Vazquez plays defense, or The New Molina

[Sprowl]

very well. Against the Rays in Webster's first start, he nailed Zobrist on an attempted stolen base, pounced on a bunt up the first-base line to throw out the bunter, and stole more than his share of low strikes. After watching Salty and Pierzynski lose countless strikes at the knee, it's a pleasure to see umpires call some egregious strikes in Boston's favor.
 
Post your Christian observations here.

 

[Rasputin]

Post your Christian observations here.

There's a church around here that has a sign to the effect that you can't enter heaven unless Jesus enters you. The next church down the street has a sign to the effect of "I am coming, and right quickly" that is attributed to Jesus.

I wish they would coordinate a little better as that is way too much information for me.

Looking at the zone maps it looks like there's about ten pitches outside the real zone that were called strikes and maybe five outside the not real but they usually call it zone.

I dunno, five pitches a game is almost two whole outs. That's like shaving almost five minutes off of a football game, but only when your opponent had the ball.

That seems pretty significant to me.

Also, I am yearning for the day we start running out Vazquez, Marrero, Pedroia, Bradley up the middle.

Has any team ever had their full up the middle continent win gold gloves?

 

[someoneanywhere]

Has any team ever had their full up the middle continent win gold gloves?

I dunno. But I have seen a bunch of Sox squads incontinent up the middle.

 

[Tito's Pullover]

Also, I am yearning for the day we start running out Vazquez, Marrero, Pedroia, Bradley up the middle.
Has any team ever had their full up the middle continent win gold gloves?

The Reds had Bench/Morgan/Concepcion/Geronimo four straight years, 74-77.

I thought for sure those late nineties Cleveland squads with Lofton, Vizquel, and the Brothers Alomar would have matched up one year, but Sandy Jr won his only glove in 1990.

The Weaver-era Orioles fielded 5 gold glove threesomes - Belanger, Paul Blair, and Bobby Grich/Davey Johnson, but never had a catcher win one during that time.

 

[JimD]

You only need to watch Vasquez a short while to understand why the FO were so eager to avoid any commitment this year to Salty.

 

[bosox1025]

The strike-'em out throw-'em out double play in the first inning was a thing of beauty. The speed he released the ball was impressive -- the absolute on the money laser he threw to nail him by 2 feet was epic.
 
The FO will have an interesting decision on their hands when (barring a setback) Swihart starts really knocking on the door around May of next year.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Also, I am yearning for the day we start running out Vazquez, Marrero, Pedroia, Bradley up the middle.

As are opposing pitching staffs.

/turd in punchbowl


The additional benefit to Christian showing well here is the increased trade value this now gives to Swihart (or to Christian himself) as we can include these redundant players into a Stanton deal without feeling a bite at the major league level.

 

[jscola85]

The strike-'em out throw-'em out double play in the first inning was a thing of beauty. The speed he released the ball was impressive -- the absolute on the money laser he threw to nail him by 2 feet was epic.
 
The FO will have an interesting decision on their hands when (barring a setback) Swihart starts really knocking on the door around May of next year.

 
That's a good problem to have.  You could play Vazquez 100-110 games at catcher, then put Swihart in there for 50-60 to start and another 50-60 at either 1B or DH.  That way both of them get 100+ games.

 

[Rasputin]

I dunno. But I have seen a bunch of Sox squads incontinent up the middle.

 
I hate the autocorrect on my frikkin tablet. 
 

The Reds had Bench/Morgan/Concepcion/Geronimo four straight years, 74-77.

I thought for sure those late nineties Cleveland squads with Lofton, Vizquel, and the Brothers Alomar would have matched up one year, but Sandy Jr won his only glove in 1990.

The Weaver-era Orioles fielded 5 gold glove threesomes - Belanger, Paul Blair, and Bobby Grich/Davey Johnson, but never had a catcher win one during that time.

 
Thanks, I should have thought of those Reds teams.
 

As are opposing pitching staffs.

/turd in punchbowl

 
And the confidence that they are going to be offensively challenged comes from where exactly?
 

 
That's a good problem to have.  You could play Vazquez 100-110 games at catcher, then put Swihart in there for 50-60 to start and another 50-60 at either 1B or DH.  That way both of them get 100+ games.

