What does Red Sox starting pitching look like in 2024?

grepal

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Literally there are like 13 guys who did that last year, but Montgomery was just under 6 IP per start. Kirby and Gilbert were right around 6 IP/start. Burnes just over. That's it for even theoretical options. Guys like Giolito and Snell were a bit closer to 5IP/start. The league leader, Logan Webb, was at
So what do they need? Two SP, a 2B, and a DH/1B/OF?
Probably an up grade at catcher too. Sox need starters to go deeper, plain and simple. So tired of guys not getting through 5 innings. Bullpen worn down due to that. Spend the money, Sox have it and make it.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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DH? This may be the first post over the multiple threads concerning the team's upcoming season that has questioned the need for a DH. I do see that you include DH as a slash, but still that slot can be filled on a rotational basis throughout the roster.
Well, they need another bat who can backup 1b, and ideally play some OF. Presumably, this person would DH a fair amount too. The article posted today referenced Duvall as a possibility, I guess Turner could be as well.
 

JM3

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So what do they need? Two SP, a 2B, and a DH/1B/OF?
Need is always relative. There's definitely room for upgrades. Current depth chart if they started the season today would probably be like...

C Wong/McGuire
1B Casas/Dalbec
2B Reyes/Valdez/Rafaela
SS Story/Rafaela/Reyes
3B Devers/Reyes/Dalbec
OF Yoshida/Duran/O'Neill/Abreu/Refsnyder/Rafaela/Dalbec

Which is 1 too many bench guys. As currently situated, 1 of Valdez or Rafaela could start the season in AAA. Obviously not having Dalbec near our team would be my preference.

SP Bello
SP Sale
SP Crawford
SP Houck
SP Pivetta

CL Jansen
RP Martin
RP Whitlock
RP Winckowski
RP Schreiber
RP Bernardino (L)

Then 2 spots for some combo of Campbell/Weissert/Mata/Jacques/Llovera/Weiss/Slaten (R5)/Kelly/Murphy/Walter.

Slaten has to be in MLB or returned & Mata & Llovera are out of options. The rest of the guys can be shuttled.

2 starters seems right. Bullpen should have plenty of interesting pieces, especially if you add 2 of our starters to the group. Seems like too much depth & at that point I think you trade Pivetta if you haven't traded someone else for upgrades elsewhere, but getting the 2 starters quickly would be ideal regardless.
 

BigSoxFan

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Any thoughts on Jung Hoo Lee’s price? I’m intrigued by the possibility of signing him and then using Duran as part of a deal for a SP. This would also allow for Rafaela to be used in a deal or get more seasoning in AAA. But it seems like most expect him to sign on the West Coast with teams like SD due to their Korean connections.
 

burstnbloom

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I think you're looking at this the wrong way. I wouldn't think Kirby would be on the table, but if we were paying Logan Gilbert $23.5m for 3 years & Robbie Ray the minimum this year & then arb rates the next 2 years (& then getting a 4th year of Gilbert at his arb rate) that would be a pretty sweet deal & totally tenable.

BTV just being problematic again.

Per FanGraphs Gilbert has been worth $25.1m & $25.4. the last 2 years. & Ray was worth $31.3m in '21 & $13.9m in '22 & at 32 isn't really a completely lost cause once he recovers.
we agree here. I should have used a different word to describe Ray. I think that contract is looked at as one of the most toxic in the sport and that it would be such an anchor to value that Seattle would essentially get nothing substantial in return. They are already being lambasted for being cheap so I’m hesitant to imagine they’d make a deal like that.

if they would, the Red Sox absolutely should do it it’s just hard to see it happening.
 

GPO Man

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Most people still have Mayer as the #1 prospect in the Red Sox system & the vast majority of the rest have Mayer 2nd. Don't know why he would be more available than Roman or Teel.

Maybe if Story was playing better & we had a 2B...
His value may have dipped a little because of his slump/injury so I wouldn’t trade him low anyways.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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I dunno; they could win if they just add Lugo and someone else- in the same way that last years team with Eovaldi and Lugo, but not Kluber would have been decent. Much of next years success is going to be determined by what the team gets out of Bello, Story, Casas, Sale, Houck, etc.
Cross posted from the "rumors" thread since I'll at least try my best to discuss "non-rumors" in other areas.

I THINK we agree here, but I'm not sure. Hahaha.

I can't think of anyone that would make the argument Eovladi isn't at bare minimum a really good #3 starting pitcher in the game. I think of him more as a pretty good SP2 that seems to pitch really well in the playoffs (John Lackey), albeit with enough track record of injury history that it keeps him squarely in the "pretty good SP2 range" as opposed to a high end SP2 or even an SP1, at least for me.

