I pretended it was actually my decision, and I honestly don't have the heart to fire the guy, and I'm still not completely sure that he's washed up yet.
Poll: What do you WANT to see happen with BB?
- Thread starter DJnVa
- Start date
This may not be the right thread for it, but…
I’ve never been the biggest Mike Tomlin fan. Seems more like a cheerleader than anything. But somehow, some way, the guy never finishes with a losing record. And that’s in a division with Burrow and the Ravens. He deserves more credit that I’ve ever given him.
I say this here because, the Steelers also moved on from their HOF QB and seem to be in a far better position than the Pats. Why? Coaching? GMing? Both?
No one will ever put Tomlin and BB in the same breath as coaches. So even with a significant downgrade from BB in the HC category, I think there is enough to be gained on the personnel side to be able to improve the team.
I’ve never been the biggest Mike Tomlin fan. Seems more like a cheerleader than anything. But somehow, some way, the guy never finishes with a losing record. And that’s in a division with Burrow and the Ravens. He deserves more credit that I’ve ever given him.
I say this here because, the Steelers also moved on from their HOF QB and seem to be in a far better position than the Pats. Why? Coaching? GMing? Both?
No one will ever put Tomlin and BB in the same breath as coaches. So even with a significant downgrade from BB in the HC category, I think there is enough to be gained on the personnel side to be able to improve the team.
Tomlin is an excellent coach and, particularly, manager. There's no denying that. His teams play connected and are generally fundamentally sound. The effort is always there. That said, they are stuck in the middle like many struggling teams. There's no way they'll win anything meaningful with Pickett, and Tomlin squeezing out extra wins keeps them from picking at the top of the draft. He probably needs one complete stinker of a year to get them back into real contention.
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Pittsburgh historically has had outstanding talent evaluation from their FO. Just finding and pumping in talent year after year. That’s not to knock Tomlin, he’s obviously an excellent coach, who has been able to manage and maximize that talent well. More just a compliment about how well they draft and develop talent.
I voted #1. The GOAT has provided me with 20 years of joy watching the Patriots epic success. As stated above, you’re not finding a better coach and odds are also very high not finding a better GM that would make up for the loss of the coach.
BB stays until he says he’s done. Maybe he decides he’s not able to do what’s best for the team and steps down. I hope he passes Shula as Pats coach and don’t care if it takes 5 years.
BB stays until he says he’s done. Maybe he decides he’s not able to do what’s best for the team and steps down. I hope he passes Shula as Pats coach and don’t care if it takes 5 years.
Voted 3. Thanks for an amazing run the greatest run in NFL history Bill, but I trust Kraft more than you at this point and if he's ready for Mayo: so am I.
Yes, Pittsburgh has a deserved reputation as a well run organization. But, obligatory reminder that the team's last playoff win was 2016, after which they were curb-stomped by Belichick's Patriots in the AFCCG. In the 6 years since, they've missed the playoffs 3 times.
Yes agreed with your first take: in an ideal world I would have chose the second option, but that is just not realistic or something Belichick would want to accept in my opinion. So I went with #3, because I think even if starting a new season you need a long interim period for evaluation of coaching and GM prospects outside your organization. I feel like the next coach has a short lifespan in the position, so it is easier just to keep some continuity before really ripping the band-aid prior to the following season and not asking an outsider to directly succeed BB. And if someone like Mayo unexpectedly does more than BB did with this roster then great, and maybe he is the right person for the next era of Patriots football.
#1. Easy decision for me to the point where after just lurking about for the past decade or so, I decided to actually log in to vote and comment.
He has a track record of over 20 years success in an ever-changing league. Plus, I find him extremely entertaining.
Stabilize the OL through talent and (hopefully) health and determine whether you have a functional QB presently. They may already have a read on the the latter, so we'll see what happens. If, as many seem to think, he needed Brady to win, well, it's on him to find the next Brady or enough of a percentage of Brady to be consistently competitive.
He has a track record of over 20 years success in an ever-changing league. Plus, I find him extremely entertaining.
Stabilize the OL through talent and (hopefully) health and determine whether you have a functional QB presently. They may already have a read on the the latter, so we'll see what happens. If, as many seem to think, he needed Brady to win, well, it's on him to find the next Brady or enough of a percentage of Brady to be consistently competitive.
