This isn’t trueNot to downplay how good Scar was, but they did win a SB without him.
edit it might be? I had it in my head he wasn’t there for Seattle, but Wikipedia lists it?
This isn’t trueNot to downplay how good Scar was, but they did win a SB without him.
Oh that cement is just,None of the rest of them have to play for the 2023 New England Patriots.
Used to play this song in jazz band all the timeOh that cement is just,
it's there for the weight, dear
Was going to say the same, although they definitely couldn't block 72 that nightNot to downplay how good Scar was, but they did win a SB without him.
DeGuglielmo was the OL coach the year they beat the Seahawks. Got fired a year later after the OL melted down against Denver.This isn’t true
edit it might be? I had it in my head he wasn’t there for Seattle, but Wikipedia lists it?
The Pats won SB 49 with Gugliemo as the OL coach. Scar was gone that year.Scar is really it for me. He really had the special sauce to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Not that everyone on the OL was awful during the Brady years (in fact, many were quite good), but I think Scar could take a scrap heap guy or late round guy and make them at least competent/league average. The line fell apart when he retired the first time and when he came back the Pats started going to SBs again. That's not all on Scar (obviously), but he had a knack for making the unit as a whole successful with whatever pieces he had.
I also, for whatever reason, thought the Pats ran a lot of max protect stuff early in Brady's career. Obviously once Brady became Brady they didn't have to do that quite so much. And his receivers were better at getting open than the WR corps now.
Fair.The Pats won SB 49 with Gugliemo as the OL coach. Scar was gone that year.
That being said, I totally agree with your main point.Fair.
For whatever reason, Wikipedia credits him with that Super Bowl and that threw me off. Also, that vereen catch is amazing. He did the Steven Ridley td celebration because Ridley had just torn his aclThe Pats won SB 49 with Gugliemo as the OL coach. Scar was gone that year.
Sorry about that. I saw @BaseballJones comment first.It's like I'm not even here lmao.
Haha sorry about that. As soon as I saw his post I replied, not reading through the rest of the thread to see if anyone else already had.It's like I'm not even here lmao.
“Pick me! Pick me””It's like I'm not even here lmao.
Yeah, Scar was an amazing coach. Also, Brady, while not super fast or a threat to really run, always seemed to have pretty awesome pocket awareness and movement.Scar is really it for me. He really had the special sauce to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Not that everyone on the OL was awful during the Brady years (in fact, many were quite good), but I think Scar could take a scrap heap guy or late round guy and make them at least competent/league average. The line fell apart when he retired the first time and when he came back the Pats started going to SBs again. That's not all on Scar (obviously), but he had a knack for making the unit as a whole successful with whatever pieces he had.
I also, for whatever reason, thought the Pats ran a lot of max protect stuff early in Brady's career. Obviously once Brady became Brady they didn't have to do that quite so much. And his receivers were better at getting open than the WR corps now.
The point in playing someone other than Mac is to show you can still run a competent team. Mac gives you zero ability to run a consistent offense. One of those other QBs might. Zappe, not likely.Sorry if I wasn’t clear. My preference (rationally, not on game day) is we should lose. I don’t think Bill is willing to do that, it’s not that I don’t think he should just that I don’t think he will.
I also think, and this isn’t a hot take, that having an elite QB is the fastest way to become a perennially contending team. Maybe our disagreement lies in whether Zappe Grier or Cunningham could be that. I think they have a combined 0.0% chance of becoming a franchise QB, so I don’t see the purpose in running them out there hoping to win a few more games. I also think BB is trying to win games, so him not playing them tells me that they’re exactly as bad as I think they are
where did you see this story about practice?Totally agreed.
Just wanted to add that the pass you are describing above was EXACTLY the pick Mac threw in practice that made the defense irate and yell at him. Mac thinks he's Mahomes or Allen but is is definitely not anywhere near their class and needs to adjust his game to that fact. He's yet to do it and I haven't seen evidence of it changing. I also don't think too many players on the team respect him and play hard for him. The overall lack of urgency on the offensive side reflects that.
