Still, there was a lot more ball movement last year when Kyrie was here. The problem is not Kyrie.
Well, I'm convinced, especially from all the evidence posted. See you all in 2023, folks!Might as well get used to the losing because Kyrie will likely be a Celtic for the next 5 1/2 years. He's an immense talent who is not a good fit for this roster. It could very well turn out to be Oklahoma City redux.
From watching the last few games, now that Theis has actually made it into real minutes, I'd say the difference is defense. Theis is routinely getting beat on the ground, has had little impact around the rim, doesn't rebound or box out, and has been a bit of a foul machine - 4 in 12 minutes vs Utah, 3 in 15 last night. I'll agree he's done better at setting up dunks and layups on offense, but we all know that Brad plays you or sits you primarily based on your focus on D, and with Baynes' newfound shooting skills their offense might be a wash anyway. Baynes has mobility limits that Theis doesn't have, but one thing he's consistent about is focus and effort on D.Why the love for Baynes over Thies in a major role? What does Baynes do markedly better than Thies other than guard other big burly dudes (a role he will obviously maintain)? I’d rather have Thies out there on defensive switches and his athleticism has been a positive around the basket offensively. He had his best game of the season offensively right before he got hurt where they made a long run with him in there mixing it up.
This take is so hot it burned my eyes reading it. Try better.And Tatum is never going to be the Tatum we saw last year with Kyrie and Hayward here-- and let's not even get into the adverse effects on Jalen Brown and Terry Rozier.
Might as well get used to the losing because Kyrie will likely be a Celtic for the next 5 1/2 years. He's an immense talent who is not a good fit for this roster. It could very well turn out to be Oklahoma City redux.
Sign me up but no real need to include Morris (unless you need his salary which I haven't looked at) as the Wizards would be in rebuild mode. We don't need "elite" depth as those players typically aren't the best fit for second unit roles. It will be fairly simple to add a piece or two who are better fits after Dec 15th if we did a Beal deal.Ok, I'm going to be that guy. Anyone here seriously interested in a Bradley Beal trade? Come January, when Smart can be traded, I would make a Jaylen/Smart/Morris/lesser pick for Beal trade in a cocaine heartbeat. If we're going to go bombs away from 3, we might as well line up the best shooters we can. Depth would obviously take a hit but you only need 8-9 guys in the playoffs anyways.
Baynes / Williams
Horford / Theis
Tatum / Semi
Beal / Hayward
Kyrie / Rozier
Now, who's with me?!
*crickets*
I figure they might like Morris to flip but I agree that losing him would be really tough. However, I like your construct much better and it seems to be a reasonable deal but I think a pick would be needed to complete it, which is obviously something we could easily offer. Smart gives them a solid PG if they are somehow able to deal Wall's monstrous contract. If not, he is a solid backup and easily tradeable. Jaylen would be the "prize" of the deal and gives them a young cost-controlled wing to replace Beal and, more importantly, would help to change a toxic culture. Yabu and Semi are mostly filler but they are cheap guys who still have at least a little upside.Beal for Smart/Brown/Yabusele/Ojeleye works. Morris is too important to this team, and if WAS is blowing it up, they wouldn't want one year of Morris anyway.
This deal makes sense for WAS, and would make the Celtics really, really good. The problem (as noted in another thread by HRB I think) is that Danny won't do anything until AD is off the market in one way or another.Beal for Smart/Brown/Yabusele/Ojeleye works. Morris is too important to this team, and if WAS is blowing it up, they wouldn't want one year of Morris anyway.
AD isn't going to be available any time soon so I would hope that Ainge doesn't pass on a guy like Beal, if he really is attainable, to chase that white whale. However, I don't think these deals would be mutually-exclusive. Theoretically, you could trade Jaylen/Smart/filler for Beal and then Tatum/Horford or Hayward/picks for AD.This deal makes sense for WAS, and would make the Celtics really, really good. The problem (as noted in another thread by HRB I think) is that Danny won't do anything until AD is off the market in one way or another.
I don't hate flipping Brown into Beal, since Beal has 3 more years of team control, and also because the team is going to have to develop whomever it gets with all the picks this year. It's a pretty good time to consolidate some players for one guy.
Historically speaking, it is much better to do it this way anyways. Say you have all of Brown/Tatum/Smart/picks in the cupboard when AD is available—guess what the asking price will be?AD isn't going to be available any time soon so I would hope that Ainge doesn't pass on a guy like Beal, if he really is attainable, to chase that white whale. However, I don't think these deals would be mutually-exclusive. Theoretically, you could trade Jaylen/Smart/filler for Beal and then Tatum/Horford or Hayward/picks for AD.
I guess Ainge hasn't put a team around Kyrie that's good enough to win. So let's dump Brown (two bad games in a row!), Smart (can't shoot) and a couple of other guys and try again with Beal. Better?This take is so hot it burned my eyes reading it. Try better.
