Unless Dad has a plan for him, I would think he does.
Has to be Mayo: Kraft can't burn down Brady then Bill then crush the heir apparent?
Who is the next coach?
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Has to be Mayo: Kraft can't burn down Brady then Bill then crush the heir apparent?
You really didn’t know what he meant? New people from outside the organization, preferably with offensive side of the ball backgrounds.
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Yeah if Mayo doesn't get the HC job he's 100% gone, plenty of teams would make him offers as DC maybe even HC.And the biggest problem in that mess was easily identifiable. As were the surrounding ones. And they have the #3 pick in the draft. If the offense doesn't improve in a big way, the villagers will riot.
And I wonder if Bill's taking a big part of the core on the other side of the ball with him, which could lead to a mess of its own.
Thanks! Part of what I see as a problem is that Mayo has been a good soldier, and a token interview with Kraft resulting in Vrabel getting the job is not going to appease Mayo. Does Kraft want the optics of letting go of the GOAT and then shivving a member of the family who has been so loyal? With all the Flores stuff going on in the background (his case against the NFL, not talk of coming to NE)?
Make no mistake, the media, and rightfully so, will grab onto that like a starving pit bull.
Your logic checks out for sure, but man is it fraught with land mines.
John Schneider is EVP & GM, but Pete was also EVP of Football Operations as well as head coach and had final say in everything football.
Let's hope whomever they select as GM/coach aren't political types.
One of the hallmarks of the BB era was the ability and willingness to acquire the players they wanted vs consensus moves (as graded by local reporters etc). For a normal front office this is s a data point and can result in someone getting fired shortly thereafter, especially if a transaction is viewed as a bust. The Pats didn't really seem to have much of that dynamic during BBs term but its going to start right with the draft.
FWIW, I prefer our FO executives are empowered to go with their choice vs the safe one but we may be back to people making these decisions with one eye on job security again. Maybe its always been this way even for BB but they definitely didn't always make consensus moves.
The media driving the next regime more is definitely a risk.
One of the hallmarks of the BB era was the ability and willingness to acquire the players they wanted vs consensus moves (as graded by local reporters etc). For a normal front office this is s a data point and can result in someone getting fired shortly thereafter, especially if a transaction is viewed as a bust. The Pats didn't really seem to have much of that dynamic during BBs term but its going to start right with the draft.
FWIW, I prefer our FO executives are empowered to go with their choice vs the safe one but we may be back to people making these decisions with one eye on job security again. Maybe its always been this way even for BB but they definitely didn't always make consensus moves.
The media driving the next regime more is definitely a risk.
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That and Carroll as GM are the long odds propositions but this was a fan-grief driven exercise in composing a Patriot Way tribute band. It's a highly unworkable framework but it momentarily eased the sting of this chapter's thudding close.
And you make good points which I did not consider when I immediately said “Vrabel”. Passing over Mayo would definitely have poor optics. I can see them going either way. I think at the end of the day Kraft will want the most proven guy that can bring the team back to relevancy as quickly as possible. Will Kraft be willing to be patient as Mayo gets his feet wet?And the biggest problem in that mess was easily identifiable. As were the surrounding ones. And they have the #3 pick in the draft. If the offense doesn't improve in a big way, the villagers will riot.
And I wonder if Bill's taking a big part of the core on the other side of the ball with him, which could lead to a mess of its own.
Thanks! Part of what I see as a problem is that Mayo has been a good soldier, and a token interview with Kraft resulting in Vrabel getting the job is not going to appease Mayo. Does Kraft want the optics of letting go of the GOAT and then shivving a member of the family who has been so loyal? With all the Flores stuff going on in the background (his case against the NFL, not talk of coming to NE)?
Make no mistake, the media, and rightfully so, will grab onto that like a starving pit bull.
Your logic checks out for sure, but man is it fraught with land mines.
I like percentages. So I’d say it’s about 90 percent chance the next Pats HC will be Vrabel or Mayo. And I’d go 60/40 in a heads up battle between those two favoring Vrabel.
Why? It's not obvious to me that a GM helping to choose a coach is a better plan than a coach helping to choose a GM. The important thing to me is they see the game with the same eyes.
Good point. Intuitively, maybe even logically, we all assume that the hiring should be based on a top-down hierarchy. But its likely that the GM-NFL coach dynamic is a bit different.
In baseball & hockey, the GM oversees an organization that goes beyond the major league team. As such, maybe those GMs are also tone-setters in addition to being the grocery shoppers (recall "the Oriole way'; or Billy Beane's then-novel approaches). But in the NFL, it seems that the Head Coach is more of the tone-setter (or at least as much) than the GM, especially in terms of style of play and personal personnel attributes. I'm not sure where that balance ends up, but I dont think the "better get a GM first" ideal is quite as hard-and-fast in the NFL.
Also, the cynical side says that a GM who come in with a HC already in place has an automatic "he wasn't my guy" grace period if the team sucks.
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You definitely see this during NFL drafts, where the coach is front and center in many draft rooms, whereas sometimes they seem to be at the kiddie table or not even really visible in the other sports — with some notable exceptions.
