfight when every drive was do or die. Also threw their way into 10 4th quarter points in the Super Bowl when both offenses were bogged down. I agree they should take a run first approach, but that offense passed the ball extremely well to deliver them a title.
This is generally a good idea for the next game anyhow. The Raiders' run D is fairly bad (134 YPG, ranked 26th overall), and while the Pats' run game had horrible numbers vs. NO, they had three solid 8-yard runs on early downs that looked like great starts to drives:
1st & 10 at NE 6 - (10:10 - 1st) R.Stevenson right guard to NE 14 for 8 yards (A.Taylor; D.Davis).
2nd & 2 at NE 14 - (9:37 - 1st) M.Jones pass incomplete deep right to K.Bourne.
3rd & 2 at NE 14 - (9:32 - 1st) (Shotgun) M.Jones pass incomplete deep left to H.Henry.
1st & 10 at NE 25 - (10:39 - 2nd) E.Elliott left tackle to NE 33 for 8 yards (M.Lattimore).
2nd & 2 at NE 33 - (10:08 - 2nd) (Shotgun) E.Elliott right tackle to NE 35 for 2 yards (M.Lattimore, K.Saunders).
<snip>
1st & 10 at NE 25 - (14:50 - 3rd) M.Jones pass short left to J.Smith-Schuster to NE 26 for 1 yard (A.Taylor). <--- this play knocks JJSS out of the game
2nd & 9 at NE 26 - (14:23 - 3rd) R.Stevenson left guard to NE 34 for 8 yards (P.Werner).
3rd & 1 at NE 34 - (14:00 - 3rd) M.Jones FUMBLES (Aborted) at NE 29, RECOVERED by NO-C.Jordan at NE 29.
...but then, not so much.
I don't doubt that they may try that, but I feel pretty confident in saying that it won't work. With no threat to pass then teams would load the box and overwhelm our shaky OL. We don't have receivers or a QB who can make a D pay for overcommitting to stop the run.
I'd certainly like to see us run more (ideally more with Rham, and less with Zeke). But if we get out of balance I suspect bad, bad things will occur.
Oh, for sure. Didn’t mean to imply coaches are infallible in their decisions. Just that a lot them tend to approach them the way I described, based on their daily information and evaluations in practice.
This isn't just on Mac obviously, but I got a little curious over how bad this offense has been and they have the 2nd worst dropback EPA/Play in the league since at least 2012 (the site I use doesn't go further). They probably won't end the season this poorly, but right now this passing offense as a whole is just in another stratosphere of shit.
View: https://twitter.com/tkyles39/status/1711517171858170105
I think a lot of QB could do better than Mac. Just like last year and last week guys are open or at least NFL open.
I think a lot of QB could do better than Mac. Just like last year and last week guys are open or at least NFL open.
Everything works better when you’ve got Tom Brady and Rob Gronkowski on the field.
Earlier in the year I thought there were some real bad WR plays....
Last two weeks Mac is missing guys who are open. The playcalling is pretty good, the WRs are winning a good amount... the line still stinks, but Mac is a complete disaster because he's being given nice easy throws and he just either doesn't see them or won't take them.
Last two weeks Mac is missing guys who are open. The playcalling is pretty good, the WRs are winning a good amount... the line still stinks, but Mac is a complete disaster because he's being given nice easy throws and he just either doesn't see them or won't take them.
If the Patriots trade Mac Jones and get the same haul for draft picks in return that they got for Plunkett, I'm all for it.
You realize there is 0.0% chance of any return even remotely in the same stratosphere, right?
There's a stench of death about you. You carry it in your pack like the plague.
I thought it was great throughout. When they brought up “Tyler’s Bullshit” I lost it. That movie was right up my alley.
Dan Orlovsky
@danorlovsky7
“The Patriots all 22 tape is horrific
Impossible to play QB”
Haven’t seen any all 22 yet but he has to be referring to the oline play. Not trying to take blame off of Mac but I don’t know many qbs who could succeed with this offense right now.
@danorlovsky7
“The Patriots all 22 tape is horrific
Impossible to play QB”
Haven’t seen any all 22 yet but he has to be referring to the oline play. Not trying to take blame off of Mac but I don’t know many qbs who could succeed with this offense right now.
I've read some stuff that he's basically looking for his first read and then bailing if it's not there.