I don't get the Beal fit. Sure doesn't fix the problem of too many shooters, since all you're subtracting are Smart (who doesn't shoot much) and Brown, and you're replacing with them with a high volume guy. And now you have an undersized backcourt with two below average defensive players starting.Sign me up but no real need to include Morris (unless you need his salary which I haven't looked at) as the Wizards would be in rebuild mode. We don't need "elite" depth as those players typically aren't the best fit for second unit roles. It will be fairly simple to add a piece or two who are better fits after Dec 15th if we did a Beal deal.
Edit: what the moops said.
If the Celtics are going to shoot as many 3’s as they are, you might as well tailor your personnel to fit the scheme and acquiring Beal would give the team an elite shooter from downtown. Defense would certainly take a hit but I would much rather have Beal playing off of Kyrie’s penetration than Jaylen. Beal would also provide more spacing, which could potentially enable guys like Tatum to be more aggressive in attacking the rim.I don't get the Beal fit. Sure doesn't fix the problem of too many shooters, since all you're subtracting are Smart (who doesn't shoot much) and Brown, and you're replacing with them with a high volume guy. And now you have an undersized backcourt with two below average defensive players starting.
You realize they were winning with Kyrie last year right?I guess Ainge hasn't put a team around Kyrie that's good enough to win. So let's dump Brown (two bad games in a row!), Smart (can't shoot) and a couple of other guys and try again with Beal. Better?
Yep, 20 in a row at one point. They also did pretty well without him later in the season.You realize they were winning with Kyrie last year right?
You’re taking things off the table here.
There's a less than zero chance that a team will trade for him let alone the Celtics.Does Kyrie have fond memories of his old backcourt mate JR Smith? Could be a homeless man's Beal, and could probably be had for next to nothing, allowing you to use the Rozier chip elsewhere,
It could very well turn out to be Oklahoma City redux.
It's such a great comp it needed to be said twice!I do see parallels with OKC.
Haha, is he that bad these days? I guess I thought of him as a better-conditioned Swaggy P — a pain in the ass, but potentially moderately useful on a team in need of a jolt of perimeter shooting off the bench from time to time (which I think describes the Cs). But I'll admit I haven't watched him that closely over the last couple years; and I wouldn't be surprised if the headaches now outweighed any mild basketball positives.There's a less than zero chance that a team will trade for him let alone the Celtics.
+1. I thought it was such a bazaar comp that Big John must be joking.It's such a great comp it needed to be said twice!
Other than the fact that Kyrie is nothing like Westbrook (much closer to Curry or Lillard, fwiw), Stevens is nothing like Donovan, the teams are constructed and play very differently, etc...
I mean, yeah, they're both groups of tall human beings; and they're both NBA basketball teams with championship aspirations who haven't reached them yet, and may need a move or coaching tweak or two get there (which is I assume is the central point you're concern-trolling here). But you could say the same about every team in the NBA who isn't (1) totally hopeless; or (2) the Warriors.
And of course, you could have said the same about the Warriors in 2014-15, or about the Rockets last year before they came thisclose to ending the Warriors' hegemony. Etc.
What are you advocating here, again? That the Celtics dump Kyrie, give up their immediate chase for a title, and start back at square one? Because of a stretch of 17 games in which the ball movement has been sub-optimal?
Serious question - what bad teams have defeated the Celtics? And you are firm in your view that this is the finished product after less than 20 games?I think the Celtics are stuck with Kyrie. With his impending free agency and his stated preference for remaining in Boston, Ainge would be lucky to get 50 cents on the dollar. You couldn't even get Beal straight up for him.
What irks me is folks who make excuse after excuse for the team's bad performance. It's the new rules, or Stevens' rotations, or Hayward's injury or bad performances from the classic whipping boys (Smart) or the new ones (Jaylen Brown). The fact is that this is now Kyrie's team, and the buck stops with him. If they reel off 20 in a row again, he'll get the credit. But when they are 9-8 and losing to bad teams, he gets the blame. It isn't the rest of the team because they proved that they could win without him.
Orlando is bad.Serious question - what bad teams have defeated the Celtics? And you are firm in your view that this is the finished product after less than 20 games?
I guess we have to agree on what bad is but imho, none of the teams the Celtics have lost to could be characterized as 'bad". For my definition, the league's bad teams are the Cavs, Suns, Knicks, Hawks and Bulls. And "almost" losing to a team doesn't constitute a loss - it counts as a win in the standings regardless of the score. Each of these teams, save maybe Cleveland, is capable of giving any team, including the Warriors, a tough game.Orlando is bad.
Denver started hot, but they are have one win and six losses since they beat us.
Utah is under .500
The Hornets are .500.
While agree that the Celtics issues are personnel fit related you are way off in your assessment of the Hornets. They have the 3rd best Point Diff in the EC, 8th in the league. Of their 8 losses, 4 have come by 2 points or less, one by 4-points and another by 9 in OT. They are far from a "bad team."Well, if it's the finished product we're really screwed. Has anyone seen significant improvement in the quality of their play since the preseason? I haven't. There have been some good individual performances, but as a team they have been unfocused and sloppy. So let's have some product development.