So this is a take I've seen and I think is wild.... what has Bob Kraft literally ever done other than hire Bill and stay out of his way to make you trust him?
Fact - Parcells and Pete Carroll.
Opinion - I believe he extended Brady's run here a couple years, and thus a couple Lombardis, when Bill was ready to move on to...this.
Interesting question though... Pete Carroll ended up good somewhere else... here he took over a SB team and got worse every year until he got fired.
Now maybe the Brady thing is true, maybe not (though I don't think we would have moved to this if it's true since we had a QB lined up if you mean when they traded Jimmy).
The
Tomlin is def an above average coach, but I don't think that above average. He never seems to elevate his talent to the next level. It you look at their playoff appearances since their last SB apperence it is a bunch of one and dones or wildcard wins. You can't even blame the Pats for standing in the way except for 2017.
The Steelers have won 10 games once in the last 5 seasons. Not sure they are a great example of anything other than the impact of losing a good to great QB.
Tomlin is def an above average coach, but I don't think that above average. He never seems to elevate his talent to the next level. It you look at their playoff appearances since their last SB apperence it is a bunch of one and dones or wildcard wins. You can't even blame the Pats for standing in the way except for 2017.
I believe Kraft has said that he learned a lot from the Parcells and Carroll experiences. And I suspect that’s precisely why he so desperately wanted Bill *and* gave him full control.
I’m old enough to remember Bobby Grier submarining Carroll at every opportunity. The franchise resembled the Sullivan era in those years.
I also recall a lot of smoke around Kraft making sure Brady won the bake off with Jimmy G. I agree that it seemed like Bill was obsessed with the “year too early” thing with Tom. Maybe that was all fiction, but it never appeared that way to me.
All that being said, I don’t think Bob or Jonathan have any real compelling vision for the franchise post-Bill. Seems like at the moment it’s Mayo and…? And 2 years ago it was McDaniels. Not the best horse to bet on.
Again, I’m fine with Bill coming back. And I really hope they tell him to just go get someone(s) who can do an off-season rebuild of the offense. If Groh ain’t that guy then fire him and find someone else.
If we still stink next year then it’ll be time to move on, and there should be no regrets about doing so.
I mean, we're at once in the last 4 seasons for the Pats, without much hope for 2024, and 2023 is shaping up to be much worse than anything the Steelers have experienced... like, ever. Or at least since 2003.
My point in mentioning the Steelers is that for all the consternation about losing BB the HC, the Steelers have a guy who (at least on appearance) is much more of a manager than a tactician, and yet they keep out churning out winning seasons, even after losing their HOF QB. If we build the right personnel department, the wins will follow.
The post was about the Steelers, not the Pats. You held them up as an example of rebuilding and they have been meh for 5 years.
The rest is about Tomlin who I have never really been impressed with.
Ben Johnson is the Lions OC. Frank Smith is the Dolphins. Both will likely get looks this offseason.
No, see my edit. I'm holding them up as an example of a franchise that still pumps out winning teams despite A) having more of a manager at HC and B) also losing the HOF QB.
Are the Steelers actually better than the Patritots post-Brady? They're very similar situations, teams that were good that now have good defenses and terrible offenses and hang around the fringes of the playoffs depending on schedule and injury luck. The Steelers have had worse offense than the Patriots over that stretch, this is the first year the Patriots offense has been worse, and there is a chance the recent tweaks by BOB get the Patriots past the Steelers in offense again by year end.
To be clear, I am not trying to argue the Steelers have been better than the Patriots over the last 4 years. I am making the point to the people who say that we need to keep BB the HC that there are multiple ways to be competitive. I'd like to roll the dice on a better personnel department knowing full well it will likely lead to a less tactically / schematically talented HC.
I think there is certainly reason for hope in 24 as long as they commit to a rebuild and significant investment in the offense. Need to rebuild the line and WR corp and obviously address QB. The good news is this is a great draft for X WRs and there are some intriguing FA options out there such as Gabe Davis and DPJ who should both be available as UFAs as I can't see BUF or DET expending the capital required given their upcoming cap issues. Their are obv bigger names like Higgins/Pittman Jr. but I expect them to be tagged or signed to mega-deals. Building the OL might prove to be the most challenging part. The good news is the D needs little investment and ST really don't need any given the draft capital they spent in 23.
