Which type of plate discipline is eating Panda?

[HomeRunBaker]

Your snark adds nothing to the discussion. There have been several attempts by MLB teams to void player contracts, some of which were partially successful as they did not have to pay the full amount.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2013/7/26/4557390/should-mlb-contracts-be-more-easily-voided-yankees-brewers-braun-rodriguez-biogenesis

In the NHL where they had a similar clause regarding conditioning, Vladimir Krutovs 3 yr contract was voided after 1 yr by the Canucks for reporting to camp out of shape. Not sure what the settlement was but he never played in the NHL again.

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1069&context=sportslaw
pg 7-8 of pdf

Not really saying the Red Sox could win this, but the threat (which does not need to be public) could get his attention. Some people don't respond to reason and it takes the hammer

A couple things here. You are citing two MLB players who were involved in illegal drugs that affected their physical skills. Sandoval has for all intent and purposes been on the identical diet he was the day the Red Sox signed him which is far far different than the "performance deception" that the BALCO guys had been accused.

Secondly, the Krotov thing you have so upside down I don't know where to begin. His contract was voided due to clauses initially added into the NHL contracts of the Russian Red Army players (at Russia's request) that stated these players couldn't be cut or sent to the minors instead it was agreed that if things didn't work out they would be returned to Russia. When these contracts were ripped up and resigned Krotov had already been a colossal failure on and off the ice that he never agreed to the new contract instead returned to Russia on his own. The lawsuit was about Russia being owed the transfer fees on the 2nd and 3rd years of the original contract.

So pretty much you can't terminate the contract of a player whose actions never changed since the day you signed him. GJGE
though.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Mo Vaughn was "pleasantly plump" as well...

While they are different players, I recall that Vaughn had a bit of "nimble for a large man" press, and so was curious and compared their stats.

Pablo: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sandopa01.shtml
Mo: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vaughmo01.shtml

Pablo is going into his age 29 season, and has been trending downward in just about every way since his really good age 24 season. He is signed through 2019, his age 32 season (buyout for 2020). On the other hand, Mo was pretty consistently good ages 26-30 before the injuries started. His age 31-32 seasons were decent - but then he fell off a cliff.

I have to think it's possible for a baseball player to have a good core, high conditioning, good skills, and yet carry some extra weight in the gut. Yet when one adds in age - I have to think that such a package is more likely to be successful at age 24 than age 31.

 

[Pinchrunner#2]

I have to think it's possible for a baseball player to have a good core, high conditioning, good skills, and yet carry some extra weight in the gut. Yet when one adds in age - I have to think that such a package is more likely to be successful at age 24 than age 31.

Plus we also have to keep in mind, that Sandoval plays a more demanding defensive position than Vaughn did, so this is even more true for Panda. You can also check CC Sabathia who also has weight problems and has the "injury-prone"-tag nowadays.

Sandovals value is bound to his good defensive work at 3rd base, since he has never been a star with his bat (.791 career OPS). And I believe, that you need to be very mobile and therefore not too fat to play that position adequately. It is puzzling to me that the FO hasnt set any hard weight goals for Sandoval this winter according to ESPN. They sure had the legitimation to do that after a season in which Sandoval put in a minus WAR. Hopefully he proves everybody wrong and shows that his bad season had nothing to do with him being obese.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

Like a lot of athletes as they get older, Sandoval strikes me as being a bit delusional. He likely doesn't see or believe that his skills and ability are gradually eroding. He probably attributes his bad stats to injury, not to decreasing ability. But we look at his statistical performance and see a decline - one that is highly likely to be attributable at least in part, if not large part, to the inability to do things at age 29 given his bloated size that he was able to do 5 years ago. Aging catches up to everyone, and those with particularly bad bodies don't tend to experience the aging process well. Athletes who "age well" often do so because they change their diets and work out routines to help offset the gradual loss of physical ability. Doesn't look like Pablo has figured that out yet.

Now, could he stay healthy and put up a 750 OPS+ with averagish defense for another year or two? Sure. But if I had to bet $1,000 of my own money, I wouldn't put it on him succeeding. (And yeah, I'm still baffled by the team's decision to give him a 5 year deal.)

 

[phenweigh]

Given the hypothetical choice between:

A) Pablo trims down, but continues to show a consistent inability to control the strike zone
B) Pablo continues to struggle with his weight, but consitently swings at pitches in the strike zone and doesn't chase crap

I'd take B.

Of course the choice is hypothetical and I'm about 90% certain his strike zone recognition won't improve, so I have very little hope of seeing Panda be a good hitter. The point is, IMO the weight issue is not the big a factor in a possible improvement in Sandoval's performance.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Just as fat as last year. I think fatter.

