UEFA Champions League - Last 16

bosox4283

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I don't understand Simeone's game plan at all. Within reason, Atletico needed a single goal. Now, I understand Juventus came out flying and pressing, but it's nothing they haven't seen before. There was no adjustment. Outside of a spell at the end of the first half, Atletico couldn't string three passes together. Even after the last goal, they never switched on. Stupid fouls allowed Juventus to milk the clock (a certain irony in seeing Atletico players frustrated by the tactic...).
I didn't understand the game plan at all, either. As you say, maybe Simeone thought he could withstand the early pressure and then go for it...but Atletico never went for it. While Juventus played a spectacular match, Atletico played defensively the whole time and never really showed interest in going for the game.

This is probably a @bosox4283 question - does Koke usually play at wide right midfielder in the 4-4-2 setup? Or similar to Juanfran moving to LB, was he there to give Lemar his preferred position in the team? It never seemed like Koke / Arias were totally comfortable on that side, figured it was more a case of unfamiliarity than anything.

Yeah, and most of all it stood out because of how rarely you see someone on Atlético make a mistake like that. Never in a million years would you have seen Costa or Torres holding up the ball by pushing it backwards into a danger area.

Yesterday's match was pretty much the embodiment of everything my Chelsea-supporting cousin couldn't stand about Morata. Poor off-ball play, mediocre work rate, making some ok runs in the limited advanced opportunities Atlético had, but no end product on the chance that would've probably killed the tie.
Koke often has the space to move freely, but he's more comfortable on the right and more familiar with Juanfran than with Arias. I agree that the move was to put Lemar on his preferred position since Koke is more adaptable. Hindsight is 20/20, but Vitolo starting instead of Lemar would have been preferred.

Agreed re: Costa and Torres. In a big match like this one, those two have the tactical skills and knowledge to match Juventus. Morata, while he's been in great form, is not on the same level.

I didn’t understand it either. I know Atletico are comfortable defensively and incredibly solid, but it just seemed overly defensive to me. They had very few stretches where they seemed to control the game.
Yes. Atletico needed a goal as soon as Juventus scored one; at 0-2, Atletico would still have needed a goal to advance and also would have forced Juventus to need four. The option was (a) hope and pray to maintain a the result at 0-1 or (b) go for a goal, even if it means conceding two to make it 1-3 (therefore forcing Juventus to need four).

Very fun match to watch. Congrats to @SocrManiac and sorry to @bosox4283 .

I'm curious to hear from @bosox4283 on this, but I agree that Cholo got his tactics wrong on this one. If you know Juanfran is out of position and is going to be dealing with CR7, don't you protect him with a CB shading hard to his side or with Saul/Rodri? Another possibility - play your young excellent CBs (i.e. the faster and more comfortable at LB of Savic and Gimenez) at LB a la Vertonghen at LB. With Juve needing to come out aggressive yesterday, Thomas instead of Morata would've made a bit of sense. Let Lemar get higher while still helping in MF and giving the backline more protection while controlling the middle of the park a bit better. But hey, it's football, everyone's got an opinion.
Thomas was out due to yellow cards. I think this match showed how important he is to Simeone's system in terms of defending, controlling flow of match, and linking up with forwards. Plus, having Thomas in the middle allows both Koke and Saul to play more of their natural positions. Saul, in particular, isn't have a great season in part because Simeone knows he can play everywhere on the pitch.

Ultimately, Simeone tries to force players into his system, which is fine but it can backfire. Vitolo, Lemar, and Gelson Martins (who is now at loan at Monaco) are talented but Simeone's style ends up restricting their potential. Other players like Gaitain and Carrasco ended up leaving because they did not really buy into the idea of defending first, limiting playmaking, and sacrificing offense. Arda Turan, who clearly thrived under Simeone, also got sick of this system and style and wanted out.

On this current squad, Koke, Saul, Correa, Griezmann, and Costa buy into Simeone's methods; Thomas and Rodrigo, the holding/defensive midfielders, are built for those roles but also accept them. Simeone needs to evolve a bit or stop recruiting and asking for players that do not fit his style.
 

Zososoxfan

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One thing that sticks out to me is his use of the ball at his feet. At United he was getting clobbered by defenders ignoring his feet and just going through him to the ball. At Real, something was beaten into his head that flashiness and embarrassing defenders was going to shorten his career. It's the exact lesson that Neymar can't seem to learn.

I don't remember him being such a great header of the ball at United, but my memory could be flawed.
Ummm, on what planet did CR7 give up flashiness and embarrassing defenders prior to 2-3 years ago, when he lost a lot of the ability to do so? One of my biggest arguments in the Messi v. CR7 debate is that Messi is ruthlessly efficient. He wants to beat the other team and defenders as easily as possible. I do not think the same can be said of CR7. While you are probably right that he toned it down a bit at Real, I think this is an overstatement. CR7 doesn't get whacked as much as Ney because he is a goddamn horse and Ney is a wiry slight dude that embellishes more than CR7 (no small task).

