Trade Value in Current System

jbupstate

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2022
614
New York, USA
The elite free agents are off the board. The remaining free agents are in demand, have uncertainty and are going to get paid. That leaves trades as an avenue to bring in talent that fills a hole.

How would SOSH order the Red Sox system in terms of trade value?

Top Tier
Bello
Casas
Mayer
Anthony
Teel

What kind of return could be expected?

Second Tier
Bleis
Yorke
Rafaela

Martin
Jansen
Duran


Could the Sox get more at the deadline?
 
Last edited:

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,204
Interesting idea for a thread. Also always fun to look back at these things and see what pieces we under or over valued.

I put Bello and Casas in their own tier. Yes, “everyone is available at the right price”, but since I don’t see the Ms calling and offering a Kirby and Rodriguez swap…

First tier
Anthony. He’s the one I’m not moving if it can be at all avoided. Only possible exception is a bona fide top half of the rotation starter with 3 or more seasons of control. This is an incredibly short list.

Second tier
Teel - see above. Though here I’d consider for two years (ie Framber Valdez).

Third tier
Crawford
Mayer
Duran

Fourth tier
Jansen
Martin
Houck

Rest of the prospects / young pieces

I don’t think many of them have much trade value on their own. Packaged you MIGHT get someone else version of Crawford / Houck for something like Bleis, Yorke and Perales or some such. But probably not (ie Seattle would be no more likely to trade Woo for those three than we’d be to trade Crawford for Gabriel Gonzalez and Emerson Hancock.


Best guess - I think you could probably overpay in hitting prospect value to acquire something pretty good, but with questions, either in terms of health or upside.

So I think you could “probably” land something like LGilbert, D Cease or J Luzardo (my personal order of preference) for something like Mayer, Duran, Bleis and Perlaes (just based on trade value, not looking at other team’s rosters or farm systems).

I‘d welcome that kind of bold move, but I don’t see it as likely.


As it stands right now, I’d be actively trying to trade anyone with one year left (Sale, Martin, Pivetta, Jansen, in that order) because I think the team right now (or adding Duvall, Turner, Paxton, Montas types) will be absolutely horrendous.

Obviously the equation changes if they go out today and sign Montgomery, Imanaga and Hernandez, but I find acquisitions of players for 3 or more seasons highly unlikely based on reporting (opinions) from people I find reliable.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,635
Miami (oh, Miami!)
How would SOSH order the Red Sox system in terms of trade value?

Top Tier
Bello
Casas
Mayer
Anthony
Teel

What kind of return could be expected?

Second Tier
Bleis
Yorke
Rafaela

Martin
Jansen
Duran


Could the Sox get more at the deadline?
While theoretically no one is untouchable in a lopsided deal, it's probably also useful to think of the organizational needs. I think Bello and Casas are pretty much untouchable - especially suffering after the 1B/power-bat saga of the last few years. Teel also; unless he has a hidden flaw only the Sox know about, he's the catcher of the future.

After that, we should have a ton of IF prospects, but on the immediate horizon there's only Mayer and Yorke. So maybe one of them gets moved and the other is paired with Story. . .and one of the low minors guys comes up in 28 when Story's done.

In the OF group, I think we're set, contractually, with Yoshida (who may DH), Duran, Abreu, with O'Neill for this year. Anthony isn't too far off though, and should be untouchable. Bleis is far from the majors.

So I'm guessing guys like: Jordan, Rafaela, Yorke, Bleis are the least painful to move.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,488
Interesting idea for a thread. Also always fun to look back at these things and see what pieces we under or over valued.

I put Bello and Casas in their own tier. Yes, “everyone is available at the right price”, but since I don’t see the Ms calling and offering a Kirby and Rodriguez swap…

First tier
Anthony. He’s the one I’m not moving if it can be at all avoided. Only possible exception is a bona fide top half of the rotation starter with 3 or more seasons of control. This is an incredibly short list.

Second tier
Teel - see above. Though here I’d consider for two years (ie Framber Valdez).

Third tier
Crawford
Mayer
Duran

Fourth tier
Jansen
Martin
Houck

Rest of the prospects / young pieces

I don’t think many of them have much trade value on their own. Packaged you MIGHT get someone else version of Crawford / Houck for something like Bleis, Yorke and Perales or some such. But probably not (ie Seattle would be no more likely to trade Woo for those three than we’d be to trade Crawford for Gabriel Gonzalez and Emerson Hancock.


