The offense post Gronk

[Super Nomario]

Shane Vereen had 153 receiving yards yesterday. He's the first Patriots RB in the Brady era to have 150 yards in a game. Other 150-yard receivers: Welker 6 times, Moss twice, Branch twice, and Lloyd, Gronk, and Troy Brown all did it once. Faulk's career high was 109, Woodhead 104.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Vereen's hands aren't as good as Faulk's or Woodhead's. He seems to have at least 1 "took my eye off the ball" drop a game.
 
But his speed blows Faulk and Woodhead's out of the water, and his agility is well past that of Faulk. The kid's got real talent.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Another guy worth watching is Boyce. He's dynamic when he gets the ball in his hands. Maybe he can step up and make some big plays to compensate for the loss. Brady obviousy wasn't afraid to throw to him in a huge moment yesterday. I'm not expecting huge things, but I am optimistic that he can be a plus player from here on out.

 

[pappymojo]

Vereen's hands aren't as good as Faulk's or Woodhead's. He seems to have at least 1 "took my eye off the ball" drop a game.
 
But his speed blows Faulk and Woodhead's out of the water, and his agility is well past that of Faulk. The kid's got real talent.

Still in a partial cast right?

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Would like to see a screen pass to Boyce be a regular part of the offense.
 
One difference between Vereen and Faulk/Woodhead is they trust him more (or at least, use him more) setting up outside and also going deeper downfield.  He's much close to being a WR in terms of patterns than they are---granted, most of his stuff is short/medium but he goes downfield more than any RB I can recall.  And that's a weapon, especially when they can get him isolated on a LB.   Agree with prior comments about his hands---hopefully that improves the last half-notch.

 

[Stitch01]

Another guy worth watching is Boyce. He's dynamic when he gets the ball in his hands. Maybe he can step up and make some big plays to compensate for the loss. Brady obviousy wasn't afraid to throw to him in a huge moment yesterday. I'm not expecting huge things, but I am optimistic that he can be a plus player from here on out.

Would be nice, he looks fast and quick as fuck, but Im not expecting him to be a plus player as a raw rookie with little playing time to date. I am very interested in hearing how he looked on film yesterday.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Food for thought....they absolutely can score without Gronk.  Look at the drives after he departed on Sunday.

 

Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin 1m
With Gronk, #Patriots went Punt, INT, Punt, Punt, Punt, Knee, Punt, Fumble. Without him they went FG, TD, FG, TD TD
 

I'm not saying this means they will keep up their 30-plus point average with him on the field without him, but let's not say the sky is falling and they have no chance to pile up points.  They just have to do it differently.  The personnel they have screams up-tempo, spread-it-out type of offense.

 

[MainerInExile]

Count me in the Vereen as a major factor camp.
 
If the goal is to get him against an LB, are we likely to see more two-back sets with Vereen?  If the other team plays base, you split Vereen out and get him against a LB.  If they play nickel, you hand the ball off?

 

[Tony C]

Still in a partial cast right?

 
The drops concern me, too and, like you, I wonder both to what degree the cast is responsible and for how long he'll have it. Am I wrong, I don't recall him having the dropsies like this last year.

 

[Super Nomario]

 
The drops concern me, too and, like you, I wonder both to what degree the cast is responsible and for how long he'll have it. Am I wrong, I don't recall him having the dropsies like this last year.

He only had 8 career catches coming into this season, so there wasn't really any sample size to show or not show "dropsies."

 

[lambeau]

My idea was more hurry-up offense; more no- huddle; more West-coast; more five receiver sets...
 
Then I calculated...the Patriots have have run about 25 more plays from scrimmage than the Eagles this season. Hmm....
 
I was surprised.

 

[steveluck7]

IN the RZ i think they're going to have to get more creative with / rely on Amendola a bit more. The GW TD was a good example, designed roll-out with Danny running the rub route to the sideline.  I can see him and Edleman running more of those as well as trying to get away with some pick plays across the middle.

 

[mulluysavage]

What about "Without Gronk" instead of " Post Gronk"?