If it's Mayo, it's going to be with the caveat that a GM will be taking over. If it's Vrabel, I can see a GM-type coming in but with Vrabel in full control of the operation.
I mean, he certainly can. If Vrabel was not available this is a much easier decision. But Vrabel is also part of the family (albeit not the coaching tree). I have no idea if Mayo and Vrabel (and Steve Belichick) could coexist, but that's a great start to a staff.
I agree that it being a collaborative/shared vision of the teams the ultimate goal. I just think it's probably easier and more likely to achieve that by hiring the GM/head of football operations first, and then letting that person find their kindred spirit to be HC. Not so much about hierarchy, as about a clear separation of responsibilities, and a clear shared vision.
Which, IMO, makes Mayo the superior candidate. Bill the coach was ten times better than Bill the GM. If he couldn't pull off both, I have no reason to assume Vrabel would be better at it.
Sorry for the mini-side track, but I just remembered how I first became familiar with Vrabel. It was a 7-6 playoff loss to the Steelers, and Vrabel was a rookie. His strip sack of Bledsoe sealed the deal, and obviously opened BB's eyes.
What a long, strange trip its been....
EDIT: I will say that BB kinda did pull it off for quite a while, though.... But I think that's not replicable.
What a long, strange trip its been....
I couldn't agree more. If there's one thing I'd really like to see it's a more reasonable distribution of power.
EDIT: I will say that BB kinda did pull it off for quite a while, though.... But I think that's not replicable.
If it's Mayo you just hope they hit on the QB and the OC and he's the Pats' version of Demeco Ryans. And then the OC leaves after a year and you're starting over again, like Demeco Ryans.
Totally agree actually that on paper it makes most sense for Vrabel as HC over Mayo and BoB or Josh as DC and OC.
Just saying Mayo may be operating under a different set of assumptions. He put himself on ice last year, explicitly, and that had to be wtih some kind of assumption (my assumption
.Now, if that doesn’t prove valid assumption, then you really are potentially burning some bridges here. It’s been suggested, but maybe AHC/DC to soften the blow
I think I would prefer the idea of Vrabel if we absolutely must have someone other than Bill. I think Vrabel is a good in game coach, and he likes the kind of football that I like (and I think BB did too). However, hiring Vrabel is like dropping a bomb. Kraft was pretty damn effusive about Mayo and signaled strongly he would be the next head coach. Given that, and the obvious fact that Mayo is a black man, how does it look if Kraft just tosses him aside without the promised chance to hire Vrabel? It also sounds - though I cannot tell how much is media spin to dig at bb - that the players love Mayo and doing him as perceived dirty could have some repercussions.
I also wonder if the Titans will fill tampering charges if the Pats hire Vrabel. Obviously, they are free to do so, but it was pretty clear Vrabel's red jacket trip to Boston blew him up there.
That being said, how is either of those guys a clear upgrade for Bill as coach? It just does not compute. This leads me back to the point of well if you are doing this who is going to run football ops and who will be picking the coach? Right now it seems like the owner wants to hire his own preferred coach and his own preferred GM. Will that even come close to working? I cannot believe after all this time Kraft (or his son) appears to be back to controlling the groceries.
I also wonder if the Titans will fill tampering charges if the Pats hire Vrabel. Obviously, they are free to do so, but it was pretty clear Vrabel's red jacket trip to Boston blew him up there.
That being said, how is either of those guys a clear upgrade for Bill as coach? It just does not compute. This leads me back to the point of well if you are doing this who is going to run football ops and who will be picking the coach? Right now it seems like the owner wants to hire his own preferred coach and his own preferred GM. Will that even come close to working? I cannot believe after all this time Kraft (or his son) appears to be back to controlling the groceries.
Hypothetically he might want to show that he can thrive without his dad, most of the top legacy kids had to get jobs on other staffs at some point (Shanahan, Ryan, etc.)
There should be a healthy tension between personnel and coaches (this guy can play! vs this doesn’t fit!). It’s similar to sales and marketing, where you work hand in glove but there is a clear handoff and pushback from both sides (this was a shit lead! vs. you didn’t manage the account correctly!)
It takes a third party to help break ties…that’s why I want a Head of Football over an HC and GM. I hate to learn anything from the Sox
but something in that direction seems like a healthy evolution.
He's also got a Defence here which did pretty well most of this season despite the Ws/Ls and could/should be even better next year, injuries permitting. No guarantees the next place Bill goes will be that set up on his side of the ball.
That said, I want Mullet gone
I think it would be shitty if they hire anybody but Mayo to the the HC. I think he can bring some new energy to the role, but also have the perspective to know what worked well under BB's regime.
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IIRC, didnt the Seahawks hire Carroll first, then create a list of GM candidates and Carroll signed off on Schneider?
I hope Reggie McKenzie gets a look as a GM/Director of Personnel. He had some good drafts with the Raiders, and seemed to be building something decent there when he got turfed by Gruden. He spent a long time in GB under Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson. I think a new voice/process would be good.
