The Red Sox have fired Chaim Bloom

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Jinhocho

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Fairly balanced take... "tightfisted approach to free agency"...
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/chaim-blooms-time-as-bostons-fall-guy-has-ended/

Bloom won’t be around to reap the benefits of those prospects’ production, mainly because the big club’s sluggish performance didn’t buy him enough time. It’s yet another unfair aspect of the thankless job he was hired to do. Perhaps his tenure will receive some credit for its contributions to a future championship in Boston the way Cherington did for his additions to the 2018 team. And perhaps Bloom will find success at the helm of another organization; he’s too bright a baseball mind, and too well-regarded within the industry, not to get another shot. But until then, and for perhaps even longer, Bloom will be remembered as The Guy Who Traded Mookie Betts, and that’s a tough tag to wear.
 

curly2

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Sure the young hitting looks decent but where’s the pitching? Because of that I think the fifth place ranking is very optimistic.
I think that's part of the reason Bloom, was let go. The Sox need to add to add two good starting pitchers fr 2024. With the death of pitching prospects, the Sox need to be bold this offseason. I think that means signing a big free agent and trying to trade some position players or prospects for a pitcher with at least a couple of years of control. Bloom has done some very good things and I would definitely say he's smart, but I don't think he's bold.
 

mikcou

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Logan Allen was a 2nd round pick in 2020. Tanner Bibee 5th round pick in 2021. Gavin Williams 1st round pick (23rd overall) in 2021.

That’s 3 impact SP for one team in 2023 alone. It isn’t easy but it can be done with proper talent evaluation and development.
Bloom never really wanted to invest any amount in pitching (big deals were position players, highest pitcher drafted was #99 in his four drafts, didnt pay any big bonuses to pitchers in IFA). I think analytically you probably do get a better return on position players, but at some point you need to invest something in pitching or you're left with a staff thats made up of what the Sox have: a collection of guys who are a combination of not very good, constantly hurt, or guys who are 3-4 inning guys. How heavily he went on position players really was remarkable.
 

JCizzle

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Yes of course, and I was among them. But that's not my point. I'm saying that JBJ was not the target to take over right field. The real bet was that Duran, or to a lesser extent Cordero, would seize the job.

I'm saying that clearing a lane for an emerging prospect to make the leap from the minors to Boston has value, and that's what gets overlooked. It's not something that boom cycle/GFIN teams have to deal with quite as much.

I don't think there were a lot of returns for Renfroe (at best a relatively expensive, so-so player) that could give us both prospects and a plausible safeguard in RF in case the real plan (Duran's emergence) flopped. The bet that JBJ would rebound to some utility was even more complicated by the pandemic. It didn't work, but the guiding factor in that trade was not JBJ or the prospects, it was Duran.
But isn’t it Bloom’s job to know who would replace that production? We’re just whatever prognosticators, but he’s getting paid to identify talent. He failed at that in this situation.
 

JM3

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That the 2 best pitchers are in A+ and one wasn’t even drafted by Bloom.

I feel like Office Space right now. What exactly would you say you do here??
Would it be less of a problem if the 2 best pitchers disappeared & then the best prospects are in AA or AAA?

It's amazing how much people enjoy being unhappy.
 

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That they have really good young pitchers? Not really a problem.
You’re completely missing the point. If Bloom is supposed to be a draft guru, then why are the two best pitchers topping out at A+? Like shouldn’t someone be in Portland at least by now?

The amount of excuses Bloom gets on this board is insane.
 

JM3

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I didn’t question the drafting. I was merely showing an example of a team drafting and developing promising SP during the time Chaim was hired.
Yeah, it's possible to do, just uncommon. & they are an impressive example.
 

BigSoxFan

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Bloom never really wanted to invest any amount in pitching (big deals were position players, highest pitcher drafted was #99 in his four drafts, didnt pay any big bonuses to pitchers in IFA). I think analytically you probably do get a better return on position players, but at some point you need to invest something in pitching or you're left with a staff thats made up of what the Sox have: a collection of guys who are a combination of not very good, constantly hurt, or guys who are 3-4 inning guys. How heavily he went on position players really was remarkable.
Agreed. Pitching is volatile so I get why he’s trying to lock in the position players, and he’ll almost certainly have some “wins from that group”, but that approach has led to a situation where there isn’t much above A+ ball. It’s certainly a very tough job. And it’s not like he’s been alone in this organization. Hopefully Bello and guys like Wikelman and Yordanny can buck this trend. We need to start developing our own pitching talent.
 