 

[Bellhorn]

My idea was more hurry-up offense; more no- huddle; more West-coast; more five receiver sets...
 
Then I calculated...the Patriots have have run about 25 more plays from scrimmage than the Eagles this season. Hmm....
 
I was surprised.

There are a lot of factors that go into determining total # of offensive plays, other than degree of hurry-up employed.

I agree with RedOctober above. No-huddle should be a big part of adapting to life without Gronk, as long as the rookies can handle it.

 

[Bellhorn]

According to FO, the Patriots are 3rd in the league at 24.25 seconds per offensive play. Philly leads at 22.99 seconds. Interestingly, the Patriots play faster when leading by 7+ points than they do when trailing by 7+, the only team in the league for whom this is true.

 

[wutang112878]

 
 
Then I calculated...the Patriots have have run about 25 more plays from scrimmage than the Eagles this season. Hmm....
 
I was surprised.

 
This kind of makes sense.  The Pats have 304 first downs and the Eagles have 281.  In addition the Eagles average more yards per play 6.2 while the Pats average 5.4  So actually, I'm kind of surprised we have only run 25 more plays, although football reference has the Pats at 930 plays and the Eagles at 860 which sounds more reasonable.

 

[steveluck7]

 
This kind of makes sense.  The Pats have 304 first downs and the Eagles have 281.  In addition the Eagles average more yards per play 6.2 while the Pats average 5.4  So actually, I'm kind of surprised we have only run 25 more plays, although football reference has the Pats at 930 plays and the Eagles at 860 which sounds more reasonable.

The Patriots have also played in 2 rather long overtime games, the Eagles haven't been into OT this year

 

[Reardon's Beard]

More pro set formations. We know Vereen is going to be a big part of the offense, but continued positive contributions from Blount, Bolden, and Ridley are going to be key. Not sure which is the best blocker but they really need a back that can step up to buy that extra second or two for Brady.
 
Lots of up tempo no huddle offense. Their strategic advantage has always been Belichick and Brady, now it'll just have to be faster.

 

[Stitch01]

Dobson still not practicing, so Id guess he's still out this week.  Puts a damper on 4 wideout sets.

 

[wutang112878]

Dobson still not practicing, so Id guess he's still out this week.  Puts a damper on 4 wideout sets.

 
We still have Amendola, Edelman, Thompkins, Boyce and Collie.  Collie would be the 5th emergency type guy, but the other 4 have proven to be competent as of late.  Although it is odd that Thompkins has had his role significantly reduced.

 

[Stitch01]

There's still five bodies there (although Thompkins was out with an injury last week and is still banged up), but Boyce and Collie are pretty big wild cards (and counting on Collie to make it through a whole game is always dicey),  I dont think either of them can play as big of the role in the offense on the outside as Dobson right now. 

 

[wutang112878]

Boyce and Collie certainly arent great fits as outside guys, but it looks like they are trying to hide that flaw by running a ton of the pick plays.  Maybe thats not what you call it, but the play where 1 WR goes in motion and lines up behind another WR so off the line he gets a free release and they generally have them run a quick in or out route and rely on YAC.  I forget if it was on the Edelman or Amendola TD against the Browns, but thats exactly what they ran on that play

 

[RedOctober3829]

Boyce and Collie certainly arent great fits as outside guys, but it looks like they are trying to hide that flaw by running a ton of the pick plays.  Maybe thats not what you call it, but the play where 1 WR goes in motion and lines up behind another WR so off the line he gets a free release and they generally have them run a quick in or out route and rely on YAC.  I forget if it was on the Edelman or Amendola TD against the Browns, but thats exactly what they ran on that play

Yes, they tend to run those pick plays/rub routes a lot with Amendola, Collie, and Boyce.  I hope they continue to use Boyce as a deep threat as well.

 

[RorschachsMask]

I'd like to see some sets with Ridley at RB, with Vereen split out wide alongside Edelman/Amendola/Boyce, then Dobson when he's back.
 
