Dale: you know there is no such award as Patriot of the Week award. Seth: that's what people in the building said. Dale: the people in the building are telling you the wrong stuff Seth
GO DALE GO
GO DALE GO
This year's ESPN hit piece
- Thread starter Dr. Gonzo
- Start date
Just tuned in on EEI. This guy sounds like a total clown. The Patriot of the Week question was hilarious. "You know it doesn't exist, right?"
All things considered, Wickersham is handling himself ok here. Is everything 100% true in his article? Of course not. But it's obvious some stuff is open for debate.
So his sources are cooks and bus boys? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I work near Trump Towers; guess I can write an article on presidential intrigue now. Heard those books are hot at the moment.
Of course some of the stuff is up for debate. Two other writers covered the same things. It still doesn’t take away from the nonsense that he filled his article with.
According to @SethWickersham on @DaleHolleyWEEI, Tom Brady last won Patriots Practice Player of the Week during the week leading up to last season's AFC Championship Game. Wrong again, Seth
You realize why that's a problem though right?
If we determine his sources made shit up (Patriot of the Week) then why are any sources believable?
A tell of what, exactly? No one has convincingly put forth what the "plan" would have been had Brady allegedly not interfered - franchise JG (and cripple the 2018 team) and then...do all this again next year? Trade Brady at that point (and either trade him while he is still good or sell low if Brady shows significant signs of aging)? The fact of the matter is the timing with JG simply didn't work out.
Exactly. The tell is the timing didn't work out, and that he didn't think Brissett was worth it / would have been cut anyway. Whatever.
When they draft Baker Mayfield, I hope Kevin Faulk announces the pick with a "shout out to Seth Wickersham".
Providence Journal:
--The ESPN story states that Belichick had a meeting with Kraft to discuss the current quarterback situation. When the meeting ended, Belichick had a “mandate” to trade Garoppolo and he did, by shipping the young QB to the San Francisco 49ers at the NFL trade deadline. Multiple sources deny that ever happened. One saying, it’s simply untrue. Those speaking with The Providence Journal say they’d be shocked if Kraft forced Belichick to trade anyone. One thought is that if that happened, Belichick would resign.
-- Brady never demanded that the Patriots trade the young backup, either, according to a source. That’s never been the quarterback’s style. He has never demanded that the Patriots sign or trade anyone. According to an ESPN report, Garoppolo turned down an offer from the Patriots in the range of $17-to-18 million “for reasons that remain unclear.” According to a source, Garoppolo never turned down such an offer because the Patriots never sent Garoppolo a formal offer at any point in the past four seasons. The ESPN story also depicts a situation that happened with Garoppolo and the TB12 Center. After injuring his shoulder last season, the article states that the quarterback was locked out of the center in Patriot Place, forcing a high-ranking Patriots staffer to call and ask why Garoppolo wasn’t admitted. According to multiple sources, Garoppolo visited the TB 12 Center to receive treatement before and after his shoulder injury. He even had his own passkey to enter the facility.
--ESPN’s story also talks about the Brady-Belichick relationship being severely fractured this season. That relationship has always been professional in nature. The pair aren’t viewed as extremely close off the field, but the relationship works when it comes to football. That player-coach dynamic has lasted for 18 years, culminating in five Super Bowl championships and survived several controversies (DeflateGate and SpyGate). Although this season has presented some challenges, we’ve been told that the relationship isn’t so fractured that either would leave because of drama. If either were to step away from football, it’d be more likely that age (Brady is 40 and Belichick is 65) would be the main reason. Although things can change in a heartbeat in the NFL, expect the Belichick-Brady combo to be back in 2018.
http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/20180105/patriots-we-stand-united-in-wake-of-espn-report
--The ESPN story states that Belichick had a meeting with Kraft to discuss the current quarterback situation. When the meeting ended, Belichick had a “mandate” to trade Garoppolo and he did, by shipping the young QB to the San Francisco 49ers at the NFL trade deadline. Multiple sources deny that ever happened. One saying, it’s simply untrue. Those speaking with The Providence Journal say they’d be shocked if Kraft forced Belichick to trade anyone. One thought is that if that happened, Belichick would resign.