If Farrell has guts, he can't play him against lefties if he insists on being an automatic out from the right side

Soon enough the Sox need to cut their losses. This fucking guy is pathetic. He has a historically awful year and his initial response is there is NO problem. Sure he comes around to some BS speak saying he needs to work hard, blah fucking blah...this dude just be counting his money and living large.

But he had his best Panda smile on all the way throughout saying he never weighed himself but was doing all his work this winter. The smile doesn't trump the fat gut?

Please find a Matt Duffy somewhere, somehow, and send this guy back to VZ.

 

[Valek123]

Now, could he stay healthy and put up a 750 OPS+ with averagish defense for another year or two? Sure. But if I had to bet $1,000 of my own money, I wouldn't put it on him succeeding. (And yeah, I'm still baffled by the team's decision to give him a 5 year deal.)

This is my feeling in a nutshell, he's overweight, slow and likely to break down - none of that is a new revelation. This was widely criticized in the signing, the bottom line as always in Boston and MLB is this is a results business. If he produces we love Panda if he continues to suck his weight will be constantly talked about and likely will run him out of town. He seems largely naive or just indifferent to his results last year, he's healthy now so let's see what he can do - if it's as expected he'll be gone in July IMO.

WORP(weight over replacement player) isn't tracked yet but I have a sneaky suspicion that if he sucks this season it might just drag Eric Van out of SOSH retirement to discuss how Panda's not hibernating like most other bears is solely responsible for the continued weight gain of Pablo.

 

[shaggydog2000]

Plus we also have to keep in mind, that Sandoval plays a more demanding defensive position than Vaughn did, so this is even more true for Panda. You can also check CC Sabathia who also has weight problems and has the "injury-prone"-tag nowadays.

Sandovals value is bound to his good defensive work at 3rd base, since he has never been a star with his bat (.791 career OPS). And I believe, that you need to be very mobile and therefore not too fat to play that position adequately. It is puzzling to me that the FO hasnt set any hard weight goals for Sandoval this winter according to ESPN. They sure had the legitimation to do that after a season in which Sandoval put in a minus WAR. Hopefully he proves everybody wrong and shows that his bad season had nothing to do with him being obese.

Without a pre-negotiated weight clause in his contract, there isn't much a team can do. They can ask him to lose 20 lbs, but without any financial threat there, what good does that do? Now the only thing they can do is take away playing time, and it's not like there is a great option right behind him pushing him for that, so they don't have anything to threaten the guy with. Which is most likely why he came back in pretty much the same shape he left in.

 

[lexrageorge]

Plus we also have to keep in mind, that Sandoval plays a more demanding defensive position than Vaughn did, so this is even more true for Panda. You can also check CC Sabathia who also has weight problems and has the "injury-prone"-tag nowadays.

Sandovals value is bound to his good defensive work at 3rd base, since he has never been a star with his bat (.791 career OPS). And I believe, that you need to be very mobile and therefore not too fat to play that position adequately. It is puzzling to me that the FO hasnt set any hard weight goals for Sandoval this winter according to ESPN. They sure had the legitimation to do that after a season in which Sandoval put in a minus WAR. Hopefully he proves everybody wrong and shows that his bad season had nothing to do with him being obese.

We don't know if the bolded is correct. The ESPN report is in conflict with Dombrowski's earlier statements on the matter, and ESPN has been wrong before.

Assuming the Sox have set a goal, it will always be nothing more than a "soft" goal. Without a weight clause in his contract, there is nothing the Sox can do if Sandoval ignores their advice.

 

[soxhop411]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe 33s33 seconds ago
Dave Dombrowski said the #RedSox watched Sandoval work out all winter. They believe he is in better condition. "Not concerned," he said.

 

[Bernie Carbohydrate]

We don't know if the bolded is correct. The ESPN report is in conflict with Dombrowski's earlier statements on the matter, and ESPN has been wrong before.

Assuming the Sox have set a goal, it will always be nothing more than a "soft" goal. Without a weight clause in his contract, there is nothing the Sox can do if Sandoval ignores their advice.

