I think it could have. The genesis of Deflategate was professional jealousy (among a lot of childish owners) and that really doesn't need much of a basis to hang its hat on. Anything will do.
Thoughts/Impressions on “The Dynasty” Apple TV Series
- Thread starter Dewey's 'stache
- Start date
I still will never understand how any even mildly objective observer will agree with the 31 other owners's take that the Patriots weren't punished enough for Spygate. That is total madness. Fucking insane.
Some of them probably wanted a massive punishment; as in Super Bowls being vacated, being barred from the Draft or some kind of league imposed cap penalty. Basically the NCAA "Death Penalty" on steroids. Goodell, to his credit, didn't want to set that kind of precedent because then you are constantly re-litigating prior seasons when scandals inevitably hit.
This is crazy to me. How could you not want multi-paragraph posts with graphs, charts and an investigation board that makes CSI look like child's play? We can not only show you why Deflategate was a complete fabrication but also that it was more probable than not that Snowmiser was behind the deflating. Why are you choosing to look a stable of gift horses in the mouth?
The concept of contained air increasing or decreasing in pressure with temperature is so deeply ingrained in me from life experience and reinforced from academic study (in high school no less) that I assume the type of person who puts much stock in deflategate being real is just someone to avoid any interaction with.
I just caught up on this. I don’t really see it as a hit piece on Belichick. I was expecting worse from the reaction I had seen going into this. I think the film makers just made really bad choices on what to focus on.
I think Belichick comes off brilliantly early on in the Bledsoe vs Belichick debate. Kraft clearly would’ve stuck with Bledsoe and if he had his way we might have 0 rings. If it were a hit piece it wouldn’t be so honest there.
Kraft calling Belichick a schmuck later on just makes Kraft look like one IMHO. And Kraft offered to pay Hernandez legal bills if he came clean because he must have a good reason? Then Kraft is more upset that he was lied to and not that Hernandez murdered someone.
I think Belichick comes off brilliantly early on in the Bledsoe vs Belichick debate. Kraft clearly would’ve stuck with Bledsoe and if he had his way we might have 0 rings. If it were a hit piece it wouldn’t be so honest there.
Kraft calling Belichick a schmuck later on just makes Kraft look like one IMHO. And Kraft offered to pay Hernandez legal bills if he came clean because he must have a good reason? Then Kraft is more upset that he was lied to and not that Hernandez murdered someone.
To be fair BB is a hostage in this. The series is made way too soon. In BB mind he is still in the middle of prolonging the dynasty when this is beingg filmed. Of course he cannot speak his mind openly. BB has shown himself to be very articulate when there is nothing at stake. He can hardly blame the Krafts for anything in the series while still hired by them. For me the series is diminished because of this.
as a further point the interviewers allowing a no comment as as an answer is galling. For example Tom on deflategate. You have to push him for further commentary on than now but it’s obviously agreed by the lack of follow up that this can’t be broached and likely Brady won’t speak the truth because of his ownership sign off.
This series would have been amazing with candid responses 5/10 years from now.
I am aware it isn’t new. I still think it reflects poorly on Kraft. It’s even worse he feels the need to keep repeating it.
Edit: I’d also add that the filmmakers defense of why he didn’t include more of the Super Bowl highlights is bullshit. “It’s already been done”. So has 99% of the soap opera garbage in this.
I’m having my own jerk store moment.
I guess Robert Kraft can’t relate to getting caught breaking a rarely enforced rule with video tape evidence.
I guess Robert Kraft can’t relate to getting caught breaking a rarely enforced rule with video tape evidence.
Which is why it’s a frustrating doc. There’s nothing interesting outside a rehashing of public narratives. We learn nothing new and the non-agenda driven director just takes answers at face value. I keep coming back to the question of why this was made. The director says he didn’t want to cover things that have been already covered in great detail before. That’s a crock of shit and total copout which should tell you a lot. But that also only leaves Deflategate and Spygate and the end, which only hasn’t been captured because it’s new. They never establish the actually dynasty. They rareky talk about the ups and downs, only the downs. The book was a total hagiography but this is just weird. It’s not actually focused on the dynasty - it’s focused on the Real Housewives aspects while bringing no independent perspective and yada yadaing over the dynastic parts. It’s lazy. That’s fine but he had a ton of access and, through 8 episodes, has done a mediocre job. I keep coming back to asking why this was made and don’t have a good answer. Its uncovered nothing new or interesting, only provided existing info to a new audience d.