It's not the same as with Gronk obviously, but it's a pretty explosive offense i think.

 

[wutang112878]

I'd like to see some sets with Ridley at RB, with Vereen split out wide alongside Edelman/Amendola/Boyce, then Dobson when he's back.
 
It's not the same as with Gronk obviously, but it's a pretty explosive offense i think.

 
In that scenario doesnt the opposing defense go to a nickel and treat Vereen as a WR?  Then he would be matched up with a corner or maybe a safety.  Typically it seems his best matchups are when he is lined up wide and is covered by a LB.
 
Although I will admit, I dont know how many snaps he has had while another RB was also on the field

 

[PedrosRedGlove]

Well having Ridley in the backfield would be the counter to that, if they want to go to a sub package to focus on Vereen the Pats can try to gash them on the ground with Ridley. That seems like it would be a pretty dynamic combo to use with the no huddle.

Hopefully Develin can continue to contribute as well. While the spread offense might be our most effective offense, it also might get Brady killed. I'm also worried to rely on 4 wide sets when we've struggled to get more than 4 healthy WRs on the active roster all season. Whoever is in the backfield, someone really needs to step up in the pass protection department to help give Brady a chance back there. This year has really made me appreciate how good Faulk and even Woodhead were at being in the right spot to cut-off or chip a rusher.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Well having Ridley in the backfield would be the counter to that, if they want to go to a sub package to focus on Vereen the Pats can try to gash them on the ground with Ridley. That seems like it would be a pretty dynamic combo to use with the no huddle.

Hopefully Develin can continue to contribute as well. While the spread offense might be our most effective offense, it also might get Brady killed. I'm also worried to rely on 4 wide sets when we've struggled to get more than 4 healthy WRs on the active roster all season. Whoever is in the backfield, someone really needs to step up in the pass protection department to help give Brady a chance back there. This year has really made me appreciate how good Faulk and even Woodhead were at being in the right spot to cut-off or chip a rusher.

 
It would be interesting. I think until Dobson comes back, we don't really have the deep threat that could take advantage of teams lining up a safety over Vereen (while staying in nickel). If teams choose to go into a dime, I don't think Ridley gashes them as much as you'd like considering we don't have a TE on the line for the additional blocking. If Amendola's blocking is as good as PFF thinks, motioning him to chip at the line might not be a terrible idea.
 
This formation intrigues me.

 

[PedrosRedGlove]

I agree with that. Even against a sub defense that is still a really light personnel grouping for Ridley, or anyone, to be running behind consistently. Without Gronk and Dobson the versatility of the offense is seriously limited again. It's been mentioned before, but considering the personnel we have healthy at the moment I wouldn't be surprised to see a TE or 6th O-lineman stapled to the end of the line almost permanently to address the protection issues.

I'm interested to see what Brady can do with this receiver corps now that Amendola is healthy and Boyce has started to emerge. They are certainly lacking in size, but with Edelman and Collie that's a lot of quick receivers to match up with.

 

[lambeau]

Boyce with his 4.38 speed (Tavon Austin at that Combine 4.34)will be prominent at least until Dobson's back.

At some point they'll try working Williams in--probably not yet.Boyce,Vereen, Edelman,Collie, Amendola--the smalls.

 

[Eric Ampersand]

Why not roll out some full house? If McDanials wants to keep all the backs involved, then put them all on the field together. I know everyone is calling for more spread but this team has depth at running back too. Plus full house can transition to many other formations by flexing Vereen and DJ Williams. Then again maybe DJ Williams sucks. 

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Boyce with his 4.38 speed (Tavon Austin at that Combine 4.34)will be prominent at least until Dobson's back.

At some point they'll try working Williams in--probably not yet.Boyce,Vereen, Edelman,Collie, Amendola--the smalls.

 
I think we've seen the role the Patriots think Boyce can excel at as a rookie, and that doesn't appear to be a deep threat. That's not to say he can't be, but he may not have that ability just yet. More goes into it than just being fast.
 