Yep, I don't think the Sox are in any position to set a goal--either "hard" or "soft." One of Sandoval's motivations for leaving the Giants was their desire that he agree to a weight clause in his next contract:

"I'm a professional and I know what I have to do,'' said Sandoval, listed as 5-11 and 255. "I know where I've failed and how I've grown up. If I had signed (with the Giants), I knew I would be under a (weight) regimen for five years, and I'm not going to be happy someplace where I'm under that kind of regimen, where I can't be myself.''
​

Once Sandoval got his five years with the Sox, aside from gentle urging there was (and is) not much to be done. He views his weight as his own business, and any suggestion from management that he address his weight is an attack on who he is. That's a pretty hard stance to back away from.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

One Sandoval got his five years with the Sox, aside from gentle urging there was (and is) not much to be done. He views his weight as his own business, and any suggestion from management that he address his weight is an attack on who he is. That's a pretty hard stance to back away from.

Agree with this and I think part of the current perception problem is Farrell's stating that Panda lost "20-22" pounds. It's what we in the business call "managing expectations" and Farrell failed it. I think people would be a little less pissed if Farrell had said, "Look Panda is Panda. We know he's working out. He's in better shape. Is he going to look like Gabe Kapler? No. But he'll be ready. I'm sure of it."

 

[glennhoffmania]

Your snark adds nothing to the discussion. There have been several attempts by MLB teams to void player contracts, some of which were partially successful as they did not have to pay the full amount.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2013/7/26/4557390/should-mlb-contracts-be-more-easily-voided-yankees-brewers-braun-rodriguez-biogenesis

In the NHL where they had a similar clause regarding conditioning, Vladimir Krutovs 3 yr contract was voided after 1 yr by the Canucks for reporting to camp out of shape. Not sure what the settlement was but he never played in the NHL again.

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1069&context=sportslaw
pg 7-8 of pdf

Not really saying the Red Sox could win this, but the threat (which does not need to be public) could get his attention. Some people don't respond to reason and it takes the hammer

I just read the Beyond the Box Score link and I have no idea how anyone could possibly think that it's at all relevant to Sandoval's contract. The Sox would not win, they have nothing to threaten him with, and the whole idea is beyond nuts.

 

[Kooler Than Bert]

I see little actually attributing cause to his performance from weight outside of fat shaming. I saw one article talk about range and flexibility to get down for ground balls. Mostly the conversation has been assumptive.

 

[Rovin Romine]

I see little actually attributing cause to his performance from weight outside of fat shaming. I saw one article talk about range and flexibility to get down for ground balls. Mostly the conversation has been assumptive.

You could be right. He may just have a glandular condition of some kind. He could also have another completely separate glandular condition that has dropped his OPS+ for four years running.

 

[Kooler Than Bert]

You could be right. He may just have a glandular condition of some kind. He could also have another completely separate glandular condition that has dropped his OPS+ for four years running.

Doubling down on the fat shaming doesn't mitigate that you are discounting other potential causes entirely. Quite the opposite. Thanks for completely missing my point though.

 

[patinorange]

Nothing can be done about his fat. He was fat when they signed him, he is fat now. Let's just hope he is not a negative at third and can bounce back from the horror that was last season at the plate. The team really has no options other than cutting him and eating the salary. They are not doing that. Yet.

 

[PrometheusWakefield]

PR spin is PR spin but if this team is actually "not concerned" with Pablo Sandoval right now then we are insane.

The utter suckage that is Pablo Sandoval is the single biggest concern that this team should have in 2016, and for me, he has no leash at all and unless he looks massively better than he was in 2015 during Spring Training he should be benched as soon as opening day.

I'm much more confident in Brock Holt's ability to play an adequate third base than Sandoval - and I think Shaw or Swihart as well.

 

[lexrageorge]

Agree with this and I think part of the current perception problem is Farrell's stating that Panda lost "20-22" pounds. It's what we in the business call "managing expectations" and Farrell failed it. I think people would be a little less pissed if Farrell had said, "Look Panda is Panda. We know he's working out. He's in better shape. Is he going to look like Gabe Kapler? No. But he'll be ready. I'm sure of it."

It's not Farrell's job to worry about the media expectations around Panda's weight. He's got enough on his plate as it is.

 

[Van Everyman]

Isn't "Not concerned" a reference to his weight/conditioning as opposed to his performance?

Notwithstanding the unsightliness of watching an obese person play baseball or the comp of CC Sabathia breaking down four or five years older than Panda is now (at a completely different position), it seems to me that people are concluding without any real evidence that Panda's shitty 2015 was related to his conditioning – despite the fact that he has been fat his entire career. Isn't it just as likely that he had a hard time adjusting to pitchers in the American League?

Understand that we're all nervous and that he and Ramirez both significantly underperformed in 2015. But let's not collectively lose our minds over a single press interview and weigh in.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Isn't "Not concerned" a reference to his weight/conditioning as opposed to his performance?