JM3

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You’re completely missing the point. If Bloom is supposed to be a draft guru, then why are the two best pitchers topping out at A+? Like shouldn’t someone be in Portland at least by now?

The amount of excuses Bloom gets on this board is insane.
No. I understand the point.The point is just stupid. They aren't "topping out". They're 20. The fact that y'all don't have any patience doesn't change the fact that the farm system is in a really good place.

I've stated on numerous occasions that I don't think Bloom is special & I'm fine with him being fired.
 

moondog80

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You’re completely missing the point. If Bloom is supposed to be a draft guru, then why are the two best pitchers topping out at A+? Like shouldn’t someone be in Portland at least by now?

The amount of excuses Bloom gets on this board is insane.
Because the Red Sox haven’t used their elite draft capital on pitching.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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That the 2 best pitchers are in A+ and one wasn’t even drafted by Bloom.

I feel like Office Space right now. What exactly would you say you do here??
Exactly. Dombrowksi was fired after four years because the farm system was in shambles- yet four years isn’t long enough to evaluate Bloom on pitchers he acquired as amateurs….seems inconsistent.
 

Harry Hooper

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Yes of course, and I was among them. But that's not my point. I'm saying that JBJ was not the target to take over right field. The real bet was that Duran, or to a lesser extent Cordero, would seize the job.

I'm saying that clearing a lane for an emerging prospect to make the leap from the minors to Boston has value, and that's what gets overlooked. It's not something that boom cycle/GFIN teams have to deal with quite as much.

I don't think there were a lot of returns for Renfroe (at best a relatively expensive, so-so player) that could give us both prospects and a plausible safeguard in RF in case the real plan (Duran's emergence) flopped. The bet that JBJ would rebound to some utility was even more complicated by the pandemic. It didn't work, but the guiding factor in that trade was not JBJ or the prospects, it was Duran.

Am I misunderstanding something here? How could Duran with no arm and other defensive issues be considered a candidate for RF, especially RF in Fenway, in place of Renfroe?
 

8slim

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No. I understand the point.The point is just stupid. They aren't "topping out". They're 20. The fact that y'all don't have any patience doesn't change the fact that the farm system is in a really good place.

I've stated on numerous occasions that I don't think Bloom is special & I'm fine with him being fired.
I don’t understand the “patience” comment. The team drafted for 4 years under Bloom and there isn’t a single high impact pitching prospect in AA or AAA. What happened in those drafts?
 

ngruz25

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Bloom never really wanted to invest any amount in pitching (big deals were position players, highest pitcher drafted was #99 in his four drafts, didnt pay any big bonuses to pitchers in IFA). I think analytically you probably do get a better return on position players, but at some point you need to invest something in pitching or you're left with a staff thats made up of what the Sox have: a collection of guys who are a combination of not very good, constantly hurt, or guys who are 3-4 inning guys. How heavily he went on position players really was remarkable.
Going into the 2022 off-season, I thought Kevin Gausman was the perfect fit for the Sox. He’s a workhorse veteran pitcher that seemed to be hitting his peak, with his early years molded in the AL East.

Instead Bloom ended up giving pretty much the same contract to Trevor Story, a guy with a ticking time bomb of an elbow playing out of position, and Rich Hill.

Real life isn’t a video game and sometimes the guy just picks a different team. But Gausman was the guy and he whiffed.
 

moondog80

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I don’t understand the “patience” comment. The team drafted for 4 years under Bloom and there isn’t a single high impact pitching prospect in AA or AAA. What happened in those drafts?
I don’t have all the drafts in front of me but my recollection is that most of the high picks have been hitters.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Am I misunderstanding something here? How could Duran with no arm and other defensive issues be considered a candidate for RF, especially RF in Fenway, in place of Renfroe?
He wasn’t, it’s just a way to excuse a crappy trade- they gambled that JBJ still had something left in the tank (playing up the necessity of having a CF in RF at Fenway), and he didn’t. Don’t think it’s more complicated than that.
 

