FIBA World Cup 2023

InstaFace

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The dude has never been to Italy. Nor has his father. His great great grandfather moved to Seattle from Italy. He should in no way be playing for Italy.
He "should be playing for Italy" only in the sense that the USA only kinda needs him (he may or may not be on an A-team for the Olympics), whereas he'd make a huge difference for Italy, who pretty clearly only had one competitive player out there yesterday (Fontecchio). Italy might be a Banchero away from really making some noise on the global scene. So it'd be good for the international game if he were playing for Italy, he'd be their star. Xander and I talked about this on page 1 of this thread.

You only get one naturalized player on the roster for a given tournament, per FIBA rules. So if the other options Italy is considering are Donte DiVincenzo, Alex Caruso, Ryan Arcidiacono, and maybe Reggie Jackson (if he hasn't renounced), I have to say I'd pick Banchero first on that list every day of the week. Actually Jackson was born in Italy so he has either been a citizen since birth (and wouldn't take the naturalized slot), or can't get naturalized under Italian law, so either way scratch him as an option.

But in general I just wish the talent pool were spread around a bit more to make more fans in more countries excited about their prospects. Like, yeah, the USA can now field Joel Embiid if healthy, but wouldn't it be better if he were promoting the game in Cameroon and wearing their jersey? He's an American only because he was able to come here and have a career, if that's the standard then we could probably pick almost any NBA player we wanted because they'll all be eligible to naturalize (even if Doncic, Giannis, Jokic etc never would turn their backs on their country of birth). So I get where people are coming from about "it's kinda a shame Banchero picked the US", if your goal is just around the global depth of the game of basketball.
 

the moops

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But in general I just wish the talent pool were spread around a bit more to make more fans in more countries excited about their prospects. Like, yeah, the USA can now field Joel Embiid if healthy, but wouldn't it be better if he were promoting the game in Cameroon and wearing their jersey? He's an American only because he was able to come here and have a career, if that's the standard then we could probably pick almost any NBA player we wanted because they'll all be eligible to naturalize (even if Doncic, Giannis, Jokic etc never would turn their backs on their country of birth). So I get where people are coming from about "it's kinda a shame Banchero picked the US", if your goal is just around the global depth of the game of basketball.
Embiid was born in Cameroon and lived there until he was 16. That is way different than some third generation American playing for Italy.

I get the bigger point, and I agree. I just don't think Paolo is the best example
 

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I get the bigger point, and I agree. I just don't think Paolo is the best example
And that's where I'm at too, in Banchero's specific example. He feels 100% American, and only explored Italy in case he wasn't quite good enough to play for the USA. He was preparing to naturalize, may have even gone through with it. But then the USA did call, and brought him into the #2 competition prestige-wise, and so the decision was made for him. He's not of two minds about it, feeling drawn by both, the way a bunch of dual-nationals are (we see that far more often in soccer, and in our case particularly for Mexican-Americans who grew up watching El Tri on the TV and cheering for them).

Slightly further along the spectrum from Banchero might be Jordan Clarkson. He was born and raised and has only lived in the US, but his mom was Filipina-American, his grandmother came from the Philippines, so he was able to get citizenship (there is some doubt over whether he was a natural-born Filipino, or whether he was only eligible for the "naturalized" slot). They brought him over to the Philippines, introduced him around the team in 2015, basically sold him on the project, and he committed (and has been their star since first taking the court for them in 2018). His parents split up when they were young and he was raised by his dad, so he's not all that different from Banchero in that respect, just that the Philippines sold him on things when he was 23, after he was an established NBA player but it was pretty clear that he wasn't making a USA depth chart at guard. Banchero was 20 when he had to make this decision.

