This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots
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I am amazed at the vitriol directed at a coach who governed the greatest football dynasty ever. Brady was amazing; a great leader; but to think he was single-handedly responsible for covering up the Wizard of Oz’s mistakes is very strange to me.
Truth seems to be that many fans have really disliked BB for years. Even in the heart of the dynasty, many fans I met in person and on this forum said they’d have preferred Rex Ryan, or almost anyone else with more charisma and bravado.
In the end the knives will always come out. “Like Caesar he is surrounded by enemies…” (Mr X)
I understand the feeling that the end is near, and the present isn’t pretty, so maybe now is the time to part ways. But why tar and feather him on the way out?
I applaud all of you your fandom, but I really don’t think BB is getting his due here. Just my opinion.
PS and when he goes to the Jets…look out.
Oh good, now we're likening BB to Julius Caesar.
You're right, how dare we criticize the architect of a 2-7 team. Bottom of the AFC. 2nd worst point differential in the league. Keep your mouth shut, this is BB we're talking about.
This season is not going to end well for the Pats and BB, and it's going to be very interesting to see who the fans of the team vs. the coach are. I suspect if BB leaves after this season this board will create a bit of a civil war. The generals of each army have already started forming.
You're right, how dare we criticize the architect of a 2-7 team. Bottom of the AFC. 2nd worst point differential in the league. Keep your mouth shut, this is BB we're talking about.
This season is not going to end well for the Pats and BB, and it's going to be very interesting to see who the fans of the team vs. the coach are. I suspect if BB leaves after this season this board will create a bit of a civil war. The generals of each army have already started forming.
It's one thing to take the position that Bill's time has come. It's arguable, but I can understand the reasons posters and fans think it's time to move on.
But the revisionist history of some here by claiming it was all Brady is truly the theater of the absurd. Last I checked, Brady didn't draft Gronk or Wilfork or Edelman; doubt Brady drafted the defensive game plans against the Rams. I'm sure I'll be told that those either didn't count or were examples of where Bill got "lucky".
You could see the seeds of BB hate even before Brady left. Nothing like today of course. But the threads tend to border unreadable at times bc of how unreasonable certain posters are. It’s like some want BB to be run of town on a rail. I’d rather him turn the program around starting tomorrow morning. Which btw is not the same as saying it’s not time to move on.
Be careful what we wish for? Do we think Belichick is gonna start winning Super bowls as an octogenarian with the jets and we are gonna rue the day we let him go? It was an incredible 20 year ride but it’s over and time to move on. Don’t think that’s really vitriol or hate.
Your post—and that sentiment—isn’t vitriolic at all. And I feel the way that Riboflav and lexrageorge do, I think, in that it is arguably time to move on. And I guess I’m sad about it, but that’s my problem. Not everyone feels attached to the guy. I do.
I think he might have one more Super Bowl left in him, but that’s likely superfan talk. I doubt anyone is going to rue letting BB go at this stage…
(And If the Caesar analogy rankles, my apologies. I wasn’t being too serious…I just wanted to quote Donald Sutherland from JFK.)
I agree that it does feel sad to potentially move on- but also think that holding on is also a way of clinging to a past that we can’t admit is gone and not coming back. Be careful what you wish for, no guarantee that the new guy will be better, etc etc. is all true but eventually, as fans and as an organization, everyone will have to move on. It doesn’t lessen the greatness and accomplishments of the past…but it really is inevitable. Sadly, it probably won’t end in a way that all parties are happy about.
For many years, other great coaches were mocked because BB was so obviously better than them. I think it’s fairly obvious now with the pre Brady, Brady, post Brady record that he is a lot closer to those other coaches and he had a great marriage with a special player. The resume is still the resume but Brady getting out of dodge and getting Bruce Arians a SB no problem when Brady was well past his prime is information that has to matter in this analysis.
Most of us aren't doing revisionist history here. The sacred text of Brady and BB creating this dynasty is well-preserved among astute fans.
BB's history has nothing to do with what is going on right now. This is a talent-less team, created by a broken organization. What BB and a talented org did in the past has nothing to do with what is going on right now. This team is a bottom-tier run organization, and defending the legacy of BB has nothing to do with what is happening right now.
Don't forget all the players on defense. Seymour, Wilfork, Vrabel, Ninkovich, McCourty, Hightower, all frauds.