I don't think they win with Malik or Grier or Zappe either but what I would like to see is what the other skill players look like with a different QB just to see what changing part of the equation does. Perhaps the offense is worse but perhaps we see something/anything different from the offense because the backup QB isn't seeing ghosts since they haven't been pummeled like Mac has. Maybe just maybe they are willing to stand in the pocket more and we find out some of our receivers can make plays down field. I don't think any QB on the roster should be starting but it doesn't mean mixing things up won't generate a different outcome. When you are basically hoping to lose the next best outcome is figuring out if you have anyone on the offense worth a damn.Sorry if I wasn’t clear. My preference (rationally, not on game day) is we should lose. I don’t think Bill is willing to do that, it’s not that I don’t think he should just that I don’t think he will.
I also think, and this isn’t a hot take, that having an elite QB is the fastest way to become a perennially contending team. Maybe our disagreement lies in whether Zappe Grier or Cunningham could be that. I think they have a combined 0.0% chance of becoming a franchise QB, so I don’t see the purpose in running them out there hoping to win a few more games. I also think BB is trying to win games, so him not playing them tells me that they’re exactly as bad as I think they are
This makes sense and is an argument I’ve never heard before. We’ve seen Zappe and he’s awful so I never want to see him again, but I can buy that Grier and Cunningham could allow certain other players to showcase themselves in a different way.I don't think they win with Malik or Grier or Zappe either but what I would like to see is what the other skill players look like with a different QB just to see what changing part of the equation does. Perhaps the offense is worse but perhaps we see something/anything different from the offense because the backup QB isn't seeing ghosts since they haven't been pummeled like Mac has. Maybe just maybe they are willing to stand in the pocket more and we find out some of our receivers can make plays down field. I don't think any QB on the roster should be starting but it doesn't mean mixing things up won't generate a different outcome. When you are basically hoping to lose the next best outcome is figuring out if you have anyone on the offense worth a damn.
Almost all of those plays were run to the left. Brown and Mafi are good at moving people.I asked in a thread somewhere what the Patriots actually did differently:
View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1714050163013046317
And the OL was really good that year once they abandoned the Jordan Devey experiment and put Stork in at center with Wendell and Connolly at guard.The Pats won SB 49 with Gugliemo as the OL coach. Scar was gone that year.
A bunch of the beat writers have mentioned it in podcasts. I haven't seen it in print since likely no one wants to go on the record about it.where did you see this story about practice?
The bolded cannot be stressed enough. With everything else that we've come to expect from a BB coached team, discipline seems to have been the hall mark of his Patriots teams. IMO the lack of discipline only magnifies the other faults of any team, even more so in the case of a team like New England that has so little going in it's favor.1. Bill Belichick, because the Patriots football operation is an unmitigated disaster. He should not be back next year. The talent of the field is bad, the team discipline is bad, if this is the best he can do it is time for him to pack it in.
2. Mac Jones, who played decent in some parts of the game but ruined himself with a terrible interception.
3. Davante Parker, because Mac made one absolutely great clutch throw today - a deep ball from pinned deep in his own territory that landed right in Parker's hands - and he dropped it. If he makes the catch - the exact type of catch he is supposed to be good at - the Pats are in Raider terrory with a chance to get into FG range and win.
Check out the Patriots drafts of the last 3-4 years and stop when you see an offensive tackle. I think that we drafted one 7th rounder a couple of years ago, that's it.One of the ironic things is that BB is getting hammered for not spending draft capital to improve the offensive line when last year he spent the first round pick on Cole Strange, which was pretty much roasted by all the fans.
Now, inside line is not outside line - so one could quibble with guard vs tackle. It could be just bad injury luck, but so far the issue isn’t that BB is completely unwilling to spend on the offensive line he just picked the wrong player.
This is what concerns me more than anything about the coaching staff.The bolded cannot be stressed enough. With everything else that we've come to expect from a BB coached team, discipline seems to have been the hall mark of his Patriots teams. IMO the lack of discipline only magnifies the other faults of any team, even more so in the case of a team like New England that has so little going in it's favor.
Agreed and the constant turnover in the coaching staff compounds things on the offensive end of the equation.This is what concerns me more than anything about the coaching staff.
Before Brady I used to say to my kids while watching a game the Patriots ought to hire a dance coach or somebody to work with Bledsoe on his foot movement. Remember that he was called a statue later in his career. Then Brady came along with no more foot speed than Drew but he had just what you said and was not a liability at all in that, or any regard. With Mac, we're back to Bledsoe but without the arm (and a lot else).Yeah, Scar was an amazing coach. Also, Brady, while not super fast or a threat to really run, always seemed to have pretty awesome pocket awareness and movement.