 
That's what I want to see.

 

[Rasputin]

How would that work, though? Swihart would start 50-60 games at catcher, 50-60 games at first, and that's it? Who starts the other 100 games at first base? Someone who isn't good enough to play the position full time? If Vazquez is an excellent defensive catcher, as it seems, wouldn't you want him catching 120-130 games there?

 
It's not like Swihart is a bad defensive catcher. The idea is that you can extend both of their careers (and quite possibly those of David Ortiz and Mike Napoli) by giving them more rest. Vazquez catches four days a week, Swihart three. On the days when Vazquez is catching, you rotate Ortiz, Napoli, and Swihart among first and DH.

 

[The X Man Cometh]

Am I the only one who replayed that MLB.com highlight a bunch of times, and took a stopwatch to his pop time? Got him at 1.74

 

[johnnywayback]

That's a good problem to have.  You could play Vazquez 100-110 games at catcher, then put Swihart in there for 50-60 to start and another 50-60 at either 1B or DH.  That way both of them get 100+ games.

 
Perhaps, but that seems like a poor use of resources long-term.  
 
I'm #teamvazquez because, if his defensive gifts really are what they appear to be, that's a weapon you can't replicate, no matter who else is on your roster.  It's not like, say, the outfield, where JBJ in center and Victorino in right means we can put a statue in left, and it's not like the lineup, where you can get away with a liability in the #9 hole if the hitters around him can make up for it. 
 
Besides, I think we're only beginning to understand how important pitch-framing skills are, and I have to think his talent there is only going to become more valuable as we do.  Basically, in my mind, he'd have to be a true offensive liability to not be my Catcher of the Future.
 
I also really like Swihart, who looks like he could offer above-average offense and average-to-above-average defense.  But he's worth more to a team that doesn't have its own Junior Molina, and so I'd rather take advantage of that.
 
That all assumes, of course, that Vazquez ISN'T a true offensive liability, and I'm really glad we ditched AJP so we could start to find out in advance of whatever Stanton/Heyward/BinkyTK talks we end up having this winter.

 

[jscola85]

 
Perhaps, but that seems like a poor use of resources long-term.  
 
I'm #teamvazquez because, if his defensive gifts really are what they appear to be, that's a weapon you can't replicate, no matter who else is on your roster.  It's not like, say, the outfield, where JBJ in center and Victorino in right means we can put a statue in left, and it's not like the lineup, where you can get away with a liability in the #9 hole if the hitters around him can make up for it. 
 
Besides, I think we're only beginning to understand how important pitch-framing skills are, and I have to think his talent there is only going to become more valuable as we do.  Basically, in my mind, he'd have to be a true offensive liability to not be my Catcher of the Future.
 
I also really like Swihart, who looks like he could offer above-average offense and average-to-above-average defense.  But he's worth more to a team that doesn't have its own Junior Molina, and so I'd rather take advantage of that.
 
That all assumes, of course, that Vazquez ISN'T a true offensive liability, and I'm really glad we ditched AJP so we could start to find out in advance of whatever Stanton/Heyward/BinkyTK talks we end up having this winter.

 
There's no guarantee, not even likely a probabilistic likelihood, that it turns out both Swihart and Vazquez become catchers deserving to play 110+ games per year behind the plate.  If it comes to the point where that is clearly the case (analogous I guess to the Carlos Santana / Yan Gomes scenario), then you either trade one of them for a premium player at another position, or you make Swihart a full-time 1B.  There's nobody in the system at 1B who is a clear-cut stud who Swihart would block like we had with Rizzo before.

 

[Rasputin]

 
Perhaps, but that seems like a poor use of resources long-term.  

 
It seems to me the complete opposite. It's sacrificing a little something in the short term for a long term benefit. The point of it, from my point of view, is to extend the careers of not just Vazquez and Swihart, but Napoli and Ortiz.
 
Give them more days off and maybe you can ensure they're available for the games that really matter the most, whether those are post season games or August and September games in a close pennant race.

 

[doctorogres]

Most scouting reports have commented that Swihart is athletic enough to play a position higher up on the defensive spectrum, like 2B, 3B or the outfield.