Carmelo Anthony could've played for Puerto Rico or a half-dozen other countries given his father's diverse ancestry. Adebayo was eligible for Nigeria (and probably could've gotten them qualified for this tournament). JaVale McGee had no Filipino ancestry but after visiting in 2012, asked them if he could play for them (it's something of a wild story). Kemba Walker's father is from Antigua and his mother from the US Virgin Islands, probably not much competition for his services, but still. The Lopez twins' father is Cuban. Donovan Mitchell's mother is Panamanian. There are a lot of NBA players who could play for another country if they wanted to, if the NBA were slightly more accommodating (they're not bad, but not ideal), and if there were more opportunities to compete meaningfully with a good roster. The Philippines and Puerto Rico and Nigeria are clearly teams that could use the boost, Cuba and Panama more marginal, but if the goal is to grow the game and make it more available around the world, there are lots of NBA players who could make a difference that way.
 

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Paolo is an example of how it can go off the rails, since a ton of Americans will qualify for a half-dozen or more countries if we go by great-grandparents. My son would qualify for at least seven in addition to the USA, and we could make a case for a handful more based on his ancestry results.

But at the end of the day, who cares really?
 

Tony C

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I doubt many care and I don't much, but Banchero (by reports -- may well have been exaggerated) was roundly booed by Italian fans as, I guess, some sort of traitor. I think their caring is just silly and does point to the absurdist whimsy of letting guys with only the most mythical of connections compete for a different country.
 

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FIBA World Cup all-time Medal Table:

70463

That's right, other than the Big 3 in the Americas (edit: and Chile, per a correction below), the only non-European team to medal in the event has been the Philippines' bronze in 1954. The history of the tournament is a little wild and very politically-influenced. Then-Marquette player Doc Rivers took a would-be buzzer beater in the 1982 Final that would've beaten the Soviet Union, but it missed.

Canada will be a new entry on the list if they can avoid losing the next two (and Latvia would've been if they'd hit that buzzer-beater). Germany has a chance to better their 2002 bronze (behind tournament MVP Dirk Nowitzki). Serbia finished runner-up in 2014, and even if they feel like they're the rightful successors to the powerhouse Yugoslavia teams of the Cold War (and after: their last two titles, as "FR Yugoslavia", were in 1998 and 2002), I'm sure they hunger for a trophy in their own right.

I expect USA to beat Germany comfortably, if not "easily". Our loss to Lithuania was really serendipity, really helped our draw in the knockouts. But Canada-Serbia will be an absolute dogfight. I'm sure Reggie is excited.
 
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reggiecleveland

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I doubt many care and I don't much, but Banchero (by reports -- may well have been exaggerated) was roundly booed by Italian fans as, I guess, some sort of traitor. I think their caring is just silly and does point to the absurdist whimsy of letting guys with only the most mythical of connections compete for a different country.
Username does not check out
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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FIBA World Cup all-time Medal Table:

View attachment 70463

That's right, other than the Big 3 in the Americas, the only non-European team to medal in the event has been the Philippines' bronze in 1954. The history of the tournament is a little wild and very politically-influenced. Then-Marquette player Doc Rivers took a would-be buzzer beater in the 1982 Final that would've beaten the Soviet Union, but it missed.

Canada will be a new entry on the list if they can avoid losing the next two (and Latvia would've been if they'd hit that buzzer-beater). .
Am I misunderstanding or should you have mentioned Chile?
 

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Am I misunderstanding or should you have mentioned Chile?
nope you're right, my oversight. Good on Chile for bronzes in 2 of the first 3 editions of the tournament (including the one they hosted in 1958; the first 5 tournaments were all hosted in South America, though sometimes only as a fallback after another host withdrew).
 

InstaFace

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Canada defeats Slovenia. Luka gets his 2nd T with 6 minutes left. By FIBA rule he should be suspended next game. Brooks was ejected for Canada, so he may be out for the Semi too.
Here are the two ejections. For all of FIBA refs' restraint when it comes to personal fouls in the flow of play, these seem like remarkably soft DQs. With 7 and 6 1/2 minutes left, respectively. There was just no need, no risk of "losing control of the game". Brooks' act of trash talk wouldn't even have raised an eyebrow in college, nevermind the NBA.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s-ImUwkK54
 

PedroKsBambino

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Those are both joke calls, regardless of FIBA.