I think we see Boyce doing what he did last week. A few WR screens, potential for some end arounds, some bubble routes...

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

I think Boyce has some more YAC ability than people are giving him credit for. I think he can take a hit or at least make someone miss and grab some extra yards. He's fast which is great but he's also pretty strong which could make him a pretty nice threat moving forward.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I think Boyce has some more YAC ability than people are giving him credit for. I think he can take a hit or at least make someone miss and grab some extra yards. He's fast which is great but he's also pretty strong which could make him a pretty nice threat moving forward.

 
 
Sooo...
 

 
I think we've seen the role the Patriots think Boyce can excel at as a rookie, and that doesn't appear to be a deep threat. That's not to say he can't be, but he may not have that ability just yet. More goes into it than just being fast.
 
I think we see Boyce doing what he did last week. A few WR screens, potential for some end arounds, some bubble routes...

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Yeah. I was agreeing with you. Just adding on.

 

[bradmahn]

I don't think there's nearly enough evidence to say they aren't going to use him as a deep threat, especially given that Brady targeted him on a 30+ yard route on the controversial PI call at the end of the last game.

 

[Shelterdog]

I don't think there's nearly enough evidence to say they aren't going to use him as a deep threat, especially given that Brady targeted him on a 30+ yard route on the controversial PI call at the end of the last game.

 
In my mind a deep threat is not just someone who goes deep now and then opportunistically, it's someone you send deep pretty consistently who is also talented enough to deserve extra attention.  I haven't seen this from Boyce yet, I don't think we will (if he was that good he'd be playing more), but we can hope.

He is fast enough that if they need him to play they will send him deep now and then, I agree about that.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Early in the game it seemed like Develin was not only splitting out wide more then I remember but also running some routes down the middle of the field.  I don't remember any balls coming his way.  Have they been splitting him out in previous games and I just haven't looked for it?  Whatever they were doing with him early seemed not to work, I don't remember seeing him much in the 2nd half.  According to Reiss he only played 28 of 81 snaps.

 

[Super Nomario]

Early in the game it seemed like Develin was not only splitting out wide more then I remember but also running some routes down the middle of the field.  I don't remember any balls coming his way.  Have they been splitting him out in previous games and I just haven't looked for it?  Whatever they were doing with him early seemed not to work, I don't remember seeing him much in the 2nd half.  According to Reiss he only played 28 of 81 snaps.

They do this on occasion. In the Erhardt-Perkins O, which the Pats run, the plays / concepts are independent of personnel / formation, so Develin theoretically can run all the same plays as Amendola. This is probably something they use to get a mismatch elsewhere. Either you've got to shift a LB to cover Develin on the sideline and move a CB into the middle of the field (where he may not be comfortable, or may be vulnerable against the run), or you leave your CB on the outside and end up covering Amendola with a LB.
 
EDIT: I guess my point is that throwing to Develin isn't the goal; it's to open things up elsewhere, likely the middle of the field.

 

[axx]

Kind of interesting, Hooman is going to hit his 370k incentive, which is pretty huge for him considering the base salary was 630k. Do they bring him back next year considering Gronk is going to miss a good chunk of next season?
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4756010/hoomanawanui-set-to-cash-in-on-incentive?ex_cid=espnapi_public

 

[dynomite]

Are you sure Gronk will miss a substantial part of next year?

Last I heard, he is tentatively expected to be ready for the beginning of 2014: http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5729/rob-gronkowski

Note that this doesn't exactly answer your question with respect to Hooman, but it's a related question.

Edit: To answer your question, bringing him back makes a ton of sense but only under the right conditions. The Patriots will almost certainly add a young TE via the draft/UDFA process, and could have plans beyond that (trading for SoSH binkie Marcel Reece who might be available as the Raiders restock yet again?). Hooman is a great blocker and knows the offense well, but given Gronk's injury history the team needs another semi-reliable pass catching TE option. Hooman's stunning catch vs. Miami notwithstanding, that's not Hooman. I hope there's room for him on the 2014 roster.