Notwithstanding the unsightliness of watching an obese person play baseball or the comp of CC Sabathia breaking down four or five years older than Panda is now (at a completely different position), it seems to me that people are concluding without any real evidence that Panda's shitty 2015 was related to his conditioning – despite the fact that he has been fat his entire career. Isn't it just as likely that he had a hard time adjusting to pitchers in the American League?

Understand that we're all nervous and that he and Ramirez both significantly underperformed in 2015. But let's not collectively lose our minds over a single press interview and weigh in.

To the bolded...yes. And I'd also add that injury, unrelated to his conditioning, was likely also a factor.

 

[nighthob]

He's got enough on his plate as it is.

Are we discussing Farrell or Sandoval? (Sorry, someone had to pound that meatball, and I figured I should do it before Panda scarfed it down.)

 

[EdRalphRomero]

Isn't "Not concerned" a reference to his weight/conditioning as opposed to his performance?

Notwithstanding the unsightliness of watching an obese person play baseball or the comp of CC Sabathia breaking down four or five years older than Panda is now (at a completely different position), it seems to me that people are concluding without any real evidence that Panda's shitty 2015 was related to his conditioning – despite the fact that he has been fat his entire career. Isn't it just as likely that he had a hard time adjusting to pitchers in the American League?

Understand that we're all nervous and that he and Ramirez both significantly underperformed in 2015. But let's not collectively lose our minds over a single press interview and weigh in.

Sure, but there were 2 significant declines for Pablo last year. His hitting could have a lot of explanations, but he went from being a very good defensive third-baseman (and this was a significant component of the justification of his contract presumably) to a terrible defensive third baseman. And much of the defensive decline appeared to be attributable to being too fat to field.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

It's not Farrell's job to worry about the media expectations around Panda's weight. He's got enough on his plate as it is.

I'll disagree with this. It is Farrell's job to make sure his interactions with the media don't unintentionally create a media frenzy around a key player.

 

[YTF]

Given the hypothetical choice between:

A) Pablo trims down, but continues to show a consistent inability to control the strike zone
B) Pablo continues to struggle with his weight, but consitently swings at pitches in the strike zone and doesn't chase crap

I'd take B.

Of course the choice is hypothetical and I'm about 90% certain his strike zone recognition won't improve, so I have very little hope of seeing Panda be a good hitter. The point is, IMO the weight issue is not the big a factor in a possible improvement in Sandoval's performance.

Let me play Devil's Advocate for one moment flip the highlighted statement by asking what I think most here are concerned about. Is his weight a possible factor in the diminished skills that we saw last season and contributing factor in his ability to stay on the field last season? Is that in fact (pardon the pun) weighing him down? If you consider that a possibility, then his weight IS a considerable "factor in a possible improvement in Sandoval's performance".

 

[Rovin Romine]

Doubling down on the fat shaming doesn't mitigate that you are discounting other potential causes entirely. Quite the opposite. Thanks for completely missing my point though.

I think you went a little astray with mine as well. Sandoval is a baseball player. Sandoval is fat. Fat baseball players who are effective are rare. Fat baseball players who take the field and who are effective are rarer. (In fact, fat professional athletes who are effective are rare.) As Sandoval has aged, his performance has been drifting steadily downward for four years, to the point where his last campaign was fairly awful. Sandoval himself has not offered any specific reason for his decline, although he has been injured. However, recovery from his foot and knee injuries are probably not made any easier by him lugging a spare tire around. If you apply Occam's razor, there's a pretty clear dominant possibility as to why he's not doing well, and a clearer argument as to why his weight isn't helping him maximize his ability.

The burden's on you to advance another potential cause.

So long as he's effective, I personally don't care how svelte the man is.

 

[InsideTheParker]

Remarks by the Red Sox manager and general manager are not to be judged by the truthful/not truthful test, on the first few days of Spring Training. They have to work with this guy for a while, at least, and hope for the best. Embarrassing him in public is the last thing they should be doing. Behind the scenes, however, I hope that they are reminding him of the difficulties of playing the "hot corner" for the fittest of athletes and that their expectations are that they expect him to improve markedly over last year's performance.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

I'm sure Farrell et al are concerned about Pablo. I'm sure they would have preferred he come into camp having dropped a ton of weight and greatly improved his conditioning. But it doesn't really help anyone for them to trash him publically right now. The contract's guaranteed. They're not going to just cut him (at least until they see what he can do, and even then, its' highly unlikely).

But all isn't lost in mid-February. They have Holt and Shaw to turn to if Pablo's suckage carries into this season. And Marrero. Or they could lure Punto out of retirement.

Edit: Or what InsideTheParker said...