JCizzle

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I don’t understand the “patience” comment. The team drafted for 4 years under Bloom and there isn’t a single high impact pitching prospect in AA or AAA. What happened in those drafts?
This is what I don’t understand. Mayer ain’t coming next year. What’s the return? These are all DD guys. If the argument is that we need to wait until 2026, then everyone has lost it.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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This is what I don’t understand. Mayer ain’t coming next year. What’s the return? These are all DD guys.
Right. The farm system was in shambles when DD left, but now things look really good- in large part because of Bello, Casas, Duran, Houck, Crawford, Rafaela, Perales….all guys who were part of that last ranked farm system four years ago.
 

iddoc

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While I have wanted to believe that the firing was the culmination of much careful deliberation, my initial reaction was that this decision was reactionary to improbable expectations. As the Bloom’s Best Acquisition thread shows, he made a number of very good moves. Of course he has a couple of stinkers (and many of us were fine with the Story deal at the time), though even the excellent GMs all have had their share. Building a farm system and having it bear fruit takes years, and there was no 2020 minor league system (and a truncated draft).

However, emerging reports point to a pattern of indecisiveness, of failing to pull the trigger on deals that, at least in retrospect, would have helped the team (but not immediately…and Kennedy was complaining about not making the postseason).

Hopefully Henry et al are still on board with Bloom’s vision, but decided he doesn’t quite have the executive chops to pull off key deals.

What they should do about Cora and the coaching staff…perhaps that should be in another thread.
 

ngruz25

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He wasn’t, it’s just a way to excuse a crappy trade- they gambled that JBJ still had something left in the tank (playing up the necessity of having a CF in RF at Fenway), and he didn’t. Don’t think it’s more complicated than that.
I thought the running theory was that Renfroe was traded to clear the deck for Seiya Suzuki. Even that seemed like a stretch. I recall that everyone thought that Cora was bluffing when he said that JBJ was going to be the RF, but he wasn’t.

It was either a miscalculation of the FA market or a poor evaluation of JBJ’s talent level. He made the major league team actively worse for the cost of JBJ’s contract and some very middling prospects.
 

moondog80

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Bryan Bello was signed in 2018 and didn’t debut until late 2022. Sometimes it’s a long process.
 

JCizzle

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Right. The farm system was in shambles when DD left, but now things look really good- in large part because of Bello, Casas, Duran, Houck, Crawford, Rafaela, Perales….all guys who were part of that last ranked farm system four years ago.
This was supposed to be the Bloom TB special. Trade me Sale for those guys and then resign Sale for pennies years later. That type of deal never happened. It sucks, but the Rays pulled it off. That’s what you get paid to do.
 

JM3

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Exactly. Dombrowksi was fired after four years because the farm system was in shambles- yet four years isn’t long enough to evaluate Bloom on pitchers he acquired as amateurs….seems inconsistent.
Almost nobody from the farm system helped the team for multiple years after DD left...

I expect lots of people Bloom has acquired to help the team after he leaves. Most of the people Bloom has drafted are proceeding about how one would expect based on the draft capital used or better, & there are lots of interesting IFAs who obviously can't possibly be ready to help in this time frame.

But again... I've never said Bloom shouldn't have been fired. But actual experts think we have a top 5 system, including intriguing pitching prospects. So the criticisms of people who don't even pay attention to our farm system don't really hold a lot of weight for me.
 

BigSoxFan

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I don’t have all the drafts in front of me but my recollection is that most of the high picks have been hitters.
They have been but that’s kind of the point. You need a strike a balance between hitting and pitching and Chaim really didn’t in the draft. There are other avenues like international signings to compensate for it but feels like the early returns are light on pitching after 4 years.
 

JM3

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I don’t understand the “patience” comment. The team drafted for 4 years under Bloom and there isn’t a single high impact pitching prospect in AA or AAA. What happened in those drafts?
They drafted multiple top 100 hitting prospects, & a lot of interesting, but less elite pitching prospects.
 