Best guess - I think you could probably overpay in hitting prospect value to acquire something pretty good, but with questions, either in terms of health or upside.

So I think you could “probably” land something like LGilbert, D Cease or J Luzardo (my personal order of preference) for something like Mayer, Duran, Bleis and Perlaes (just based on trade value, not looking at other team’s rosters or farm systems).

I‘d welcome that kind of bold move, but I don’t see it as likely.


As it stands right now, I’d be actively trying to trade anyone with one year left (Sale, Martin, Pivetta, Jansen, in that order) because I think the team right now (or adding Duvall, Turner, Paxton, Montas types) will be absolutely horrendous.

Obviously the equation changes if they go out today and sign Montgomery, Imanaga and Hernandez, but I find acquisitions of players for 3 or more seasons highly unlikely based on reporting (opinions) from people I find reliable.
I'd bump Mayer up in the list. He hit a rough stretch in Portland last season, but his stock really hasn't fallen. His swing looks really smooth and hes definitely capable enough to stick at SS.

He has a lot riding on this season. If he performs like he did in Portland, his stock is going to plummet. If he makes progress, people could be talking about seeing him in Boston by the end of 2024.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
5,362
While I'd absolutely love it if another team valued Duran in the Mayer tier, I don't think it's particularly realistic.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,645
Chicago, IL
Interesting idea for a thread. Also always fun to look back at these things and see what pieces we under or over valued.

I put Bello and Casas in their own tier. Yes, “everyone is available at the right price”, but since I don’t see the Ms calling and offering a Kirby and Rodriguez swap…

First tier
Anthony. He’s the one I’m not moving if it can be at all avoided. Only possible exception is a bona fide top half of the rotation starter with 3 or more seasons of control. This is an incredibly short list.

Second tier
Teel - see above. Though here I’d consider for two years (ie Framber Valdez).

Third tier
Crawford
Mayer
Duran

Fourth tier
Jansen
Martin
Houck

Rest of the prospects / young pieces

I don’t think many of them have much trade value on their own. Packaged you MIGHT get someone else version of Crawford / Houck for something like Bleis, Yorke and Perales or some such. But probably not (ie Seattle would be no more likely to trade Woo for those three than we’d be to trade Crawford for Gabriel Gonzalez and Emerson Hancock.


Best guess - I think you could probably overpay in hitting prospect value to acquire something pretty good, but with questions, either in terms of health or upside.

So I think you could “probably” land something like LGilbert, D Cease or J Luzardo (my personal order of preference) for something like Mayer, Duran, Bleis and Perlaes (just based on trade value, not looking at other team’s rosters or farm systems).

I‘d welcome that kind of bold move, but I don’t see it as likely.


As it stands right now, I’d be actively trying to trade anyone with one year left (Sale, Martin, Pivetta, Jansen, in that order) because I think the team right now (or adding Duvall, Turner, Paxton, Montas types) will be absolutely horrendous.

Obviously the equation changes if they go out today and sign Montgomery, Imanaga and Hernandez, but I find acquisitions of players for 3 or more seasons highly unlikely based on reporting (opinions) from people I find reliable.
I think you can add Abreu to the fourth tier. His upside is good, and overall performance between AAA and the bigs last year very promising. My guess is that if they sign Teo Hernandez, Abreu is the most likely traded (in some sort of package).

I think trading those dudes with one year left should wait until the trade deadline to see where you're at (especially if they add some quality pieces before the off season ends - why punt before you've begun?).

Meanwhile, I must admit the idea of trading any of Duran, Abreu, Mayer, Anthony, Teel, is kinda scary. Mayer's poor (and injured) end of season performance makes him tempting to move, but we should avoid recency bias there. All three of M, A, and T may well prove outstanding major leaguers, and Duran and Abreu both looked f-ing promising. That's why I wish the team would just sign some goddamn free agents (all it costs is money), rather than give up any of these prospects. But maybe I'm being sentimental.

BTW ...I agree the team is not championship caliber as constituted. Or even, as it stands, playoff caliber. But I don't think they'll be horrendous, they'll be kinda on the bad side of mediocre.
 