For United he played on the right wing (except in the Champions League final vs Chelsea) who beat players with pace and trickery. He went to Real and played on the left (as you said, inverted) and become a much more efficient goal scorer and, again as you said, used his strength to bully wing backs and cut inside. During his first few seasons at Real he did not want to play through the middle because he had a hard time matching the physicality of most center backs. As SM also just stated, his aerial game has improved greatly.

I think you're seeing this through light blue colored glasses. He's changed his game twice. Maybe once out of necessity of getting older, but still. The most incredible stat I saw this morning? He's the only player with 50 or more Champions League goals to score more in the knockout rounds than the group stage.
No argument about his improved aerial game but I think that developed somewhere in between the periods we are talking about. IOW, if transformation 1 (the issue in discussion) was upon or shortly after joining Real (call it circa 2011-2012) and the second transformation (all parties agreed) occurred approximately in 2015-2016, going from memory I'd say his willingness to go central and up for headers developed in between those seasons. It's transformative in its own right, but more attributable to Ronaldo 3.0 than 2.0.

More importantly, I'm not in a position to counter your point about him being a RW mostly going towards the touchline in his early career and later becoming a dominant inverted winger. I thought he did play as an inverted winger some at United, in which case changes in his game would be better characterized as maturation (only time you'll see my type CR7 and mature in the same sentence) or development as opposed to transformative. But if he really did only switch to the left at Real, I'd agree that's a fundamental change that would rise to being transformative.
 

Zososoxfan

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[snip]
Ultimately, Simeone tries to force players into his system, which is fine but it can backfire. Vitolo, Lemar, and Gelson Martins (who is now at loan at Monaco) are talented but Simeone's style ends up restricting their potential. Other players like Gaitain and Carrasco ended up leaving because they did not really buy into the idea of defending first, limiting playmaking, and sacrificing offense. Arda Turan, who clearly thrived under Simeone, also got sick of this system and style and wanted out.

On this current squad, Koke, Saul, Correa, Griezmann, and Costa buy into Simeone's methods; Thomas and Rodrigo, the holding/defensive midfielders, are built for those roles but also accept them. Simeone needs to evolve a bit or stop recruiting and asking for players that do not fit his style.
Interesting point and I wonder how this would play out if he was managing an international squad...

International football is defined by defensiveness, cohesive style of play, and individual talent. Simeone can bring the first two in spades. Argentina have lacked some of the third recently, but it's not bereft either. I guess what I'm saying is, manage the Albiceleste Cholo (after Scaloni's run ends in 2-3 years)!!
 

Zomp

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Ummm, on what planet did CR7 give up flashiness and embarrassing defenders prior to 2-3 years ago, when he lost a lot of the ability to do so? One of my biggest arguments in the Messi v. CR7 debate is that Messi is ruthlessly efficient. He wants to beat the other team and defenders as easily as possible. I do not think the same can be said of CR7. While you are probably right that he toned it down a bit at Real, I think this is an overstatement. CR7 doesn't get whacked as much as Ney because he is a goddamn horse and Ney is a wiry slight dude that embellishes more than CR7 (no small task).



No argument about his improved aerial game but I think that developed somewhere in between the periods we are talking about. IOW, if transformation 1 (the issue in discussion) was upon or shortly after joining Real (call it circa 2011-2012) and the second transformation (all parties agreed) occurred approximately in 2015-2016, going from memory I'd say his willingness to go central and up for headers developed in between those seasons. It's transformative in its own right, but more attributable to Ronaldo 3.0 than 2.0.

More importantly, I'm not in a position to counter your point about him being a RW mostly going towards the touchline in his early career and later becoming a dominant inverted winger. I thought he did play as an inverted winger some at United, in which case changes in his game would be better characterized as maturation (only time you'll see my type CR7 and mature in the same sentence) or development as opposed to transformative. But if he really did only switch to the left at Real, I'd agree that's a fundamental change that would rise to being transformative.
The above is why I said you are seeing this from an Argentinian viewpoint (and I don't blame you). I just don't see how anyone can type the first bolded part and be serious. How could you possibly know Messi "wants to beat" opponents as easily as possible while CR7 doesn't? Because Ronaldo is flashier? Has more tricks to his dribbling? How can that be a negative unless they are unnecessary which SoccerManiac correctly points out he eliminated at Real?

Also you say he lost the ability to do so 2 or 3 years ago. He's around 2 years older than Messi right? So when Messi loses a step, he'll transform into something. Maybe a play maker, maybe an out and out goal striker. Who knows?