YMMV. I have very, very little faith in the combination of A) their willingness to invest in the offense, B) their ability to get those decisions correct, and C) their ability to put it all together into a competent offense in 2024.
Cant' disagree with you there. The track record certainly isn't good recently. There is a path to success in 24 but they will need to thread the needle for sure. At least we aren't the Panthers I guess.
The Pats will have like $90 million in cap space for 2024. What makes you say that there isn't much hope for 2024?
Their offense completely sucks and they haven't shown any ability to resemble competence in the last couple years?
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree they have a better personnel department (and I actually think TOmlin is a pretty good coach)
This is very similar draft performance over recent years:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/draft.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/draft.htm
Well it's be mostly a new offense that's how you get to $90m in cap space.
Also weird to complain about the Patriots offense and hold up the Steelers, one of the few offenses consistently worse over recent years.
The Steelers have a better record than the Pats over the last few years. Or whatever, call it even, that the teams have had the same performance over the last couple years. If their GM'ing (i.e., talent) is equal, that implies their coaching is equal. In which case I supposed Tomlin deserves a ton of credit. If BB the HC gets credit for elevating the performance, I guess Tomlin does too.
I think he should yes. They also have been buyoued by some luck, a weaker division etc. But I think Tomlin is an underrated coach, he is a motivator first yes, but their defenses are legit.
Not sure you can play the weaker division card when they've had the Bengals and Ravens. Their entire division is over .500 this year. Their last place team went 7-10 last year. 8-9 was the worst record in 2021. You have to go back to 2020, pre-Burrow, to find a bad team.
They have 3 more wins over the last 3 years and all of that comes from this season.
The Steelers and Pats are the spiderman meme, except the Pats have a better chance of getting out of this death cycle of mediocrity than the Steelers do as they have more cap room.and should have a higher pick assuming current form holds.
You yourself say you've never been impressed with Tomlin. So if they're the same team, and if BB > Tomlin as HC, does that not imply that the Steelers are better at gathering talent / roster building?
Or alternately, if the talent is the same, then that implies that the coaching is the same, and if you don't think much of Tomlin, then I don't see how you could think much of BB either.
Well if I’m in any way consistent, should Kraft think it’s the right choice to keep him then so will I. He found real talents to lead his franchise over and over and agree he’s learned along the way.
Ultimately I think about how many posts there have been about whether Kraft should intervene here or there over the last couple years (coaching to offense to drafting to trade deadline to FA). That’s not how a boss ideally operates, and I don’t think it’s Krafts preference either. Once you can’t essentially “fire and forget“ the top of your leadership then you need new top of your leadership. fwiw I can’t wait for them to go on a run so I can eat $&@#. I remember 1-15.
Side note: to run my franchise I want peak BB but if I need to lead an average team to the playoffs to save my life, I think I’m taking peak Bill Parcells.
So we can sign the next Juju or Parker or Jonnu or Agholor? Awesome.
I'm not comparing the team's offenses or in any way holding up the Steelers. I am saying that the Pats and Steelers have been more or less the same over the last few years, right? I think we can all agree on that.
So there are 3 paths that lead to that:
1) The teams have equal talent and coaching
2) The Steelers have better talent but worse coaching
3) The Steelers have worse talent but better coaching
If you believe in #1, fair, but that doesn't paint the most flattering picture of BB the coach given what we seem to know about Tomlin as a HC. If BB is only on Tomlin's level as a HC, what would be the hesitation to move on?
If you believe in #2, then we need to find a way to improve the talent. Since BB is the guy choosing the talent, we would need to replace that. Which is why a bunch of people are voting #2. But it seems super unlikely that this would be possible.
If you believe in #3, then why would we want to hang on to our HC who we all think is a better HC than a GM?
Or.....
They play different opponents and have different injury and results luck. It's been covered a bunch, but PIT is 5-3 and every win was a 1 score game, every loss was by multiple scores, they have been thoroughly outgained by opponents. Last year wasn't as bad, but again the outperformed pythag.