The guy on the bench asking for a T on Brooks should have gotten the same penalty Doncic did---and that's precisely why it's a joke to call guys for stuff like these two plays only when the camera is on them, you are going to miss a TON of similar stuff off-ball. It's ridiculous and arbitrary. And I say that hating how much the NBA lets go and wishing there'd be more policing of the antics---but the level FIBA is trying to do it is more problematic in the other direction
 

Smokey Joe

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nope you're right, my oversight. Good on Chile for bronzes in 2 of the first 3 editions of the tournament (including the one they hosted in 1958; the first 5 tournaments were all hosted in South America, though sometimes only as a fallback after another host withdrew).
Ah… Brazil? Argentina?
 

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It seems like a given that if the US sent their A team they'd crush everyone, I'm wondering how the US A team would do against a world team. Here's potentially the US ideal top 12, ignoring injury and age:

Curry
Tatum
Lebron
Durant
Davis

Booker
Bam
JJJ
Lillard
Kawhi
Butler
Mitchell

Some of these could be swapped out, but I think this is reasonably balanced. 2-3 point guards (plus Lebron), 3 legit centers, plenty of shooting and strong defensive players. It's a bit of a cop out to have Booker on the bench instead of deciding which forward (Tatum/Lebron/Durant) to sit, but given Tatum's speed and the pure size of the World team, I'm ok with this team starting 3 big wings.

Luka
SGA
Siakam
Giannis
Jokic

Embiid
Murray
Kyrie
Markkanen
Gobert
Wiggins
Anunoby

Perimeter defense and outside shooting might be a bit shaky and I'm not sure how well Luka will fit surrounded by actual good players (I think he needs the ball in his hands to be effective, which doesn't feel like the case with most of the key players on the US team) but man, this is a skilled, giant roster.
 

reggiecleveland

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Here are the two ejections. For all of FIBA refs' restraint when it comes to personal fouls in the flow of play, these seem like remarkably soft DQs. With 7 and 6 1/2 minutes left, respectively. There was just no need, no risk of "losing control of the game". Brooks' act of trash talk wouldn't even have raised an eyebrow in college, nevermind the NBA.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s-ImUwkK54
I agree but in the context of the game they make a little more sense. Bith teams were warned with around 8 minutes left. Sloivienia took some hard fouls as Canada was pulling away. Brooks has p;layued really well, but has made some boneheaded fouls. Luka was crying all game. I really don't like what has happened to hoops. The contant crying, flopping, pl;aying for contact not through contact is a major problem.
 

lovegtm

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It seems like a given that if the US sent their A team they'd crush everyone, I'm wondering how the US A team would do against a world team. Here's potentially the US ideal top 12, ignoring injury and age:

Curry
Tatum
Lebron
Durant
Davis

Booker
Bam
JJJ
Lillard
Kawhi
Butler
Mitchell

Some of these could be swapped out, but I think this is reasonably balanced. 2-3 point guards (plus Lebron), 3 legit centers, plenty of shooting and strong defensive players. It's a bit of a cop out to have Booker on the bench instead of deciding which forward (Tatum/Lebron/Durant) to sit, but given Tatum's speed and the pure size of the World team, I'm ok with this team starting 3 big wings.

Luka
SGA
Siakam
Giannis
Jokic

Embiid
Murray
Kyrie
Markkanen
Gobert
Wiggins
Anunoby

Perimeter defense and outside shooting might be a bit shaky and I'm not sure how well Luka will fit surrounded by actual good players (I think he needs the ball in his hands to be effective, which doesn't feel like the case with most of the key players on the US team) but man, this is a skilled, giant roster.
Jokic and Giannis are the two best players in the world right now, and they fit great next to each other. Embiid is top-5, but he overlaps with Jokic. At least you'd have ridiculous depth when Jokic sits.

Then you get to Luka, Shai, Murray......the world team has a ton of elite ball-dominant players, but as you note, you only need so many of those guys.