 

[LondonSox]

Using Swihart as an OF would seem a vast misuse of resources. His high value comes from his defense at a premium position, plus the bat. Not the bat alone, which is good but not great.
If he's good enough to play the OF and you don't need a catcher, a trade would surely make more sense. He' s more valuable to someone else as a catcher than he is to the Sox as an OF.

 

[Rasputin]

Using Swihart as an OF would seem a vast misuse of resources. His high value comes from his defense at a premium position, plus the bat. Not the bat alone, which is good but not great.
If he's good enough to play the OF and you don't need a catcher, a trade would surely make more sense. He' s more valuable to someone else as a catcher than he is to the Sox as an OF.

Except of course that you do need a catcher because you don't want to play any catcher 162 games. Using Swihart at first would make the rest of the bench a bit longer and likely keep Swihart and Vazquez healthier.

 

[dbn]

I've been on the road and missing Red Sox baseball the past ten days or so. I just looked up some of his highlights on MLB.TV.
 
Wow.

 

[doctorogres]

Yes, I understand positional value too. Just pointing out that he doesn't necessarily have to get the extra time at 1B if they split between Vazquez and Swihart. Earlier when he was still new to catching, the view was that his bat would play at several different positions if catching didn't work out. I agree with you, though, that since he's taken to it so well (50% CS and no PB, as well as good scouting reports) it doesn't make any sense to move him. WRT his defense, he's supposedly very smooth and fluid, and the Sox have had to opportunity to basically build his receiving from the ground up, since he mainly played shortstop in high school. Not saying he's as good as Vazquez, but I think it'll be hard to really take a side until we get a bigger sample size from both of them.
 
Check out this little fluff piece on Vazquez, by the way:
 

“Good receivers and framers are kind of like infielders with soft hands. Those hands are god given. Don’t get me wrong; you can get better with proper instruction … working low to high so that sink and low off-speed pitches can be framed correctly.”
 

 

[Granite Sox]

There was a short segment on the Sox pre-game show last night featuring Vazquez' work.
 
What struck me was the comment about "how still" his body is behind the plate, and that he has "strong hands".  Several replays were shown where CV's body literally did not move an inch from the time the pitcher was in motion to when the ball hit the glove.  The only movement was CV slightly moving his hand downward to pluck the ball and simultaneously pull it up an inch or two into the zone to get the strike call.  I think it was Wakefield who mentioned that a quiet body helps CV steal a call or two by virtue of minimizing distracting movements for the umpire.  It was fascinating.
 
It has been mentioned several times in the media how few dropped balls he has had.  Contrast that with AJP's Curly-Howard-running-in-circles routine that was on display 2-3 times a game.
 
Still body.  Strong hands.  I believe he has calm eyes as well.

 

[Soxfan in Fla]

There was a short segment on the Sox pre-game show last night featuring Vazquez' work.
 
What struck me was the comment about "how still" his body is behind the plate, and that he has "strong hands".  Several replays were shown where CV's body literally did not move an inch from the time the pitcher was in motion to when the ball hit the glove.  The only movement was CV slightly moving his hand downward to pluck the ball and simultaneously pull it up an inch or two into the zone to get the strike call.  I think it was Wakefield who mentioned that a quiet body helps CV steal a call or two by virtue of minimizing distracting movements for the umpire.  It was fascinating.
 
It has been mentioned several times in the media how few dropped balls he has had.  Contrast that with AJP's Curly-Howard-running-in-circles routine that was on display 2-3 times a game.
 
Still body.  Strong hands.  I believe he has calm eyes as well.

Any chance he has an elegant gait too?

 

[jscola85]

Using Swihart as an OF would seem a vast misuse of resources. His high value comes from his defense at a premium position, plus the bat. Not the bat alone, which is good but not great.
If he's good enough to play the OF and you don't need a catcher, a trade would surely make more sense. He' s more valuable to someone else as a catcher than he is to the Sox as an OF.