-- Brady never demanded that the Patriots trade the young backup, either, according to a source. That’s never been the quarterback’s style. He has never demanded that the Patriots sign or trade anyone. According to an ESPN report, Garoppolo turned down an offer from the Patriots in the range of $17-to-18 million “for reasons that remain unclear.” According to a source, Garoppolo never turned down such an offer because the Patriots never sent Garoppolo a formal offer at any point in the past four seasons. The ESPN story also depicts a situation that happened with Garoppolo and the TB12 Center. After injuring his shoulder last season, the article states that the quarterback was locked out of the center in Patriot Place, forcing a high-ranking Patriots staffer to call and ask why Garoppolo wasn’t admitted. According to multiple sources, Garoppolo visited the TB 12 Center to receive treatement before and after his shoulder injury. He even had his own passkey to enter the facility.
--ESPN’s story also talks about the Brady-Belichick relationship being severely fractured this season. That relationship has always been professional in nature. The pair aren’t viewed as extremely close off the field, but the relationship works when it comes to football. That player-coach dynamic has lasted for 18 years, culminating in five Super Bowl championships and survived several controversies (DeflateGate and SpyGate). Although this season has presented some challenges, we’ve been told that the relationship isn’t so fractured that either would leave because of drama. If either were to step away from football, it’d be more likely that age (Brady is 40 and Belichick is 65) would be the main reason. Although things can change in a heartbeat in the NFL, expect the Belichick-Brady combo to be back in 2018.
http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/20180105/patriots-we-stand-united-in-wake-of-espn-report
Nobody really knows anything except the principals.
That said, it would not be entirely shocking if BBs relationship with either/both Brady and Kraft has deteriorated to the point where he is ready to go, especially if he had designs on going in a different direction at QB sooner rather than later.
The actual story itself may be sensationalized and the sourcing questionable. However long term working relationships tend to wear thin over time and given what all three men have accomplished, it's not difficult to imagine a scenario where one or more parties is no longer interested in finding a compromise.
To be clear, absent this piece, there is no indication that Kraft, BB and Brady are at that point. However the end is coming even if most Patriots fans dread it.
That said, it would not be entirely shocking if BBs relationship with either/both Brady and Kraft has deteriorated to the point where he is ready to go, especially if he had designs on going in a different direction at QB sooner rather than later.
The actual story itself may be sensationalized and the sourcing questionable. However long term working relationships tend to wear thin over time and given what all three men have accomplished, it's not difficult to imagine a scenario where one or more parties is no longer interested in finding a compromise.
To be clear, absent this piece, there is no indication that Kraft, BB and Brady are at that point. However the end is coming even if most Patriots fans dread it.
Oh, so they wouldn't go on the record, but they'd meet in person with a well-known ESPN reporter near their office in a town without a ton going on where they were probably known to the local restaurant workers if they were anybodies with the team.
As for their relationships; do any of these guys seem that friendly or like they have/have had/or care about having a bunch of friends?
Dale & Holley now discussing whether the local media has characterized this as a difficult season - answer being a resounding NO. That the Guerrero stuff has been prevalent, sure, but not threatening to rip the team apart
Edit: also ripping apart the "bad read" on the Hogan injury play
Edit: also ripping apart the "bad read" on the Hogan injury play
Jesus. There are multiple NFL teams who dont really have 1 quarterback right now, and its a "big tell" that BB doesn't have 2 to carry the team through the next 10 years?
Some, possibly even a lot, of this can be legitimate differences in perspective about how something went down.
For instance, I think one topic that's legitimately interesting in this article is the idea that one reason so many guys were going to TB12 was that you had a lot of younger/newer receivers trying to "build trust" with Brady, especially once Edelman went down, and feeling some kind of pressure to try it. You can see how that could create strain in the eyes of some people (trainers, etc.) and resentment toward Brady -- but you could also see why Brady would have zero idea that was the reason it was happening. Reporting the former doesn't mean it was "wrong."
Completely agree with this. The only stuff in the entire piece that passes the smell test to me are the Guerrero portions. It seems like he is the source of tension between Belichick and Brady (and when I say tension, I don't mean it like Wickyleaks does, I would think its a normal amount of tension for people together that long)
All the other "reporting" seems like it is taking innocuous incidents or normal conversations and spinning them to be proof that "the empire is crumbling from within"
JG has already made SF probably the biggest player in FA next year. They pick a top tier WR like Watkins they could break out.