For me, if we're going to have this debate, and IF Juve win a Champions League while he's there it would be the most impressive accomplishment of his career. 3 different leagues, 3 different league titles, 3 different Champions League squads.
 

Zososoxfan

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The above is why I said you are seeing this from an Argentinian viewpoint (and I don't blame you). I just don't see how anyone can type the first bolded part and be serious. How could you possibly know Messi "wants to beat" opponents as easily as possible while CR7 doesn't? Because Ronaldo is flashier? Has more tricks to his dribbling? How can that be a negative unless they are unnecessary which SoccerManiac correctly points out he eliminated at Real?

Also you say he lost the ability to do so 2 or 3 years ago. He's around 2 years older than Messi right? So when Messi loses a step, he'll transform into something. Maybe a play maker, maybe an out and out goal striker. Who knows?

For me, if we're going to have this debate, and IF Juve win a Champions League while he's there it would be the most impressive accomplishment of his career. 3 different leagues, 3 different league titles, 3 different Champions League squads.
To the bolded, yes absolutely. CR7's tricks and flashiness frequently lead to nothing. If he was putting a defender off balance, or was trying to get to a more advantageous position on the field then it would be purposeful, which again, frequently it is not. By extension, I do not agree with Socr's argument that he eliminated this at Real. One thing I will admit though is that with respect to Messi v. Ronaldo, I may be ascribing intent to what actually may be more attributable to style.

I did not bring Messi's transformation(s) into this because I didn't want to conflate the argument. I can certainly share my perspective on Messi's evolution, but I don't think it's germane to the discussion we're having.

Your last paragraph pertains to accomplishments and does not directly address this question of Ronaldo's style, skill, or evolution as a player. Moreover, it's circular--his most impressive accomplishment is the aggregate of his accomplishments? It would make more sense to compare his most successful years at Real to his first season at Juve.*

*In beginning to look this up on my own (can't finish now) but recognizing it doesn't prove anything specific to my arguments, both CR and Messi have 597 club goals. Messi has 95 fewer appearances.
 
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Kliq

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For all the talk about Ronaldo being a selfish, me-first player, the dude rises up when his team needs him. His leadership over the last several years, from Portugal winning the Euros to his performance yesterday, has been impressive imo.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Oh for fuck's sakes - Liverpool's midfield three will be Henderson, Milner, Wijnaldum


Just when I thought Fabinho had worked himself into cannot-be-dropped territory...
 

bosox4283

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Oh for fuck's sakes - Liverpool's midfield three will be Henderson, Milner, Wijnaldum


Just when I thought Fabinho had worked himself into cannot-be-dropped territory...
Whenever I see Henderson and Milner in the line-up, I think of this Irish guy and hope he's handling the news OK.

 

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I can't believe Henderson and Milner are both in, one at the expense of Fabinho - Klopp loves him some binkies, and that midfield 3 is his version of one for sure......sigh!
 

lars10

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To the bolded, yes absolutely. CR7's tricks and flashiness frequently lead to nothing. If he was putting a defender off balance, or was trying to get to a more advantageous position on the field then it would be purposeful, which again, frequently it is not. By extension, I do not agree with Socr's argument that he eliminated this at Real. One thing I will admit though is that with respect to Messi v. Ronaldo, I may be ascribing intent to what actually may be more attributable to style.

I did not bring Messi's transformation(s) into this because I didn't want to conflate the argument. I can certainly share my perspective on Messi's evolution, but I don't think it's germane to the discussion we're having.

Your last paragraph pertains to accomplishments and does not directly address this question of Ronaldo's style, skill, or evolution as a player. Moreover, it's circular--his most impressive accomplishment is the aggregate of his accomplishments? It would make more sense to compare his most successful years at Real to his first season at Juve.*

*In beginning to look this up on my own (can't finish now) but recognizing it doesn't prove anything specific to my arguments, both CR and Messi have 597 club goals. Messi has 95 fewer appearances.
To me, Ronaldo is a more direct, physically dominant and aggressive player that just hammers the ball into the back of the net.. puts himself in positions to score off the ball especially with his head.

Messi is more of an off-beat player.. he has hit the balls more times,when I didn’t expect it, than any other player I’ve ever seen. He also is a threat to pass, dribble or shoot moreso than Ronaldo imo.

I don’t think you can go wrong with either obviously, but I think Messi has a handle on more of the game than Ronaldo.. and his game will also translate better into old age since I don’t think he relies as much on speed and power.