To the BB being a hostage, his demeanor in this vs an NFL Films production is telling.
Edit: The doc is entertaining and I enjoy watching it but it’s a shit doc. I feel I can hold both those thoughts without conflict.
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These two eps def brought me back to the RAGE I still kind of feel (in a good way) for the horseshit cackling GLEE with which NFL Nation and all the other fans jumped up and down on the franchise and on Brady in particular. Makes me want to sound a barbaric YAWP (Dead Poets Forever) at the fucking HILARIOUS back-at-ya schadenfreude of Malcolm's pick and Brady's comeback and Goodell having to eat shit while handing over Lombardis and MVP trophies to the guys he fucked with.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck YOU. LFG!!!!
I fucking love TB 12.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck YOU. LFG!!!!
I fucking love TB 12.
The Deflategate horseshit raised my hackles all over again, but then I understood it as simply the prelude to the 3-28 triumph. What an incredible fuck you to Goodell, the other NFL owners, the media and Pats haters everywhere. That mighty fuck you still reverberates. FEA indeed.
That’s fair. I probably took it out of context. My friends are watching it and think the whole series is doing a disservice to Bill. That has influenced my post and I’ll refrain from posting again until I watch it.
Edit: I lied
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I just don’t know how you leave out the ‘Mona Lisa Vito’ zinger. Sure BB should be held accountable for his various failings but the way they portrayed his presser as throwing Tom under the bus doesn’t tell the story of how he did in fact protect his team and how much he hated Goodell and the clowns in NFL leadership.
In many ways he used the ‘us against the world’ mentality to motivate and re-ignite a team and keep the dynasty going. Feels like a miss. Plus it’s pure gold.
In many ways he used the ‘us against the world’ mentality to motivate and re-ignite a team and keep the dynasty going. Feels like a miss. Plus it’s pure gold.
I'm surprised that they essentially ignored Gronk. Not just the player (game's best TE), but also the injuries and the phenomenon. One of the biggest misses of the series, IMO.
I think Kraft really didn't do any favors to Brady in this last episode in the section on Bill being just as hard, if not harder on Brady. Talking about what a sensitive person Tom is and that they had multiple conversations about how Bill treated Tom makes Brady look like a whiny baby.
It's not the norm at all to treat established players like that in the league, nevermind the greatest player in the history of the sport. That Tom would be bothered by it is only natural, and that it took 15 years for that to become a problem is to his credit. Freaking Jakobi Meyers said that the way the coaching staff still treated him like a rookie and demanded he prove himself day after day was disrespectful and a factor in him leaving.
This, exactly. And what makes it even better is how the episode ended, where they framed it as if the dynasty was about to end after SB 51, with BB and TB12 finally parting ways after years of turmoil.
Oh wait, no. They made the next two Super Bowls, winning one. FEA. LFG!!!
Yeah. I've given this doc a loooong rope and I'm mostly watching it uncritically, but I think Kraft has zero crredibility during this sequence. For Bob Kraft to say, "Well, Tommy was looking for Bill's approval in a father/son way, and it's not in BB's nature to give that" -- and to imply that this is some character flaw of Bill's, that's hogwash. Bob Kraft hired and empowered Bill Belichick. Kraft let Bill Belichick set the tone for the football team and for football operations. At any point, if Kraft was dissatisified with the way BB handled players -- especially one as important to the franchise as Tom Brady -- he could have pulled rank. He chose not to. That was probably a wise choice. Kraft can't have it both ways. Either he lets Belichick be Belichick and takes the good with the bad, or he moves on.
It seems obvious that Kraft has is contemplating empty what-might-have-beens. He's sad the GOAT moved on. He's sad that Tampa won a Super Bowl that could've been his. But as the only person in the organization with any authority over Belichick, griping and lamenting about him in public seems petty. And to your point, re: Brady: calling a grown man and the GOAT is doing him no favors.
Unrelated: Tom Brady has always struck me as a corny dude. He's clearly the best quarterback of all time, and he's on my Mt. Rushmore with Pedro and Papi, but he's always struck me as awkward off the field (as highlighted by that Jim Gray interview). Still, "FEA year" was fantastic.