How reasonably can this be a hit piece?
And if B.B. and Goodell met and are now tight, I think that is splendid news.
Bedard did a good Q&A with subscribers to his site on this. He included these nuggets, somewhat in contrast to the hypothesis a few had posted about possible sources (then again, he actually read the Wickersham piece unlike some who have been posting about it...)
I find value in the site and recommend to thoughtful Pats fans. Obviously, Bedard doesn't know Wickersham's sources though he was consistently complimentary of Wickersham throughout the chat.
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2018/01/05/live-qa-bedard-patriotsespn-story-9-m/
I find value in the site and recommend to thoughtful Pats fans. Obviously, Bedard doesn't know Wickersham's sources though he was consistently complimentary of Wickersham throughout the chat.
The ProJo article is a nice contrast. Consider how they refute the fake news about Garappolo being locked out of TB12:
That line makes it clear that multiple sources back up the statement. Sure, they are anonymous sources. But at least we know the author of the ProJo article is relying on sources to make that statement.
Look at the Wickersham hack job:
Nothing that says "according to a source". Which means that the above is nothing more than speculation based on what a source told the author. Of course, we don't know what the source told the author, because nothing was quoted.
This sounds right. And who cares if its a "hit piece." If it is a "hit piece" because Wickersham hates Brady's guts because he had a MAGA hat, BUT it's accurate, so what?
Oh, the horror... the Patriots have struggled their way to the #1 seed and tied for the best record in the NFL. Things are just falling apart at the seams.
I've thought the Patriots had a perfect plan. They kept JG until the very last moment - as insurance for an injured or ineffective Brady... then moved him when they decided a) Brady was playing well and would return AND b) the 2nd round pick was more valuable than just a 2nd half of the season with JG as insurance. Hoyer is the injury/insurance plan if Brady gets hurts this year or next... but one would assume the Pats will draft a new QB they expect to be ready for the start of the 19-20 season. I can't see anything illogical or unprepared in that plan. In most scenarios, JG's career does line up for him to be the successor. In this case, because TB is so damn good... it didn't. Such is life.
I've thought the Patriots had a perfect plan. They kept JG until the very last moment - as insurance for an injured or ineffective Brady... then moved him when they decided a) Brady was playing well and would return AND b) the 2nd round pick was more valuable than just a 2nd half of the season with JG as insurance. Hoyer is the injury/insurance plan if Brady gets hurts this year or next... but one would assume the Pats will draft a new QB they expect to be ready for the start of the 19-20 season. I can't see anything illogical or unprepared in that plan. In most scenarios, JG's career does line up for him to be the successor. In this case, because TB is so damn good... it didn't. Such is life.
Ryan is virtually certain to be tagged, no?
I know he had a bad year, but in a world where f’n Kirk Cousins gets tagged twice, I can’t imagine Ryan will be available, unless he completely falls apart next season.
Except that some of the evidence that there is this big rift between Kraft, Belichick and Brady has already been refuted.
The end of the line for Brady, Belichick, and even Kraft will be here soon enough. However, that topic is orthogonal to whether there is an irreparable fracture in their relationship, which does not appear to be the case at all.
Just for comparison's sake --
Michael Wolff, who had first-hand knowledge and direct connections within the Trump White House, is still getting reamed about the believeability of his major portions of his book.
Wickersham, by contrast, is relying on second-hand and third-hand sources for what is little more than gossip.
Sounds to me like Wickersham is getting off pretty easy here.
Michael Wolff, who had first-hand knowledge and direct connections within the Trump White House, is still getting reamed about the believeability of his major portions of his book.
Wickersham, by contrast, is relying on second-hand and third-hand sources for what is little more than gossip.
Sounds to me like Wickersham is getting off pretty easy here.
One is a book about the President of the United States.
The other is a free article about a person that throws a ball and another person that helps teach him where to throw it and a third person who pays them to do these things.
Also true--and Jimmy and Don don't really want Jimmy's first contract negotation to be after five years of a career where he's been franchsed once but played almost no games.