So yes, I think if the Red Sox added a clear SP2, to go along with Bello, then added Lugo, they could be above .500 That's both a heck of a lot better than last year's rotation and should put them more squarely in WC3 contention than they have been in 2022 or 2023, but I think it's still a heck of a long way behind Houston, Texas, Toronto, Baltimore and probably NY with their adds (and I can't imagine they're done).

If they want to go all 3/4 route (where I put Lugo) I think they'd need to add three of them because of the range of outcomes for those pitchers.

Sure, Lugo could become the only pitcher I can think of to go from being a career relief pitcher to a reliable 27 start good SP after the age of 32. Just like Sale could be healthy for a full year for the first time in 5 seasons (I'm throwing out 2020), but I'm not betting on it. Which doesn't mean I hate Lugo or would really be against signing him. Just that I think you need multiple versions of him to insure against all the error bars.

So Bello, "Gilbert", Lugo, Imanaga, Crawford, 12 starts from Sale could be pretty good (adding in a clear SP2).

I can also see a path to relevancy with something like Bello, Stroman, Lugo, Giolito, Crawford, 12 starts from Sale (adding 3 guys in the 3/4 range).

If you're banking on something like Bello, Lugo, Imanaga, Crawford, Sale, Houck then I think I'll be certainly putting in another prediction for less than 80 wins. (I went 79 last year and was too bullish; I'd peg that rotation for team that gets around 75 wins in the current AL East and AL landscape).
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Then why the heck did Breslow trade him for a relief pitcher?!?!



Urias is also a reason why I think it's dangerous to play the "and just save money for X free agent class" game. Urias is a scumbag. Ohtani got hurt (didn't seem to bother his market), Giolito had a down year, Nola apparently was just using FA to get the best deal from Philly and Sonny Gray only wanted to go to StL.

Someone like Montgomery (not great, but a solid presence at the top of the rotation) is out there now for just money and - ostensibly at least - seriously considering coming to Boston. They should just go out there, get that done now, and then see if the rest of the off-season allows for adding another top half SP to truly contend for titles again OR if you've simply filled a gigantic hole in the organizational SP chart for the medium / long term.
 

jbupstate

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Apologies if already discussed and that it’s not for 2024….

If the Sox lose out on Yamamoto, BS and JM. What would it cost in trade with the Brewers for Brandon Woodruff? Could the Sox sign him to an extension? The Glasnow extension seems reasonable.
 

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Apologies if already discussed and that it’s not for 2024….

If the Sox lose out on Yamamoto, BS and JM. What would it cost in trade with the Brewers for Brandon Woodruff? Could the Sox sign him to an extension? The Glasnow extension seems reasonable.
He's a free agent. And out for the year.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Apologies if already discussed and that it’s not for 2024….

If the Sox lose out on Yamamoto, BS and JM. What would it cost in trade with the Brewers for Brandon Woodruff? Could the Sox sign him to an extension? The Glasnow extension seems reasonable.
No cost in trade; he was non-tendered and is a FA. Not likely to pitch this year, I believe.
 

chawson

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This is such a tough spot Breslow’s in. A huge, loud, and ridiculous chunk of the fan base and media are committed to the narrative of Sox futility, and are poised to say Breslow’s no different from his predecessor. He has to do things differently — it's implied by the fact of his hiring — and we should operate differently than the last few years. It's time to. But different for different’s sake could lead us down so many disastrous paths.

All in on Yamamoto of course, but it’s a hell of a lot trickier after that. No one wants to see a rotation that includes more than one of Houck, Whitlock, Crawford or Pivetta. But would it be that surprising if any of those guys turns in a 3.75 ERA, 3-win season next year with health, decent defense, and a pitch or repertoire tweak from Andrew Bailey?

Breslow's task is to get two guys assuredly better than the ones he’s bumps from the rotation. That’s an extremely short list of pitchers. I don't think it include non-aces on the wrong side of 30, like Stroman, Manaea, Lugo or Wacha — at least not on the 3+ year deals they're getting. Giolito, who is 30 in July, has potential upside, but will be much more expensive than whoever he bumps from the Sox rotation and no sure bet to improve upon him.

A team with Jordan Montgomery is better than one without him, but how much is he an improvement over Tanner Houck?