It's a hysterical post and would've either resulted in a poster being suspended or at least shamed greatly if made years ago. Maybe on the main board. IDK. But's it such a straw man hyperbolic rant of emotion. It's one thing in the game threads but here it makes this forum almost unreadable because he's not alone.
There are kids in college who weren't born when he drafted Wilfork. It's completely irrelevant to 2024.
Red Auerbach was amazing but they shouldn't have let him draft Joe Forte.
I love the “be careful what you wish for” sentiment. Belichick is 72 in April. This job is an absolute grind. At some point, his decline will happen. It may already be happening.
We know GM Bill’s decisions have been poor recently, in some cases very poor. I think he has a lot to offer still as a coach. I’m just ready for a new voice and direction with respect player personnel. Nobody expects the next GM to draft a bunch of HOFers but it may be time for a fresh voice there.
It wouldn’t shock me in the least if he performed well in a different environment, similar to Brady in Tampa. The odds of Kraft finding a better coach is very slim. The odds of him finding a better GM or comparable GM aren’t as slim. If Kraft wants to run it back one final time with BB having a high pick and cash to spend in FA, I’ll be ok with it. But I wouldn’t be without doubts and my blind trust in his personnel decision-making has eroded a bit.
We know GM Bill’s decisions have been poor recently, in some cases very poor. I think he has a lot to offer still as a coach. I’m just ready for a new voice and direction with respect player personnel. Nobody expects the next GM to draft a bunch of HOFers but it may be time for a fresh voice there.
It wouldn’t shock me in the least if he performed well in a different environment, similar to Brady in Tampa. The odds of Kraft finding a better coach is very slim. The odds of him finding a better GM or comparable GM aren’t as slim. If Kraft wants to run it back one final time with BB having a high pick and cash to spend in FA, I’ll be ok with it. But I wouldn’t be without doubts and my blind trust in his personnel decision-making has eroded a bit.
There are 2 different anti-Belichick arguments being presented in these Belichick threads. One is that the 6 Super Bowls were entirely Brady and Belichick was just along for the ride. The other is that he's incapable of rebuilding the roster into a contender again.
My post was in response to the former argument.
This hits it succinctly I think. Regarding the latter, let's have a reasonable back and forth. I'm open to him no longer being capable. And, btw, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that it's very hard to replace a legend with someone even competent. But, regarding the former, this is the stuff of stupid hot takes that this board should not tolerate. It is not nuanced or well-reasoned or well-explained usually and flies in the face of the evidence of both Rams Super Bowls. If posters feel strongly that BB was always just an average NFL coach they should start a new thread and make their case with evidence.
I've walked the halls of the Pats Hall of Fame and I love what BB did. I will never revise a history of anything he did during the dynasty. But he had a QB and many, many other people who have long since retired who contributed mightily to that effort. BB was not a singular coach, he had a ton of people working for him.
I will, however, look at how he's handled the organization since Brady has left. And more importantly, I'll look at the current state of the organization. The decline in offensive talent, the coaching decisions, the choice to build an organization with his friends, sons, etc. It's resulted in garbage.
You CANNOT give BB a top 3-4 pick next year with all of this garbage coaching and scouting and expect this to magically turn into BB Super Bowl magic. That magic was Brady. BB is a great coach but he's taken his complete control of the org and driven it into the ground.
This team is going back to work in approximately 8 hours so I guess we'll evaluate more then.
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So all of this garbage coaching is part of the problem, but BB is a great coach?
And we CANNOT give BB a top pick, but we’re going to evaluate more in 8 hours?
I legit feel bad for you, man. Like, if you wanna be upset about the team’s suckitude, cool, but you really don’t have to do all the mental gymnastics. Just be upset.
You have made your views, of which you appear to be pretty damn certain, abundantly clear here. If some posters aren't smart like you and only think with their hearts, not sure your logic will reach them.
More to the point, BB doesn't answer to anyone in this forum. It kind of feels like your message is being wasted here.
Back on topic, its probably safe to say that the Krafts are contemplating some sort of change. Whether that entails losing BB is to be seen but these thinly sourced quotes/characterization of thinking of those around the team seem kind of obvious. Of course a parting of the ways is on the table. I'd guess its been for a while now if only because of the ages of all those involved. We know some posters are ready to move on but again, maybe the Krafts aren't, even if the Pats don't win again this season.
