The Newest Vaughn

[Fishy1]

If Valdez fields fine, then we suddenly don’t need Grissom at all.

Well, even if fields fine, Grissom will probably still be the better option. Grissom's minor league hitting performance is comparable to Casas. We're talking about a guy who was 135 wrc+ at AAA last year, 147 at AA, and 146 and better at A+. Casas, for comparison, was about 130 at AAA and 142 at AA. He could be a monster hitter. Valdez I'd project to be a league average guy. 10 war for his career would be a upper quartile outcome for him, I would think. Grissom has a chance to be a guy who's worth 3-4 WAR year-in, year-out, and better if his defense ends up being above average at 2b (which I'm not really in the business of predicting). I know we don't like batting average anymore, but it's hard to ignore that he never hit below .311 in a full minor league season, and he posted on-base percentages of .400 at every stop except rookie ball, ironically. For god's sake, the guy dominated the minor leagues.

Grissom:



Valdez:



I think Valdez is a guy who will probably be between 95-115 wrc+ for his career, but his defense might range from average to below average. If the patience he demonstrated in the upper minors never materializes, he'll also be on the lower range of that wrc+ spectrum and might wash out.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Fair enough, my point was a tad hyperbolic, but if Valdez is suddenly fine defensively, than I don’t think the absence of Grissom will be that significant.

 

[CR67dream]

Fair enough, my point was a tad hyperbolic, but if Valdez is suddenly fine defensively, than I don’t think the absence of Grissom will be that significant.

I totally agree with that, but I also think they have enough options this year to be OK there for a short time regardless. As I said, I'm pretty sure given the position change they're not expecting the second coming of Roberto Alomar in Grissom right off the bat (ok, a tad hyperbolic myself, ) but yeah, I think as it stands the short-term absence of Grissom early on will have very little effect on the results or quality of play.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I totally agree with that, but I also think they have enough options this year to be OK there for a short time regardless. As I said, I'm pretty sure given the position change they're not expecting the second coming of Roberto Alomar in Grissom right off the bat (ok, a tad hyperbolic myself, ) but yeah, I think as it stands the short-term absence of Grissom early on will have very little effect on the results or quality of play.

If Grissom ends up within spitting distance of Alomar, that'd be just fine.

 

[nvalvo]

If Valdez fields fine, then we suddenly don’t need Grissom at all.

Uh, yes we do. His minor league track record suggests a Pedroia-esque offensive impact. Valdez is a nice piece against righties, but Grissom should be a .280/.350/.420 type.

(To be clear, I’m not expecting anywhere close to Pedroian excellence on the defensive side. Just competence.)

 

[SouthernBoSox]

Uh, yes we do. His minor league track record suggests a Pedroia-esque offensive impact. Valdez is a nice piece against righties, but Grissom should be a .280/.350/.420 type.

(To be clear, I’m not expecting anywhere close to Pedroian excellence on the defensive side. Just competence.)

Yea, we’ve said this a lot, but because Vaughn came from outside of the system people are really underestimating the ceiling.

It’s very very high. He’s much closer to Casas than Valdez when it comes to potential.

I do think it would be very valuable to see Valdez for a few week. If his defense is just slightly below average he will have actual value moving forward.

 

[Rovin Romine]

I totally agree with that, but I also think they have enough options this year to be OK there for a short time regardless. As I said, I'm pretty sure given the position change they're not expecting the second coming of Roberto Alomar in Grissom right off the bat (ok, a tad hyperbolic myself, ) but yeah, I think as it stands the short-term absence of Grissom early on will have very little effect on the results or quality of play.

In a perfect world you have the classic "good problem" with two young, cost-controlled 2B by mid-season. But if it takes 4 weeks or so from the injury for him to recover, plus say two weeks in AAA to get up to speed, Valdez will have a month or so to turn this into a real pros/cons debate. Ultimately, I think Grissom has more upside, but that's not to short-change how valuable a neutral defensive Valdez would be with his bat.

 

[YTF]

If Grissom ends up within spitting distance of Alomar, that'd be just fine.

Nicely done.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

Speier has an article about Grissom's struggles and how he is in catch-up mode.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/05/14/sports/red-sox-grissom-catching-up/

Through nine games this year, he is hitting just .135/.135/.162 with very little hard contact. His limited offensive production at this stage of his first season with the Red Sox, however, should not come as a huge surprise.
Grissom missed most of spring training with groin and hamstring injuries. Then, after a nine-game rehab assignment, the second baseman got sick just before he was set to be activated, losing 14 pounds because of his appetite loss.
“Physically, he’s not even close to where he should be,” Sox manager Alex Cora said.