 
If you are a team with somewhat strapped resources I can see this argument, but (a) early in his career Swihart will likely provide tons of surplus value relative to his salary no matter where he plays and (b) a big-budget team like the Sox can afford to mis-use resources a little bit to field the best team.  It sounds great to say that if Vazquez and Swihart both pan out that you should trade one of them, but it's not a perfectly efficient market - there's no guarantee you can go out and find equal value for one of them at a different position.

 

[nattysez]

Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs likes Christian Vazquez's defense a little bit.  The .gifs are worth your click.  Sullivan says in the article that one of them made him laugh, and that same .gif made me laugh before I read Sullivan's write up. 
 

The numbers are on Vazquez’s side. The reputation is on Vazquez’s side. The visuals are on Vazquez’s side. It’s all pointing to the same place: Christian Vazquez, as a receiver, is an absolute gem. And if he isn’t the best in the majors, he’s got to be among them. Perhaps he’s not Jose Molina. He’s probably not Jose Molina, yet. But Vazquez is this good at 23, with this little experience. His presence means Red Sox pitchers get to throw to both him and David Ross, and that’s going to make a lot of pitchers happy. That’s going to make a lot of young pitchers more comfortable.
 

 

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Thanks for finding that piece - love the map of stolen strikes. And the gifs are brilliant (not sure if it speaks to Vazquez's ability to the umps' incompetence, but either way...). 
 
It's definitely a jones to watch the Sox lose over and over again, but watching Vazquez and JBJ play defense is just about worth tuning in all by itself. 
 
Both are generational defensive talents, in my opinion. 

 

[Puffy]

Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs likes Christian Vazquez's defense a little bit.  The .gifs are worth your click.  Sullivan says in the article that one of them made him laugh, and that same .gif made me laugh before I read Sullivan's write up. 
 
 

 
Here's the GIF that made Jeff Sullivan and nattysez laugh: 
 

 

[uncannymanny]

Every time his glove goes out and back in it's so fast it looks like half the frames were removed. Amazing. The low strike and the one up and out to the lefty are masterful.

 

[jscola85]

 
Here's the GIF that made Jeff Sullivan and nattysez laugh: 
 

 
Seeing this vs. the butchery we experienced with AJP and Salty makes me weep in joy.  With the way our young guys have been walking batters this week, we're going to need him to steal every possible pitch.

 

[BornToRun]

That gif is absurd. His glove hardly moves.

 

[OCD SS]

With Vazquez behind the plate I am no longer quite so eager for an automated strike zone.

 

[gammoseditor]

Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs likes Christian Vazquez's defense a little bit.  The .gifs are worth your click.  Sullivan says in the article that one of them made him laugh, and that same .gif made me laugh before I read Sullivan's write up. 
 
 

 
In this link there's a strike zone graphic with ball/strike calls that's pretty unreal.  I'd copy and paste it over if I knew how.  Unless someone gets it in this thread I strongly recommend everyone click the link to see it. 

 

[LondonSox]

With Vazquez behind the plate I am no longer quite so eager for an automated strike zone.

 
This is a really really good point 

 

[tomdeplonty]

 
This is just unreal. The article points out he hardly ever gets robbed, either - only a few strikes called balls. And great gobs of balls called strikes. Half another strike zone's worth, it looks like.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

To be fair though, that's a very rough estimation of a strike zone, and the ones away to lefties is a strike most people get.

 

[GBrushTWood]

 
I'm not sure which is more impressive: him stealing strikes that should be balls, or ensuring that most pitches thrown in the strike zone are called as strikes. Either way, early returns indicate Vazquez has a future here. 
 
Really impressive chart by FanGraphs as well. The lay person can totally understand what's going on with that chart.

 

[Boggs26]

I'd love to see a few other versions of this graph for comparison. AJP? Molinas, Ross, etc. Anyone know if FG has them for other players?

 

[Al Zarilla]

As framing gets more attention all the time, won't umpires be looking for it more, and falling for it less? Umpires aren't stupid (well, a few are) and they don't like to be shown up, which framing sort of does. Or, are the best framers so quick that the ump, because he's concentrating on the ball so much, miss it? Whatever, Vaz is definitely a huge breath of fresh air, as well as a much better defensive catcher compared with that other guy. AJP can't even bend over well anymore and that's your passed balls and wild pitches that maybe should have been  passed balls.