I mean, you didn't look at my post and respond in good faith. You moved responses to other replies. No offense, but get the fuck out with this kind of post.
Your reply is poorly formed. Seriously, what is your take on BB and what Kraft should do?
We know your take. You won't stop repeating it every 3 seconds all over the forum. Even when people continually point out the stupidity of the shit you're saying - he doesn't draft well, the team has no talent, etc etc - you just ignore them and double down with stunning confidence.
There's a handful of people doing this in the forum, and you're driving any actual conversation out of it by trying to shout the loudest and most often. Please shut up for a little bit.
Nobody cares about my take but I don't agree that BB is washed or a product of Tom Brady. If the Krafts decide to move on, its understandable but aside from these news "blurbs" we have no idea what their current mindset is.
It’s really bad timing that BB lost Brady as he was entering the twilight of his career.
I don’t say that disparagingly. Even if Bill was crushing it he’d still only have a few more years left.
And Bill wouldn’t be the first legend to fade as he got near the end. The guy who holds the record he’s chasing certainly did. So did Landry, and a multitude of others. It’s what happens.
It’s a bummer because it gives fodder to the dopes to say “See! He was a .500 coach all along!!”
I really wish he was winning 8-9 games a year so he could grind through the next 2 seasons, get the record, and retire in glory.
He hasn’t been good since 2021, and I’d still let him coach next year if he wants. I get moving on too, but I’m not passionate about it. I’m going to be sad when he’s gone. We’ll be just another franchise then.
I don’t say that disparagingly. Even if Bill was crushing it he’d still only have a few more years left.
And Bill wouldn’t be the first legend to fade as he got near the end. The guy who holds the record he’s chasing certainly did. So did Landry, and a multitude of others. It’s what happens.
It’s a bummer because it gives fodder to the dopes to say “See! He was a .500 coach all along!!”
I really wish he was winning 8-9 games a year so he could grind through the next 2 seasons, get the record, and retire in glory.
He hasn’t been good since 2021, and I’d still let him coach next year if he wants. I get moving on too, but I’m not passionate about it. I’m going to be sad when he’s gone. We’ll be just another franchise then.
I'm not saying anything a large handful of people aren't already saying. You, of all posters, have BB on the highest of all high pedestals, untouchable as a football god and discussion of his failure seems to hit the hardest for you. You're one of the true diehards who doesn't want to hear any disparage of BB. I get it, but I'm not going to stop posting my opinions because you don't like to see them.
Nobody saw this season coming and a lot of the BB diehards are having a tough time squaring the circle when it comes to football universal truths they have held for decades. We were fed stories that BB could turn chicken shit into chicken salad, that he could take yours'n and beat his'n and vice versa, that letting Brady go made sense because BB was the institution that would keep the ship afloat. The data is flowing in to the contrary and the scramble to explain it has heightened.
Record-wise, sure. But thats not what I mean. There’s always going to be disproportionate attention paid to the franchise because of Bill’s presence. He’s largely acknowledged as the greatest head coach of all time. That makes a team relevant regardless of record.
Once he’s gone, and we’ve replaced him with the next Dom Capers, then we’ll go back to just being another one of the 32.
Even during Shula’s decline the Dolphins were The Dolphins. Then he left and they were just another team.
The Patriots are literally the worst team in the AFC with the worst record AND point differential. They aren't just another team, they are the Jets.
Sigh.
No, they’re not a franchise with a mult-decade history of incompetence and failure.
Not yet, anyway.
The reason that some of us are cautioning fans to "be careful what you wish for" is that many NFL franchises go through extended droughts of playoff success once they move on from their winning coach or GM. Consider:
Giants, commonly thought of as a premier franchise, have won all of one playoff game since Manningham made his crazy side catch in 2011. The Dallas Cowboys, laughably called "America's Team" by uninformed mediots, have gone 5-12 in the playoffs since their 1995 Super Bowl victory, never making it to the NFCCG and missing the playoffs entirely 15 seasons in that span. The vaunted Baltimore Ravens have gone 2-5 in the playoffs since their last Lombardi with 5 playoff DNQ's. The Steelers, a franchise that gets brought up frequently here, won their last playoff game in 2016, right before being trounced by the Pats in the AFCCG.