Grissom, 0 for 4 in the win, said he has yet to regain his appetite from his illness, but he’s still trying to force himself to consume protein and carbs (lots of protein shakes and steak) so he can take on weight and build strength.
With the loss of weight and strength, Grissom acknowledged that his bat has felt heavy — preventing him from having the same “whip” and life in his swing that he felt through the offseason and into the start of spring training. That, in turn, has left him cheating at times with his swing. He has been starting the swing early, an approach that has made it harder for him to check on pitches he can’t drive.

So why did they bring him up when he is not feeling 100%?

The Sox are mindful that Grissom is reduced, yet taking the longer view. For now, he’s contributed solid defense, and the team believes that keeping Grissom in the lineup against big league pitchers is the best way to tap into the considerable offensive potential that led the club to acquire him from Atlanta in the Chris Sale trade over the winter.
“He’s a big part of what we’re trying to do now and what the organization is trying to do in the future,” Cora said. “We’re going to push him to get at-bats.”

On the season, Sox second basemen have been beyond horrendous. .166/.183/.242 in 42 games. 43 Ks to 4 BB in 165 PA. Jaw-dropping stuff.

The other guys were also hitting worse than pitchers, so the hope is that Grissom feels stronger soon and gets going. If he hits .200 for the next week, that would be a significant improvement over what we've had so far from the position.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

I don't get it. Grissom needs not only to get physically stronger, he also would appear to potentially benefit from a confidence boost. Nobody could be psyched to go to work when you're 0-4 day after day. Working his way back against AAA pitchers would be a start.

Meantime, I'll bet you Nick Sogard would outproduce him (or, obviously, Hamilton) on the MLB club. I realize Sogard requires a 40-man spot, but there are 40 ways to find one of those.

 

[Fishy1]

I don't get it. Grissom needs not only to get physically stronger, he also would appear to potentially benefit from a confidence boost. Nobody could be psyched to go to work when you're 0-4 day after day. Working his way back against AAA pitchers would be a start.

Meantime, I'll bet you Nick Sogard would outproduce him (or, obviously, Hamilton) on the MLB club. I realize Sogard requires a 40-man spot, but there are 40 ways to find one of those.

I'm trying to think. I mean, for one, his time on the DL had expired, so they would have had to put him back on the DL. Then there was the fact that a healthy Valdez was hitting just as poorly. And Grissom was ripping the cover off the ball in AAA, so it's not like he was scuffling down there.

I think they just made a tough choice to play him after the illness and hope he gets his sea legs soon.

He doesn't seem, fwiw, like he's lacking confidence. He's smiling in the dugout, he's not striking out a ton, he's just not hitting the ball hard just yet. I think he'll be fine, honestly. He'll get going sooner or later once he's feeling better.

 

[LoLsapien]

Yeah, there's conversation all over the board about how large a jump it is to MLB. Scuffling for 100-200 at bats should probably be the expectation at this point. He had about that much with ATL but it was between 2022-2023 so I'm not sure that really counts at this point, and he's at 37 plate appearances on the year. We should probably expect him to struggle for a while longer before getting concerned.

 

[Rovin Romine]

In a perfect world you have the classic "good problem" with two young, cost-controlled 2B by mid-season. But if it takes 4 weeks or so from the injury for him to recover, plus say two weeks in AAA to get up to speed, Valdez will have a month or so to turn this into a real pros/cons debate. Ultimately, I think Grissom has more upside, but that's not to short-change how valuable a neutral defensive Valdez would be with his bat.

Well, Valdez had his month or so and it went incredibly poorly. A much improved defense paired with an awful bat. 90 ABs, 4 BB, 30Ks, .156/.186/.267.

SSS, but since he's been sent to Worcester, he's been on fire. 41 ABs, 4 HR, 7 BB, 14 K. .268/.375/634. BABIP is .304 - a bit above his MIL BABIP career average of .289.

Most of his AAA games have been at 2B, but he's gotten some time at 3B and 1B.

Yeah, there's conversation all over the board about how large a jump it is to MLB. Scuffling for 100-200 at bats should probably be the expectation at this point.

Pedroia and Casas were both longer than that. Casas showed pretty good underlying metrics though and his excellent batting eye and approach was evident in his individual at bats.