Nora Princiotti being a featured media talking head later in the series is not something I anticipated.
RKK put that hat in Tom’s locker and now has his production company runs this hit piece? Also, it wasn’t exactly a public endorsement by Bill, he wrote something in private that got out and he was forced to address it. Leave aside the politics, it’s just completely hypocritical and a bit of a low blow. Also, they won the SB that year, so it must have been quite a problem in the locker room. This entire production is an embarrassment.
Thanks for 24 years of the greatest NFL dynasty ever, Bill!
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This, all of this. I may not watch the last 2 episodes, and I'm seriously considering passing on my season tix this year too. Kraft comes across like a complete fucking asshole, IMO. And I've always thought of him as one of the best owners in sports.
Maybe NFL films should do their own version, and spend the entire series on the Orchids of Asia and their clientele.
The story is BB even rewrote it when Trump wanted to read it at the rally and gave BB the thumbs up to read it out. Then again the story is coming from Trump…
The final cuts of these episodes showing the Krafts white knighting all over the pace while evading the massage parlor story and Trump flak says it all. Would love to see the unedited interviews - like any depositions, the questions posed, and how, are always revealing.
I actually don’t think Kraft accomplished his objective with this project (he looks bad in some earlier episodes and what he is doing is transparent), but I can’t help but roll my eyes.
Anecdotal, to be sure, but the feedback I’ve gotten from some folks who are not diehard Pats, or football, fans is that Kraft doesn’t come off as appreciative of Bill at all throughout the series.
I actually don’t think Kraft accomplished his objective with this project (he looks bad in some earlier episodes and what he is doing is transparent), but I can’t help but roll my eyes.
Anecdotal, to be sure, but the feedback I’ve gotten from some folks who are not diehard Pats, or football, fans is that Kraft doesn’t come off as appreciative of Bill at all throughout the series.
It’s hard for me to fathom that, not only would Kraft do this in such a public manner, but that its planned release was always going to be a time when Belichick was likely to still be coaching here. Can you imagine if they finished 11-6 or something last year, and this is how they lead into free agency? What the hell?
Not watching this hit job on Bill but isn't the prevailing theory that Malcolm had a run-in with a coach the day of the SB. If so, I can see why players might not know.
The two rumors I can recall, which are not mutually exclusive, is that he sucked in practice and/or he had a run-in with a coach (Patricia?). Kraft also said in Episode 9 that he heard that Bill had a ‘personal’ (non-football) issue with Butler without elaborating further, but Butler claimed he had no idea. So, beyond Kraft not committing to a real answer (if he knows, what the hell is that?), who the fuck knows.
Ah, my memory isn’t totally shot - here is what Wickersham reported in his book:
https://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2021/09/29/malcolm-butler-matt-patricia-super-bowl-benching-argument/
If it's true that he was benched for essentially insubordination, I can see why Bill never made that clear to the team. Even if it also included what the coaches felt was a lack of effort (it's often forgotten that Butler didn't have a very good season that year). Broadcasting this to the team this day & age can be humiliating to a player and you generally want to spare them the extra "punishment." It can also impact the rest of them where other players are thinking, Dang if I screw up am I going to be humiliated too?
In the end, I'm not sure why he was benched and doubt anyone really knows outside of the coaching staff. But, if it was basically what Wickersham reported, I really don't think the players would know - other than what Butler might tell them. And, if Butler was honest, would his teammates sell him out and tell the world? If Butler was dishonest, would they sell out Bill? I think as a teammate saying I got no clue is the prudent way to go. That may change in 10 years.
In the end, I'm not sure why he was benched and doubt anyone really knows outside of the coaching staff. But, if it was basically what Wickersham reported, I really don't think the players would know - other than what Butler might tell them. And, if Butler was honest, would his teammates sell him out and tell the world? If Butler was dishonest, would they sell out Bill? I think as a teammate saying I got no clue is the prudent way to go. That may change in 10 years.
This is making it hard for me to cheer for the Pats. RKK et al trashing Bill more than I can take. I could live with them firing him, but this is beyond petty.
I have the exact opposite reaction as some of you. The player segments overall - and particularly from the likes of Slater as well as McCourty - were fairly damning of Bill. That isn't hit-piece stuff - it features quotes directly from respected veterans.