 

[joe dokes]

Remarks by the Red Sox manager and general manager are not to be judged by the truthful/not truthful test, on the first few days of Spring Training. They have to work with this guy for a while, at least, and hope for the best. Embarrassing him in public is the last thing they should be doing. Behind the scenes, however, I hope that they are reminding him of the difficulties of playing the "hot corner" for the fittest of athletes and that their expectations are that they expect him to improve markedly over last year's performance.

Valentine's public honesty about Youkilis sure worked out well.

 

[lexrageorge]

I'll disagree with this. It is Farrell's job to make sure his interactions with the media don't unintentionally create a media frenzy around a key player.

First, Farrell's remarks did not create the media frenzy. Sandoval created the frenzy on his own.

Second, Farrell's job is to manage the team on the field and in the clubhouse. Period. End of story. He gave what should have been a harmless answer to a question at a writer's dinner in January, an answer probably based on the information Farrell had at the time. We can't expect Farrell to be Belichick; for one, his bosses won't allow it.

 

[phenweigh]

Let me play Devil's Advocate for one moment flip the highlighted statement by asking what I think most here are concerned about. Is his weight a possible factor in the diminished skills that we saw last season and contributing factor in his ability to stay on the field last season? Is that in fact (pardon the pun) weighing him down? If you consider that a possibility, then his weight IS a considerable "factor in a possible improvement in Sandoval's performance".

I think his weight is a factor in his fielding, though not the only factor. I think his hitting decline is a much bigger concern than his fielding. Others have attempted to correlate his weight to his hitting ability over his career and haven't had much success. Maybe there is a correlation, but if exists I suspect it's weak. I think his weight is no factor whatsoever regarding his inability to lay off pitches well out of the strike zone, which I think is his biggest problem as a hitter.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

I'm going to remain agnostic about Sandoval and see what he does on the field, BUT...

I can't explain how stupid at least 3 very well-regarded General Managers were in 2014 and how smart the naysayers are today:

• I believe the idiot Giants organization had a 5 year/ $90M offer on the table and were ready to renegotiate higher
  
  
• We know the ridiculously bad Red Sox organization offered 5 years / $95M
  
  
• Every report said that the dimwit Preller of the Padres offered more than the Red Sox

I don't understand how such a "bad" signing could have been mimicked by 3 legitimate organizations. There were also some reports that the Blue Jays were interested. Now it's possible all these reports are bullshit but there were some pretty competent people kicking the Sandoval Spare Tire in 2014 and ready to pull the trigger.

 

[EvilEmpire]

You write that as if bad signings in baseball are a rare thing.

 

[moondog80]

I'm going to remain agnostic about Sandoval and see what he does on the field, BUT...

I can't explain how stupid at least 3 very well-regarded General Managers were in 2014 and how smart the naysayers are today:

• I believe the idiot Giants organization had a 5 year/ $90M offer on the table and were ready to renegotiate higher
  
  
• We know the ridiculously bad Red Sox organization offered 5 years / $95M
  
  
• Every report said that the dimwit Preller of the Padres offered more than the Red Sox

I don't understand how such a "bad" signing could have been mimicked by 3 legitimate organizations. There were also some reports that the Blue Jays were interested. Now it's possible all these reports are bullshit but there were some pretty competent people kicking the Sandoval Spare Tire in 2014 and ready to pull the trigger.

There just aren't that many ways to spend your money outside of FA, and there's a limited supply of them out there in a given year. And they're pretty much all bad bets. This is simplistic, but the choice is spend the money and maybe you get a good player, and if not, you're no worse off than if you just hasn't done it all.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Understand...he may be a terrible signing, but with a couple of other smart teams willing to grab him - I'm holding out hope that people who know more than me knew what they were looking at and I'm not willing to assume his trend is predictive...YET.

I will, however, be pissing on him in May.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

You write that as if bad signings in baseball are a rare thing.

Spoken like a true Yankee fan. Yet so very true.

Panda has only to bounce back +4.5 WAR next year, and then maintain that 3.5 WAR production level in each of the next three seasons following that, for the contract to break even at a going rate of about $7+MM/WAR.

So yeah...we can't call that a bad signing yet...right?

 

[Al Zarilla]

Pablo and his 2016 shape are already being guffawed about nationally. On the MLBN Hot Stove show today, Harold and Matt Vasgersian (I think it was) were taking the picture with his bare gut hanging out and doing photoshops to rotate him around, and black and whites on it to see if they could make him look less fat. They couldn't. KNBR, SF talk radio was also all over the situation this morning, but in a sort of nice way because it is California [emoji4]. Pablo better come out of the chute hitting and fielding significantly better than last year or I think the pressure of the media might eat him alive (no pun intended). Especially in Boston.