Cassvt2023

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 17, 2023
575
I think you can add Abreu to the fourth tier. His upside is good, and overall performance between AAA and the bigs last year very promising. My guess is that if they sign Teo Hernandez, Abreu is the most likely traded (in some sort of package).

I think trading those dudes with one year left should wait until the trade deadline to see where you're at (especially if they add some quality pieces before the off season ends - why punt before you've begun?).

Meanwhile, I must admit the idea of trading any of Duran, Abreu, Mayer, Anthony, Teel, is kinda scary. Mayer's poor (and injured) end of season performance makes him tempting to move, but we should avoid recency bias there. All three of M, A, and T may well prove outstanding major leaguers, and Duran and Abreu both looked f-ing promising. That's why I wish the team would just sign some goddamn free agents (all it costs is money), rather than give up any of these prospects. But maybe I'm being sentimental.

BTW ...I agree the team is not championship caliber as constituted. Or even, as it stands, playoff caliber. But I don't think they'll be horrendous, they'll be kinda on the bad side of mediocre.


This is the exact reason I think you see what the market for Jansen may be. A team that needs so many things to go right just to sneak into a wild card spot is not in position to pay a closer 16m when there are in-house options available as some on here, including myself have brought up in other threads. (Whitlock, Houck) The Cardinals projected closer is Ryan Helsley, so I think Jansen would be an upgrade to a team that just signed 3 SP's in a division they believe they can bounce back and compete in. Tommy Edman has I believe 2 arb years left, is a plus defender, steals some bags, switch hits, has position versatility and is in a bit of a log jam position player-wise there. I'd love to see this deal get done, even if we eat some of Kenley's money.
 

buckner's_ankles

New Member
Dec 8, 2007
22
Two different routes to consider:
1) Try to acquire the necessary talent to turn the '24 Sox into a playoff-caliber team
OR
2) Try to trade off players like Sale, Martin, Pivetta and Jansen (and possibly a few redundant, lower-tier prospects) with the aim of building a playoff-caliber team for '25/'26

Option 2 makes 1000x more sense to me.
 

pjheff

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2003
1,341
Two different routes to consider:
1) Try to acquire the necessary talent to turn the '24 Sox into a playoff-caliber team
OR
2) Try to trade off players like Sale, Martin, Pivetta and Jansen (and possibly a few redundant, lower-tier prospects) with the aim of building a playoff-caliber team for '25/'26

Option 2 makes 1000x more sense to me.
75736
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,239
Price had 3 years and $94M left on his deal when he was traded. A far cry from Sale's 1 year and $27.5M. I imagine if they wanted to move him, all they'd need to send along with him is cash.
But BOS paid half of the remaining money, so the part of the deal they moved was 3/48.
 

OCD SS

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I somehow don't see Breslow hosting a fire sale in his first off-season, especially when a lack of competitiveness is the reason his predecessor was canned.

If the 2024 season crashes and burns, they can probably get the same or better deals at the deadline.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,645
Chicago, IL
This is the exact reason I think you see what the market for Jansen may be. A team that needs so many things to go right just to sneak into a wild card spot is not in position to pay a closer 16m when there are in-house options available as some on here, including myself have brought up in other threads. (Whitlock, Houck) The Cardinals projected closer is Ryan Helsley, so I think Jansen would be an upgrade to a team that just signed 3 SP's in a division they believe they can bounce back and compete in. Tommy Edman has I believe 2 arb years left, is a plus defender, steals some bags, switch hits, has position versatility and is in a bit of a log jam position player-wise there. I'd love to see this deal get done, even if we eat some of Kenley's money.
Though if the team acquires Hernandez (I'm more hopeful about this potential signing than others) and two quality starters, then suddenly they ARE a potential playoff team. I guess if they don't plan on acquiring anyone else, then yes, the selling should begin now rather than at the deadline in the event that they're out of it. But ...let's see where they're at in a month, roster wise.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,963
Maine
But BOS paid half of the remaining money, so the part of the deal they moved was 3/48.
I'm aware. But even paying half, he still had three years left. I think that, more than the money owed, is why they needed to staple him to Mookie. I don't think Sale and his one year remaining will be as difficult to move if the Sox choose to do so. At this point, taking on Sale is akin to any number of 1-year flyers we've seen teams take on guys like Syndegaard, Clevinger, Kluber, etc (just to name a few from last winter). The amount of cash the Sox send along probably only affects the quality of lottery ticket prospect they get in return.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,249
Sale's 10/5 rights complicate any offseason trade maneuvers.