I loved the music choices in this, including the obvious ones. The series merits a rewatch.
I loved the music choices in this, including the obvious ones. The series merits a rewatch.
Yeah, but editing can make a world of difference. Relationships between people who spend that much time together are complicated. There are always going to be ups and downs and disagreements. These players might love Belichick overall but still wish he had handled certain situations differently. I think that's completely normal.
I haven't watched the 2 most recent eps yet. What??? They didn't even touch upon the science for 10 seconds? The whole thing was a (non) science fuckup, mixed in with a huge amount of jealousy and vengeance.
Anyways, I'm loving this series so far, so I'll wait to judge.
I only remember the science aspect mentioned very briefly and in a dismissive way. (To be fair I did skip through a little bit of the DFG nonsense and it might've been mentioned again during a part I skipped.) But yeah, they really did a disservice by not explaining the actual reason the game balls (including the Colts') were deflated and how the Wells report used bad faith arguments involving junk science/anti-science to reach its conclusions.
I'll never understand why Butler was active for that game. If you're not willing to play him even in a situation that dire, why have him on the sidelines in uniform, ready to go, for players to constantly look upon as Johnson Bademosi and Jordan Richards are getting torched?
Let’s not forget that Butler missed the team plane to the Superbowl that year because he was supposedly “sick for a day and needed IV fluids at the hospital.“ Butler had missed two team planes before, as I recall.
It is hit piece stuff, because why produce a documentary to say it, especially given it was made WHEN HE WAS STILL COACHING. As Mystic said, I’m sure there is probably a ton of positive stuff they left on the cutting room floor, as well. Also, BB has always been gracious in assigning credit to the players and not making it about himself, so wtf is the point of this?
I can only assume the only way Bill was going to be back is if they went 12-5 and won a playoff game because I can't even fathom this series being out while he's still the team's Head Coach. It's super weird framing in general, I get the idea to focus on the drama aspect of it, but still. Bill doesn't do himself any favors with his demeanor and unwillingness to share his side of the story, but I have grown to despise Kraft`s constant need for self aggrandizement. We get it, you think you don't get enough credit for what the team accomplished for 20 years.
This one from Brady is nauseating:
View: https://twitter.com/mikekadlick/status/1768447623323632051?s=46&t=11SXTvIYT-tl8b6e7iEUVQ
Amazing that the coaches wouldn’t want Mr. Concussion Water in Mr Kraft’s F-graded weight room contradicting their strength and conditioning coaches.
That’s also the kind of blatant star treatment Bill always avoided. Can everyone else bring in their favorite PT, as well?
View: https://twitter.com/mikekadlick/status/1768447623323632051?s=46&t=11SXTvIYT-tl8b6e7iEUVQ
Amazing that the coaches wouldn’t want Mr. Concussion Water in Mr Kraft’s F-graded weight room contradicting their strength and conditioning coaches.
That’s also the kind of blatant star treatment Bill always avoided. Can everyone else bring in their favorite PT, as well?
I just watched E9 and E10. There's definitely some Bill bashing in there, but it sounds like 2017 was roundly recognized as miserable, so lots of smoke that he may, in fact, have gone too far with his methods. A few other takeaways:
- There's no way they make this in this fashion unless they have a pretty good idea Bill is gone when it gets released. Aside from the criticism, just a little too much conveniently timed truth telling from RKK.
- Love those long shots where BB won't answer a question and just doesn't give an inch. He'd probably sit there silently for days if it came to it.
- That call at RKK's house when Brady decided to leave must have been awesome. Seemed like they all recognized the gravity of it and appreciated each other. Good on Brady for keeping it private.
- The Malcolm thing...still the weirdest controversy of the dynasty. Malcolm knows something. I don't buy he has "no idea". Obviously Bill knows. Matty "Fredo" P knows. But why is it such a secret still? We only really care because no one will tell us what really happened.
- There's probably a whole film to be made just on the TB12, Gronk, Guererro, BB, Pat's training staff drama. Bill came across as the asshole there, but I am sure it's more interesting and nuanced than is coming across.
- Amendola with the "go ask a guy at Foxboro High if it's a good idea to get rid of Brady" zinger when TB left. Pretty nice. He also came across as very salty overall...maybe because Bill made him take a pay cut several years in a row.