Some(*) of those teams do indeed have a brighter future than the Pats appear to do, which is why fans and SoSH posters are rightfully upset. And that starts to matter more than the past decades of the team's success. Just saying that the playoff drought can be lengthy, and the eventual successor is by no means guaranteed to fix that problem.
*: Of the teams mentioned, the Ravens seem most likely to march into the playoffs. Steelers and Cowboys have a season long dogfight ahead of them to qualify. Giants are crapping for Caleb.
Giants, commonly thought of as a premier franchise, have won all of one playoff game since Manningham made his crazy side catch in 2011. The Dallas Cowboys, laughably called "America's Team" by uninformed mediots, have gone 5-12 in the playoffs since their 1995 Super Bowl victory, never making it to the NFCCG and missing the playoffs entirely 15 seasons in that span. The vaunted Baltimore Ravens have gone 2-5 in the playoffs since their last Lombardi with 5 playoff DNQ's. The Steelers, a franchise that gets brought up frequently here, won their last playoff game in 2016, right before being trounced by the Pats in the AFCCG.
Some(*) of those teams do indeed have a brighter future than the Pats appear to do, which is why fans and SoSH posters are rightfully upset. And that starts to matter more than the past decades of the team's success. Just saying that the playoff drought can be lengthy, and the eventual successor is by no means guaranteed to fix that problem.
*: Of the teams mentioned, the Ravens seem most likely to march into the playoffs. Steelers and Cowboys have a season long dogfight ahead of them to qualify. Giants are crapping for Caleb.
Like @Kenny F'ing Powers said, the Veruca Salt routine is annoying as hell. I get it, people want to win early and often. But let’s not get in over our heads with this, eh?
In 2023, they are the Jets. The joke of the league and everyone IS laughing. It doesn't mean next year is lost, but this roster is bereft of talent and there is nothing to really fall back on.
The Patriots have not drafted an offensive pro bowl starter since 2010. That is multi decade. Tom Brady covered up a lot of these failures. But now the tide is out and everyone is naked.
Is anyone even arguing the any successor is guaranteed to do better? Everyone knows how sports team management works. There’s always risk in change. I have confidence in the ownership group who brought us BB is capable of running another successful search. Of course, that was likely Robert Kraft and he himself has some age-related concern. We’re in uncharted territory right now but it’s not like BB is coaching until 85 nor do we want that.
If we could separate the GM and coaching duties, I’d be all for BB staying. I think the combination might just be too much for someone his age. Coaching alone is an 80-100 hour / week job.
Laughing? Who cares? Let them laugh. It’s a lousy year. Whatever.
Look, my point was a simple one: Bill’s the GOAT and as long as he’s roaming the sidelines for us the Patriots will receive a lot of attention. We’ll matter. Good or bad. Laughing or for serious.
When he’s gone we’ll just be a team. And if we don’t win we’ll get no attention whatsoever. Just like when I was a kid and the Sears Xmas catalog didn’t carry Pats gear in most of their NFL collection.
That’s it. That’s what I’m saying. Scream from the rooftops that we should ride Bill outta town on a rail, that’s your prerogative.
The bolded is crazy. The NFL is so much bigger now than it was then. Even if the Patriots are just another team there will still be plenty of virtual ink spilled on them just like any other team in the NFL because the NFL is a juggernaut.
Nobody knows if it was just Brady. They've also recently lost Scar, Ernie, Josh, Fears and probably others in a relatively short time, and roughly all shortly after losing Brady. It's very hard to lose all of that institutional knowledge and probably very hard to find new people that can digest Bill's message and then bring it to life in their area of responsibility. I think Bill just lost too many key people (people he not only chose, but also developed over many years) too soon. Add in a little bad luck, and we have the current poop show.
And I'm ok moving on from Bill. This is a multi-year rebuild at this point, and unless he's going to coach into his late 70s I don't see the point of not ripping the band-aid off right now.
But this revisionist crap about Bill is gross. And Salva disappeared from this board for a long time because Bill and the Pats made him taste their ass with 3 more Superbowl wins after he was positive that "the window" was closed years ago. Him coming back now and circling like a vulture is pathetic.
And I'm ok moving on from Bill. This is a multi-year rebuild at this point, and unless he's going to coach into his late 70s I don't see the point of not ripping the band-aid off right now.