Best chance to trade him would be at the deadline to a contender, when the possibility of being in a playoff race is potentially appealing to him.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
12,350
Sale's 10/5 rights complicate any offseason trade maneuvers.

Best chance to trade him would be at the deadline to a contender, when the possibility of being in a playoff race is potentially appealing to him.
He has a full no trade anyways. He’s also got a $20M club option for next year which suddenly seems reasonable if he has a decent year.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Sale's 10/5 rights complicate any offseason trade maneuvers.

Best chance to trade him would be at the deadline to a contender, when the possibility of being in a playoff race is potentially appealing to him.
100%, but he might be willing to waive this depending on what the Sox plans are for him. For the record, I think that as long as he's on the roster he's going to be used as a starter, But if the Sox were looking to move on, brought in three starters (no advocating, just playing what if) and sat Sale down and said look, "This is our plan moving forward, we can either move you to another team where you will have the opportunity to be a regular in someone's rotation or you can stay here and fit in wherever we feel we can use you best." It might be in his best interest to waive his 5/10 rights considering that he's would be pitching for his next contract.
 

Cassvt2023

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 17, 2023
575
mlbtradevalue.com says Kenley Jansen, Nick Yorke and 2m dollars to the Cardinals for Tommy Edman is a fair trade for both teams. Wondering who on here would make this deal yesterday? I would.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,963
Maine
mlbtradevalue.com says Kenley Jansen, Nick Yorke and 2m dollars to the Cardinals for Tommy Edman is a fair trade for both teams. Wondering who on here would make this deal yesterday? I would.
It also says trading Yorke for Edman straight up is a fair trade for both teams. Unless the Cards are hard up to get Jansen, I don't see the point of including him. Of course, I probably don't make even the straight up deal because I'm not that intrigued by Edman.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,204
Possibly I should have Mayer and Duran in separate tiers, but overall I think that people are misinterpreting Mayer’s market value - which is not a shot at Mayer, but more a point on what a “top 20ish MI prospect” will return in trade, especially factoring in that - for whatever reason - he has not produced at AA or above.

Based on some research, the only there recent deals I can think of where a similar prospect was moved were the Berrios deal in 2021 and the Castillo deal in 2022 (possibly Chisholm for Gallen, but that was back in 2019). In both circumstances, the similar MI was probably the “center piece” but more like a $5 used with other denominations to get a $10.

Berrios had 1.5 years of control left when he was traded for Austin Martin (19, 22 and 22 on the big three prospect sites) and Simeón Woods Richardson (69 on BA and 87 on MLB). Martin had put up a .779OPS in AA at age 22 at the time of the trade.

Castillo also had 1.5 years left and Marte was certainly the biggest piece in that deal (18, 11, 15) on the big three. He had (similarly) only produced at A+ (.825OPS at age 20). Arroyo was not ranked entering the 2022 season, though he was producing a .900OPS at 18 in A ball. He was probably around #75/80 at that point in time.

The Castillo deal is probably closest in comp to what the Sox could expect to acquire with Mayer as the centerpiece, but they’d almost certainly have to add a Duran or Yorke piece with him to get a good SP and it would likely only be someone with 2 seasons of control. They’d probably have to add some smaller pieces with them as well.

So - again not looking at all at the other team’s roster or farm system, of “mentioned” starters you’re probably talking about possibly Valdez, maybe Luzardo (bc even though he has 3 years left, he’s not as proven as Castillo or Berrios), and possibly Cease. All of which are the types of pieces I’d be on boarding dealing Mayer with a “Duran / Yorke” piece and more to acquire.

If you wanted to go for a younger pitcher, the Jazz Chisholm / Zac Gallen deal is the closest I can think of, but nor an exact comp as Chisholm was more in the 60 range than the 15 range, but Gallen was also kind of an out of nowhere prospect. But to play the game, you miiiiiiight be able to pull a deal like Mayer for Gavin Williams (which I’d certainly do, but seriously doubt Cleveland would).

Something that I think would make sense for both teams would be a Mayer for Tanner Bibee deal. Not that I’ve heard Bibee is at all available, but I could see that being viable on both ends (for what it’s worth, BTV agrees it’s a fair trade).
 