JM3

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This is what I don’t understand. Mayer ain’t coming next year. What’s the return? These are all DD guys. If the argument is that we need to wait until 2026, then everyone has lost it.
Whose argument?
 

JCizzle

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Almost nobody from the farm system helped the team for multiple years after DD left...

I expect lots of people Bloom has acquired to help the team after he leaves. Most of the people Bloom has drafted are proceeding about how one would expect based on the draft capital used or better, & there are lots of interesting IFAs who obviously can't possibly be ready to help in this time frame.

But again... I've never said Bloom shouldn't have been fired. But actual experts think we have a top 5 system, including intriguing pitching prospects. So the criticisms of people who don't even pay attention to our farm system don't really hold a lot of weight for me.
When do you expect those pitchers to actually contribute? At least in the high minors I didn’t think there was anyone close, but I definitely could be missing folks
 

chawson

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Am I misunderstanding something here? How could Duran with no arm and other defensive issues be considered a candidate for RF, especially RF in Fenway, in place of Renfroe?

In my first post on the topic, the plan as I see it would have been to play Duran in LF or CF and Kiké or Verdugo in RF. Totally agree that Duran is not a RF.

He wasn’t, it’s just a way to excuse a crappy trade- they gambled that JBJ still had something left in the tank (playing up the necessity of having a CF in RF at Fenway), and he didn’t. Don’t think it’s more complicated than that.
Okay then where would Duran, a then 26-year-old prospect, have gotten PAs in 2022 after putting up a .925 OPS in April/May? Had everyone on the major league roster stayed healthy, that is.
 

JM3

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Right. The farm system was in shambles when DD left, but now things look really good- in large part because of Bello, Casas, Duran, Houck, Crawford, Rafaela, Perales….all guys who were part of that last ranked farm system four years ago.
Only 2 of those guys count toward the prospect rankings, & the biggest issue with the farm system under DD was the development process. It did not appear to be modern.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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But the problem is really bigger than Bloom. The sox have had issues developing home grown pitchers since the late Theo years.(iow spanning multiple GMS)
Absolutely this. Weren't we just saying that Bello is the first SP they've produced since Buchholz? I get that the buck stops with whoever the PBOS is, but at some point someone might need to look at their scouting and player development departments, some of those people have been around since the Theo days.
 

JCizzle

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Only 2 of those guys count toward the prospect rankings, & the biggest issue with the farm system under DD was the development process. It did not appear to be modern.
Why does the prospect ranking matter more than the results? They actually contributed to varying degrees to a big league team. Give me that over a ranking any day of the week!
 

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No. I understand the point.The point is just stupid. They aren't "topping out". They're 20. The fact that y'all don't have any patience doesn't change the fact that the farm system is in a really good place.

I've stated on numerous occasions that I don't think Bloom is special & I'm fine with him being fired.
It’s not about patience. It’s more about pitching and understanding your organization’s weaknesses. The most costly position when it comes to free agency and trading is pitching. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to develop pitching from within the organization rather than go out and find pitching elsewhere? There you’re always paying a premium whether it’s money or prospects.

You can find hitters anywhere but developing low cast pitching talent, especially for a team like the Red Sox who have had a tough time developing pitchers, should have been paramount. Through four drafts it was ignored. And I’m not sure why.
 

Rovin Romine

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You’re completely missing the point. If Bloom is supposed to be a draft guru, then why are the two best pitchers topping out at A+? Like shouldn’t someone be in Portland at least by now?

The amount of excuses Bloom gets on this board is insane.
It's pretty clear that Bloom didn't spend his high numbered draft picks on pitching. That may or may not have been a good strategy, but it's consistent enough that it appears to be a strategy.

Instead, Bloom acquired younger cost-controlled pitchers by means other than the draft.

He inherited Houck and Murphy, took Whitlock via Rule 5, traded for Winckowski, Seabold, Pivetta, etc., signed Bernardino, and pulled Schreiber off the wire.


This is what I don’t understand. Mayer ain’t coming next year. What’s the return? These are all DD guys. If the argument is that we need to wait until 2026, then everyone has lost it.
It sounds like you think Bloom needed to wipe out all of DD's guys and only go with his own draftees. It does not really work that way. Bloom held onto the better prospects in the system (DD picks mostly), then he added more, by both draft and trade (e.g., Abreu and Winckowski). Generally speaking, you should expect the more seasoned prospects in the system to have been coming up in 2020-now, which is what has actually been happening. The point is to have a stockpile of younger talent at different stages of development.