With younger players on the way up, the Sox need to invest in someone who can minimize the adjustment period or make it less stark in terms of outcomes. Valdez, for example, didn't "scuffle" - he cratered. And that was after OPSing .864 in 180 ML at-bats in 2023. Whatever they did with him this year was ass-backwards.

 

[Sox Pride]

Yeah but Grissom has had success at the ML level before.

156 PA with a 793 OPS is at age 21 is nothing to sneeze at.

He's played what? Nine games this year?

Coming of an injury/illness where he lost 14 pounds. Give him a chance to get his feet back under him.

 

[MikeM]

The former personal trainer in me finds that reported 14lb weight loss claim to be an eyebrow raiser. Especially for a higher end 200lb+ athletic guy with that body type. That's a pretty extreme amount of weight to lose in such a short amount of time.

Makes me wonder if there was more going on within that story (or whether it's being exaggerated). And what his normal diet looks like.

 

[Fishy1]

The former personal trainer in me finds that reported 14lb weight loss claim to be an eyebrow raiser. Especially for a higher end 200lb+ athletic guy with that body type. That's a pretty extreme amount of weight to lose in such a short amount of time.

Makes me wonder if there was more going on within that story (or whether it's being exaggerated). And what his normal diet looks like.

When I first saw him at the plate I did a doubletake. His clothes were hanging off of him.

 

[shaggydog2000]

The former personal trainer in me finds that reported 14lb weight loss claim to be an eyebrow raiser. Especially for a higher end 200lb+ athletic guy with that body type. That's a pretty extreme amount of weight to lose in such a short amount of time.

Makes me wonder if there was more going on within that story (or whether it's being exaggerated). And what his normal diet looks like.

When you have a huge weight change in a short time like that, most of it is water, and it can come back pretty quickly once you're eating a normal amount of carbs, salt, etc.

 

[jon abbey]

Meantime, I'll bet you Nick Sogard would outproduce him (or, obviously, Hamilton) on the MLB club. I realize Sogard requires a 40-man spot, but there are 40 ways to find one of those.

It's not finding the 40 man spot, it's that once you add a player that you care about, you need to keep them on the 40 man going forward. This is a big impediment for guys at times, I don't know the precise specifics of this situation but I'm sure it's a factor.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I'm trying to think. I mean, for one, his time on the DL had expired, so they would have had to put him back on the DL.

FWIW, Grissom has options so he can be sent to Worcester without an IL stint.

Meantime, I'll bet you Nick Sogard would outproduce him (or, obviously, Hamilton) on the MLB club. I realize Sogard requires a 40-man spot, but there are 40 ways to find one of those.

LOL to the Nick Sogard idea. Not that I'm down on Sogard, but he's a 26 year old currently sporting a .673 OPS at Worcester. Highly touted prospects who crushed AAA pitching have been struggling to transition to the majors (see consensus #1 prospect Jackson Holliday). No chance that a guy who's not tearing the cover off the ball is going to come up and succeed.

 

[chrisfont9]

Yeah but Grissom has had success at the ML level before.

156 PA with a 793 OPS is at age 21 is nothing to sneeze at.

He's played what? Nine games this year?

Coming of an injury/illness where he lost 14 pounds. Give him a chance to get his feet back under him.

Right, his past experience is the part that makes me think the Sox need not worry about his mental state being impacted by getting rushed. I'm sure he knows he's playing catch-up physically and that isn't hurting his confidence much. Also how many big league spinners do you need to see before you can hit them? Guessing a lot. Carry on.

 

[Sin Duda]

Anyone have a sense of how Grissom has played 2B? Not the D metrics (way too soon), eyeball test.

 

[Sox Pride]

Anyone have a sense of how Grissom has played 2B? Not the D metrics (way too soon), eyeball test.

This was really my only worry on the Sale trade. I was hoping he didn't work out at SS for the Braves because he didn't have the arm for it.
I haven't noticed anything bad at second yet, but I don't have access to all the games.

 

[ookami7m]

I've watched all but one of the games since he came up. He's solid if not spectacular. makes all the plays he should and has flashed some range. Seems to have a good feel for positioning. I'm no scout but he's quite Bellhorn-ian so far in that I've not noticed him on defense hardly at all.

 

[Sin Duda]

I've watched all but one of the games since he came up. He's solid if not spectacular. makes all the plays he should and has flashed some range. Seems to have a good feel for positioning. I'm no scout but he's quite Bellhorn-ian so far in that I've not noticed him on defense hardly at all.

Thanks. I've only seen him a couple times, but he seems okay so far, Bellhornian, indeed! Hope he hits a couple key dingers against the Yankees.