Last edited:

Cassvt2023

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 17, 2023
575
It also says trading Yorke for Edman straight up is a fair trade for both teams. Unless the Cards are hard up to get Jansen, I don't see the point of including him. Of course, I probably don't make even the straight up deal because I'm not that intrigued by Edman.
It's a fair point. My thinking is the Sox aren't in position to have 16m tied up in a closer when they have so many other needs and other guys who (I think) could fill that role. Use the 14m you'd save on the rotation, as we need 2 SP's and they won't come cheap. Edman was a 6.3 WAR player 2 yrs ago. He is a switch hitter, better fielder than anything we have, steals bags, has a little pop and does't strike out a ton, and has positional versatility.
 

billy ashley

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,233
Washington DC
mlbtradevalue.com says Kenley Jansen, Nick Yorke and 2m dollars to the Cardinals for Tommy Edman is a fair trade for both teams. Wondering who on here would make this deal yesterday? I would.
That's a hard pass for me. Jansen is an expiring contract. He's not a negative asset. He's a slight overpay for 1 year. I like the trade machine, but I think this is an example of where their valuations sometimes falter.

1 year of marginally overpaid Kenley Jansen is not a negative asset. If Boston were to place him on irrevocable waivers, I'm certain some team would snatch him up at that salary.

Edman is a useful but not great player eligible for arbitration. He's not saving his team money anymore. Throwing in Yorke, who I'm somewhat bearish on as a prospect, and an additional 2 million doesn't make sense.

Even though I'm bearish on Yorke, I think he's a better prospect than anyone included in the Verdugo trade. Edman is a better player than Verdugo (marginally) but again, I think Jansen and that assumption makes any inclusion of Yorke in this trade unworkable.
 

chawson

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
4,679
mlbtradevalue.com says Kenley Jansen, Nick Yorke and 2m dollars to the Cardinals for Tommy Edman is a fair trade for both teams. Wondering who on here would make this deal yesterday? I would.
I’m really interested what they do with 2B, but Edman doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Luis Urias and Tommy Edman are really similar assets, with both projected for 2 fWAR seasons next year. Each has two years of control left, with Edman due about $4 million more over those seasons.

If that squares, it would amount to trading Nick Yorke, our 5th or 6th best prospect, for Isaiah Campbell, an interesting and controllable reliever, something like Seattle’s 20th, and paying $4M or so in the process.

Urias has a bad defensive season last year, but Edman’s wasn’t especially great either (-2 in 373 innings). It’s possible the Cards just keep him in CF, where he was really good (+6 in 310 innings). We already pounced on the fallout there by grabbing O’Neill, who I think is our new CF.


He is a switch hitter, better fielder than anything we have, steals bags, has a little pop and does't strike out a ton, and has positional versatility.
I could be wrong but I think he gave up switch-hitting and bats exclusively from the right side now.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
5,362
Calling Edman and Urias similar is a bit of a stretch, Edman offers elite defense pretty much anywhere on the field. As you mentioned he had a down year at 2B this year but it was also a smallish sample as he was jerked around between there, SS and OF (and had great D at both). The previous two years when he's had more consistent time at second he's been fantastic.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,635
Calling Edman and Urias similar is a bit of a stretch, Edman offers elite defense pretty much anywhere on the field. As you mentioned he had a down year at 2B this year but it was also a smallish sample as he was jerked around between there, SS and OF (and had great D at both). The previous two years when he's had more consistent time at second he's been fantastic.
Edmund is recovering from wrist surgery:

Tommy Edman, who is projected to be the team’s Opening Day starter in center field after being a Gold Glove Award finalist as a utility player in 2022 and ‘23, is still recovering from an arthroscopic surgery on his right wrist in October, Cardinals president of baseball operations John Mozeliak told MLB.com. Edman missed three weeks last July with right wrist inflammation, and the injury continued to bother him at the plate through the end of the season. The Cards are hopeful that Edman will be fully recovered by the start of Spring Training.
 
Last edited:

jbupstate

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2022
614
New York, USA
I know it’s a pipe dream.

What would it take to get Trout from the LAA?

He is owned a huge amount of money and the Angels are going nowhere and need to stock their system.