April 1-June 16, 2023 (the date Houck was hit by a line drive):
Houck: 13 starts, 67.2 IP | 3.82 xFIP
Montgomery: 14 starts, 78.1 IP | 3.94 xFIP

2024 projections (Steamer)

Houck: 23 starts, 133 IP | 4.15 FIP
Montgomery: 32 starts, 188 IP, 4.01 FIP

Is that difference worth 7 or 8 years, $160-180 million?
 

simplicio

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A team with Jordan Montgomery is better than one without him, but how much is he an improvement over Tanner Houck?

April 1-June 16, 2023 (the date Houck was hit by a line drive):
Houck: 13 starts, 67.2 IP | 3.82 xFIP
Montgomery: 14 starts, 78.1 IP | 3.94 xFIP

2024 projections (Steamer)

Houck: 23 starts, 133 IP | 4.15 FIP
Montgomery: 32 starts, 188 IP, 4.01 FIP

Is that difference worth 7 or 8 years, $160-180 million?
Geesh, Wacha for 2/32 should have been a no-brainer
Both Houck and Wacha have a similar trait. They can probably give you 120, maybe 130 good innings. For a team that's already got 3 solid innings eaters, that quality is probably more valuable than yet more quantity. The Red Sox are not in that position though; they already have more guys of that 120 IP profile than they can effectively use.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Geesh, Wacha for 2/32 should have been a no-brainer
If you believe that Yamamoto won't be ending up in Boston (or NYM) because there is probably at least one other factor that matters to him besides money, it's starting to get late pretty early. But Wacha can't go 130ip either and I'd be complaining about 1 yr and an option. Freaking find someone and invest in them. Stop trying this cobble it together every year method that has failed, and predictably so, and I think will continue to fail.



This is such a tough spot Breslow’s in.

All in on Yamamoto of course, but it’s a hell of a lot trickier after that. No one wants to see a rotation that includes more than one of Houck, Whitlock, Crawford or Pivetta. But would it be that surprising if any of those guys turns in a 3.75 ERA, 3-win season next year with health, decent defense, and a pitch or repertoire tweak from Andrew Bailey?

A team with Jordan Montgomery is better than one without him, but how much is he an improvement over Tanner Houck?

April 1-June 16, 2023 (the date Houck was hit by a line drive):
Houck: 13 starts, 67.2 IP | 3.82 xFIP
Montgomery: 14 starts, 78.1 IP | 3.94 xFIP

2024 projections (Steamer)

Houck: 23 starts, 133 IP | 4.15 FIP
Montgomery: 32 starts, 188 IP, 4.01 FIP

Is that difference worth 7 or 8 years, $160-180 million?
Edited down for reading sake, forgive me if this leads to anything being taken out of context, certainly not my intent.

I agree Breslow is in a tough spot for a lot of reasons. Many of which have nothing to do with the views of the fanbase. Most of which have to do with the fact that the pitching at the MLB level, the AAA level and the AA level is, on balance, horrendous.

Re Bailey and Sale, Houck, Whitlock, Pivetta and Crawford - no it wouldn't surprise me at all if he can turn one of them into a 30 starts 3.75ERA 3WAR pitcher - but it would surprise me greatly for him to turn more than one into that. The idea isn't that any one of them can't be better than Montgomery - sure they could - it's the idea that 4 of those 5 will probably be either a heck of a lot worse or injured, and we have no idea which one that is going to be. (Well, I'm confident Sale will be "better" and I'm confident that he's going to do it for less than 24 starts).

So adding in someone like Montgomery for the long term helps a great deal. Now you have two reliable SPs at the top of your rotation (JM and Bello), find one from that group and now it becomes three going into next season, and suddenly you're one add away from a real rotation.

So if Montgomery ISN'T an improvement over Tanner Houck, he's likely to be an improvement over the other 4. That is the issue the Sox are facing right now.

Think of the best crop of pitching prospects for the Sox around one time you can think of? For me that is probably Lester, Papelbon, Buchholz, Bowden and Masterson. Of that group exactly one became a reliable half of the rotation starter. That is the type of attrition rate you're talking about with really good pitching prospects. Just of the "young" pitchers, none of Crawford, Houck, Perales, Gonzalez, Monegro, Fitts, nor anyone in the entire organization (even Bello) is viewed across the industry as nearly the prospect Lester, Clay Buchholz or Jon Papelbon were.

You're looking at Bello (whom I think we all agree is good) and more likely a combination of Justin Masterson and Michael Bowden types. If Bailey is as great as we hope he is, I think he could reasonably make ONE into a really good rotation piece - and that would be a huge win.