The biggest weakness I see is at the wings, but OG, Wiggins, Markkannen can probably get you through, and Giannis would be playing the big wing on this team.

On the US side, it's Curry + endless superstar wings and AD at center. In the end, I probably take that, but that's just because Steph is a total force of nature. Without him, I'd take world.
 

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Lithuania up on Slovenia in their 5th place semi late in the first half. Doncic is playing, which means I assume his second-T ejection was either overturned, or does not automatically result in a suspension. Which would give some hope to Brooks.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Lithuania up on Slovenia in their 5th place semi late in the first half. Doncic is playing, which means I assume his second-T ejection was either overturned, or does not automatically result in a suspension. Which would give some hope to Brooks.
What is the rule for a suspension? Doncic and Brooks incidents were not the same. Brooks recorded a "disqualifying foul" for unsportsmanlike conduct and taunting while Doncic received his second "technical foul" of the game which sent him to the locker room.
 

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I hadn't realized until just now that Jeff Van Gundy went from "NBA TV commentator" to "Assistant coach for Team USA" and has been on the sideline for all our games. It's like I have face blindness or something, I'm sure you guys all noticed him, somehow I didn't. Spoelstra yes, JVG no.
 

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Although the current game even with the crying and moaning is way better than the 90s DET/NYK style of turning every game into a wrestling match.
Oh I agree. The game is great. But the crying, flopping, and not playing through contact is all ass. Every time someone like Embiid, Harden, or Trae flings their arms in the general direction of the basket with zero attempt to actually shoot the ball, just so they can get to the line, I die a little inside. Anything that discourages that is a good evolution.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Oh I agree. The game is great. But the crying, flopping, and not playing through contact is all ass. Every time someone like Embiid, Harden, or Trae flings their arms in the general direction of the basket with zero attempt to actually shoot the ball, just so they can get to the line, I die a little inside. Anything that discourages that is a good evolution.
I understand what you're saying but a lot of that is because the league has tried to take the overt physicality out of the game and both the offense and defenders are playing up to the line and frankly both sides are trying to goad the other side to cross it.

The NBA could cut down on some of the complaining but we also don't want the players to be automatons like the NFL.

I don't have any answers. Maybe the NBA should set up a whole new category for flopping/ref arguing so that any one who does a lot of it gets penalized. I don't know. I just don't the game to turn into a cage wrestling match again.
 

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I understand what you're saying but a lot of that is because the league has tried to take the overt physicality out of the game and both the offense and defenders are playing up to the line and frankly both sides are trying to goad the other side to cross it.
We're seeing a viable solution to this playing out in front of our eyes every time we watch a FIBA game. They are allowed to be far more physical than in the NBA without a call, but things that have to be called, for the game to be a sporting contest, are still reliably and (mostly) consistently called. So it's more physical because the line is set at a higher bar, but not so physical that it's out of control.

The NBA could cut down on some of the complaining but we also don't want the players to be automatons like the NFL.

I don't have any answers. Maybe the NBA should set up a whole new category for flopping/ref arguing so that any one who does a lot of it gets penalized. I don't know. I just don't the game to turn into a cage wrestling match again.
Just like in soccer, I'm in favor of hockey-style sin bin usage. OK, you whined demonstratively. It's not a technical foul (one foul shot, and if you get another you're ejected), but it's 3 minutes of game time (6?) during which you can't re-enter the game. STFU and show some respect for the game, but we're also not going to decisively tilt this particular game as a result of you needing to be less of a whiner. It's possible to escalate things to the point of a Tech, just like how a personal foul can escalate into an altercation requiring a Tech, but the refs just need some tool that's shy of a T to keep people in line.
 

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I understand what you're saying but a lot of that is because the league has tried to take the overt physicality out of the game and both the offense and defenders are playing up to the line and frankly both sides are trying to goad the other side to cross it.

The NBA could cut down on some of the complaining but we also don't want the players to be automatons like the NFL.