 

[Saints Rest]

Sure, but there were 2 significant declines for Pablo last year. His hitting could have a lot of explanations, but he went from being a very good defensive third-baseman (and this was a significant component of the justification of his contract presumably) to a terrible defensive third baseman. And much of the defensive decline appeared to be attributable to being too fat to field.

OTOH, Panda is not the first big ticket FA signing to come to the Red Sox and immediately have his hitting and fielding go in the shitter (cf. Carl Crawford; see also, Edgar Renteria, Julio Lugo). His weight may very well be the cause, but it's also possible that his shit-stain of a year may be attributable to a few other causes, some of which may be remediable, without his losing 30 pounds.

 

[Clears Cleaver]

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/02/22/giants-broadcaster-mike-krukow-says-red-sox-third-baseman-pablo-sandoval-has-an-eating-disorder/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I completely agree that we will run him out of town.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Pablo and his 2016 shape are already being guffawed about nationally. On the MLBN Hot Stove show today, Harold and Matt Vasgersian (I think it was) were taking the picture with his bare gut hanging out and doing photoshops to rotate him around, and black and whites on it to see if they could make him look less fat. They couldn't. KNBR, SF talk radio was also all over the situation this morning, but in a sort of nice way because it is California [emoji4]. Pablo better come out of the chute hitting and fielding significantly better than last year or I think the pressure of the media might eat him alive (no pun intended). Especially in Boston.

Sandoval did catch one break already, The extended screening in Fenway should make it harder for fans to toss marshmallows towards third base if he struggles early on.

 

[soxhop411]

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/02/22/giants-broadcaster-mike-krukow-says-red-sox-third-baseman-pablo-sandoval-has-an-eating-disorder/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I completely agree that we will run him out of town.

Pablo Sandoval showing up overweight to Red Sox camp didn’t surprise former big league pitcher and current Giants TV broadcaster Mike Krukow, who believes Sandoval has an eating disorder.

Speaking on San Francisco’s KNBR 680 on Monday, Krukow sounded disappointed over Sandoval’s arrival and the criticism that accompanied it.

“It’s unfortunate,” Krukow told the station, according to CSN Bay Area. “We love the guy. He was amazing in our uniform and amazing for our city. There’s no more charismatic guy that I’ve ever met than this guy. You can’t help but love this guy.

“He’s just one of those people that you want to be around. And it’s unfortunate. I mean, he has an eating disorder. It’s plain and simple. He can’t control himself.”

Krukow worries that Sandoval is eating himself out of baseball.

“The sad part about it, is it may cut his career short,” Krukow said. “And it’s a career that we believed could be an All-Star career. And he was rewarded with a nice chunk of change with Boston. And they gave him a mulligan last year, but those mulligans are gone. And they’re going to make his life miserable.”

From that article…. It says he has an eating disorder

 

[Al Zarilla]

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/02/22/giants-broadcaster-mike-krukow-says-red-sox-third-baseman-pablo-sandoval-has-an-eating-disorder/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I completely agree that we will run him out of town.

That sounds just like Krukow, a very sincere guy. Reading that, I can hear his voice. Love him and his partner Duane Kuiper.

 

[pokey_reese]

I think his weight is a factor in his fielding, though not the only factor. I think his hitting decline is a much bigger concern than his fielding. Others have attempted to correlate his weight to his hitting ability over his career and haven't had much success. Maybe there is a correlation, but if exists I suspect it's weak. I think his weight is no factor whatsoever regarding his inability to lay off pitches well out of the strike zone, which I think is his biggest problem as a hitter.

For what it's worth, his plate disciple and contact numbers in and out of the zone do not seem to have anything to do with his good v bad seasons, and last year those numbers were pretty much all in line with his career averages. However, his walk rate dropped, and he hit more GBs than ever before, and his BABIP dropped. Being in bad shape could potentially have some small effect on his ability to leg out a few grounders, but he also had his lowest 'hard hit' ball rates, FB rate, HR/FB rates, etc.. He was just a bad hitter last year, and it's tough to say why.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

For what it's worth, his plate disciple and contact numbers in and out of the zone do not seem to have anything to do with his good v bad seasons, and last year those numbers were pretty much all in line with his career averages. However, his walk rate dropped, and he hit more GBs than ever before, and his BABIP dropped. Being in bad shape could potentially have some small effect on his ability to leg out a few grounders, but he also had his lowest 'hard hit' ball rates, FB rate, HR/FB rates, etc.. He was just a bad hitter last year, and it's tough to say why.