4th round this year since they announced Sow as a tackle.Check out the Patriots drafts of the last 3-4 years and stop when you see an offensive tackle. I think that we drafted one 7th rounder a couple of years ago, that's it.
Teams will miss on guys of course, but they're not even trying.
They may have announced Sow as a tackle, but he's playing guard right next to Wendell Kim. Steuber/Sherman/Herron 7th/6th/6th. That's not investment, it's a shotgun approach with one pellet.4th round this year since they announced Sow as a tackle.
They took a tackle every year since 2017.
2023- Sow in the 4th
2022- Steuber in the 7th
2021- Sherman in the 6th
2020- Herron in the 6th
2019- Cajuste in the 3rd
2018- Wynn in the 1st
2017- Garcia in the 3rd and McDermott in the 6th.
What they haven't done is taken a tackle in the 1st 2 rounds, but looking at the drafts... not a lot of tackles on the board at their picks that you'd say were bad misses, not even that many that wouldn't have been considered reaches. Tackles tend to fall into 2 categories in the draft... potential studs who go early 1st, and questionmarks who get scattered throughout the rest of the draft.
The Patriots take tackles just fine, in fact as many have pointed out, it is one of the positions Bill traditionally is very willing to take in the 1st, we just haven't been situated right for a few years.
It' is weird, because press are only there for warmups during the season (e.g. get an attendance report) . So to have beat writers seeing this seems... illogical.A bunch of the beat writers have mentioned it in podcasts. I haven't seen it in print since likely no one wants to go on the record about it.
Perfect.They may have announced Sow as a tackle, but he's playing guard right next to Wendell Kim.
Seems pretty logical to me that some player on defense would throw this out to friendly guys on the beat as their offensive woes continue.It' is weird, because press are only there for warmups during the season (e.g. get an attendance report) . So to have beat writers seeing this seems... illogical.
I mean... you only have so many picks, especially in the premium rounds, which is what it seems like you want.They may have announced Sow as a tackle, but he's playing guard right next to Wendell Kim. Steuber/Sherman/Herron 7th/6th/6th. That's not investment, it's a shotgun approach with one pellet.
I was only looking back a few years. Agreed that there was a time when Bill spent higher picks on tackles.
But we have no evidence of this.. just I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard that Mac was messing aroundSeems pretty logical to me that some player on defense would throw this out to friendly guys on the beat as their offensive woes continue.
No, we have reports from beat writers that this is what happened. Breer is one guy who flat out stated defensive players were calling out Mac's mistakes in practice in frustration. I wouldn't take that as "a friend heard it from a friend who heard X". If you tell me X happened, I'm going to assume it came from someone who witnessed X.But we have no evidence of this.. just I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard that Mac was messing around
Multiple things:4th round this year since they announced Sow as a tackle.
They took a tackle every year since 2017.
2023- Sow in the 4th
2022- Steuber in the 7th
2021- Sherman in the 6th
2020- Herron in the 6th
2019- Cajuste in the 3rd
2018- Wynn in the 1st
2017- Garcia in the 3rd and McDermott in the 6th.
What they haven't done is taken a tackle in the 1st 2 rounds, but looking at the drafts... not a lot of tackles on the board at their picks that you'd say were bad misses, not even that many that wouldn't have been considered reaches. Tackles tend to fall into 2 categories in the draft... potential studs who go early 1st, and questionmarks who get scattered throughout the rest of the draft.
The Patriots take tackles just fine, in fact as many have pointed out, it is one of the positions Bill traditionally is very willing to take in the 1st, we just haven't been situated right for a few years.
Im fine with their approach to T this past off-season and if Gonzalez didn’t fall into their laps, perhaps things play out totally differently at the position. But going back to 2021, Cajuste was never healthy and when he did get opportunities he stunk, Herron was traded and Wynn couldn’t stay healthy.I mean... you only have so many picks, especially in the premium rounds, which is what it seems like you want.
People complain that they don't invest in tackle, or WR, or.... etc. etc. You can only fill so many holes in the draft, and it's not like you have your choice of equal caliber talent at every position every pick.
The last 4 years they only have 8 early round picks (1st or 2nd), of those they only had 2 in the top 15. They went QB/CB with those 2, they went OL and traded out with the other 2 1sts (neither had a clear tackle option), for the 2nds... 3 defensive players and a WR. I don't really see any of those spots where there was a clear OT option that would have made that much sense.