Even if he does, you're still 3 starters short.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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If you believe that Yamamoto won't be ending up in Boston (or NYM) because there is probably at least one other factor that matters to him besides money, it's starting to get late pretty early. But Wacha can't go 130ip either and I'd be complaining about 1 yr and an option. Freaking find someone and invest in them. Stop trying this cobble it together every year method that has failed, and predictably so, and I think will continue to fail.





Edited down for reading sake, forgive me if this leads to anything being taken out of context, certainly not my intent.

I agree Breslow is in a tough spot for a lot of reasons. Many of which have nothing to do with the views of the fanbase. Most of which have to do with the fact that the pitching at the MLB level, the AAA level and the AA level is, on balance, horrendous.

Re Bailey and Sale, Houck, Whitlock, Pivetta and Crawford - no it wouldn't surprise me at all if he can turn one of them into a 30 starts 3.75ERA 3WAR pitcher - but it would surprise me greatly for him to turn more than one into that. The idea isn't that any one of them can't be better than Montgomery - sure they could - it's the idea that 4 of those 5 will probably be either a heck of a lot worse or injured, and we have no idea which one that is going to be. (Well, I'm confident Sale will be "better" and I'm confident that he's going to do it for less than 24 starts).

So adding in someone like Montgomery for the long term helps a great deal. Now you have two reliable SPs at the top of your rotation (JM and Bello), find one from that group and now it becomes three going into next season, and suddenly you're one add away from a real rotation.

So if Montgomery ISN'T an improvement over Tanner Houck, he's likely to be an improvement over the other 4. That is the issue the Sox are facing right now.

Think of the best crop of pitching prospects for the Sox around one time you can think of? For me that is probably Lester, Papelbon, Buchholz, Bowden and Masterson. Of that group exactly one became a reliable half of the rotation starter. That is the type of attrition rate you're talking about with really good pitching prospects. Just of the "young" pitchers, none of Crawford, Houck, Perales, Gonzalez, Monegro, Fitts, nor anyone in the entire organization (even Bello) is viewed across the industry as nearly the prospect Lester, Clay Buchholz or Jon Papelbon were.

You're looking at Bello (whom I think we all agree is good) and more likely a combination of Justin Masterson and Michael Bowden types. If Bailey is as great as we hope he is, I think he could reasonably make ONE into a really good rotation piece - and that would be a huge win.

Even if he does, you're still 3 starters short.
I'd actually put Lester, Papelbon (and add Anibel Sanchez) as a first wave that were all expected around 2005-2006 with the Buchholz, Bowden and Masterson group all ETA a year or two later for all of them. Just micro-detail nit-picking.
 

chawson

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Both Houck and Wacha have a similar trait. They can probably give you 120, maybe 130 good innings. For a team that's already got 3 solid innings eaters, that quality is probably more valuable than yet more quantity. The Red Sox are not in that position though; they already have more guys of that 120 IP profile than they can effectively use.
Definitely agree with you that we need some innings.

But are these essential traits of theirs, though? I don't see it. Houck, Crawford and Whitlock are different beasts, but each shares the fact that they've need to be stretched out as starters over the last few years.

Crawford went from a guy on no one's radar to throwing 100 innings in 2021 and 2022, and then 130 last year. That's a conventional arc for a young starter.

Houck threw 90 in 2021, 70 in 2022 (when he was bounced to the pen after 4 starts, possibly for vaccination-related reasons). He wasn't far off a normal starters' workload when he got hit by a liner last year, and finished with 106.

Whitlock threw 76 innings in 2021 a year removed from surgery. He threw about 85 in 2022 and 90 last year, nursing injuries. Is he incapable of handling a starters' workload? It's been discussed plenty, and I don't know the answer.

Pablo López had some workload concerns in 2019 and 2021, and then he didn't. Similar case with Justin Steele, Zach Eflin, Freddy Peralta. I remember when Jordan Montgomery missed the better part of two whole seasons.
 

jim_vh

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more and more of the backend rotation guys are getting signed up. I think the Sox need to get SOMEONE who is qualified to be an MLB starter signed up...NOW!!!!
 

Devizier

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Geesh, Wacha for 2/32 should have been a no-brainer
I think the big problem with him, aside from the low innings expectation, is his flyball propensities. The Sox did great by getting him as a rehab project, they probably should be looking at the next Wacha rather than the previous one (but not as their first option).
 

Ronnie_Dobbs

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We could entirely shake up the pitching philosophy of MLB as well. And if we miss out on the diminishing FA crop of good SP, then why not? Chances are we aren't going to be all that competitive next year anyway.