I think adjustment to the new league and injuries are partly to blame. But he was also already declining as a hitter in San Francisco before even coming here. His OPSs leading up to signing the contract in Boston went .909, .789, .758, .739. Even if last year was a total anomaly - and I think there's a chance it was - I still have real trouble envisioning him OPSing much more than .720. Maybe he doesn't need to from a team standpoint, but I don't think it justifies the deal.

 

[Kooler Than Bert]

I think you went a little astray with mine as well. Sandoval is a baseball player. Sandoval is fat. Fat baseball players who are effective are rare. Fat baseball players who take the field and who are effective are rarer. (In fact, fat professional athletes who are effective are rare.) As Sandoval has aged, his performance has been drifting steadily downward for four years, to the point where his last campaign was fairly awful. Sandoval himself has not offered any specific reason for his decline, although he has been injured. However, recovery from his foot and knee injuries are probably not made any easier by him lugging a spare tire around. If you apply Occam's razor, there's a pretty clear dominant possibility as to why he's not doing well, and a clearer argument as to why his weight isn't helping him maximize his ability.

The burden's on you to advance another potential cause.

So long as he's effective, I personally don't care how svelte the man is.

No it's not. Your assertion. Your proof. I only need argue your construction and nothing more.

Occam's razor is a tool for the lazy and demonstrates nothing. It is convenient for the LCD type though. I hold to to the credo to make it as simple as possible but no more simple. You dumb it down more and its on you.

Gwynn, Puckett, Pendleton, Kruk, Vaughn and a whole heap of other players throughout history belie your certainty. If we were talking about the Celtics then sure but this is baseball we are talking about.

Panda's been fat since before he got here. You even mention specific injuries that he's had. Other people in this thread have discussed his plate discipline and try to broaden the discussion. You like the fat shaming.

Combine that with Shaugnessy and similar tripe articles designed to stir controversy with false certainty seem to be what your channeling and I think your argument goes from specious to gratuitous nonsense. I'll wait and see before I condemn him on the basis of cherry picked stills that make him look fat.

 

[pokey_reese]

I think adjustment to the new league and injuries are partly to blame. But he was also already declining as a hitter in San Francisco before even coming here. His OPSs leading up to signing the contract in Boston went .909, .789, .758, .739. Even if last year was a total anomaly - and I think there's a chance it was - I still have real trouble envisioning him OPSing much more than .720. Maybe he doesn't need to from a team standpoint, but I don't think it justifies the deal.

Oh, I totally agree. I have little hope that he is going to get much better, I just wanted to point out that his plate discipline wasn't the reason, presumably, that he was so bad last year in particular. It could have been new league, it could have been injuries, it could have been breaking his habit of switch hitting, it could have been extra weight, and probably, it was all of those things in some combination.

 

[pokey_reese]

No it's not. Your assertion. Your proof. I only need argue your construction and nothing more.

Occam's razor is a tool for the lazy and demonstrates nothing. It is convenient for the LCD type though. I hold to to the credo to make it as simple as possible but no more simple. You dumb it down more and its on you.

Gwynn, Puckett, Pendleton, Kruk, Vaughn and a whole heap of other players throughout history belie your certainty. If we were talking about the Celtics then sure but this is baseball we are talking about.

Panda's been fat since before he got here. You even mention specific injuries that he's had. Other people in this thread have discussed his plate discipline and try to broaden the discussion. You like the fat shaming.

Combine that with Shaugnessy and similar tripe articles designed to stir controversy with false certainty seem to be what your channeling and I think your argument goes from specious to gratuitous nonsense. I'll wait and see before I condemn him on the basis of cherry picked stills that make him look fat.

I'm guilty of being a guy who sees unconscious bias/racism everywhere, but I think you are taking this argument to some strawman-ish places. Identifying that he is fat (as you do in your post, just like others) is not in and of itself, 'fat shaming,' which implies an inappropriate aesthetic or moral inference that I'm not sure exists here. I will also say that the fact that you can so easily call to mind the few most obvious counter-factual examples actually weakens your point, specifically because they are so rare as to be memorable.

Look, maybe Panda can continue to be as heavy as he is AND an effective baseball player. But, the fact that he has been ineffective, and increasingly so for the last few years, means that it is absolutely on him to do whatever he can to improve, including getting into better shape. Take Ortiz, since we are using anecdotal evidence: he was a pretty round guy for years, but as he has gotten older, he has spent more time getting into better shape before spring training. It's not ageism to suggest that he had to do so, and he is the first to trumpet the fact that the effort he has put into getting healthier (and yes, trimmer) over the last few years has prolonged his effectiveness. I was able to coast by on SQL knowledge for a while, but suddenly I have to learn Mongo in order to be good at my job, and if I simply don't want to, it isn't lazy-shaming to suggest that I should, it's simply a choice on my part, albeit one that could cost me my job.