He said it on Boston Sports tonight last night (Felger/Holley NBCSB show), I don't think I added that to what I saw in the locked BB thread, but it was part of his doubling down that BB was gone, so he seems to be pretty dialed in here. I knew with Curran's delivery that it was over. Then I went into denial and to sleep.
I think you’ve said it, no one thinks that they’re going to be upgrade over Bill the coach.
In my case, I do think either of them will produce a better outcome overall because they are both very strong coaches (imho, this is debated vigorously elsewhere) but unlike Bill they’ll be willing to work collectively and collaboratively with other pros.
The math for me: Coach and Staff developer Mayo/Vrabel + GM X (trust the process) > Coach and Staff developer Bill + GM Bill.
My short thoughts on the immediate future is this and forgive me if others have already posted this. I think if it comes down to Vrabel, Mayo, or Flores I feel that each will do Ok as a coach (although it’s tough to replace BB). I have some concerns about Vrabel being able to get along with a GM, so ultimately I think I'd prefer Mayo or Flores.
My biggest concern is getting a GM who can get the talent evaluation ship fixed and fixed for this draft. We gotta nail this draft and FA market because this team just doesn’t have the talent (especially on offense) to do much better than they did this year without an infusion of young talent and well selected veteran talent. I dont have a lot of names in my head. I've always liked Pioli, but my knowledge of his performance isnt as deep as many others on SOSH.
My biggest concern is getting a GM who can get the talent evaluation ship fixed and fixed for this draft. We gotta nail this draft and FA market because this team just doesn’t have the talent (especially on offense) to do much better than they did this year without an infusion of young talent and well selected veteran talent. I dont have a lot of names in my head. I've always liked Pioli, but my knowledge of his performance isnt as deep as many others on SOSH.
Kind of--I mean, you can't argue with the results, but if I had the time and interest, I'd do some comparisons of the BB/Pioli era and the just BB era (acknowledging the difference in sample size) to see how much of it was his personnel management and how much of it was having a generational talent under center combined with BB's in-game skills.
The only thing that Curran has said recently in which I hope he is right. I don't believe that Mayo brings in any "Belichick baggage", especially as it's highly unlikely Mayo is the one running the draft and signing free agents. I also don't get the "defensive minded coach" argument; a good head coach can delegate that aspect to the offensive coordinator.
I agree with others that the bigger question mark is who is going to be Brad Stevens for the Pats.
It feels like Mayo at HC with Josh at OC makes a lot of sense. I don’t think Vrabel would need to take a DC job, although that would be the ideal scenario.
It feels like Mayo at HC with Josh at OC makes a lot of sense. I don’t think Vrabel would need to take a DC job, although that would be the ideal scenario.
I think my ideal coach situation is either:
1. Go outside for one of the young offense names.
2. Mayo with an outside OC (Kubiak, Robinson)
3. Mayo with a retread Pats OC (O'Brien, Josh)
1. Go outside for one of the young offense names.
2. Mayo with an outside OC (Kubiak, Robinson)
3. Mayo with a retread Pats OC (O'Brien, Josh)
I’m glad I’m not alone. This team needs a new direction, not less successful versions of the coach that is leaving.
For those that hate some of Belichick's recent drafts (understandable, to be fair), take a look at 1997-98.
To be fair, Kraft had only recently bought the team, Charley Armey had just left, and Kraft had his reasons for not wanting to turn the entire operation over to Parcells "long" term. And firing Grier was probably Kraft 2nd best move.
I think it is likely Josh ends up whereever Bill goes. He will be paid handsomely and I think Bill knows it will be extremely helpful for his revenge tour.
Mayo is less successful? By all accounts he is extremely thought of and just because he played for and coached for BB doesn't mean he is BB. As others have said, it will be key to find a strong OC and it is likely Mayo would likely give that individual the keys to the offense. I believe (as I have said) it will be important to give Football ops power to a strong, competent president (not just GM) who will be able to resist the inevidable meddling from ownership.
Yep because on the flip side, Reid is an offensive minded coach and KC’s defense is terrific. He just basically leaves it to his defensive coaches.
Mayo feels like more of a swing for the fences pick than Vrabel to me. I didn't like the idea of firing Bill and staying in house, but I can at least see an argument that Mayo is a blank slate and deserves a shot. So count me as team Mayo over Mike.
Yeah, I really just added that caveat to make it unnecessary for someone else to.
He certainly didn't have the Godfather role during the first leg of the dynasty.First leg of the dynasty. Man, am I fortunate to be able to type that.
Fuck, now the dust is kicking up again.
I remember reading way back that he was addicted to watching film when he was a player and had a reputation for living and breathing football.
He also does seem to connect well with modern players, which matters. And whatever he’s done in his role with the defense has clearly been a job well done.
Give him a shot and support him with a top-flight rookie QB, a talented OC, and a personable GM with a lot of experience to help bring the whole of the coaching staff and roster together.
I love Vrabel, but I don’t know - if a stand-up, loyal, hardworking guy like Mayo is confident he can succeed Belichick and do it well, I’m inclined to believe him. We would just have to remember to be patient and give him a solid three year window, minimum, to build out his vision.
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