If we have 4 guys that can only get through the order twice - why not stack them having them each go 4+ innings every 5th day. At the end of the day, innings are innings right? If we aren't going to get more than 130 IP out of any number of starters, but those will be effective IP, use it to our advantage.

Maybe expecting 4 starters in this capacity is too ultra extreme but any two of the four we are most concerned about could do it:
Bello
Sale
Houck/Whitlock
Pivetta
Crawford

Then in theory we don't need the rest of the relievers to account for any of those innings so it shouldn't tax them any differently than normal.
Use our setup and closer guys like we normally would and then we have 5 more RPs to make up the rest.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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more and more of the backend rotation guys are getting signed up. I think the Sox need to get SOMEONE who is qualified to be an MLB starter signed up...NOW!!!!
16 starting pitchers (ranging from Ohtani at $700M to the immortal Ben Lively at $700K) have signed big league contracts so far this winter. That leaves somewhere around 50 more available. Panic is not necessary yet.
 

simplicio

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Definitely agree with you that we need some innings.

But are these essential traits of theirs, though? I don't see it. Houck, Crawford and Whitlock are different beasts, but each shares the fact that they've need to be stretched out as starters over the last few years.

Crawford went from a guy on no one's radar to throwing 100 innings in 2021 and 2022, and then 130 last year. That's a conventional arc for a young starter.

Houck threw 90 in 2021, 70 in 2022 (when he was bounced to the pen after 4 starts, possibly for vaccination-related reasons). He wasn't far off a normal starters' workload when he got hit by a liner last year, and finished with 106.

Whitlock threw 76 innings in 2021 a year removed from surgery. He threw about 85 in 2022 and 90 last year, nursing injuries. Is he incapable of handling a starters' workload? It's been discussed plenty, and I don't know the answer.

Pablo López had some workload concerns in 2019 and 2021, and then he didn't. Similar case with Justin Steele, Zach Eflin, Freddy Peralta. I remember when Jordan Montgomery missed the better part of two whole seasons.

Montgomery had TJ and came back healthy and has been rocking ever since, and with a whole lot less mileage on his arm with most guys his age.

Personally I'm done with the Whitlock as starter experiment. It didn't work. He sucked. Let's give him a role he's shown he can succeed at.

Crawford and Houck both present a problem of not going deep into games cause they suck so much after the 4th inning. Maybe this is something Bailey can fix in one or both, but even if Crawford had managed to make a full 32 starts this year his 4.68 IP/start would mean he still wouldn't break 150 innings (that would have had him dead last among those who did by a lot; Kikuchi was lowest at 167 and the average of the group was 184). And it's not something I want to bank on when we could just pay a guy who's proven he can do that job instead. We have the money.
 

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Montgomery had TJ and came back healthy and has been rocking ever since, and with a whole lot less mileage on his arm with most guys his age.

Personally I'm done with the Whitlock as starter experiment. It didn't work. He sucked. Let's give him a role he's shown he can succeed at.
He sucked as a reliever this year, too. His issue isn't role, it's health. He's going to be bad no matter where you put him unless he's healthy, and that's not something that happens often for him.
 

simplicio

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The health is another reason to keep him relieving though, it hurts the team a lot less if he goes down or is ineffective due to injury as a reliever.
 

jim_vh

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16 starting pitchers (ranging from Ohtani at $700M to the immortal Ben Lively at $700K) have signed big league contracts so far this winter. That leaves somewhere around 50 more available. Panic is not necessary yet.
Thanks for the reality check. I needed that!
 

nvalvo

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Thanks for the reality check. I needed that!
Also, it’s not like Michael Wacha (whom I like!) was some sort of sure thing to be better than Houck or Whitlock or Pivetta. He’s had two good seasons in a row; he’s also had two straight seasons with BABIPs in the .260s. Can he keep it up? Maybe! We’ll see, I guess. Best of luck to him in KC.

But give Nick Pivetta (or whomever) that luck on balls in play and he’ll put up good numbers, too. We have plenty of guys who *can* be MLB starting pitchers, but have question marks. We need to be shopping for front half of the rotation guys, and only a handful of those guys are off the board.
 

chawson

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Montgomery had TJ and came back healthy and has been rocking ever since, and with a whole lot less mileage on his arm with most guys his age.

Personally I'm done with the Whitlock as starter experiment. It didn't work. He sucked. Let's give him a role he's shown he can succeed at.