So Mac is the tech bro asking for bread, and BB is Hong Chau telling him no, whispering “You will score less than you desire and more than you deserve”?
Not sure why we’re quoting Orlovsky as he has been one of the biggest Mac defenders from the beginning…he essentially claims Mac is as good as Purdy and is simply not credible
Not only that, Orlovsky just doesn't criticize QBs in general. He makes excuses for all of them save for Zach Wilson until last week.
Orlovsky's claim to fame has been riding for Wentz as an elite QB right up until he was out of the league. His takes on QBs are worthless on other stuff he can be fine but not QBs
Armchair psych for a second: There is a window of time when you can showcase leadership, overcome obstacles and prove you’re worthy of being a leader. And when you do that your team gets behind you and will elevate their own performance because it’s worthwhile.
Sure these guys are all professionals and are all compensated well but they are also human and that dynamic does come into play.
The line sucks but they have had decent performances just not consistent ones. But Mac keeps failing to elevate the team even when the protection is good. That saps motivation.
Maybe it’s a chicken and an egg problem but BB has often preached ‘mental toughness’ and that really starts with the QB to lead by example.
When that’s not there the overall effort level will wane.
Sure these guys are all professionals and are all compensated well but they are also human and that dynamic does come into play.
The line sucks but they have had decent performances just not consistent ones. But Mac keeps failing to elevate the team even when the protection is good. That saps motivation.
Maybe it’s a chicken and an egg problem but BB has often preached ‘mental toughness’ and that really starts with the QB to lead by example.
When that’s not there the overall effort level will wane.
His claim to fame is running out of bounds at the back of the endzone completely unpressured, giving up a safety for free. Maybe he's just looking out for his colleagues in the terrible quarterbacks guild.
I wanted to get @SMU_Sox's take on this play in particular, because to me the way Trent Brown sets and just tries to widen the pass rusher only to look back at Mac and then desperately stick his arm out could indicate he expected Mac to be anchored much shallower in the pocket and was trying to guide the DE towards depth and then was surprised to see Mac 11 yards deep. Am I reading too much into this? Is it possible either Mac or the tackles fucked up the expected depth of the drop there?
The only thing I can think of when I see that still shot is "Man, that better be a fucking screen."
Then I remember we have zero guys who are fast enough or have enough vision to make a screen work, so it wouldn't matter anyway. And Mac might throw it to the other team trying to do something stupid off his back foot.
One of the saddest parts of this whole season debacle is that the Mac Sucks contingent is in full-on denial about how bad the OL also is. Like why are these two things somehow mutually exclusive. Even the announcers were calling out that it was pointless for most of the day to step up in the pocket after the tackles were beaten because his guards were usually occupying the space where one would step up due to being bullrushed themselves.
I'm 100% fine with Bill walking away from Mac this offseason and drafting someone or signing a JAG, but we'll be in the same position next year if he disregards the tackle position in the draft and FA period and picks up a center and a guard in the draft and rolls with garbage on the OL once again.
Football is the ultimate team sport. A bad OL is going to make life much harder for a QB. Bad receivers run poor routes and drop good passes even if there's time. A bad QB makes the OL look worse and doesn't give the WRs a chance to make plays. It all fits together. Conversely, a good OL helps a QB a ton, and great receivers make plays, giving the QB confidence. Meanwhile, a great QB makes the right reads and can move in the pocket and make the OL better, and helps hit receivers in stride so they get more YAC.
It feels right now like all phases of the offense are breaking down and it's all piling up on itself and making everything seem even worse (if that's even possible).
It feels right now like all phases of the offense are breaking down and it's all piling up on itself and making everything seem even worse (if that's even possible).
I'm seeing a whole lot more people in denial about how bad Mac has been than people who think he's the only part of the offense that sucks. The vast majority of people unhappy with his play readily recognize the OL is the worst in football by two of the three metrics we have available and the receivers suck. Honestly, I'm not being hyperbolic when I say I haven't seen "the OL is fine" as a sentiment echoed anywhere, not since, say, Week 3. But the "Mac is fine, no one could do any better in this offense" contingent is still going strong online.
really? nearly everyone I've read on this board agrees they are probably the worst line in the NFL. but also, Mac stinks.
Yeah, who are the people in denial about our OL?