Trout could provide power from the right side and potentially play OF depending on health. Most importantly, acquiring Trout would generate a buzz among fans and the media.

How much would need to be retained by the Angels? What prospects on the way out? Would Sox fans feel better?
 

billy ashley

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,233
Washington DC
I know it’s a pipe dream.

What would it take to get Trout from the LAA?

He is owned a huge amount of money and the Angels are going nowhere and need to stock their system.

Trout could provide power from the right side and potentially play OF depending on health. Most importantly, acquiring Trout would generate a buzz among fans and the media.

How much would need to be retained by the Angels? What prospects on the way out? Would Sox fans feel better?

Trout hasn't appeared in 140 games in a season since 2018. While he's been very good when healthy since 18, he's coming off his worst offensive season ever (wRC+ of 134). His K rate seems to have settled into the high 20s.

Like, he's the best player of his generation but LAA couldn't give away that contract right now if they tried. The trade machine has him listed as a 70 million dollar sunk cost, right now. According to that tool, he's worth about as much as Trevor Story.
 

Yaz4Ever

MemBer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2004
11,293
MA-CA-RI-AZ-NC
I know it’s a pipe dream.

What would it take to get Trout from the LAA?

He is owned a huge amount of money and the Angels are going nowhere and need to stock their system.

Trout could provide power from the right side and potentially play OF depending on health. Most importantly, acquiring Trout would generate a buzz among fans and the media.

How much would need to be retained by the Angels? What prospects on the way out? Would Sox fans feel better?
If the Angels paid half, I'd expect to send a decent prospect/player their way. If they pay more, the player/prospect going their way improves.

This isn't a team that will want Kenley or Story (the only big contracts we really have worth moving), but may be interested in Masa. I'd think Houck/Yorke/Masa for Trout + $18M?
 

jbupstate

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2022
614
New York, USA
Trout hasn't appeared in 140 games in a season since 2018. While he's been very good when healthy since 18, he's coming off his worst offensive season ever (wRC+ of 134). His K rate seems to have settled into the high 20s.

Like, he's the best player of his generation but LAA couldn't give away that contract right now if they tried. The trade machine has him listed as a 70 million dollar sunk cost, right now. According to that tool, he's worth about as much as Trevor Story.
Understood the contract is way underwater. It was an attempt to spur some conversation and to take my mind of Belichick.

How about another question?

If Trout was a free agent this offseason… what kind of contract could he command?
 

billy ashley

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,233
Washington DC
I mean, if he were a FA, I think he'd probably get something along the lines of 5 years, 125 million. The trouble is that the Angels owe him about 250 million, over the next 7.

I think the Angels can't trade him, because the return will suck and he's probably the most important player in franchise history. They just have to hope he figures out how to stay on the field.

The trouble of course isn't just health. The elevated K rate looks like a party of the Mike Trout experience, now. He's still an incredibly productive hitter with a 30% k rate, but he's probably a .270 hitter instead of a .310 hitter. The walks and power are still there, but it's far less of historically good package already, before any additional decline.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,282
Understood the contract is way underwater. It was an attempt to spur some conversation and to take my mind of Belichick.

How about another question?

If Trout was a free agent this offseason… what kind of contract could he command?
I can imagine the Dodgers would sign him to something stupid. But everyone else? Tough call - maybe someone gives him 5/140 or something? His slugging % was way down last year and he broke his hamate on top of that so does the power come back?

He’s such a weird player to value. It wouldn’t shock me at all to see him have an MVP type season next year or to play 25 games.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
20,714
Row 14
Rankings:

Casas - Untouchable unless top 10 player becomes available
Bello - Near Untouchable due to circumstance (only traded for a top line starter)
Duran - Equivalent of a second tier

Prospects:

Top Tier (top piece in a trade for a 2/3 Starter, both in a package for Cy Young Contender unless you add Bello or eat a terrible contract)

Marcelo Mayer
Roman Anthony

Second Tier (Added to package to get where you need or piece you use to grab a starter rental)

Kyle Teel
Ceddaene Rafaela

Third Tier (Throw ins to round out an offer or piece you trade for middle relief)

Nick Yorke
Wilyer Abreu
Luis Perales
Miguel Bleis

Everyone else is fungible at this point.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,204
Rankings:

Casas - Untouchable unless top 10 player becomes available
Bello - Near Untouchable due to circumstance (only traded for a top line starter)
Duran - Equivalent of a second tier