Crawford and Houck both present a problem of not going deep into games cause they suck so much after the 4th inning. Maybe this is something Bailey can fix in one or both, but even if Crawford had managed to make a full 32 starts this year his 4.68 IP/start would mean he still wouldn't break 150 innings (that would have had him dead last among those who did by a lot; Kikuchi was lowest at 167 and the average of the group was 184). And it's not something I want to bank on when we could just pay a guy who's proven he can do that job instead. We have the money.
Definitely agree we have the money and should sign a guy. I'm saying that after Yamamoto, it gets a little blurry.

Here's an assorted group of notable pitchers sorted by opposing batters' expected wOBA the third time through the order in 2023 (per Statcast):

Woodruff: .226
Sale: .247
Eflin: .260
Paxton: .273
Giolito: .275
Burnes: .293
Bello: .307
Nola: .311
Glasnow: .323
Gilbert: .324
Montgomery: .328
E. Rodriguez: .335
Houck: .337
Pivetta: .344
Kirby: .347
Webb: .347
Luzardo: .351
Lugo: .352
Snell: .353
Stroman: .353
Bassitt: .356
F. Valdez: .365
Wacha: .368
Gallen: .369
Crawford: .383
Schmidt: .390

Obviously not a comprehensive list, I just pulled out some interesting names that have been discussed here.
 

chrisfont9

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Definitely agree with you that we need some innings.

But are these essential traits of theirs, though? I don't see it. Houck, Crawford and Whitlock are different beasts, but each shares the fact that they've need to be stretched out as starters over the last few years.

Crawford went from a guy on no one's radar to throwing 100 innings in 2021 and 2022, and then 130 last year. That's a conventional arc for a young starter.

Houck threw 90 in 2021, 70 in 2022 (when he was bounced to the pen after 4 starts, possibly for vaccination-related reasons). He wasn't far off a normal starters' workload when he got hit by a liner last year, and finished with 106.

Whitlock threw 76 innings in 2021 a year removed from surgery. He threw about 85 in 2022 and 90 last year, nursing injuries. Is he incapable of handling a starters' workload? It's been discussed plenty, and I don't know the answer.

Pablo López had some workload concerns in 2019 and 2021, and then he didn't. Similar case with Justin Steele, Zach Eflin, Freddy Peralta. I remember when Jordan Montgomery missed the better part of two whole seasons.
This might be my favorite post so far, and what I was getting at yesterday in the Rumors thread about top 10 WAR pitchers. Good pitching often develops in quirky ways. Sure, you have a handful of guys who look like an ace from age 19, but a lot more guys who aren't on the national radar or top 100 prospects or whatever, who then show up and become solid mid-rotation guys. I'm fine with blowing a ton of money on Yamamoto or lesser amount on Montgomery, but I'm definitely not in favor of clearing out the prospect pool for some guys who might not out-pitch Pivetta, Crawford or Winckowski next year. The Red Sox haven't really lacked quality pitchers so much as reliable quality pitching, thanks to injuries ranging from "here we go again" to "you've got to be fucking kidding me." With one or two anchor types who you can build on, the Sox might be comfortably above average in pitching as soon as 2024.
 

The Gray Eagle

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I mentioned something similar on another thread, but Fenway's park effect makes all our pitchers look worse. Last year Fenway was second only to Coors Field for the worst park for pitchers, with a 108 park factor:
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/statcast-park-factors?type=year&year=2023&batSide=&stat=index_wOBA&condition=All&rolling=&sort=3&sortDir=desc

At Fenway, even though there were a below average number of HRs hit, there were a ton more doubles. That adds up to a higher run scoring environment than almost anywhere else.

This has to be accounted for when trying to evaluate players to bring in or keep.

The Padres, A's, Rays and Mets all had home park factors of 96 or below. The Rockies, Red Sox, Reds were all 106 or higher.

As an example, all those young Seattle pitchers look great, but their home park had a factor of 92 last year, 16 units better for pitchers than Fenway-- it was the lowest of all the regular MLB stadiums.
The Brewers were at 97 last year, so for example adding Burnes or Woodruff, you'd expect them to suffer a bit moving to a home park that is 11 units higher.