But this revisionist crap about Bill is gross. And Salva disappeared from this board for a long time because Bill and the Pats made him taste their ass with 3 more Superbowl wins after he was positive that "the window" was closed years ago. Him coming back now and circling like a vulture is pathetic.
For the people who say it was all Brady, who drafted Brady? And then who gave a late round nobody the starting job, jettisoning fan favorite Drew Bledsoe?
Even revisionist Pats historians have to give BB some credit for this.
Even revisionist Pats historians have to give BB some credit for this.
Bill with Brady was almost .800 winning percentage. Without him, it's .460.
Since Brady left, Tom won 5 playoff games and a super bowl. Made the playoffs every year. The Pats have made the playoffs once and got smoked like salami in the game.
It was Brady.
edit - to clarify, it was more Brady than Belichick. Belichick is still a true master at defense and he's an excellent coach. But the 20 year run was Brady more than Bill.
Of course. I’m aware of the media environment. That little item about the Sears catalog was hyperbole. We do that here from time to time.
Again, since Brady left, a lot of other key people left. Of course Brady was hugely important, not going to deny that. But he didn't defend the other side of the field, or catch his own passes, or do the countless other things necessary to build and manage a multi-decade run of excellence.
Nah, don’t edit, double down baby! Dom Capers would have six Super Bowl rings right now if we hired him in 2000!
JFC there is absolutely nothing in my posting history that suggests I was calling the window "closed" years ago. I've been here since 2008 posting about this team and my absences have nothing to do with the performance of the team. I'm getting personally attacked and it needs to stop.
How many Divisional Round games has Belichick won without Tom Brady as a head coach?
Zero.
In fact, he's made the divisional round once without Brady. He has a total of 1 playoff win without Brady. In 10 seasons without Brady, there are two playoff appearances and one win. His winning percentage is significantly worse without Brady.
These stats are tough to argue against. Without Brady, lifetime winning percentage of .458. With Brady, .769.
So you are arguing that most coaches would have had the same level of success if they had also had the foresight to draft Brady, keep him on the team even though he was a fourth/stringer, then dump Bledsoe in favor of Brady when they had the chance, and then kept Brady for twenty years. OK. Not buying it, but OK.
edit- if your point is that players are more valuable than coaches, well that is something I agree with. And as far as I can tell, so does Belichick. Not an earth-shaking point but I agree.
It’s not that simple though. Bill seemed to be building something in Cleveland before the owner decided he was moving the team which created a turbulent situation for the whole organization and likely doomed that season. Also Bill went 11-5 with Matt Cassel at Quarterback.
If we were splitting the credit, Brady would deserve more and I think Bill would agree. But Brady wasn’t all of it.
You're creating this really fucking bizarre strawman and trying to paint the entire forum through that lens. It's seriously detracting from the forum.
I'm more than willing to acknowledge BBs faults and have done so on multiple occasions. You, however, refuse to converse. When posters provide thorough data on the Patriots drafting relatively well compared to the rest of the league...you still talk about how he can't draft. When people point out that they have a young, cheap, and very talented defense - Barmore, White, Judon, Jones 1, Jones 2, Gonzalez...you still talk about how the team is bereft of talent.
What you're doing is disingenuous and reduces the level of conversation on this forum.
What the fuck are you talking about? This entire strawman is tedious.
"All you BB diehards!"
"Football universal truths held for decades!"
"We were fed stories that BB could turn chicken shit into chicken salad."
Whatever "data is flowing in the contrary direction" is missing from your posts and replaced with a bunch of empty bullshit. Since you haven't ACTUALLY said anything, let me focus you on what most people's point is:
BB has not performed to standards the last few seasons, particularly with team discipline and execution. That said, the defense is in a good spot and, of all the problems on this team, BB isn't one of the biggest issues to address. There have been multiple departures and the team gave the last few seasons to see if their young QB is the QB of the future (which is the right choice). There is no evidence that BB will make a poor decision with a top 5 pick, and I trust him over hiring an entirely new operational and coaching staff.
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You are right, it isn't that simple. Belichick is a hall of fame coach.
But the Matt Cassel year was 15 years ago. Bill is old and doing it the way he did it in 2004. But you can't do it that way, anymore. It happens to every coach.
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