I guess the argument is that we can’t really know how bad Mac is because of our OL. Which again is not exactly an under-represented discussion on SOSH. This has been a discussion here for a year or more. It has basically been the discussion (with some pass catcher discussion thrown in).
I was on team “I’m just not sure about Mac” until very recently. Now I am sure. The chicken and egg or “fault” question is not one that interests me. Is he shitty because the line sucks, and in perfect conditions he would flourish? Many seem to think they know one way or the other. I am comfortable saying that I don’t know. It doesn’t matter. That ship has sailed. He is broken. If he has a Ryan Brasier resurgence with a good line, good for him. It needs to happen somewhere else. For his sake and the Patriots’ sake.
Yeah, this.
The OL sucks.
Mac sucks.
If we missed a post from someone saying the OL is fine, please share it.
The closest I’ve seen is “Mac doesn’t help the OL by not stepping up into the pocket” and “Mac doesn’t have good pocket awareness.”
It’s almost like because both suck (Mac and the OL), when put on a field together, they make each other suck more.
Both you and roddick like 5 posts ago looked at an impossible passing situation photo and concluded--and I'm paraphrasing--"that must be Mac's fault".
Tom Brady Resurrected Cyborg couldn't have done shit on Sunday with that offense. That doesn't imply that Mac doesn't suck. But "that must be Mac's fault" implies that you didn't notice what a joke that the OL was all damn day.
I mean, the problem with the offense is that, right now, they might have to replace literally every single starter on it.
Interestingly enough, Daniel Jones is going through the same thing this year. Not that Jones is Justin Herbert, but he has had a touch of success in the NFL. He has less than one second to throw every play. And he's truly awful this year because of it.
But when you're getting hit by THREE guys every play, you will suck.
Actually, they didn’t. In fact, rodderick openly wondered whether it was Mac OR the OT screwing up the depth of the drop. He left it as an open-ended question.
Your paraphrasing is simply an incorrect representation of what he wrote and what slammins also was wondering.
Yep, this feels like it. Even Rhamondre - who was supposed to be the best player on the offense - has looked very MEH. No explosion, no smashing through defenders, no....nothing.
Through 5 games: 68 att, 188 rush yards, 2.8 y/a, with a long of just 12 yards. 12 receptions for 87 yards. Just one total TD. He has no burst, and doesn't power through guys either. He just looks slow and lame. Much of that is the OL - he can't even get a head of steam going. Last year he had 2.9 yards before contact, and this year it's just 1.8. But his yards after contact this year is godawful.
2021: 2.7 yards after contact per attempt
2022: 2.1 yards after contact per attempt
2023: 1.0 yards after contact per attempt
According to pro-football-reference, he's broken a grand total of *THREE* tackles this season. In 2021 he averaged 8.3 rush attempts per broken tackle, and that was 8.8 last year. This year? 22.7 rush attempts per broken tackle.
So again, it's a team sport, right? The OL is getting him buried every time he touches the ball, but he's also not doing anything to help either. He's getting hit and going down instead of shrugging off contact.
It's totally depressing because they aren't doing ANYTHING right on offense. At all. The entire thing is broken.
EDIT: By the way, Elliott hasn't been any better in this regard. He's also averaging 1.0 yards after contact per attempt, and has ZERO broken tackles. So neither guy is "helping" the OL out by being difficult to bring down. That combined with poor OL play means NO rushing game whatsoever. And that makes passing harder. Of course, not passing well makes it harder to run the ball. So again, it's a vicious cycle. If only they could start by doing ONE thing very well, it would really help.
Not sure that’s a fair leap to what they were implying, but either way, the question “is it Mac or is it the offense around him” has dominated BBTL for a year now. It has dominated most threads and even game threads. People disagree, but I don’t think people trying to bolster Mac sucks arguments by pretending the OL is good has really been a thing anyone would take seriously here. Unfortunately, team Mac sucks have plenty to work with to make their arguments right now without needing hyperbole.
Yep. Daniel Jones is another example. And somehow Russell Wilson and Goff can play again, and let's talk about Baker Mayfield.
You're right. I went too far. They said that it could be Mac's fault, not that it must be. Which is still really weird to me. Finding plays where Mac sucked in that game isn't that hard. Pointing to one of like a dozen Trent Brown turnstile performances and looking for the possibility that it was somehow the QBs fault is denial.
edit: if nobody else thinks that's weird, I'll shut up about it.