The samples on NFL seasons are incredibly small, such that comparing the W-L record of teams who rarely play each other and have dissimilar schedules isn't going to tell you much. I'd also say that until this year both teams were around .500, that tells me they were pretty decent teams since neither has a franchise QB.
The problem with your argument is it's based on a wild assumption that you can quantify things that are difficult to quantify, and then secondly that you can quantify them by inferrence of other things.
It doesn't work that way, but particularly you can't boil it down to.... Team performance= Talent + HC quality.... it's a far more complex formula than that..
Team performance = Talent + roster balance + HC ability + OC quality + Offensive playcalling + DC quality + Defensive playcalling + opponent strength + opponent injuries + your injuries + key position injury balance + pure dumb luck + etc. etc.
Treating an incredibly complex structure and process as if it is simple doesn't produce anything of value in analysis.
I don't disagree with any of this.
I do think we can gain something by comparing the two teams, which is to say that BB the coach may be offsetting BB the GM, and we're getting a very similar output as a franchise with a vastly different structure. I'm no longer willing to hold on to BB the GM just because we have BB the coach. He's not elevating things enough for me. I see the penalties, the dumb mistakes, the special teams errors, etc. And maybe it's purely an injury thing, I dunno. They used to overcome that sort of thing a little better. And maybe it's just a talent thing - worse players are more likely to commit penalties. But again that circles back to... BB is picking the players. They're not very good, they haven't been very good since the QB left. Look, if they want to give him one more chance to turn this ship around, fine, he's earned it. But I won't be heartbroken if this it for him either. I'm ready to move on, but I understand if they want to give him one more round, whatever that looks like.
Sure have. I always thought that Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Gronk, Edelman, Amendola, and many others were pretty good players.
Edelman and Gronk don't apply in a discussion about 2024 cap space and FA spending since BB drafted them in 2009 and 2010 respectively, close to 15 years ago. Moss and Welker were acquired in 2007, Amendola was signed 2013, ancient history all around.
This is what I was replying to:
So yeah, historically he has done a pretty freakin' good job signing offensive players.
But if you really mean recently, then I can't argue with that. Many busts for sure, but you can't say he hasn't tried, albeit with limited cap space.
The thing here is nearly all his offensive stars in the past were bargains. I don't think there is a market inefficiency in Welker/Edelman-type guys anymore, it's rare that a superstar like Moss will get disgruntled and then motivated again (and that probably only happened because of Brady) and they kind of hit on all the downside of a guy who falls due to character concerns in Hernandez so I'm not sure they would pick such a guy again (though I guess they overlooked this with the white supremacist tattoo guy). You could take fliers on guys with injuries like Gronk when you had a SB-caliber team and QB but now isn't really the time to take risks with a second round pick.
SMU_Sox has pointed out that teams are really good at scouting and keeping playmaking skill position guys and you really need to have a high pick or spend a lot of money and picks to get those guys these days, and BB hasn't shown the ability or desire to do that.
Even really recently, Hunter Henry has been good, Bourne was a very good signing who had a down year due to off-field/personal issues supposedly, if we had a better QB I think people wouldn't be that displeased with Parker either (though they'd complain about health). To me Bill has really had one clear area he's struggled.... identifying which college WRs will translate in top 50 or so picks.
Edit- and if you can't do that, it means that unless you are willing to trade a ton you aren't going to get an elite WR, you're looking at #2 and #3 guys, which only works if you have an elite QB.
Also, Antonio Brown flamed out due to off field issues and seems to be a huge piece of shit, but it feels like bad luck that the Pats only got one game out of him while he contributed to a Tampa Super Bowl run, averaging almost 70 yds per game played for them over two seasons (but only 15 games total).
I want BB to stay and guide the Pats to another Super Bowl championship, as he gets the all-time wins record as a coach.
BB has a tremendous job of resigning good players for good prices and letting over-priced guys go over the years. Why is that never part of the equation measuring Bill the GM?
Edit: I will admit he hasn't signed / drafted too much talent worth retaining in the last few years. Th e one regret we may have had a t first is letting Chandler Jones go but that worked itself out
Edit: I will admit he hasn't signed / drafted too much talent worth retaining in the last few years. Th e one regret we may have had a t first is letting Chandler Jones go but that worked itself out
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