 

[BornToRun]

Vazquez is going to be insanely valuable if he can keep up what he's doing with his bat right now. The defense is already otherworldly so if he can keep hitting at or around the .280/.345/370 line he's putting up now, we'll be looking at a really good baseball player.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

As framing gets more attention all the time, won't umpires be looking for it more, and falling for it less? Umpires aren't stupid (well, a few are) and they don't like to be shown up, which framing sort of does. Or, are the best framers so quick that the ump, because he's concentrating on the ball so much, miss it? Whatever, Vaz is definitely a huge breath of fresh air, as well as a much better defensive catcher compared with that other guy. AJP can't even bend over well anymore and that's your passed balls and wild pitches that maybe should have been  passed balls.

There is a difference between someone "framing" a pitch and a someone actually framing a pitch.
 
The umpire doesn't know when the good ones do it, that's what makes them good. It's all about the reference of the glove movement.  When most catchers catch a ball away, their glove goes away and then they try to pull it back to the zone.
 
The best framers don't let the momentum of the ball take a pitch any further from the zone, so the movement is just back into the zone.  So instead of a "Out then In" movement it's just a "In" movement.  Basically they cut down on the glove movement by at least half, and that makes all the difference in the world.
 
That's hard to articulate on a message board, but basically Vazquez doesn't let the momentum of the pitch dictate his glove movement, it's the other way around.  It takes really really strong hands and a ton of practice to accomplish that.

 

[Al Zarilla]

There is a difference between someone "framing" a pitch and a someone actually framing a pitch.
 
The umpire doesn't know when the good ones do it, that's what makes them good. It's all about the reference of the glove movement.  When most catchers catch a ball away, their glove goes away and then they try to pull it back to the zone.
 
The best framers don't let the momentum of the ball take a pitch any further from the zone, so the movement is just back into the zone.  So instead of a "Out then In" movement it's just a "In" movement.  Basically they cut down on the glove movement by at least half, and that makes all the difference in the world.
 
That's hard to articulate on a message board, but basically Vazquez doesn't let the momentum of the pitch dictate his glove movement, it's the other way around.  It takes really really strong hands and a ton of practice to accomplish that.

No, you did articulate it. I get what you're saying. 

 

[Detts]

If you page down to the bottom of the comments section you will find a certain someone using his 15 games of data to extrapolate his WAR for 2014.
 
I'm guessing a lot of you know who before even clicking...

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

 
Can't convince the ump of the high strike, eh?  Figures.
 
/typical SoSH fan

 

[Reverend]

There is a difference between someone "framing" a pitch and a someone actually framing a pitch.
 
The umpire doesn't know when the good ones do it, that's what makes them good. It's all about the reference of the glove movement.  When most catchers catch a ball away, their glove goes away and then they try to pull it back to the zone.
 
The best framers don't let the momentum of the ball take a pitch any further from the zone, so the movement is just back into the zone.  So instead of a "Out then In" movement it's just a "In" movement.  Basically they cut down on the glove movement by at least half, and that makes all the difference in the world.
 
That's hard to articulate on a message board, but basically Vazquez doesn't let the momentum of the pitch dictate his glove movement, it's the other way around.  It takes really really strong hands and a ton of practice to accomplish that.

 
Well put. And yet even this omits the subtlety of moving the glove a bit forward for balls tailing out of the strike zone and a big back for those tailing in to further reduce the amount of lateral movement necessary to bring the glove back into the zone.
 
There's a limit to what the umpire can reasonably be expected to assess on a pitch coming in at 90+ mph, especially when people look askance at late calls as suspect.

 

[jscola85]

Vazquez is going to be insanely valuable if he can keep up what he's doing with his bat right now. The defense is already otherworldly so if he can keep hitting at or around the .280/.345/370 line he's putting up now, we'll be looking at a really good baseball player.

 
Vazquez has always shown in the minors to be a pretty solid hitter - it just seems that every year he has one ~30 game stretch where he just absolutely shts the bed at the plate.  If he can rid himself of those really awful stretches, he will likely develop a league-average bat.
 