I don't have any answers. Maybe the NBA should set up a whole new category for flopping/ref arguing so that any one who does a lot of it gets penalized. I don't know. I just don't the game to turn into a cage wrestling match again.
Yeah I hear you. I don't want that either.

I'd like to see more of what we have seen in the last couple of years. More latitude/fewer fouls on the rule of verticality stuff. No automatic shooting foul on swipe-throughs. Not awarding FT on guys kicking out their feet or faking a landing area violation by falling unnecessarily. That stuff all helped. It was way worse a few years ago.

I'd be open to more ideas on how to get more "play on" when a guy is throwing his arms at another guy's arms and not really attempting a shot whatsoever. I'm not trying to take away FT when an offensive player gains advantage and gets a guy leaning the wrong way and initiates contact. That's basketball. Those guys deserve the FTA. It's the obvious cases of a guy who didn't even bother creating anything. Basically about half of Embiid's FTA are bullshit. I love his game otherwise, but that stuff is boring basketball.
 

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Advantage plays would be great in basketball if the referees could enforce it. I don’t think they can, since it would require spotting the foul and the play context and reacting in time. Soccer and hockey take a little longer to generate scoring opportunities so it’s a different situation.
 

Tony C

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We're seeing a viable solution to this playing out in front of our eyes every time we watch a FIBA game. They are allowed to be far more physical than in the NBA without a call, but things that have to be called, for the game to be a sporting contest, are still reliably and (mostly) consistently called. So it's more physical because the line is set at a higher bar, but not so physical that it's out of control.

...
This seems to me correct. More physical/still clean/less whining doesn't seem to be such a complicated trick -- why can't the NBA do that if FIBA can?

I try not to get to old man yelling at the clouds and for the most part whining doesn't bug me unless it interferes with the player getting back into the play. They're hyper competitive guys in a sport in which the line between a foul/non-foul is often hazy; I'd probably bitch a lot to in their position (and I do to my television, in fact). But, for some reason, Luka's angelic, cherubic face constantly contorted into beatific horror at whatever non-call he's imagining aggravates me. If Luka was t'd up consistently like he was in that last game (or 2 games ago, I guess) it might lessen that, and if so it'd be a better viewing experience and it might improve his focus (though I hesitate to speculate on what makes a mega-star like him tick, so perhaps not -- what do I know?).
 

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I understand what you're saying but a lot of that is because the league has tried to take the overt physicality out of the game and both the offense and defenders are playing up to the line and frankly both sides are trying to goad the other side to cross it.

The NBA could cut down on some of the complaining but we also don't want the players to be automatons like the NFL.

I don't have any answers. Maybe the NBA should set up a whole new category for flopping/ref arguing so that any one who does a lot of it gets penalized. I don't know. I just don't the game to turn into a cage wrestling match again.
Sorry this is a ridiculous strawman. There are infinite places on the spectrum between Riley's Knicks and the baby fest of today. It is often forgotten (or not understood by young people) the peaks of the NBA surrounding that era. If you remember at all the NBA cleaned up handchecking in one year. You may recall this coinciding with Rodman focusing on rebounding since he was no longer a lockdown perimeter defender. A similar crackdown on carrying the ball and flopping could happen.

I have said this before but make faking contact a violation, finable suspendedable offence. Watch video. Guy pretends he got hit. Fine, escalating scale, leading to suspensions.
 

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Halftime USA 60-59. Might end up being the highest-scoring match of the tournament.

214: Lithuania 110 - USA 104
208: Mexico 108 - New Zealand 100
201: Canada 128 - Lebanon 73
199: Puerto Rico 102 - Dominican Republic 97
198: Australia 109 - Japan 89
 

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Theis outscoring and outrebounding everyone on team USA, so far.

Bring him home, Brad. No way he’s not twitching right now, fighting the urge of trading for him today.
 

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Once again USA can't rebound or defend. Germany's role players have been solid and Franz is putting on a clinic.
Ingram is out with a respiratory issue.