Specifically Bloom took Yorke and Jordan in 2020 - both HS talents that weren't expected to hop into the majors at their current ages of 21 and 20. But both look like good picks.

He took another HS talent in 2021 with Mayer. Who is 20 years old.

In 2022, the top three picks were HS talent: Romero, Coffee, Anthony.

When exactly should we expect these guys up?

But since 2020, Bloom has brought up a lot of guys who were either in the farm or acquired by trade for the farm.
 

moondog80

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They have been but that’s kind of the point. You need a strike a balance between hitting and pitching and Chaim really didn’t in the draft. There are other avenues like international signings to compensate for it but feels like the early returns are light on pitching after 4 years.
It definitely seems like an organizational philosophy to focus on up the middle players in the draft. And given that most of the pitchers in the prospect rankings are international, it’s fair to guess that they think (thought) that’s the correct approach.
 

JM3

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When do you expect those pitchers to actually contribute? At least in the high minors I didn’t think there was anyone close, but I definitely could be missing folks
It depends on how they continue to develop. Drohan is the furthest along & was pitching great in AA, but has pretty much sucked since being promoted to AAA. We'll see if he can develop some more mph in the off season. Van Belle is also in AAA but probably doesn't have the stuff to ever be more than like a 9th starter.

Dobbins & Coffey are both pretty interesting in AA. & Wikelman, but he's a DD guy, too.

The more interesting closer pitchers from the drafts are mostly potential high leverage relievers like Luis Guerrero who was recently promoted to AAA, & Chris Troye/Alex Hoppe in AA.

It's absolutely true the org has focused much more draft capital & IFA money on hitters, but their hit rate on those has been great with guys like Mayer, Anthony, Bleis, Cespedes, Teel & Yorke.

They've gone for more of a quantity approach with the pitchers. It's why I've advocated for free agent starters because they have a lot of cost controlled talent coming in everywhere else, so the budget should be there, & pitching is further away or less elite.
 

JM3

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Why does the prospect ranking matter more than the results? They actually contributed to varying degrees to a big league team. Give me that over a ranking any day of the week!
It doesn't, but when I say they have a top 5 farm system, it doesn't even include all the guys they've recently graduated. It puts the whole org in a better place.
 

JM3

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It’s not about patience. It’s more about pitching and understanding your organization’s weaknesses. The most costly position when it comes to free agency and trading is pitching. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to develop pitching from within the organization rather than go out and find pitching elsewhere? There you’re always paying a premium whether it’s money or prospects.

You can find hitters anywhere but developing low cast pitching talent, especially for a team like the Red Sox who have had a tough time developing pitchers, should have been paramount. Through four drafts it was ignored. And I’m not sure why.
Smh
 

BringBackMo

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If I’m being honest, I think that Bloom is getting a ton of credit for rebuilding the farm system that I’m not sure he totally deserves. Sure the young hitting looks decent but where’s the pitching? Because of that I think the fifth place ranking is very optimistic.

I think most people are being nice to a guy that just got fired and didn’t want to pigpile on him. And when Cherington got the axe people said the same thing about him. After four or five years he was seen as a bit of a disappointment, which I have a feeling that Bloom was be seen as.

So there you go.
I suggest you spend a LOT more time looking at the pitching that just reached Portland and Greenville.
 

Rovin Romine

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I recall that everyone thought that Cora was bluffing when he said that JBJ was going to be the RF, but he wasn’t.

It was either a miscalculation of the FA market or a poor evaluation of JBJ’s talent level. He made the major league team actively worse for the cost of JBJ’s contract and some very middling prospects.
They went over the cap, without having RF insurance. . .so I think that's most likely a JBJ misevaluation.

I mean, I like the concept of taking an older player who is probably due to rebound and some prospects, but the particulars of this one were just bad, bad, and meh. (Although Hamilton and Binelas aren't quite dead yet.)
 