Prospects:

Top Tier (top piece in a trade for a 2/3 Starter, both in a package for Cy Young Contender unless you add Bello or eat a terrible contract)

Marcelo Mayer
Roman Anthony

Second Tier (Added to package to get where you need or piece you use to grab a starter rental)

Kyle Teel
Ceddaene Rafaela

Third Tier (Throw ins to round out an offer or piece you trade for middle relief)

Nick Yorke
Wilyer Abreu
Luis Perales
Miguel Bleis

Everyone else is fungible at this point.
Wow, you're even more down on the farm system (purely in terms of "trade value" than I am) - and who knows, we could be right or wrong, not trying to debate that.

But I'm genuinely curious though, do you feel that Grissom is fungible, or just not include him since Breslow just acquired him? For me, he goes up in that top category which I'll loosely call "the MLB Core" along with Casas, Bello, Devers and Grissom in that there are VERY few things I'd deal them for.
 
Rankings:

Casas - Untouchable unless top 10 player becomes available
Bello - Near Untouchable due to circumstance (only traded for a top line starter)
Duran - Equivalent of a second tier

Prospects:

Top Tier (top piece in a trade for a 2/3 Starter, both in a package for Cy Young Contender unless you add Bello or eat a terrible contract)

Marcelo Mayer
Roman Anthony

Second Tier (Added to package to get where you need or piece you use to grab a starter rental)

Kyle Teel
Ceddaene Rafaela

Third Tier (Throw ins to round out an offer or piece you trade for middle relief)

Nick Yorke
Wilyer Abreu
Luis Perales
Miguel Bleis

Everyone else is fungible at this point.
Would Kutter Crawford (while perhaps “untouchable due to circumstance”) fall under the ‘fungible’ banner? I imagine he would have decent value to a small market team like the Brewers.
 

jbupstate

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2022
614
New York, USA
Would Kutter Crawford (while perhaps “untouchable due to circumstance”) fall under the ‘fungible’ banner? I imagine he would have decent value to a small market team like the Brewers.
Feels like Crawford (and some of the top tier prospects) falls in to the category of More Important to Red Sox vs Stand Alone Value in Trade.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,204
Feels like Crawford (and some of the top tier prospects) falls in to the category of More Important to Red Sox vs Stand Alone Value in Trade.
FWIW, this is where I am with Crawford (and Duran) as well. I'd happily move either one to get (at least in my opinion) someone that is a better starting pitcher with at least two seasons of control. But short of getting that specific kind of piece, I'd rather just see what they have.

It's also why I have no interest in one year deals to players like Soler, Duvall, Turner, Ryu, Paxton, etc, etc. I think it's more beneficial to the long term of the Red Sox to see what these kind of players have as opposed to the marginal upgrade that lets say Adam Duvall might be to Duran / Abreu / Rafaela. The reward isn't great enough that the risk of having to wait another year just to have the same questions about the kids is at all justifiable in my opinion.
 

SuperManny

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
763
Washington, DC
The Athletic has an article today proposing trade scenarios with Jim Bowden providing feasibility of them.

Red Sox trade scenarios: If the Sox want a top arm, which prospects must they deal?
RHP Dylan Cease, White Sox
Trade package: Marcelo Mayer, Wikelman Gonzalez, Jarren Duran

LHP Jesús Luzardo, Miami Marlins
Trade package: Ceddanne Rafaela, Luis Perales, Jarren Duran

RHP Logan Gilbert, Seattle Mariners
(or) RHP George Kirby, Seattle Mariners
Trade package (for either Kirby or Gilbert): Marcelo Mayer, Roman Anthony, Wikelman Gonzalez
The package for Luzardo jumps out because you keep all the top tier prospects which would be great, although its a really big hit to the Sox OF depth. Bowden's assessment is that this package is not enough to get it done though.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,204
The Athletic has an article today proposing trade scenarios with Jim Bowden providing feasibility of them.

Red Sox trade scenarios: If the Sox want a top arm, which prospects must they deal?


The package for Luzardo jumps out because you keep all the top tier prospects which would be great, although its a really big hit to the Sox OF depth. Bowden's assessment is that this package is not enough to get it done though.
I kind of hate the fact that I agree with Bowden. That makes me feel dumber. (This is a comment on Bowden and my own intelligence, or lack thereof - I appreciate the posted information @snowmanny, to be clear).