As for losses to bad teams, Orlando and Charlotte are bad teams whose decent records up to this point don't obscure that fact. They nearly lost to the Knicks as well.
HRB shared data in the post above that completely contradicts your description of the Hornets as a "bad" team. What is your criteria exactly in defining them as such? You haven't even cited their losses to Cleveland and the Bulls but, again, those teams are going to steal games from other teams early on including elite squads - there are a number of instances where this happens each and every NBA season.The Hornets are a bad team with a point guard on a tear. The loss to Charlotte was a direct result of Kyrie missing all of his shots in the last two minutes, and Kemba making his. Of course, Hayward missing every shot he took after the first one went in didn't help either. Semi Ojeleye can do that for considerably less money.
The Hornets won 4 of their games with Kemba scoring 18, 19, 20, and 24 points. They are 3-4 in games he's gone for 30+. It's isn't like he's singlehandedly carrying to wins.......actually it's quite the opposite. It is more to do with the Hornets being a deep and well balanced team who is 7th overall in OffRat and 12th in DefRat.Well, look at the personnel. After Kemba-- leading the league in scoring at the moment-- what do they have? Batum, Lamb, an over-the-hill Tony Parker, Marvin Williams (who has been a journeyman in the league since the stone age), and Willy Hernangomez, who in fairness destroys the Celtics every time they play against him. Frank the tank hardly gets off the bench these days.
Am I supposed to conclude this is a good team?
Good teams are, more often than not, top-heavy with talent. If you are arguing that by excluding some of that that talent, the team wouldn't be as good, I doubt anyone would disagree. That said, I don't know how you define bad so its hard for me to answer whether Charlotte is "good" or not.Well, look at the personnel. After Kemba-- leading the league in scoring at the moment-- what do they have? Batum, Lamb, an over-the-hill Tony Parker, Marvin Williams (who has been a journeyman in the league since the stone age), and Willy Hernangomez, who in fairness destroys the Celtics every time they play against him. Frank the tank hardly gets off the bench these days.
Am I supposed to conclude this is a good team?
The Celtics lost on the road to Charlotte. Kemba Walker had an amazing game during an amazing stretch. Stuff happens.Any NBA team can compete on any given night, even the Celtics.
Was anyone picking Charlotte to make the playoffs this year? Maybe some folks had them on the cusp, but that's about it. Good teams don't lose at home to teams like that. The Celtics are not a good team right now, and instead of blaming the role players and the rookies, let's put the blame where it belongs.
I've seen a Big John before, but that was in the bowels of Foxboro...Why do people even respond to Big John? His takes are by far the worst.
CHA was going to make the playoffs simply because they have a roster that is going to try. Although assuming CLE, ATL, NYK, and CHI are not going to make the playoffs, and 'Zards look to be imploding and I'm not following MIA closely enough to know what is going on down there, you are running out teams that won't make the playoffs.Was anyone picking Charlotte to make the playoffs this year?
Yeah why should we ever hold a PG accountable for checking his counterpart at the PG position. Like when Isaiah was here, if Kyrie cannot matchup with the opponents PG you are placing the rest of your defense at an immense disadvantage having to cover for him. Kyrie's energy on switches, particularly in the 4th quarter, were borderline embarrassing. He didn't even attempt to show and defend the 3-point shot on more than one occasion.The Celtics lost on the road to Charlotte. Kemba Walker had an amazing game during an amazing stretch. Stuff happens.
And, if you think Kyrie is where the blame "belongs", it needs to be pointed out that Kyrie scored 27 points, dished 11 assists and was a +6 in his 34 minutes on the court. He did have a really bad night shooting the 3 (1-8), which makes his stat line all the more proof that Kyrie is not where the problem resides. Shutting down Walker wasn't his job, nor would it normally be.
Tatum has slid back a bit since then, but I think people need to calm down about trades and blame and trying to figure out from the television out who isn't "playing hard enough." Its just not that easy to instantly re-integrate two top-flight players into a team that did really well without them. They'll be fine. The players, coach and management are all really good.End of last season there was no Irving, no Hayward, and a not-quite otherworldly Tatum.
There are only two players who look totally unaffected by the new dynamic. Tatum, who is better than last year. And Morris, who is the exact same guy (more often than not for the better, but occasionally not).
Game 19 is the day after Thanksgiving. Game 33 is Christmas. I think that will be the stretch where they reach cruising altitude. Until then, I expect 10-8 or 9-9.
Yes, this is what I'm referring to by placing the team in a precarious position as quick guards have always been the worst matchup for Smart but since Kyrie can't/won't compete in defending Kyrie it forced Brad to weaken our defense at multiple spots.I feel like Smart was on Kemba for most of the fourth, not Kyrie. He was chasing him around and getting torched.
We all know he's been drinkin' since the river took Emmylou.Why do people even respond to Big John? His takes are by far the worst.