The park-adjusted ERA+ numbers on Baseball Reference show that most of the pitchers we are bringing back weren't as awful as they seemed last year. And that doesn't even factor in our horrendous defense last year:
https://theathletic.com/4930953/2023/10/05/red-sox-bad-defense-trevor-story/
The eye test would be enough for any spectator to know the Red Sox had a rough season on defense, but the underlying statistics are even worse. The Red Sox finished last in the majors by a wide margin with negative-51 Outs Above Average this season. The number looks that much more awful when compared to the second-worst team, the Reds, who posted a negative-36 OAA.
Not only were this year’s Red Sox awful compared to their peers this season, they rank as one of the worst defensive teams since Statcast started tracking OAA in 2016. Of the 240 teams tracked in that span, the 2023 Red Sox rank 239th. The 2017 Mets with negative-58 OAA were the only team worse.
The park and defense made our pitchers look worse than they actually were. We also had a quarter of our innings pitched by other guys (Kluber, etc.) who were definitely terrible under any circumstances, but almost all of them are gone already. Reducing the number of innings pitched by scrubs is a big need, but we already have quite a few guys in house who were above average last year by ERA+.

IMO the main goal in terms of adding pitchers is to get in at least one guy who is expected to be good and is likely to throw 180 or so innings. That alone would be huge for the whole staff.

Just don't expect that new guy to have an ERA under 3.00 or maybe even 3.50 pitching here. Any pitchers we bring in could very well likely have clearly worse numbers here than with their previous teams just due to the Fenway factor, even if we improve the defense and they throw the ball just as well as they did before.

To help the pitching, the defense has to be fixed. I'm hoping that Story and Rafaella play a lot of innings of defense this year and that we add a good fielder at 2B. If all 3 of those happen, along with some improvement from other guys from really bad to decent, that could transform the entire defense. But none of that is set yet.

Hopefully Breslow and Bailey will have a positive effect on the staff as well.

But I don't think we necessarily need to add 2 really good starters. If we did that but didn't improve the defense, then those 2 guys will likely be really disappointing and look like busts in their first season here. Add one guy who throws 180 good innings and also get better on D, and the whole staff would look much better, despite the park effects issue.

Park factors also indicate that our offense wasn't as good as it seemed last year and needs significant improvement as well, but that's a topic for a different thread.
 

jim_vh

Member
Gold Supporter
Dec 11, 2005
20
From Ed Hand's list of free agents, ranking 1-10 for starting pitchers separated by RH / LH


Righties:

10. Zack Greinke
9. Dakota Hudson
8. Spencer Turnbull
7. Frankie Montas
---
6. Michael Lorenzen
5. Lucas Giolito
4. Brandon Woodruff
3. Michael Wacha-- KCR
2. Marcus Stroman
---
1. Yoshinobu Yamamoto



Lefties:

10. Rich Hill
9. Hyun-Jin Ryu
8. Martin Perez
7. Alex Wood
6. Sean Manaea
5. James Paxton
4. Shota Imanaga
3. Clayton Kershaw
2. Jordan Montgomery
1. Blake Snell
 

EyeBob

New Member
Dec 22, 2022
138
From Ed Hand's list of free agents, ranking 1-10 for starting pitchers separated by RH / LH


Righties:

10. Zack Greinke
9. Dakota Hudson
8. Spencer Turnbull
7. Frankie Montas
---
6. Michael Lorenzen
5. Lucas Giolito
4. Brandon Woodruff
3. Michael Wacha-- KCR
2. Marcus Stroman
---
1. Yoshinobu Yamamoto



Lefties:

10. Rich Hill
9. Hyun-Jin Ryu
8. Martin Perez
7. Alex Wood
6. Sean Manaea
5. James Paxton
4. Shota Imanaga
3. Clayton Kershaw
2. Jordan Montgomery
1. Blake Snell
Honestly, how many of these guys do you really want to give a big contract to? 2? 3?
Thanks for posting this list. It helps to put things in perspective for me.
 

chawson

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
4,679
One guy I’d be interested to trade for is Griffin Canning on the Angels. He’s been hurt a lot since his prospect days but came back with excellent stuff last year and seems like an interesting project.

They’ve got a bare system and along with Drury soon, will probably trade Rengifo by next winter. So maybe something like Yorke, Walter and Meidroth for Canning and Drury could work? Or subtract one of those latter guys and send Tyler Anderson?
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
8,030
Boston, MA
Honestly, how many of these guys do you really want to give a big contract to? 2? 3?
Thanks for posting this list. It helps to put things in perspective for me.
That's the issue. Everyone wants to upgrade the rotation, but other than Stroman, Yamamoto, Snell, or Mongomery, who on that list is a lock to be better than Pivetta, Crawford, or Houck in 2024? If none of those guys wants to come to Boston, then you're really stuck with the trade route to make a useful addition.
 

picniclightning

New Member
Dec 7, 2005
30
I like Nick Pivetta as a 4-5 with Crawford.