The SoxProspects podcast discussed this a couple of weeks ago: Under Bloom, the Sox front office seems to have determined that in the U.S. draft, the stakes (and costs) are too high to go all in on a pitcher who may or may not pan out. So the Red Sox have looked instead for pitchers in the international draft. Those players are cheaper; they're also much younger. You're drafting them at 16 or 17 years old, and that's why they're generally not in the majors four years later.
 

Auger34

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In my first post on the topic, the plan as I see it would have been to play Duran in LF or CF and Kiké or Verdugo in RF. Totally agree that Duran is not a RF.



Okay then where would Duran, a then 26-year-old prospect, have gotten PAs in 2022 after putting up a .925 OPS in April/May? Had everyone on the major league roster stayed healthy, that is.
I am not sure I understand your point and if I do understand your point, that you literally have to save ABs for prospects at the level of Duran, I’m extremely happy you’re nowhere near the Front Office because that’s how you get fired
 

BigSoxFan

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It definitely seems like an organizational philosophy to focus on up the middle players in the draft. And given that most of the pitchers in the prospect rankings are international, it’s fair to guess that they think (thought) that’s the correct approach.
Yup. I think the overall value of those drafts will remain quite good but it’s skewed on one side. I honestly have no idea how GMs get any sleep. The constant juggling of needs/resources has to be exhausting, especially in a pressure cooker like Boston. Here’s to hoping that our impression of Chaim becomes more favorable over time. Definitely possible.
 

Auger34

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Almost nobody from the farm system helped the team for multiple years after DD left...

I expect lots of people Bloom has acquired to help the team after he leaves. Most of the people Bloom has drafted are proceeding about how one would expect based on the draft capital used or better, & there are lots of interesting IFAs who obviously can't possibly be ready to help in this time frame.

But again... I've never said Bloom shouldn't have been fired. But actual experts think we have a top 5 system, including intriguing pitching prospects. So the criticisms of people who don't even pay attention to our farm system don't really hold a lot of weight for me.
All of these expert say we are heavy on hitting prospects and really light on pitching…which is what people on this thread are saying
 

Auger34

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Why are you SMYH?

I mean if you have deep baseball knowledge, share it Branch Rickey. C’mon.

You’re the one that’s having an existential crisis with Bloom getting canned. Explain to me what I’m missing.
I don’t think it’s @JM3. The people you should be questioning are @BringBackMo and @chawson…who seem to be fighting tooth and nail that Bloom was actually great and we are all missing something
 

Manzivino

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When do you expect those pitchers to actually contribute? At least in the high minors I didn’t think there was anyone close, but I definitely could be missing folks
For starters Gonzalez should be knocking on the door next summer, Monegro and Perales ‘25 or mid ‘26.For late inning relievers Guerrero should be up next year, Troye by ‘25. The thing to keep in mind is that pitchers can move through the ranks aggressively with the minors the way they are now, Bello started 2021 in High A and was in Boston by July 2022.
 

Benj4ever

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From Fangraphs:

"Imagine trading Mookie Betts. Chaim Bloom must have done that, must have considered all of the angles and potential outcomes of such a move, including the possibility that he would be saddled with it as his legacy — then sold principal owner John Henry on a vision of the Red Sox without the superstar right fielder in order to be hired as the team’s chief baseball officer in October 2019."

They've got this entirely backwards. The ownership didn't want to move forward with Dombrowski's high-spending ways, so they fired him. They then went out and hand-picked a guy who would rebuild the team through the farm system (and Bloom was an ideal fit). How on earth Fangraphs got the impression that it was the other way around is beyond me. The story they tell is absolutely ludicrous.
 

JM3

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Why are you SMYH?

I mean if you have deep baseball knowledge, share it Branch Rickey. C’mon.

You’re the one that’s having an existential crisis with Bloom getting canned. Explain to me what I’m missing.
You do not read things. There is no point in saying things for the 800th time.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,425
I don’t think it’s @JM3. The people you should be questioning are @BringBackMo and @chawson…who seem to be fighting tooth and nail that Bloom was actually great and we are all missing something
You’re probably right. Whatever. It ultimately doesn’t matter. It’s just a bunch of Sox fans talking about things we have no real idea about on a Saturday night.
 
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