I already pointed out some arguments against the plate discipline thing, but I admit I don't know that Panda's weight has caused his decline. I DO know however, that failing/refusing to address one of the most obvious POSSIBLE reasons for his decline is on him, and he will get ample opportunity to back it up with results. If he comes back and rakes this year, then great, we won't have to keep talking about this. If he continues to struggle though, and never even tries being a professional athlete who is in good shape, then there will be no way to disprove this line of thinking. His weight is a variable that can be tested in terms of a hypothesis, it isn't some constant that we have to ignore in the discussion, even if it shouldn't be the whole discussion.

 

[Kooler Than Bert]

I'm guilty of being a guy who sees unconscious bias/racism everywhere, but I think you are taking this argument to some strawman-ish places. Identifying that he is fat (as you do in your post, just like others) is not in and of itself, 'fat shaming,' which implies an inappropriate aesthetic or moral inference that I'm not sure exists here. I will also say that the fact that you can so easily call to mind the few most obvious counter-factual examples actually weakens your point, specifically because they are so rare as to be memorable.

Look, maybe Panda can continue to be as heavy as he is AND an effective baseball player. But, the fact that he has been ineffective, and increasingly so for the last few years, means that it is absolutely on him to do whatever he can to improve, including getting into better shape. Take Ortiz, since we are using anecdotal evidence: he was a pretty round guy for years, but as he has gotten older, he has spent more time getting into better shape before spring training. It's not ageism to suggest that he had to do so, and he is the first to trumpet the fact that the effort he has put into getting healthier (and yes, trimmer) over the last few years has prolonged his effectiveness. I was able to coast by on SQL knowledge for a while, but suddenly I have to learn Mongo in order to be good at my job, and if I simply don't want to, it isn't lazy-shaming to suggest that I should, it's simply a choice on my part, albeit one that could cost me my job.

I already pointed out some arguments against the plate discipline thing, but I admit I don't know that Panda's weight has caused his decline. I DO know however, that failing/refusing to address one of the most obvious POSSIBLE reasons for his decline is on him, and he will get ample opportunity to back it up with results. If he comes back and rakes this year, then great, we won't have to keep talking about this. If he continues to struggle though, and never even tries being a professional athlete who is in good shape, then there will be no way to disprove this line of thinking. His weight is a variable that can be tested in terms of a hypothesis, it isn't some constant that we have to ignore in the discussion, even if it shouldn't be the whole discussion.

I'm not saying that his weight gain could not be cause. I am speaking more to the reductio ad absurdum that was going on. The discussion has picked up lately so I am content but prior to my commentary the thread was long on fat jokes and short on anything resembling analysis. You can claim that its a strawman but I see it as striking home due to the response I am getting.

As for the players I mentioned, that was just off the top of my head and the HoF types that played positions that required they move around. I left out the DH and pitcher types for example; I did no real serach of players over say 230 lbs. It's cliche how bad body baseball players can perform at a high level given the nature of the sport as opposed to say basketball or soccer frankly.

 

[phenweigh]

For what it's worth, his plate disciple and contact numbers in and out of the zone do not seem to have anything to do with his good v bad seasons, and last year those numbers were pretty much all in line with his career averages. However, his walk rate dropped, and he hit more GBs than ever before, and his BABIP dropped. Being in bad shape could potentially have some small effect on his ability to leg out a few grounders, but he also had his lowest 'hard hit' ball rates, FB rate, HR/FB rates, etc.. He was just a bad hitter last year, and it's tough to say why.

First, thanks for this.

Second, I think his lack of plate discipline is a perfectly reasonable answer as to why he was a bad hitter last year. The mystery to me is how the hell he could be a good hitter with such horrific plate discipline. What seems reasonable to me is that being a good hitter with the way he chases terrible pitches was not sustainable. My guess is that his hand-eye coordination has deteriorated from other-worldly to merely worldly. That doesn't seem fat related ... aging related seems like it could be factor along with new league adjustment.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I won't say anything except that I stand by my call that he doesn't make it to the end of the 2016 season with Boston. And yes, its likely going to hurt when they deal him away and have to pay a significant portion of his contract to consummate a deal.

In the meantime, can we please change this thread title to the "Life Of Pablo" or, at least "No More Parties in Puerto Cabello"?