Kutter's been getting some love on social media, shouldn't Nick get some too? Hopefully he found the proverbial something and hopefully he can keep it going with some consistency into 2024 which will be his walk year unless he's extended.

Pivetta
2023 2nd Half Splits

IP: 73.2
ERA: 3.30
K/9: 12.46
K/BB: 5.37
FIP: 3.28
XFIP: 2.80

Montgomery (for comparison only- not saying Pivetta is better)
2023 2nd Half Splits

IP: 85.2
ERA: 3.15
K/9: 7.35
K/BB: 3.33
FIP: 3.64
XFIP: 4.22

edit: typo
 
Last edited:

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,202
I'm a fan of Nick Pivetta. At least in some combination of depending on him as a 4/5 starter. He's durable, he generally doesn't suck and as far as the pitchers I'm most confident in being able to go out there and start around 30 games with around 160ip of not awful pitching, he and Bello are the only two I'd bet on.

There is nothing wrong with one of Crawford or Houck, and Pivetta as the 4 / 5 in a pretty decent rotation, and I'd personally like to see Pivetta extended on something akin to what Seth Lugo just signed for (and I'd even be good going up to 4/$60m/$15m for him). He's actually been worth an average of $15m each of the past 3 seasons as well, at least according to FanGraphs.

If we assume Bello is SP2, then it's SP1 and SP3 where I think think upgrades need to be made, because the Boston Error Bars rotation that's been sent out there the last two years isn't close to being a playoff rotation and again won't be in the AL East in 2024.
 

Cassvt2023

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 17, 2023
575
I'm a fan of Nick Pivetta. At least in some combination of depending on him as a 4/5 starter. He's durable, he generally doesn't suck and as far as the pitchers I'm most confident in being able to go out there and start around 30 games with around 160ip of not awful pitching, he and Bello are the only two I'd bet on.

There is nothing wrong with one of Crawford or Houck, and Pivetta as the 4 / 5 in a pretty decent rotation, and I'd personally like to see Pivetta extended on something akin to what Seth Lugo just signed for (and I'd even be good going up to 4/$60m/$15m for him). He's actually been worth an average of $15m each of the past 3 seasons as well, at least according to FanGraphs.

If we assume Bello is SP2, then it's SP1 and SP3 where I think think upgrades need to be made, because the Boston Error Bars rotation that's been sent out there the last two years isn't close to being a playoff rotation and again won't be in the AL East in 2024.
I agree for the most part on Pivetta. I think going to the bullpen last year was the best thing for his career. Instead of moping, he accepted his role and was borderline dominant for a couple months. He pitched with more conviction and attacked hitters instead of nibbling. Then when was needed to make some starts, he was still very good. (I loved that he continued to come out of the bullpen when starting. He has a little bit of crazy that most good pitchers have).

In a perfect world, We win the YY sweepstakes (i'd guess the chances are 20-25%) and also sign Imanaga (4 yr/90m?) while keeping our top 3 prospects.

Yamamoto
Bello
Imanaga
Pivetta
Sale
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,202
I agree for the most part on Pivetta. I think going to the bullpen last year was the best thing for his career. Instead of moping, he accepted his role and was borderline dominant for a couple months. He pitched with more conviction and attacked hitters instead of nibbling. Then when was needed to make some starts, he was still very good. (I loved that he continued to come out of the bullpen when starting. He has a little bit of crazy that most good pitchers have).

In a perfect world, We win the YY sweepstakes (i'd guess the chances are 20-25%) and also sign Imanaga (4 yr/90m?) while keeping our top 3 prospects.

Yamamoto
Bello
Imanaga
Pivetta
Sale
I fully advocate the acquisition of two starting pitchers for the top half of the rotation. At a certain level, I really don't care who they are at this point. Just go out, identify two pitchers you want here for the next 3 to 4 (at minimum) years while Breslow has a chance to actually try and build some pitching in farm system, and let Bailey and Breslow do their thing.

In your scenario (or mine) I'm very candidly going to Chris Sale and telling him that (an extended Nick Pivetta) and Kutter Crawford are part of the rotation and part of the future, and that he is not. I'd offer to try and find a trade if he would be open to waiving his no trade clause, and if he isn't, that he's going to be part of a 6 man rotation to help assuage the innings jump for Bello and Crawford. He cannot be depended upon to pitch a full season at age 35 when he hasn't done it for the last 5 seasons (I'm not counting 2020 against him) and if he's healthy, fine, but they should have a plan for their full rotation that doesn't include him, and he can be a +1 when he's able to pitch.