I think a lot of the problem of comparing them too though is they play different positions and different styles.. they both do come up huge typically in big games though.. and what Ronaldo did in the second leg was pretty spectacular.
 

teddykgb

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I think you have that last part backwards. Ronaldo’s game has taken exceptionally to old age because he has transitioned into such a clinical poacher. His size, relative speed, athleticism and eye for goal mean he can still be ridiculously effective even as he has lost some of his more youthful gifts. I am, in general, team Messi in spite of my heritage but I would think his drop off to mere mortal will be more severe. He will always have the touch and vision but his physical limitations seem far more likely to get the better of him since he’s not going to suddenly become Pirlo or anything
 

lars10

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I think you have that last part backwards. Ronaldo’s game has taken exceptionally to old age because he has transitioned into such a clinical poacher. His size, relative speed, athleticism and eye for goal mean he can still be ridiculously effective even as he has lost some of his more youthful gifts. I am, in general, team Messi in spite of my heritage but I would think his drop off to mere mortal will be more severe. He will always have the touch and vision but his physical limitations seem far more likely to get the better of him since he’s not going to suddenly become Pirlo or anything
Hm. Perhaps you’re right. I guess we’ll see. They’re both adapting to age and you are right that Ronaldo has become a great poacher. I was thinking that Messi will always have that passing ability and his timing (even though he may not move as fast his touch will be the same or close).

I just feel like he’ll be like that old guy you play soccer with who you just don’t quite understand how they thread the passes they do or maintain possession and shield the ball etc.. he won’t make the same dribbling runs, but he can be in the center of the pitch and still control the ball..

I could also just be biased since I prefer messi’s Style of play.
 

Zososoxfan

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I think you have that last part backwards. Ronaldo’s game has taken exceptionally to old age because he has transitioned into such a clinical poacher. His size, relative speed, athleticism and eye for goal mean he can still be ridiculously effective even as he has lost some of his more youthful gifts. I am, in general, team Messi in spite of my heritage but I would think his drop off to mere mortal will be more severe. He will always have the touch and vision but his physical limitations seem far more likely to get the better of him since he’s not going to suddenly become Pirlo or anything
Worth discussion in another thread, but I absolutely expect him to transition to being like Pirlo, but further up the pitch to take advantage of his finishing and short-passing. Pirlo's long-passing is the stuff of legend, but Messi is like a pro golfer with his ability to control spin and have the ball sit exactly where he wants for his targets.
 

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Keita missed training yesterday is apparently has as slight injury/knock keeping him out - Fabinho on the bench is more of a head scratcher...
 

swiftaw

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Keita missed training yesterday is apparently has as slight injury/knock keeping him out - Fabinho on the bench is more of a head scratcher...
I don't think Keita made the trip.

Fabinho hasn't started an away CL match all season (in fact I think he's only played 17 minutes on the road in the CL all season).
 

Kliq

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To me, Ronaldo is a more direct, physically dominant and aggressive player that just hammers the ball into the back of the net.. puts himself in positions to score off the ball especially with his head.

Messi is more of an off-beat player.. he has hit the balls more times,when I didn’t expect it, than any other player I’ve ever seen. He also is a threat to pass, dribble or shoot moreso than Ronaldo imo.

I don’t think you can go wrong with either obviously, but I think Messi has a handle on more of the game than Ronaldo.. and his game will also translate better into old age since I don’t think he relies as much on speed and power.

I think a lot of the problem of comparing them too though is they play different positions and different styles.. they both do come up huge typically in big games though.. and what Ronaldo did in the second leg was pretty spectacular.
Messi has a certain level of skill and vision that Ronaldo doesn't have; but Ronaldo just physically can do more, particularly through the air. Messi doesn't score those two goals that Ronaldo scored yesterday; maybe he does some other, equal brilliant plays, but he doesn't get to either of those balls.
 

allstonite

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This ref is wildly inconsistent. At least a half dozen shirt pulls uncalled on Bayern but THAT gets a yellow?
 

teddykgb

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I'm an unabashed Liverpool fan tonight. Do you guys ever get tired of having the commentators describe your team like the Spartans at Thermopylae
 

PedroSpecialK

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Tough on Matip to have the OG to his name, that was going in unless he found a way to backheel it out.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Lots of late, unnecessary fouls by Liverpool right now. I know they're trying to break up Bayern's flow, but they would've had the ball back there if they had some restraint
 

Clears Cleaver

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James has been absolutely dreadful in both legs of this tie
Milner is not good enough right now to be playing in this game

Whatever happens this season it should be good knowing LFC can meaningfully improve the midfield next year. Gigi and ??
 

swiftaw

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Milner is not good enough right now to be playing in this game

Whatever happens this season it should be good knowing LFC can meaningfully improve the midfield next year. Gigi and ??
Milner's contract is up in the summer and he hasn't yet signed a new one. I think he's waiting to see if Leeds get promoted, if so, I'd expect thats where he'll be next season.