Upthread somewhere, didn't someone quote wickersham about "verifying as much as he could?" OK, maybe you can't verify, beyond anonymous sourcing, how many squares of TP BB uses. But not the very very very easily verifiable question of whether an award actually exists? It's *that* and not the use of anonymous sources, that calls his credibility & judgment into question.
No kidding. Besides, there was a plan. Groom Jimmy G to be Brady's replacement. The fact that Brady is still playing at an MVP level at age 40 is what has mucked up the plans.
So even the nearby waitstaff refused to go on record? Man does Belichick run a tight ship...
John "I make up fake stories" Tomase weighs in.
http://www.weei.com/articles/column/tomase-bill-belichick-built-patriots-dynasty-and-choosing-tom-brady-over-him-will?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
http://www.weei.com/articles/column/tomase-bill-belichick-built-patriots-dynasty-and-choosing-tom-brady-over-him-will?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I kind of feel like this whole thing feels like exactly what one might have already guessed. Belichick and Brady have a player coach relationship. Kraft is more sentimental about both of them, as an owner would be.
Has Belichick ever been truly warm with any active player? I mean, his whole M.O. is not about that. He is simultaneously the biggest "player coach" in the NFL -- in that he views his job as giving his players the best chance to succeed -- and the anti "player coach". Nothing is more impirtant than the best interest of the team. The team is made up of players and a depth chart. That's what you are, and all you ever will be, while you play for him. His entire dogma of football does not work if he views players as friends or sentimentally.
When you no longer play for him, or you play for an opponent, you achieve Bruschi, Bavarro, Taylor, Reed status. But not before. Sports is largely illusion. Heck, the whole gig is convincing ourselves that throwing balls back and forth to sell bud light matters. So, there is a romantic warm fuzziness to the idea that Bill and Tom are buds. But we all know that is simply not possible. Bill does not work that way. He requires a chain of command and very firm identification about who are the players and who are the coaches -- every one associated with the team has a defined role and Bill appears not to care for blurred lines. Tom is the current starting QB. No more, no less.
When Brady is no longer a Belichick player, the flowery shit we are going to hear about him will make us blush. I believe, based on the way he talks about other former players and how Brady has many attributes Bill loves, that he adores Tom Brady the football player. I suspect Brady knows it too, but also will never hear a peep about it until he is done, other than maybe in the ten post-coital minutes of Championship hugging that happens before Bill puts his game face back on.
Has Belichick ever been truly warm with any active player? I mean, his whole M.O. is not about that. He is simultaneously the biggest "player coach" in the NFL -- in that he views his job as giving his players the best chance to succeed -- and the anti "player coach". Nothing is more impirtant than the best interest of the team. The team is made up of players and a depth chart. That's what you are, and all you ever will be, while you play for him. His entire dogma of football does not work if he views players as friends or sentimentally.
When you no longer play for him, or you play for an opponent, you achieve Bruschi, Bavarro, Taylor, Reed status. But not before. Sports is largely illusion. Heck, the whole gig is convincing ourselves that throwing balls back and forth to sell bud light matters. So, there is a romantic warm fuzziness to the idea that Bill and Tom are buds. But we all know that is simply not possible. Bill does not work that way. He requires a chain of command and very firm identification about who are the players and who are the coaches -- every one associated with the team has a defined role and Bill appears not to care for blurred lines. Tom is the current starting QB. No more, no less.
When Brady is no longer a Belichick player, the flowery shit we are going to hear about him will make us blush. I believe, based on the way he talks about other former players and how Brady has many attributes Bill loves, that he adores Tom Brady the football player. I suspect Brady knows it too, but also will never hear a peep about it until he is done, other than maybe in the ten post-coital minutes of Championship hugging that happens before Bill puts his game face back on.
I think this is largely true, but we have actually heard BB gush plenty of times about Brady. "There's no QB I'd rather have on my team". Etc.
Yeah, he throws out bouquets to players in post-game discussions or when forced to do so with a question in a press conference. I mean this romanticized idea of Bill tussling Brady's hair during practice or whatever these articles are playing off.
This seems spot-on.
As mentioned elsewhere, Wilfork, Seymour, Mankins, and many others.