The good news is his line right now suggests what he's doing isn't all luck.  He's walking almost as much as he is striking out and is rarely swinging and missing (just 5.6%).  His LD% is not fantastic at 17% but his BABIP isn't way off the MLB average either.  Even if all he settles into is .260/.325/.350, that'd be about league-average for a catcher.  League-average hitting with elite arm/framing would be a remarkably valuable player, especially for a kid not yet 24 years old.

 

[Doooweeeey!]

We hear about catcher/home plate umpire camaraderie, how they hold a certain amount of respect for each other during the course of a game/series/season.  (It's dangerous work after all.)
 
For an umpire to feel/know/trust the human backstop in front of him receives the ball very well has to have a positive effect on the catcher's strike zone, doesn't it?
An umpire can surely sense when a catcher is doing his job well, and sub-consciously rewards him for it.
 
Obviously this is impossible to quantify and no umpire would admit it publicly.  I think there's something to it.
 
Edit:  Perhaps in addition to having the technical receiving skills mentioned, a "good framing catcher" does things that make HP umps comfortable?
Edit 2:  That's better...

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

As soon as we get the robotic strike zone that so many of us have called for, this advantage will go away.

Enjoy it while it lasts, I guess.

 

[PrometheusWakefield]

 
Vazquez has always shown in the minors to be a pretty solid hitter - it just seems that every year he has one ~30 game stretch where he just absolutely shts the bed at the plate.  If he can rid himself of those really awful stretches, he will likely develop a league-average bat.
 
The good news is his line right now suggests what he's doing isn't all luck.  He's walking almost as much as he is striking out and is rarely swinging and missing (just 5.6%).  His LD% is not fantastic at 17% but his BABIP isn't way off the MLB average either.  Even if all he settles into is .260/.325/.350, that'd be about league-average for a catcher.  League-average hitting with elite arm/framing would be a remarkably valuable player, especially for a kid not yet 24 years old.

And I'm really dreaming here but if you compare Vazquez minor league numbers:
 
2011 A+ .360/.396/.756
2012 AA .376/.395/.771
2013 AAA .336/.385/.721
 
to Yadier Molina
 
2002 A .331/.384/.715
2003 AA .327/.332/.659
2004 AAA .387/.392/.779
 
.,,and you can see the potential here for a star if he could develop a little power.
 
And yes, catcher offense develops late.

 

[jscola85]

Yadier was a bit younger, but apt comparison.  Hell, even if his bat never develops like Yadi's did post-2010, he'd still be 3-4 win player between an average bat an elite defense.

 

[The X Man Cometh]

Whether it has any bearing on winning baseball games is open to debate. But so far one thing about Vazquez that has stood out is his demeanor as a player. Always fist pumping (excellent fist pumps above replacement) and clapping after big plays, pointing at his pitcher after strike 3, getting heated after he makes outs. Seems awfully confident for a rookie catcher.

 

[twibnotes]

Whether it has any bearing on winning baseball games is open to debate. But so far one thing about Vazquez that has stood out is his demeanor as a player. Always fist pumping (excellent fist pumps above replacement) and clapping after big plays, pointing at his pitcher after strike 3, getting heated after he makes outs. Seems awfully confident for a rookie catcher.

Adding to this, he has also shown a good approach at the plate, including in some key situations (RISP). He doesn't look overwhelmed by the situation or level of play at this point.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
Vazquez has always shown in the minors to be a pretty solid hitter - it just seems that every year he has one ~30 game stretch where he just absolutely shts the bed at the plate.  If he can rid himself of those really awful stretches, he will likely develop a league-average bat.
 
The good news is his line right now suggests what he's doing isn't all luck.  He's walking almost as much as he is striking out and is rarely swinging and missing (just 5.6%).  His LD% is not fantastic at 17% but his BABIP isn't way off the MLB average either.  Even if all he settles into is .260/.325/.350, that'd be about league-average for a catcher.  League-average hitting with elite arm/framing would be a remarkably valuable player, especially for a kid not yet 24 years old.

What would Swihart's offensive line need to be to prove equal to Vazquez? Which one has greater trade value? It will be interesting to see how this shakes out moving forward.