I do think putting Mayer and Duran in a package together probably gets the Sox about 90% of the way to Cease or Luzardo, and I'd do that. I don't think there is a path for the Sox to get either one without Mayer at the minimum though.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
20,714
Row 14
Feels like Crawford (and some of the top tier prospects) falls in to the category of More Important to Red Sox vs Stand Alone Value in Trade.
Crawford is the definition of more valuable for me than you. I think he is less likely to be traded than Bello who I think is nigh untradeable
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
20,714
Row 14
The Athletic has an article today proposing trade scenarios with Jim Bowden providing feasibility of them.

Red Sox trade scenarios: If the Sox want a top arm, which prospects must they deal?


The package for Luzardo jumps out because you keep all the top tier prospects which would be great, although its a really big hit to the Sox OF depth. Bowden's assessment is that this package is not enough to get it done though.
You got to figure Garcia is coming back if that is all it would take.
 

bosox62

New Member
Jul 20, 2005
37
Summerville, SC
I mean, if he were a FA, I think he'd probably get something along the lines of 5 years, 125 million. The trouble is that the Angels owe him about 250 million, over the next 7.
This is exactly why I don't fuss when a team signs someone like Xander to an 11 year contract. Sure, I miss him and wanted him to stay but he'll only be worth that contract for, at best half of that time. I wouldn't want a team I root for to be carrying that kind of contract for 11 years.

Same thing with Yamamoto - he's not going to pitch for 12 years in the MLB and someone's going to left holding the bag (and writing the checks).
 

SuperManny

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
763
Washington, DC
You got to figure Garcia is coming back if that is all it would take.
Yeah for what its worth the BTV score in the original proposal isn't enough, 63.3 for Luzardo vs 49.8 for the Duran/Rafaela package. If you include Garcia (-24) then its 39.3 vs 49.8 in the Marlins favor but may be a more realistic option.
 

Hank Scorpio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 1, 2013
7,007
Salem, NH
I know it’s a pipe dream.

What would it take to get Trout from the LAA?

He is owned a huge amount of money and the Angels are going nowhere and need to stock their system.

Trout could provide power from the right side and potentially play OF depending on health. Most importantly, acquiring Trout would generate a buzz among fans and the media.

How much would need to be retained by the Angels? What prospects on the way out? Would Sox fans feel better?
If (if!) Baseball Trade Values is to be trusted, If the Angels were to send us Mike Trout without offering any salary relief, they would have to give us roughly the equivalent of Roman Anthony or Marcelo Mayer to make it even.
 

johnlos

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 22, 2014
250
This is exactly why I don't fuss when a team signs someone like Xander to an 11 year contract. Sure, I miss him and wanted him to stay but he'll only be worth that contract for, at best half of that time. I wouldn't want a team I root for to be carrying that kind of contract for 11 years.

Same thing with Yamamoto - he's not going to pitch for 12 years in the MLB and someone's going to left holding the bag (and writing the checks).
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how contracts work. Of course teams know they'll be left "holding the bag". But they also expect that the player will be worth more more than the AAV of the contact on the front end of it. In other words the extra years just serve as negotiating chips (and, in a sense, a way to defer money by lowering the AAV). Look at Scherzer's 3/$130 or Verlander's 2/$86.6 for an example of what elite guys are actually worth on short contracts (despite how risky they were as old arms).

While I'd absolutely love it if another team valued Duran in the Mayer tier, I don't think it's particularly realistic.
Before he got hurt later in the year I remember one of the big names like BP or FG said that Duran's FV exceeded anyone in the system except Mayer's. Maybe was a bit of 'buying high' but position players with proven success have a ton of value and because he was a late bloomer he doesn't hit FA until after his prime (32).
 

Cassvt2023

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 17, 2023
575
I'd be surprised and disappointed if we were to trade both Duran and Rafaela, and doubly surprised if it was in the same deal. I think last year showed how much speed has come back into the game with the newer rules and larger bases, and they both have a ton of it. In addition, this team needs an upgrade big time on defense and CR is an elite defender in the OF and above average in the MI. And Duran did make strides as a CF last year, and I'm sure can more than adequately handle LF at Fenway as well as RF at many road parks.