I think there isn't much of a case for much complaint about the OT approach in the draft. They kept signing Trent Brown (who is good).. they had Wynn who was a 1st round pick, and until last year was pretty good (when not injured).
Up through 2021, the OT position looked good. You had Brown and Wynn as starters, you had a midround pick you liked in Cajuste, Herron who you developed and some deep depth development guys.
Things went sideways on them, but even going into this year... they signed a bunch of vets who were fringe starters... you don't usually draft fringe starters as rookies outside of very early picks.
If there is a better criticism of Bill at tackle it's that he didn't spend on one of the top guys this offseason (though even then, most of the top guys are struggling).
Even then, I don't think investment at tackle is a major problem, what has been has been injuries and evaluation. They like McDermott, he played pretty well last year... lost for the year. They brought in Reiff and Anderson to compete, both guys were servicable swing starters last year.... both tanked. They traded for a guy... he stinks.
They've invested in T fine... but just like many other places they've spent.... they've missed.
I feel like the Pats often draft these hybrid OL types (Wynn is the perfect example) for flexibility - ability to kick out to Tackle potentially, but floor is a guard. But history shows, IMO, that if you're a guy who comes into the draft and your calling card is that you can play OG and OT, you are a guard. You are not good enough to be a no-shit tackle in the league. You might be able to do so in a pinch, but your NFL position is guard. Is this your read on it too? I'm just trying to check my expectations whenever they pick these guys going forward b/c I can't remember the last successful tackle to enter the league with that label.2) Minor nitpick with Sherman who was drafted as an IOL. Sow also had the athleticism to play OT and did his freshman year but that’s still developmental and aspirational at best.
Rashawn Slater is probably the most high profile of the recent guys. Some saw Darnell Wright as an OG ideally but he is doing well so far at RT. I thought both guys were OTs coming out but for Slater a lot of folks were split.I feel like the Pats often draft these hybrid OL types (Wynn is the perfect example) for flexibility - ability to kick out to Tackle potentially, but floor is a guard. But history shows, IMO, that if you're a guy who comes into the draft and your calling card is that you can play OG and OT, you are a guard. You are not good enough to be a no-shit tackle in the league. You might be able to do so in a pinch, but your NFL position is guard. Is this your read on it too? I'm just trying to check my expectations whenever they pick these guys going forward b/c I can't remember the last successful tackle to enter the league with that label.
FTFY. Mac isn't one-tenth the leader and football player that Drew Bledsoe was.With Mac, we're back to Bledsoe but without the arm (anda loteverything else).
I agree it feels like position flexibility along the line has been a driver. It’s been true especially of mid rounders, but even the Strange conversation was how it was ok he maybe wasn’t properly strong enough for guard b/c he was probably going to be an athletic center.I feel like the Pats often draft these hybrid OL types (Wynn is the perfect example) for flexibility - ability to kick out to Tackle potentially, but floor is a guard. But history shows, IMO, that if you're a guy who comes into the draft and your calling card is that you can play OG and OT, you are a guard. You are not good enough to be a no-shit tackle in the league. You might be able to do so in a pinch, but your NFL position is guard. Is this your read on it too? I'm just trying to check my expectations whenever they pick these guys going forward b/c I can't remember the last successful tackle to enter the league with that label.
It sure feels like there are guys that can play tackle and guys that can’t play tackle. If you’re set at tackle, having depth that can cover more than one position is great. When you don’t, just drafting a bunch of big dudes and thinking your coach will ‘get the best 5 guys’ out there seems risky. It kinda makes sense in a Scar/Brady world (where they still invested at LT!) but hasn’t worked here for a while.Rashawn Slater is probably the most high profile of the recent guys. Some saw Darnell Wright as an OG ideally but he is doing well so far at RT. I thought both guys were OTs coming out but for Slater a lot of folks were split.
One glaring similarity is that both Mac and Drew developed happy feet/fear of getting hit in the pocket which negatively affected their play.FTFY. Mac isn't one-tenth the leader and football player that Drew Bledsoe was.
Drew's 3rd year in the NFL looks a lot like Mac's 3rd year, if not worse. That was coming off a 2nd season in which he led the NFL with 27 picks and 30 total turnovers.One glaring similarity is that both Mac and Drew developed happy feet/fear of getting hit in the pocket which negatively affected their play.
Difference is, of course, that Drew only did so after years and years of accomplishments and pounding and actually having success. While Mac, uh, hasn't.